Not just another SHTF question!


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NewShooter78
January 21, 2003, 09:37 AM
Ok,
With all the hoopla over the Patriot Act, Homland Security, RKBA and other issues; do you think that we are heading for another "revolution" in this country? I don't mean on the immediate horizon, but in another generation maybe. It seems to me that not only are libertarian minded individuals concered with the continuing errosion of our rights, but also a lot of other people from across all walks of political affiliation.

So if we can't stand the people who are in power now and every other politician is just as hollow as the next, then aren't we required to rise up against the establishment and take back our country? Aren't we supposed to put down tryany when ever and where ever we find it. Would that make us "domestic terrorists" or would it make us true patriots? It seems to me that nothing is getting better, and we keep slipping away from what the founding fathers envisioned when they created the DoI, BoR, and the Constitution.

I don't consider myself a reactionary person, but everything must evolve eventually, and it seems like our politicians are just not worried about the common man/woman in this country. What do you all think on here. Am I off the reservation on this one?

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mpthole
January 21, 2003, 09:47 AM
Yes, I think there will be another war for freedom. No, I don't think you are off base at all.

Politically Incorrect
January 21, 2003, 09:58 AM
No, I don't think you're far off from it.

However, most people are scared of losing their livelihood. We're a self-preservation society than a freedom preservation society.

I don't feel that this will change any time soon. There are growing numbers who are questioning the government's role in people's lives, but there are also a growing number of those who feel that only government has the power to solve problems.

Just imagine all the new laws they'll think up to make more and more us into criminals. I'm just waiting for the day they ask us to register firearms.

80fl
January 21, 2003, 10:02 AM
We are in the midst of a very volatile period. A period that is causing both the left and right sides of the aisle to question the Washington power elite.
The most recent time in history where there was allot of division was, of course, during the Vietnam era.

The primary difference between then and now is the reaction coming from both sides.

During Vietnam it was primarily the left disputing the right, while the right was steadfastly defending its position.

The line between Republicans and Democrats is more muted now than it was in the '50's and '60's.

I can only hope that the Repubs will act with an arrogance that will expedite the divisive positions against one common enemy; namely the Washington elite which are most certainly comprised of both Repubs and Demos.

The interesting component, however, is just how both sides will choose to ally with their former enemies.

Will the Anarchists willingly fight alongside the disgruntled Conservatives?
Will the Libertarians join forces with the Liberals in this common struggle?

It seems both sides are fighting the Centrists.

I truly hope there will be an uprising in this country; otherwise we will slide into an Imperialistic/Socialistic society with neither the means nor the will to fight our way out.

Joe Demko
January 21, 2003, 10:12 AM
Doubt it. There are a few zealots on each side who would be willing to push things to the point of revolution/civil war. Most people just don't give a hoot beyond living their day-to-day comfortable lives. They don't mind the things that fire up the extremists at both ends. The extremists will cause a little trouble, get themselves branded as terrorists and find themselves hunted down. The upcoming totalitarian society is not the dreary, poverty stricken world described by Orwell. The "proles" (that's us) will be pacified with consumer goods and entertainment whilst the power elite enjoy their power. The thing is, most people will be happy with that. The proles in the former USSR probably would have been content enough to let things go on if the Sovs had been able to supply them with food, clothing and luxuries. They envied us the contents of our shopping centers, not our BOR. The same is true right now in PRC. The same is true in Europe.
Go to the mall. Sit down at Starbucks. Look around for the security cameras. Picture the whole world as being Starbucks. That is the future.

cordex
January 21, 2003, 10:15 AM
Welcome to the Fourth Turning.
If you put stock in the theory, anyway.

NewShooter78
January 21, 2003, 10:16 AM
I'm pretty sure that the military would probably splinter on something like this, but do you think that if an uprising occured, and we had the military split sides, would we be able to get it back in order and could we re-institute a functioning Legislative branch of gov't?

Gordon
January 21, 2003, 10:25 AM
Either 10 million of us march on Washington and demand a sensible return to a sane domestic/foriegn policy and more than a pitiful 50.2% VOTE for a right turn. Or the blood must flow down the street like water, our loved ones and friends must die, we face having nothing but a rifle in our hands and determination of spirit. Personally I'd like to get out the vote, while there are still ballots. Canvas your neighbor hoods for primary canidates who will stand up for freedom and dont feel a responsibility about feeding the world.:banghead:

bogie
January 21, 2003, 11:06 AM
If things keep going, I see something on the order of a breakdown in the urban/suburban areas, then a sort of urban vs. rural problem...

Imagine what would happen to the cities if the folks in the country quit sending supplies...

2dogs
January 21, 2003, 11:06 AM
NewShooter78

There does not seem to be cause for undue optimism.

A few years back when the MMM went to D.C., there was a pro-gun counter demonstration. Great folks like Susanna Gratia-Hupp and John Lott were speakers. I was really excited about what I thought was a great chance to show the world that there were many more pro than anti gun people. Also, hadn't been to a D.C. rally since oh, say 1969. So I made the 2 1/2 hour trip.

Anyway, the MMM rally turned out to be well under the "Million" and their only consolation was probably that they dwarfed the pro gun rally. I know that some unofficial counts put the pro gun rally at 5,000 but I would be surprised if there were more than 1,000. On a nice sunny day- our side could not muster more than a token amount of support.

OK, so maybe most people figure that a rally is no big deal and doesn't really do much, like signing petitions and writing letters to editors and congress/senate. But if the pro gun side are unwilling to make even these small sacrifices of time and effort I've got to wonder if fighting to the death for freedom is nothing but BS.:scrutiny:

WilderBill
January 21, 2003, 11:17 AM
I am hopeful that the Repub majority in both houses will bring some common sense and return to the freedoms envisioned by the founding fathers.
I am not at all confident this will happen.:(

TallPine
January 21, 2003, 11:37 AM
OK, so maybe most people figure that a rally is no big deal and doesn't really do much

Yeah, and add to that, that some of us actually have jobs and families and do something productive with our lives besides trying to take away freedoms from everybody else.

As Hank Williams, Sr. sang: "when you're mindin' your [own] business you'll be busy all the time"

And another thing, Northwest Airlines (nor any other airline) did not offer free air fare so we gunners could go to DC to march.

Mark Benningfield
January 21, 2003, 11:43 AM
Hello All.

As much as I would like for it to happen, I don't think it will, because there is not enough courage left in this country. There are not enough people brave enough to make or even risk the sacrifice required to oppose tyranny. Sure, most of us are, but we are decidedly in the minority. As I see it, realistically (and regrettably) what will happen is that conditions will deteriorate to the point that some few souls will actively resist. At that point, they will be demonized by the media and crushed by the JBT. Each year, the public school system graduates another class of brain-washed, illiterate, un-reasoning drones on whom the facts are wasted. We cannot show them the truth, because they are (for the most part) incapable of recognizing the truth.

Yeah, this is pretty cynical, and before anyone decides to bash me for being only negative, I am going to CounterAttack 2003 down in Dallas and I am trying to learn how to do something about it. It is just that, short of a major awakening in the American people's ability to percieve the truth, I don't honestly hold out much hope.

2dogs
January 21, 2003, 12:02 PM
did not offer free air fare so we gunners could go to DC to march

Hey, maybe if enough of us had shouted (whined) as loudly as MMM, they would have.;)

http://www.ussyorktown.com/yorktown/foundingfathers.htm

Our Lives, our Fortunes, and our Sacred Honor." Our Founding Fathers paid the price for the United States of America.
By Jeff Jacoby, Globe Columnist
Copyright 2000 Boston Globe



On July 2, 1776, the Continental Congress voted 12-0 -- New York abstained -- in favor of Richard Henry Lee's resolution "that these United Colonies are, and of right ought to be, free and independent States."

On July 4, the Declaration of Independence drafted by Thomas Jefferson -- heavily edited by Congress -- was adopted without dissent. On July 8, the Declaration was publicly proclaimed in Philadelphia. On July 15, Congress learned that the New York Legislature had decided to endorse the Declaration. On Aug. 2, a parchment copy was presented to the Congress for signature. Most of the 56 men who put their name to the document did so that day.

And then?

We tend to forget that to sign the Declaration of Independence was to commit an act of treason -- and the punishment for treason was death. To publicly accuse George III of "repeated injuries and usurpations," to announce that Americans were therefore "Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown," was a move fraught with danger -- so much so that the names of the signers were kept secret for six months

They were risking everything, and they knew it. That is the meaning of the Declaration's soaring last sentence:

"And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm Reliance on the Protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred Honor."

Most of the signers survived the war; several went on to illustrious careers.

Two of them became presidents of the United States, and among the others were future vice presidents, senators, and governors. But not all were so fortunate.

Nine of the 56 died during the Revolution, and never tasted American independence.

Five were captured by the British.

Eighteen had their homes -- great estates, some of them - looted or burnt by the enemy.

Some lost everything they owned.

Two were wounded in battle.

Two others were the fathers of sons killed or captured during the war.

"Our Lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred Honor." It was not just a rhetorical flourish.

We all recognize John Hancock's signature, but who ever notices the names beneath his? William Ellery, Thomas Nelson, Richard Stockton, Button Gwinnett, Francis Lewis -- to most of us, these are names without meaning.

But each represents a real human being, some of whom paid dearly "for the support of this Declaration" and American independence.

Lewis Morris of New York, for example, must have known when he signed the Declaration that he was signing away his fortune. Within weeks, the British ravaged his estate, destroyed his vast woodlands, butchered his cattle, and sent his family fleeing for their lives.

Another New Yorker, William Floyd, was also forced to flee when the British plundered his property. He and his family lived as refugees for seven years without income. The strain told on his wife; she died two years before the war ended.

Carter Braxton of Virginia, an aristocratic planter who had invested heavily in shipping, saw most of his vessels captured by the British navy. His estates were largely ruined, and by the end of his life he was a pauper.

The home of William Ellery, a Rhode Island delegate, was burned to the ground during the occupation of Newport.

Thomas Heyward Jr., Edward Rutledge, and Arthur Middleton, three members of the South Carolina delegation, all suffered the destruction or vandalizing of their homes at the hands of enemy troops. All three were captured when Charleston fell in 1780, and spent a year in a British prison.

"Our Lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred Honor."

Thomas Nelson Jr. of Virginia raised $2 million for the patriots' cause on his own personal credit. The government never reimbursed him, and repaying the loans wiped out his entire estate. During the battle of Yorktown, his house, which had been seized by the British, was occupied by General Cornwallis. Nelson quietly urged the gunners to fire on his own home. They did so, destroying it. He was never again a man of wealth. He died bankrupt and was buried in an unmarked grave.

Richard Stockton, a judge on New Jersey's supreme court, was betrayed by loyalist neighbors. He was dragged from his bed and thrown in prison, where he was brutally beaten and starved. His lands were devastated, his horses stolen, his library burnt. He was freed in 1777, but his health had so deteriorated that he died within five years. His family lived on charity for the rest of their lives.

In the British assault on New York, Francis Lewis's home and property were pillaged. His wife was captured and imprisoned; so harshly was she treated that she died soon after her release. Lewis spent the remainder of his days in relative poverty.

And then there was John Hart. The speaker of the New Jersey Assembly, he was forced to flee in the winter of 1776, at the age of 65, from his dying wife's bedside. While he hid in forests and caves, his home was demolished, his fields and mill laid waste, and his 13 children put to flight. When it was finally safe for him to return, he found his wife dead, his children missing, and his property decimated. He never saw any of his family again and died, a shattered man, in 1779.

The men who signed that piece of parchment in 1776 were the elite of their colonies. They were men of means and social standing, but for the sake of liberty, they pledged it all -- their lives, their fortunes, and their sacred honor. We are in their debt to this day.

NewShooter78
January 21, 2003, 12:25 PM
2dogs

That's the part of American history that they fail to teach in school rooms across this country. They never tell you about the "ordinary" men that sacrificed to make this country what it is. You only hear about the ones who got the glory in battle or office. I for one will admit that I knew nothing of those men before reading your post, yet I wish that I would have.

SodaPop
January 21, 2003, 12:38 PM
Its not at the point where I feel justified in taking a human life.


Things go in cycles and eventually government will have to be put down like a rabid animal. Human nature!!!

QuickDraw
January 21, 2003, 12:39 PM
2dogs,
Great reminder as I sit watching the rain fall.

QuickDraw

80fl
January 21, 2003, 12:43 PM
Excellent post 2 Dogs!

Omaha-BeenGlockin
January 21, 2003, 12:46 PM
You are a Patriot if you win and a Terrorist if you lose.

hso
January 21, 2003, 12:46 PM
Nope. We came closer to having the legitimate political process openly subverted with this last presidential election than we have the whole last century and there was no reasonable potential for a popular uprising to occur (keep in mind that regardless of who you supported you could make the argument that the other side almost "stole the election"). Not gonna happen in your or my lifetime because we haven't been ratcheted into a situation that warrants it.

2nd Amendment
January 21, 2003, 12:53 PM
Of course there will be a revolution. To think otherwise would be to believe that the US is an eternal construct. It's not. It's just another nation in a long and continuing line of them. The question is when and what will provoke it. As for it being caused and fought by extremists, again, of course. Extremists fought our 1st Revolution. The majority simply sat and watched, content to allow their fates be decided by those extremists. That's always been the case and it always will be.

When will it happen? I think that may well be decided over the next ten years. I believe it hinges on what the next administration does with the tools Bush & Co have given it in the Patriot Act and Homeland Sekurity.

Hmmm, another and better question is, what comes afterwards?

Pheonix
January 21, 2003, 01:01 PM
For 15 years I have been telling people that there will be another revolution ( I will be 30 this summer). I would still like this country be taken over by the people and taken away from the criminals who are bought by the highest bidder. Will it happen ..... no. If you try you are an "evil doer" and an "enemy of the people" Oh-well dont expect much to change, for the better anyways :fire: :fire:

Trisha
January 21, 2003, 01:32 PM
I think it'll be a silent one - if it happens at all; and I think it'll happen in just one more generation. By then, the majority of those under 30 will not be gun advocates/activists, those younger will parrot whatever they're told in public school and by television, and gun ownership will go the way of smoking.

You know why I think this way, so I won't repeat everything over again.

Trisha

crawfordew
January 21, 2003, 01:50 PM
I saw a sig line on a post in a news group a while back that summed it up pretty well:

We're at the awkward stage; It's too late to work within the system, but it's too early to shoot the bastards!

Gene :(

HS/LD
January 21, 2003, 02:29 PM
I don't think the "average gun owners" en masse will ever take up arms against the Federal Govt. However, most of the "average guys" that fought against the British and the King, never imagined that they would do that either...

We may, in time, see more of the Waco and Ruby Ridge type of encounters. Where a more and more militarized police force is used against "we the people".

Just as "modern warfare" has changed drastically in the last 10 years, so too, Law Enforcement at the Federal and local levels will change in the future.

The question for me is a little different.

When the BATF comes knocking to collect your once legal firearms... what will you do?

There is a tendency to a knee jerk FROM MY COLD DEAD HANDS answer to this. In actuality however, we have seen that very, very few people ever actually follow through with the "from my cold dead hands"...

There are many people in this country and others that were and still are outraged, disgusted and wild about the confiscation of their firearms. But how many actually fought to the bitter end to protect their freedom? When the miniscule few did and died, where was the social outrage demonstrated against the Government? When one man is beaten by the police in LA the whole city is set on fire. When we the people are shot and killed, and prevented from exercising our God given rights by the federal government everyday… nothing is done.

Apathy will be our undoing.

HS/LD

blades67
January 21, 2003, 03:14 PM
If you mount an insurection and are successful, you are a patriot. If you are unsuccessful you are a terrorist. The winner gets to write the history.

The English considered the Founding Fathers terrorists, we consider them patriots. It's all in your perspective.

The Plainsman
January 21, 2003, 03:44 PM
Well said. Look at http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/C?c108:./temp/~c108pilm5u

Congressman Holt from New Jersey is doing his damnedest to turn us all into felons and terrorists. :fire:

Airwolf
January 21, 2003, 04:59 PM
2nd Amendment's post sums it up for me. The tools have been created with the post 9/11 frenzy of laws placed on the books. I don't fear the current administration but it's easy to imagine the wholesale trampling of the Constitution and BoR with another Clinton-like presidency (or God forbid, the Hillary Beast makes it to the oval office).

Governments and nations are cyclic. Either the country will roll over and take it, postponing the next revolution for perhaps decades or government will misjudge the passivity of the people and push too hard, triggering SHTF.

I'm 45. I feel like that I'll see the shooting start before I'm gone.

If you're not angry/frustrated at what is happening in this country then you need to get your head out and and take a GOOD look around.

CAP
January 21, 2003, 10:10 PM
The next war on our soil will be between the haves and the have-nots. Those that have and have resource will fair far better than those that do not.

My .02.

CAP

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