Kirst Konverter cylinder for a 2nd gen Walker?


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SixShootinSam
March 8, 2010, 11:26 PM
Now that I have the conversion cylinder fever, after getting one for my 58 remmie, I'm itching to get one for my Walker.

However there is one catch, it's a 2nd Gen Colt. I've read that the 2nd gen colts are really made by Uberti, and just finished by Colt here in the U.S., so I'm really wondering if a Kirst konverter would work (a Uberti one).

I'd like to ask someone with a digital caliper, if they can measure the diameter of their Uberti Walker cylinder pin, and of the Cylinder itself (BP cylinder).

Thanks a bunch in advance.

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mykeal
March 9, 2010, 01:55 PM
First of all, the information you have read about 2nd Generation Colts is incorrect. 2nd Generation Colts were manufactured in the US by Colts Manufacturing, Inc. Some of the raw castings (notice: RAW CASTINGS) were provided by Uberti. Other parts were made by Colt employees, and the cast parts were machined by Colt employees on Colt machines using Colt processes. The guns were completely assembled, timed and tested by Colt employees using Colt procedures. It's time this myth was put to death.

Although I believe these numbers will be of little use, here are the measurements from my Uberti Walker and my ASM Walker:

Uberti cylinder diameter: 1.873"
Uberti cylinder length: 2.565"
Uberti cylinder arbor diameter: 0.571"

ASM cylinder diameter: 1.868"
ASM cylinder length: 2.575"
ASM cylinder arbor diameter: 0.575"

SixShootinSam
March 10, 2010, 02:13 AM
Oh, of all the people to help me, it just had to be you Mykeal :D
Thanks for the dimensions. And why would the numbers be of little use? if the dimensions are off, I would not even bother researching it any further.
It so happens that they are very close though.

Second of all, as some (or most apparently) parts were produced by Uberti, I dont see why it's a myth. They had a hand in it.

Anyway, thanks again, looking forward to another correction.

mykeal
March 10, 2010, 09:13 AM
as some (or most apparently) parts were produced by Uberti,
I thought I was quite clear on this. It's exactly the opposite. NO parts were produced by Uberti. They supplied ONLY rough castings of a few parts which were then machined (ie, finished, which means produced) by Colt's Manufacturing.

Uberti's 'having a hand in it' is a far cry from the utterly mythical, 'the 2nd gen colts are really made by Uberti'.

madcratebuilder
March 10, 2010, 10:46 AM
Second of all, as some (or most apparently) parts were produced by Uberti, I dont see why it's a myth. They had a hand in it.

The only parts that Uberti supplied for the 2nd gen Walker were raw barrels and cylinders. These raw parts were machined and finished at Colt. The remaining parts were manufactured in North America.

Uberti may of had a little finger in it, but hardly a hand.

I think you well find the Uberti conversion cylinder well be about .010 short. You could machine the lug for fit but then the original cylinder would not fit with out machining. Probably cheaper to buy a used Uberti Walker and convert it.

SixShootinSam
March 10, 2010, 11:03 AM
"I thought I was quite clear on this."

Hmm, with all the lobbying for compassion in another thread, may I suggest some humility for yourself mr Mykeal? Your snarky answers in most threads aren't very 'high road'. You may think otherwise, but you are not the sole authority on subjects here, so answers like "I thought I was quite clear on this" just don't belong here. Just because you say something is a certain way, does not mean it is! :) Kinda like "dont believe everything you read in a newspaper" kinda thing.
But I must digress, before this turns into another personal whaa whaa thread.

Have a fine day sir Mykeal.


And yes, madcratebuilder, you're probably right, should never have gotten a 2nd gen in the first place, parts are much harder to find, even from coltparts.com, not to mention very pricey.

mykeal
March 10, 2010, 01:39 PM
Just because you say something is a certain way, does not mean it is!
I have no problem with that. You're certainly free to publish evidence to the contrary at any time.

arcticap
March 10, 2010, 04:08 PM
The only parts that Uberti supplied for the 2nd gen Walker were raw barrels and cylinders. These raw parts were machined and finished at Colt.

They supplied ONLY rough castings of a few parts which were then machined (ie, finished, which means produced) by Colt's Manufacturing.

madcratebuilder & mykeal,

Now I'm confused. According to the following article hardly any guns were actually built and finished by Colt except for some that were diverted to the Colt Custom Shop in the white for engraving and embellishment.
So the above statements seem to be mistaken or a cover up or a misrepresentation about which company and whose workers actually built most all of the 2nd Generation Colts. They certainly weren't made at Colt or by Colt employees but were shipped to Colt already finished.
So how does the above misinformation about who built them ever get started?

The following excerpts are from a Bluebook PDF article on their website without a current security certificate but I never hesitate to open the file up despite the warnings.
The truth about exactly who built mostly all of these Colt guns really needs to be told. ;)



Page 26:

https://www.bluebookinc.com/Info/PDF/POWDER/MBPHistoryOfColtBlack.pdf



Under the old "subcontractor" agreement to produce
2nd Generation percussion models, Imperato's only
responsibilities were to manufacture the revolvers to
Colt's strict specifications and then ship the finished
product to Colt's facilities in Hartford. Colt's then performed
final inspection and shipped the revolvers to
their distributors.
https://www.bluebookinc.com/Info/PDF/POWDER/MBPHistoryOfColtBlack.pdf




Page 24:

https://www.bluebookinc.com/Info/PDF/POWDER/MBPHistoryOfColtBlack.pdf

"The people that had built the guns for Colt worked for
me," explains Imperato. "I brought gunsmiths over from
Italy, Germany, England, and Czechoslovakia, and put
them up in apartments in New Jersey near Iver Johnson. I
started with around 20 men and ended thinning the ranks
down to 12 highly skilled craftsmen who were earning
$39,000 a year by the end of production. That was a good
income in the early 1980s. They set up hand assembly in
a production manner, working in teams. It was incredible.
Afterward, a couple of them went back to Italy and set up
factories of their own. I was happy with what we did. We
had a couple of really good years and I think we made a
contribution to the history of Colt."
Without Imperato's craftsmen, Iver Johnson was
unable to build the guns. And after one failed attempt to
have them produced in Italy by Armi San Marco (which
had been instrumental in the development of the first
Walker reproductions), they gave up on the idea.
However, Iver Johnson did send their remaining
2nd Generation parts to Armi San Marco, which
produced a brief run of black powder models bearing
Colt markings and the New York barrel
address. Since they were not authorized by Colt,
nor packaged in the 2nd Generation Colt black
box, they are not regarded as authentic Colt pistols.
Additionally, the counterfeit versions produced
by Armi San Marco exhibited a quality of fit
and finish that was inferior to that of true Colt
2nd Generation percussion models – a peculiar footnote
to the end of the 2nd Generation.
THE COLT CUSSTOM SHOP
While Imperato was turning out black powder Colts
by the thousands, a handful were being diverted to the
Colt Custom Shop for use in a limited series of factory
engraved editions; the guns that would become the most
rare and valuable of the 2nd Generation.
Recalls Lou Imperato, "We would ship the guns to
the custom shop in the white and they would be completed
by factory engravers, or on occasion, sent to
American Master Engravers, Inc., (including A.A.
White, John Adams, Sr., Andrew Bourbon, and Denise
Therion), or one of the other leading artisans of the day
like Howard Dove."
Within the Colt custom shop series of engraved 2nd
Generation Colt percussion pistols, there are a number of
variations, some produced in sets from 20 to 50, but most
limited to 10, and a few to single examples.

https://www.bluebookinc.com/Info/PDF/POWDER/MBPHistoryOfColtBlack.pdf

SixShootinSam
March 10, 2010, 07:55 PM
Good find arcticap!, interesting read as well. Looks like some people are misinformed ;).

mykeal
March 10, 2010, 08:56 PM
Ok, now, after reading the above article, what do you think is the name of the company that actually built the 2nd Generation Colts?

And what is the name of the company that actually builds the car model named Focus?

arcticap
March 10, 2010, 09:26 PM
It looks like they were built under contract by Iver Johnson and/or Lou Emperato and workers the he hired and paid the wages to. But the parts certainly were not machined by Colt or at Colt as claimed.

What's there to be evasive about?
As nice as they are they're still only Colt clones.

And what is the name of the company that actually builds the car model named Focus?

Even though cars and guns aren't the same, now maybe you'll tell us who owns the plant and pays the wages of the workers who build the Ford Focus? :rolleyes:

Just because some foreign auto companies like Sasuki have made cars that were rebadged with American nameplates doesn't mean that folks are really supposed to believe that they were actually made in Detroit. :D

mykeal
March 10, 2010, 09:45 PM
Let me help you out. The name of the company was Colt's Manufacturing, Inc. Imperato and Johnson worked for Colt's Manufacturing, Inc. as subcontractors.

Per Dennis Adler and John Allen's "Bluebook of Modern Black Powder Arms":

COLTīS MANUFACTURING COMPANY, INC.
Current firearms manufacturer with headquarters located in West Hartford, CT.
Coltīs Manufacturing Company, Inc. is the previous manufacturer of 2nd Generation Colt percussion revolvers located in Hartford, CT. Colt used subcontractors to supply rough castings for the manufacture of these black powder pistols. Throughout the production years 1971-1982, these rough castings were produced in Italy and the reproductions were completed in the United States. Initially, Val Forgett and Navy Arms provided these parts/components during 1971-73. Lou Imperato supplied these parts from 1974 to 1976. In both instances, these revolvers were assembled and finished in Coltīs facilities in Connecticut. Finally, from 1978 to 1982, Colt subcontracted both parts procurement and final production to Lou Imperato and Iver Johnson Arms in Middlesex, NJ. Colt percussion revolvers produced by Iver Johnson had frames, center pins, nipples, and screws manufactured in the United States. In all instances, these revolvers were manufactured in accordance with Coltīs strict specifications and quality control. Additionally, Coltīs performed final inspection for all models. All percussion models manufactured from 1971 through 1982, either by Colt or its subcontractor, are regarded as authentic Colt pistols and not Italian replicas.

Colt's Manufacturing Co., Inc. claims they made the guns. They used subcontractors and issued licenses in doing so. Such techniques are an every day part of modern business. It surprises me to see that described as misrepresentation, but if that's how you wish to describe it, I must plead guilty.

Even given that misrepresentation, I can't see how one comes to the conclusion that Uberti actually made the guns for Colt, which is the claim that I initially wanted to refute, and still believe is incorrect. And it's simply that: incorrect. I don't see it as a misrepresentation. Or am I wrong there too?

SixShootinSam
March 10, 2010, 10:21 PM
Such semantics, seriously I dont think too many people actually give a ****.
I asked a simple question about diameters, and now it's derailed to a nitpicking about who made what thanks to....Mykeal again. The barrel and cylinder were either cast in Italy, the rest in the USA, or both fully assembled in Italy and inspected in the USA.

I guess we'll never know, and frankly, if there needs to be such childishness over small details, I dont even care to know. Whatever happened to the nice forum we used to have here? Seems there are a few miserable folks here who have been on their period for a while now.
My question has been answered.
Thanks for the info arcticap, at least you can phrase it without being condescending.

Ciao.

arcticap
March 10, 2010, 10:34 PM
Colt's Manufacturing Co., Inc. claims they made the guns

Where does Colt or anyone else say that?

Not one word in the quote states that anything was actually made by Colt as previously claimed.
The words that were previously used stated "finished, machined, finished i.e. produced, at Colt and by Colt".

These guns were made for Colt but not by Colt or at Colt which are your words.

Nothing was machined and very little was actually produced by Colt besides embellishment and the finishing of some Colt Custom Shop guns.
Let's not promulgate that somehow behind the scenes the guns were produced by Colt and Colt employees when it's documented that they weren't. They were merely inspected by Colt in finished form while being built by a 3rd party, independent subcontractor.
That means that Colt could only chose to reject a finished gun and were not in control of how it was made by the independent subcontractor.

According to the IRS:

5. If you have the right to control or direct not only what is to be done, but also how it is to be done, then your workers are most likely employees.

6. If you can direct or control only the result of the work done -- and not the means and methods of accomplishing the result -- then your workers are probably independent contractors.

http://www.irs.gov/newsroom/article/0,,id=173423,00.html

And what is the name of the company that actually builds the car model named Focus?

Please be so kind and tell us all who assembles the Ford Focus and machines and builds its parts and components? :D

mykeal
March 11, 2010, 12:23 AM
Ford Motor Company, Dearborn, MI. At least in my opinion.

I guess, and tell me if I'm wrong, that under your definition, it's Standard and Cooper in Gaylord, Michigan.

I can't believe you're not aware that Colt's Manufacturing Co. Inc. will provide a letter authenticating a 2nd Generation Colt as a Colt product. That's been stated in Adler's books and on this forum dozens of times. So where is it stated that Colt claims they made the guns? In their authentication letters.

In addition, there's the statement from Adler:
Coltīs Manufacturing Company, Inc. is the previous manufacturer of 2nd Generation Colt percussion revolvers located in Hartford, CT.

Is Adler part of this misrepresentation?

You, and I, actually have no details on what Colt's Manufacturing controlled in terms of their subcontracts with Forgett, Johnson and Imperato. We do know from Adler's book that:
In all instances, these revolvers were manufactured in accordance with Coltīs strict specifications and quality control.
That's a whole lot more than just approving the final product. It implies the existence of Detailed Product Design Specifications and Production Specifications. I can't state conclusively whether there were such documents, but it's certain that Colt's Manufacturing Co. had a great deal more than just final inspection approval.

I'm left wondering why you chose to challenge my statements about the manufacturer of 2nd Generation Colts but not those of the OP when he claimed they were made by Uberti? Do you believe the guns were made by Uberti? How do you reconcile the fact that there was no prime contractor/subcontractor relationship between Forgett and Uberti, but there was between Forgett and Colt's Manufacturing Co.?

I have no issue with my remarks being considered as lacking credibility; after all, this is the internet and you don't know me from the corner pretzel vendor. But I don't understand why you find Adler unbelievable. His works on Colt firearms are considered definitive by most of the community. Are there some data that shows he's incorrect that I'm not aware of?

madcratebuilder
March 11, 2010, 09:24 AM
All this does not change the fact that Uberti only supplied raw barrels and cylinders.

From what I can gather from documented and undocumented articles is Val supplied the Colt custom shop with parts for the C series, Lou subcontracted with Colt for the F series.

Colt did the color case hardening for both series, controlled all manufacturing specifications, did finial inspections and shipped the final product.

If you compare a C or F series 2nd gen to it's Uberti counterpart, side by side, you well see a difference, both in dimensions and quality.

fineredmist
March 11, 2010, 09:52 AM
According to my neighbor who was a manufacturing engineer at Colt in the early 1970's, Uberti supplied the major components (frame, barrel and lever, hammer and front and rear grip sections) and the small internal machined parts and springs were locally produced. The parts were final machined in the Colt plant in Hartford. The blueing and the case hardening were done in Hartford useing the same equipment that was used on the original firearms. The guns were assembled by a small group of dedicated workers.
The blueing tanks and the case hardening furnace were the originals and produced the beautiful blue and great case colors of the early guns. Colt spent a great deal of time and money in an effort to move this equipment to their new West Hartford plant. The tanks and furnace were in poor condition and literally came apart when workers attempted to dismantle them. Colt again spent a lot of time and money trying to duplicate the finishes they obtained from the old tanks and furnace but were unsuccessful.

madcratebuilder
March 12, 2010, 08:53 AM
fineredmist, thanks for that information. That's pretty much what I have been able to put together from different print interviews of Forgett and Imperato.

Your neighbor should write his memoirs about his time at Colt. There is little documented information about what went on inside the building.

fineredmist
March 12, 2010, 09:18 AM
Madcrate,
Colt went so far as having the tank material and the retort fire brick analyized so the could dulilicate them. The results showed that the chemical composition was complex and that only time could "cure" the tanks and the fire brick. You might say the process is similiar to "seasoning" a cast iron skellet.

sundance44s
March 12, 2010, 10:02 AM
The Iver Johnson part of these Colts ...turns me off ..I`ve owned several of the Iver Johnson revolvers ..and can say they indeed build truck guns ...junk ..you can keep under the seat of your truck and not hurt a good revolver .
In this neck of the woods Iver Johnsons sell for 50 bucks on a good day .

madcratebuilder
March 13, 2010, 08:19 AM
The Iver Johnson part of these Colts ...turns me off ..I`ve owned several of the Iver Johnson revolvers ..and can say they indeed build truck guns ...junk ..you can keep under the seat of your truck and not hurt a good revolver .
In this neck of the woods Iver Johnsons sell for 50 bucks on a good day .
Iver Johnson didn't have anything to do with either the 2nd or 3rd gen Colts.

Lou Imperato owned IJ and also owned Colt Blackpowder Arms Co.

FoMoCo made the Lincoln and the Pinto. GM made the Chevette and the Cadillac.

arcticap
March 13, 2010, 03:42 PM
Iver Johnson didn't have anything to do with either the 2nd or 3rd gen Colts.

There still seems to be a contradiction about who made the frames and all of the other parts and where they were finished right in this very thread.

finedredmist states that his neighbor indicated that they originated from Uberti, while Imperato clearly stated in the article that they were made at Iver Johnson. The same is said about the other little parts, case color and bluing.

"They were all hand fitted. We had the barrels, cylinders,
and backstraps cast in Italy (as Forgett had done),
but we finished them off in house. We made the frames,
the center pins, nipples, all of the screws, springs, and
built every "F" Series gun at Iver Johnson Arms.

Imperato also indicates that the case color and blue finish wasn't done in Hartford but at Iver Johnson:

We even used the old style color case hardening method
with the charcoal and bone meal, and Colt's exclusive Colt Blue
Finish for the "F" Series. They turned out pretty good.
In fact, I think our finishes were actually better than
Colt's single actions being done in Hartford," says
Imperato.

https://www.bluebookinc.com/Info/PDF/POWDER/MBPHistoryOfColtBlack.pdf


So madcratebuilder, what do you mean that Iver Johnson didn't have "anything" to do with the Colts?
It's seems that for the most part that they were built at Iver Johnson.
That's nothing to be ashamed about just because some folks don't like Iver Johnson's reputation or their other products.
Iver Johnson also made receivers for their civilian version of the M-1 Carbine and they're of notably high quality. Just because Iver Johnson didn't manufacture a lot of high cost models doesn't mean that they weren't capable of it, or that the Colts weren't made there or by Imperato's workers for the most part.

Is there really any doubt about the accuracy of Imperato's statements?

mykeal
March 13, 2010, 06:25 PM
I don't believe there's any contradiction at all. I think it's just a difference between the 2nd and 3rd Generation guns. Colt's Manufacturing built the 2nd Generation Guns and Colt Blackpowder Inc. built the 3rd Generation guns. That's apparent from the dates referenced by Imperato in his narrative.

Colt's Manufacturing Co. claims the 2nd Generation guns as their own product and will so state in writing, while they do not do so for 3rd Generation guns (there is some dispute about that last point - there are people who claim to have 3rd Generation authentication letters and there are other people who claim to have been turned down by Colt's Manufacturing when they requested one).

madcratebuilder
March 14, 2010, 11:21 AM
Is there really any doubt about the accuracy of Imperato's statements?

Not at all, your quote of Lou is in reference to the 3rd gen F series, not the 2nd gen F series.


"They were all hand fitted. We had the barrels, cylinders,
and backstraps cast in Italy (as Forgett had done),
but we finished them off in house. We made the frames,
the center pins, nipples, all of the screws, springs, and
built every "F" Series gun at Iver Johnson Arms.


Colt Blackpowder Arms Co (3rd gen) was based out of the Iver Johnson plant, I believe that is what he (Lou) is referring to.


there are people who claim to have 3rd Generation authentication letters and there are other people who claim to have been turned down by Colt's Manufacturing when they requested one).

I have read the same. I have advertising material for the 3rd gens that claim you can letter the revolvers. I have not attempted to do this so I can not say one way or the other.

sundance44s
March 14, 2010, 02:10 PM
The Blue Book of black powder arms does say Colt contracted Iver Johnson to make them for a period of 4 years , 1979 to 82 I beleive ...I was thinking it was a longer period than that ...my mistake .

arcticap
March 15, 2010, 07:01 AM
Not at all, your quote of Lou is in reference to the 3rd gen F series, not the 2nd gen F series.

Imperato's quote contained in my first post is quite clear.

Under the old "subcontractor" agreement to produce
2nd Generation percussion models, Imperato's only
responsibilities were to manufacture the revolvers to
Colt's strict specifications and then ship the finished
product to Colt's facilities in Hartford. Colt's then performed
final inspection and shipped the revolvers to
their distributors.

This statement is clearly referring to the 2nd Generation guns that were being shipped to Hartford from the Iver Johnson plant already finished.

mykeal
March 15, 2010, 08:06 AM
It's clearly wrong. It's contradicted by all the other evidence and by Imperato himself in the very next paragraph you quoted:
"The people that had built the guns for Colt worked for
me," explains Imperato. "I brought gunsmiths over from
Italy, Germany, England, and Czechoslovakia, and put
them up in apartments in New Jersey near Iver Johnson. I
started with around 20 men and ended thinning the ranks
down to 12 highly skilled craftsmen who were earning
$39,000 a year by the end of production. That was a good
income in the early 1980s.

arcticap
March 15, 2010, 01:39 PM
Of course the 2nd Generation guns were being produced into the 1980's

On page 30 of the article all of the 2nd Generation guns are listed with their production dates which clearly indicate that they were being made well into the 1980's which further verifies the accuracy of Imperato's statements.

And on page 20:

The Colt black powder 2nd Generation reprise of the 1860 Army remained in production until 1982, and was offered in a variety of models.

https://www.bluebookinc.com/Info/PDF/POWDER/MBPHistoryOfColtBlack.pdf

madcratebuilder
March 16, 2010, 12:37 PM
If you read Dennis Russell's book, "Percussion Colt Revolvers-The Second Generation" you well learn much about how the parts moved back and forth between Colt Blackpowder Arms Co. located at the IJ plant in Middlesex) and Colt Manufacturing in Hartford.

Starting in 1977 Imperato subcontracted with Colt on the "F" series 2nd gens, much but not all work was performed at Colt Blackpowder Arms Co. CBAC was located in the Iver Johnson plant in Middlesex. Production ended in early 1982.

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