[bushmaster1313]

Given everything that could go wrong, which American made 12 ga. pump is most likely to cycle and operate properly with 2 3/4 inch shells in a tense situation?

The things I am most concerned about are pumping to hard, too soft, too quick or too short, pumping while in an odd orientation to horizontal, and forgetting to release the trigger.

[Birdhunter1]

By an 870 Wingmaster and cycle about 3000 shells through it on a sporting clays or trap course to wear off the bluing on the slides... after this you can fire the gun and it will almost slide the action back without any pulling enough to eject a shell.

But new out of the box.. an 870 would be my top choice and if it weren't available I sure hope on of those Mossberg's I've badmouthed forever was nearby.

[Milkmaster]

For a NEW gun, the 870 our Mossberg is about the only USA choices on an economical pump gun. Recent quality problems with Remington would move me toward a used 870 for reliability or a Win 1300.

For a new USA pump gun, my choice would be to pay a little more and go with the Ithaca 37

[ArmedBear]

I'm not sure that any "name" American pump is failure-prone in any way. Sure, anything can fail, but I mean that they don't have glaring flaws or parts that are almost sure to break, or designs that are likely to jam.

Go to a gun shop with a huge selection of old guns. There's one around here with a pile of pump guns. Really. A pile. There's a gun rack under there, somewhere...:)

You'll find that there have been many different pumps over the years, and most of them are long gone.

The few that remain on the market are pretty damn good guns for the money. (The Model 12 is a great gun, but it wasn't cheap enough.)

[reckless carolinian]

Model 37. I think it speaks for itself.

[Hunterdad]

A 70's Wingmaster would be my choice

[thebigc]

my win 1300 does pretty good you dont even have to shuck it backwards most of the time it does it for you if i dont hold my hand on the pump and shoot it it ejects the shell on its own most of the time i did have one short strokeing incident with it though where i just assumed it went back far enough on its own and i chambered nothing

[oneounceload]

Model 37. I think it speaks for itself

So do I, buy probably not in the good light you seem to infer.....(at least the new ones).......Older ones are fine, new ones - not so much. They sent one to a friend for review (he's a gun writer). Didn't work - neither did the second or third. You would think that a company sending a gun to a writer for a review would send their best one off the line.............then again, maybe they DID.............

[GunsAreGood]

Well yes a Remington 870 or Wingmaster would serve you right as well as a Mossberg 500 or 590. I prefer the Remington's for reasons I am not going to get into in this thread. I am not taking a shot at Mossberg's quality it is just personal preference. With that said You said you are worried about pumping it to hard or to soft, to quick or to short. Well I would have to say its better long and hard than short and soft, no pun intended.:D As quick as you can pump it, it will function at that speed. The last thing you want is to pump the forend slow because you might cause a jam. I don't think you need to worry about pumping the forend to hard either unless you are trying to rip that thing off and then you still probably wont have a problem. You where referring to a tense situation and ability to operate the shotgun. Well if you own the gun and learn where the safety and release's are placed and how to manipulate it properly the gun will be adequate for you, but I suggest handling them first because proper placement of these controls can make the learning and operating a lot easier especially in a high stress situation.

[bushmaster1313]

A 70's Wingmaster would be my choice

This would have been my thought before reading the posts.

[Al LaVodka]

I would lean towards, and rely on, a Mossberg before others but the 870 is a very good gun too.
Al

[reckless carolinian]

Thank you, 1oz. I most assuredly meant the older 37s.

[oneounceload]

Thank you, 1oz. I most assuredly meant the older 37s.

Of all the guns that ave come and gone through my safe, my early 80's 37 I bought new back then is one of the few I regret letting go..........especially for us LH's!

[Youngster]

I find the Ithaca 37 and Winchester 1300 pump effort to be both smooth and mechanically positive feeling, the Winchester may take some getting used to however.

The 870 smooth and solid feeling but not the most positive, IMO it's just a bit easier to short stroke than the others.

The Mossberg to me feels loose and not all that smooth but quite positive.

[Fred Fuller]

[Louis Awerbuck voice] It's the Indian, not the arrow. [/Louis Awerbuck voice]

[ArmedBear]

It's the Indian, not the arrow.

Uh, if a pump gun jams despite being operated properly, it's the shooter's fault?

I think that would be the gun's fault.

[IllHunter]

It's not the gun that will bleed.

[ArmedBear]

True enough.

And it was the shooter who said, "But I can save 50 bucks buying this Chinese knockoff!"

[oletymer]

Now you did it Bear, with that comment Max100 will be along shortly. I agree though. Also the only new 37 that I have handled was flawless in operation and as smooth as my old one. I was so impressed I am going to buy one.

[Dave McCracken]

Modern pump guns made in the US and some other places are SO reliable it's crazy to compare them on that basis.

Buy any of the ones mentioned here and run lots of ammo through it.....

[Virginian]

A well broken in Remington 870 or a Mossberg either one are about as bulletproof as anything on the planet. Any quality issues such as a slightly rough chamber, found on probably less than 1% on the guns, but bemoaned by thousands, will be known and fixed by the time the gun is well broken in. Wingmasters have never had any problems anyway.

[Gord]

So basically this thread has nothing to do with hardware malfunction and everything to do with shooter malfunction as per the OP? Short-stroking and "forgetting to release the trigger" aren't the gun's fault, and rather than trying to figure out which gun is most likely to forgive bad technique OP should be focusing on learning good technique in the first place. :scrutiny:

[chevyforlife21]

mossberg 500

[Gord]

mossberg 500

Dontcha just love threads where people throw out a two-word "ooh, ooh, this one, this is the one I have!" reply which is absolutely worthless because it lacks even the basest of rationale for their proposed choice?

[chevyforlife21]

fine ninja, dead reliable, easiest safety location,best action release placement,easiest magazine to load. ive owned 5 different pumps this has been best

[MCgunner]

I'll trust my Mossberg to any 870 and when it comes time to reload, BIG TIME advantage if you're in a hurry. I've had the shell under the shell elevator jam more'n once on an 870. The shell elevator is up out of the way on the Mossberg. Now, you could call that a "user malfunction", but I defy the same user to duplicate it on a Mossberg.

BTW, after 20 years of pumpin' up ducks and geese, my Mossberg is slick as any 870 I've ever used.

[bushmaster1313]

So basically this thread has nothing to do with hardware malfunction and everything to do with shooter malfunction as per the OP? Short-stroking and "forgetting to release the trigger" aren't the gun's fault, and rather than trying to figure out which gun is most likely to forgive bad technique OP should be focusing on learning good technique in the first place.

Yes, developing good technique is an excellent idea. But in the same way an oversized golf club head or an oversized tennis racquet can be more forgiving, I was curious if the forum could recommend the USA made pump most likely not to malfunction because of an operator error in a tense situation.

[shockwave]

BTW, after 20 years of pumpin' up ducks and geese, my Mossberg is slick as any 870 I've ever used.

In 19 years I'll be able to confirm or rebut that statement, but so far I'm looking likely to confirm it. The more I fire the Mossberg, the better it gets. The faster I rack 'em, the more it likes it. Feels like a weapon you can trust with your life. Doesn't sound like you can go wrong with an Ithaca or 870 or Mossie - these are all solid guns.

[ArmedBear]

if the forum could recommend the USA made pump most likely not to malfunction because of an operator error in a tense situation.

I think the controls of a Mossberg are a little better than an 870, and I have an 870. A common operator error is having the safety set to a different position than one thinks. The Mossberg's safety is visible to the operator, and a tang safety is easier to operate for a number of reasons.

However, if you're really used to something, it can be second nature. Practice mounting the shotgun and taking it off-safe in your living room regularly, along with dry-firing, and it becomes a natural movement, regardless of where the safety is.

I think the reason that there's really no gun that is "more forgiving" is that a pump has no gearing system or mechanical advantage. They all take about the same force, and they all have to be slid 3 inches back and forth. If you short-shuck a Maverick, you'll short-shuck a high-grade Model 12 just the same. If you can operate a BPS reliably, you can operate a Mossberg just the same.

[Fred Fuller]

If you short-shuck a Maverick, you'll short-shuck a high-grade Model 12 just the same. If you can operate a BPS reliably, you can operate a Mossberg just the same.

In other words, you're saying "It's the Indian, not the arrow," right? :D

It's just not possible to separate the operator from the firearm. Any mechanically sound example of a modern American made pumpgun is going to be as reliable as any other to a vanishingly small statistical point. For years we referred to the Big Four here- Ithaca, Mossberg, Remington, Winchester. Any good example of either of them should do just fine. I prefer Remington 870s, others like Mossbergs just as much. Unfortunately Winchester has gone the way of all companies, Ithaca comes and goes, Browning's BPS still gets ignored by a lot of people, and someone elses favorite either from years gone by (the Winchester Model 12 comes to mind) or their favorite import gets left out too. Or they'd rather have a semiauto, or a double barrel. Can't please everybody, and it's differences of opinions that make horse races.

There is no "best" pumpgun. It's a false construct. There are millions of perfectly good pumpguns out there, and it isn't that hard to find one or to afford to buy one. The trick is to become the best shotgunner you can be, and not worry overmuch about the hardware.

Relax and enjoy the process of becoming one with the gun...

fwiw,

lpl

[ArmedBear]

In other words, you're saying "It's the Indian, not the arrow," right?

With firearms, it is the equipment that determines just how well one can possibly shoot. The shooter determines how poorly one can possibly shoot.:D

[Fred Fuller]

With firearms, it is the equipment that determines just how well one can possibly shoot.

So it is possible to buy skill in a cardboard box after all?

lpl

[WVMountainBoy]

I've had no problems with either my old wingmaster or my new express, I have no idea how many rounds through the the wingmaster but I have about 60 rds through it with no issue and the express has 500+ with no issues. (I've had the express longer, only had the wingmaster a month) I use winchester super x 00 buck in both. No failures and the express has done some rapid drills. That being said, plenty of my friends are dyed in the wool Mossy fans and I've only seen one ever malfunction in hundreds of thousands of rounds fired...the safety became loose and would go into safe after being fired. It was remedied at the bench in about a half hours worth of cussing. Two of my family members purchased JIC's and did the mandatory 200 round test with 00 buck with no failures...those firearms were then assigned permenant truck duty :)

[ArmedBear]

So it is possible to buy skill in a cardboard box after all?


No. The upper performance limit is determined by the capabilities of the equipment. The lower performance limit is determined by the capabilities of the user.:)

[JohnBT]

"There is no "best" pumpgun"

I guess I'll skip mentioning the Model 12 Winchester then. :)

[ArmedBear]

Winchester Model 12, the Pilsner Urquell of shotguns.

[mljdeckard]

I've shot a bajillion rounds through 79s, 870s, Model 12s mostly, and a lot through other guns. If I've ever short-stroked one, I can't remember. I think it's because the old marine who taught me said something to the effect of; "You won't hurt that gun. Rack it like you mean it, there's never any reason to handle a shotgun otherwise."

[Gord]

bushmaster1313 and chevyforlife21, my apologies are extended for the tone of my previous posts in this thread - yesterday was "one of those days" and I got a little grumpier than I shoulda.

If you care to do a search and read up, you'll find no shortage of back-and-forth on whether the Remington 870 or Mossberg 500 is a better shotgun, and like most other "what is best?" questions, the only answer is - the one that works best for you. I haven't been that impressed with the build quality on the 500s I've messed with, and I can't stand the Mossberg forend rattle/play, so I run an 870 - but I love the tang safety on the Mossbergs, and, in theory, I think the pump release is in a better spot. In practice, I do a lot better with the 870 just because it's what I'm used to and what I grew up using.

As AB mentioned, all pumps are fundamentally about the same in function, and it's doubtful that you're going to get any sort of advantage out of any given model. What you can do is accessorize as you feel necessary - the 870, for example, has jumbo safeties, high-visibility followers, all sorts of forend lengths/shapes and so forth available to correct any deficiencies you may perceive in the stock product.

Other than that, the best way to ensure the smooth, reliable operation of your shotgun is to put a bunch of rounds through it, wear it in and practice the smooth, reliable operation of you. :)

[reckless carolinian]

Forget to release the trigger on a 37? No disconnector means ready or not, here's the follow up shot. Results may vary.

[MCgunner]

Forget to release the trigger on a 37? No disconnector means ready or not, here's the follow up shot. Results may vary.

Some people actually LIKE that feature. :D

[bushmaster1313]

Forget to release the trigger on a 37? No disconnector means ready or not, here's the follow up shot. Results may vary.


Not with all the 37's!

The early ones were all slamfire. Keep the trigger pulled and the next round would fire as soon as it was chambered (and hopefully not before)

Later civilian models did not slam fire, and if the trigger was held the next round would not fire when chambered and when you let go the trigger and pulled it it still would not fire.

Later Police models had a feature which would not slam fire, but if you released and then pulled the trigger it would fire.

[Deltaboy]

870!! Wingmaster!!!!!!!!!!!!

[reckless carolinian]

Thank you, bushmaster. Again, I stand corrected. My 37 is a 1960. I was unaware that all 37s were not created equally. In the future, any reference I make to the Model 37 will be applicable to early 37s only.

[Youngster]

I think the reason that there's really no gun that is "more forgiving" is that a pump has no gearing system or mechanical advantage. They all take about the same force, and they all have to be slid 3 inches back and forth. If you short-shuck a Maverick, you'll short-shuck a high-grade Model 12 just the same. If you can operate a BPS reliably, you can operate a Mossberg just the same.

I disagree, these pumps may be all the same in mechanical principle but they differ enough in mechanical parameters to make for different end results at times.

I agree that the operator is the most important factor but for whatever reason, I still say that some designs just seem to be easier to short stroke *given less than optimal technique or conditions* than others.

[straitnate14]

Ithaca M37, pumps so smooth and fast you dont even know you pumped it Oh and on my two 1971 37's they both slam fire, it's about usless but it's fun once and awhile

[Southpaw 02]

Reckless carolinian, Your M37 will slam fire. It is not something I would consider doing on a regular basis Yes, I have done it with mine a couple of times.

SP

[MCgunner]

Yes, the 37 is very smooth. I'd like to pick one up, but they sell for more at the gun shows if you find one. I'm not sure what I'd use it for, but I used to shoot one when I was a kid, borrowed it from my uncle for duck and goose hunting. It was an awesome slick pump. The Browning is better, tang safety, but it's heavier and doesn't handle as well as the old 37 IMHO if you are upland bird or dove hunting. The Browning is no liability iin the duck marsh, though.

Yeah, I have my preferences due to ergos for the Mossberg and Browning as I shoot southpaw and appreciate the tang safety even if I didn't. Add to that the fact that when you reload, you have an open shot to the magazine, no way to accidently jam the gun. I like that....a lot. But, as far as one working better than the other, other than the shell under the shell elevator jam that irritated me with the Wingmaster I had, they all function well. If you really think Remington is more than a shell if its former self (I don't) and drink the 870 koolade, go for it, it's STILL not a bad gun. I just swore off 'em 30 years ago for the Mossberg as the ergos alone make it a better gun IMHO.

[ArmedBear]

I disagree, these pumps may be all the same in mechanical principle but they differ enough in mechanical parameters to make for different end results at times.

Whether you disagree or not, they all need to be pumped the same distance with similar force to eject a hull and load a new shell.

The mechanical parameters that are different are the designs of the lifters, and the shapes and sizes of foreends. You're right, the results can be different, especially WRT a jam, how easy it is to clear, etc. but obviously nobody cares about jams, since they seem to think the 870 is the best gun.

[MCgunner]

Ah, my Winchester pumps itself. :D

[Mr. T]

Winchester 1300, Remington 870 Wingmaster, Mossberg 500 & 835 will all do the job for you. I listed mine in order of preference and yes I own all three and have hunted hard with all three.

[tactikel]

I only have experience with Remingtons and Mossbergs. I have well over 1000 rounds thru each of my pumps, and can say they all are more reliable than me. You really are the weakest link. Buy a 870, 500,( or a Nova), and you wont go wrong. Shoot it at least 500 rounds (at clays, birds, targets) before you trust you life to it.

[Hangingrock]

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc277/lowflash/M590/IMG_1612.jpg
Brownells safety button replacement for OEM button
http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc277/lowflash/M590/IMG_1613.jpg
Shell carrier saddle
http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc277/lowflash/M590/IMG_1614.jpg
Luminous front sight for low light applications

One modification not shown is a stainless steel magazine follower.

My preference for multiple users would be the Mossberg 590 series because of it ambidextrous feature being the tang mounted safety and the slide release lever location.

[shockwave]

One modification not shown is a stainless steel magazine follower.

I see that Vang has this available for the Mossie for $22. Is this the part you push new shells against when loading? What's the thinking behind this modification? Difficulty of install?

[Hangingrock]

Reply to: Shockwave

The follower I used is Brownells STK# 12Ga 080-000-167AC Stainless Steel @ $19.95 (follower is the cup shaped piece interface between crimped end of the shell and the magazine spring).

I thought the OEM follower over the long haul would not be as durable. I’ve also done this on my Remington 870.

It’s an easy change out refer to you’re Mossberg manual diagram and barrel removal procedures.

R/S:)

[General Geoff]

After a few thousand shells of clay shooting, I can say the mossberg 590 I have is boringly reliable, with one caveat: It does not tolerate a user who is too soft with the pump. Too often I've had a friend "gently" cycle the action, and either not lock it fully into battery, or fail to eject a spent shell from the receiver. These guns like forceful cycling. Don't be afraid to manhandle that pump, and shove it back and forth with gusto. This will guarantee feeding and extraction reliability.

[shockwave]

I thought the OEM follower over the long haul would not be as durable. I’ve also done this on my Remington 870.

Thanks, Hangingrock. I'm still new to shotguns and learning my way around the 500. I've had the top barrel off and changing out the follower should be a piece of cake. Also, thanks for the Brownell recommendation. I've switched out the stock safety for the Vang metal version and want to upgrade to higher quality parts as I go along - so this fits with the program.

[Daveboone]

Mossberg, Winchester 1300, Rem. 870, Ithaca 37, Browning BPs, have owned and used all, still have the BPS, 870 and Ithaca. Without going into detail, I never liked the Mossy, and kept it a very short time: feeding problems, just felt kiddish. 870 and BPS and Win. 1300 are built to last several lifetimes. All pumps are engineered to be aggressively racked, but IMO the Winchester has the fastest and slickest action. Its rotary bolt is almost an assist in the cycling ( I think it was actually part of the advertising at one point) so it cycles the quickest and smoothest, my belief it is the least likely to short cycle or have a feeding problem when fired related to this. If cycled manually, dunno, but I never had problem. The ithaca can mis feed if it isnt upright- the cartridge will fall, possibly mis-angled in the action, not being controlled by the carrier. I sold my Winchester despite shooting it better than any other gun of mine, because I thought I had to have an 870. Something to do with the aluminum Win. reciever as opposed to the milled steel Rem. reciever. I have been trying to get it back since. The BPS is a fine gun, but extra money is paid for the gloss and finish without getting much more back in return.

[glazer1972]

870..

[Youngster]

The ithaca can mis feed if it isnt upright- the cartridge will fall, possibly mis-angled in the action, not being controlled by the carrier.

I can't get mine to do that, could it be a timing issue?

[pink_talon]

My current is the HK Ben. M1S90 which I love. I had a Stevens slug gun which was prone to stripping a 2mm sliver of brass from low base shells

[winchester '97]

I would have to go with a mossberg, especially one of the models the military used. Though my 1st choice would have to be one of the repro 1897s with 20 inch barrels. most reliable pump shotgun period in my book, wouldnt have stayed in service from the first world war to vietnam if it jammed alot. mine if from 1907 and it has never jammed since i got it, and the norinco copies seem to live up to the reputation of the original.