One in the chamber or no?


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dendad
March 9, 2010, 12:22 AM
When you were new to CCW did you carry with one in the chamber right off? I'm betting most start with the tube empty to get used to the feel...

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bhk
March 9, 2010, 12:25 AM
I had been shooting for 35+ years when we were first allowed CCW permits. I felt entirely comfortable with a loaded chamber right away.

archigos
March 9, 2010, 12:28 AM
I carried with one in the chamber from the beginning. Having a loaded gun that is not ready to operate introduces you to unnecessary hazards without giving you any benefit from carrying.
I introduced my father to carrying about a year after I started. For the first couple months he had his permit, he actually carried his gun in the manner he normally would (DA/SA decocked w/ no safety) but without any ammunition on him until he was comfortable enough that he knew it wasn't going to "go off".

Its certainly worth getting used to operating your CCW, as well as holstering and unholstering the weapon, until you are very competent with its operation and it feels natural. However, carrying with a loaded magazine without a chambered round serves you next to no purpose.

NavyLCDR
March 9, 2010, 12:43 AM
I'm betting most start with the tube empty to get used to the feel...

Not I. My personal safety was too important to me.

Hardtarget
March 9, 2010, 12:51 AM
I have never carried without a chambered round. Doesn't seem right to me to have the chamber empty.

Mark

12131
March 9, 2010, 12:53 AM
One in the chamber or no???
Yes, always on my carry gun.

KAK
March 9, 2010, 12:54 AM
IMO and I am always right. :D If you are afraid to carry with one chambered you should carry a revolver instead. <---- Nothing wrong with revolvers, just make it a 357!!!

NavyLCDR
March 9, 2010, 12:56 AM
I'm betting most start with the tube empty to get used to the feel...

Also, is that a bet you want to put on the table with a criminal? I'm betting his/her gun has a round in the chamber!

ilikepancakes
March 9, 2010, 12:56 AM
The vast majority of people (as far as I've gathered from various forums) carry with one chambered.

The important thing is to make sure whatever you're doing, do it safely.

tangomike706
March 9, 2010, 12:57 AM
Locked and loaded . always .

sonick808
March 9, 2010, 12:59 AM
After familiarizing myself with the safety features of my gun, I've always felt 100% safe carrying w/round chambered at all times. Research your weapon's features and how to carry it safely. If it can't be, switch.

LouisCipher777
March 9, 2010, 01:05 AM
I have always carried guns with one in the chamber ever since I was a kid. You just get used to doing it that way. I like my guns to be like my computers, a "point-and-click" interface.

I always get a good laugh from these TV shows and movies where everyone always racks the slide before they get serious.

NavyLCDR
March 9, 2010, 01:24 AM
I like my guns to be like my computers, a "point-and-click" interface.

Personally I don't like it when my gun goes click. :eek:

Arkansas Paul
March 9, 2010, 01:38 AM
I think KAK makes a valid point. A good DA revolver would be ideal for those who don't feel comfortable with one in the pipe.

possum
March 9, 2010, 01:55 AM
welcome to thr.

no i have always carried with a round in the chamber and to me that is the only way to carry.

have you ever heard of the Tueller Drill? try doing it with your gun under concealment with a round chambered, that is hard enough. try doing it with it under concealment and with no round in the chamber, if you can pull it off in time i would be suprised.

personally i believe if you don't feel safe with a loaded chamber in your ccw you probally should feel safe with out a loaded chamber, and maybe you should re evaluate your personal defense.

sonick808
March 9, 2010, 02:51 AM
don't give up, keep reading and practicing at the range. Read to learn the gun's operating system and features so you know how they work inside and out; practice so your shots are reflexive if you need to shoot. Consider seriously taking defensive pistol classes.

Let me ask this: how long have you been shooting prior to getting your carry license ?

19-3Ben
March 9, 2010, 07:43 AM
For the first few hours i did carry, around the house, with an empty tube.
But by the time I left my house with the gun, I was comfortable with one in the chamber and was carrying my gun with +1.

AJChenMPH
March 9, 2010, 08:58 AM
I felt entirely comfortable with a loaded chamber right away.
+1

The only time I ever carried without one in the pipe was when I was having some problems with the hammer block -- the gun otherwise functioned fine, but I was afraid of a ND until I could get it fixed (and I didn't have another handgun at the time). So I carried it unchambered until (1) I bought another gun and (2) I got it fixed.

earlthegoat2
March 9, 2010, 09:17 AM
When I was first introduced to shooting it was centered around hunting. My dad taught me to put one in the chamber and engage the safety. He said as long as there is no malfunction the gun will not fire as long as the safety is engaged. Just keep it pointed in a safe direction all the time. The round in the chamber was faster to deploy on a game animal and quieter to do so as well. You never knew when a deer was going to run in on you or jump out of some brush so it was good to keep your firearm ready to strike.

Fast forward a few years and I bought my first pistol, a 1911. I felt fine with a round chambered and the safety on. Even though I saw the hammer back I knew it was the same as when my shotgun had been chamber loaded and ready while I was hunting but instead of the hammer being covered it was exposed. No big deal.

My sister is a police officer and I once while watching her get her weapon ready to carry off duty she chambered a round a and holstered it. I saw nothing wrong with this and figured it was good to be ready.

Fast forward a few more years and while reading some internet forums I run across someone talking about whether or not to carry a gun with one in the chamber and I was shocked that anyone would not carry a round chambered. I figured if one did not have the nerve to carry a loaded gun ready to go then they did not have the nerve to even have a gun.

In the end though I now understand the concerns for each of us has a different situation and a different level of familiarity with firearms.

EddieNFL
March 9, 2010, 09:53 AM
Arnold carried condition three, so that must be the best way, but I'm obstinate so I carry C1.

nitetrane98
March 9, 2010, 10:00 AM
Trying not to sound too mean, but if you're uncomfortable carrying a loaded weapon maybe you're not quite ready to carry.

Lv4snobrdg
March 9, 2010, 10:11 AM
Yes, always. Cocked, locked and ready to rock. You don't want to be the guy that goes down due to lack of shooting back.

I agree with nitetrain, if you are nervous to have "one in the pipe" please carefully consider your reasons for wanting to carry. Carry is not about cool, its about social responsibility.

drf
March 9, 2010, 10:17 AM
To feel more comfortable carrying a weapon with one in the chamber try a DA/SA gun with a hard to pull DA trigger with a decocker and no safety. drf

RonBernert
March 9, 2010, 10:37 AM
One in the chamber. What if you don't have time to work the slide? What if your other hand is injured?

Know your gun, be comfortable carrying it loaded and ready, know your safeties, but most of all, KNOW YOUR LIMITATIONS!!!! :D

Lv4snobrdg
March 9, 2010, 10:39 AM
KNOW YOUR LIMITATIONS!!!!Clint Eastwood Magnum Force

dendad
March 9, 2010, 01:30 PM
I'm on board with all above. I posed the question because I know someone who uses this as a revolver justification, (easier to get used to).That's probably another thread!

saturno_v
March 9, 2010, 02:06 PM
However between carrying a loaded revolver and a loaded pistol with one in the chamber there is not difference in handling safety margin whatsoever....(unless we are talking about a Glock or similar design)

I carry my DA/SA pistol always with one in the chamber, decocked and safety off.

My P-11 pocket piece is always with one in the pipe as well.

SwampWolf
March 9, 2010, 04:03 PM
However between carrying a loaded revolver and a loaded pistol with one in the chamber there is not difference in handling safety margin whatsoever....

That's exactly what I was about to say. If you are carrying a pistol for self-protection, it should be ready to go at a moment's notice-not "a wait 'til I chamber a round and then I'm ready to go" extra moment.

Gunfighter123
March 9, 2010, 04:16 PM
I agree with Hardtarget and most others;
I have never carried without a chambered round. Doesn't seem right to me to have the chamber empty.

smokin hot AR10
March 9, 2010, 04:24 PM
I have always carried a round in the chamber since I received my CCW. I even top off the magazine. I keep one in the chamber and 13 rounds in the magazine with my Glock 23. I like round numbers.:D

EddieNFL
March 9, 2010, 04:28 PM
Doesn't seem right to me to have the chamber empty.

I think lots of guys have the empty chamber ingrained by the military. Having witnessed my share of buffoonery by GIs, I can't say it's a bad thing in that setting.

CajunBass
March 9, 2010, 04:29 PM
Nope. I'd carried loaded guns hunting most of my life. Didn't bother me a bit.

shockwave
March 9, 2010, 04:35 PM
My revolvers are fully loaded. My shotgun has an empty chamber, full magazine tube, safety off. While I don't mind the handguns being ready to go, I'm not quite ready yet to have a loaded shotgun laying around. Takes me about 1 second to rack one in.

All of this is my way of saying, "owner's decision." As the firearm owner, you decide for yourself whether you want the guns loaded or unloaded, round chambered or not, safety on or not. You weigh the pros and cons and then you take full responsibility for the choices you make. People on the Internet can't do that for you, and some of these chuckleheads here are out of line, saying stuff like, "If you won't keep one in the chamber, maybe you shouldn't own a gun" and so on.

Not everybody has to do the same thing in the same way. It's OK to offer advice, but I wouldn't tell somebody what to do in this particular situation.

SalchaketJoe
March 9, 2010, 06:29 PM
I remember coming across my dads Colt Defender lying on the cook table in hunting camp and asking him if there was a round in the chamber. "Wouldnt be much good if there wasnt."

I figure if I need it I am going to need it like 5 minutes ago. The less I have to manipulate under stress the better.

FMF
March 9, 2010, 06:29 PM
It's always ripe with one in the pipe :D

The Lone Haranguer
March 9, 2010, 06:34 PM
When you were new to CCW did you carry with one in the chamber right off?
Right from the get-go. In fact, I never even considered chamber-empty. It is pointless to carry a gun if it is going to be effectively unloaded.

NMGonzo
March 9, 2010, 06:38 PM
Trying not to sound too mean, but if you're uncomfortable carrying a loaded weapon maybe you're not quite ready to carry.
Probably true in my opinion.

One has to be very familiar with the carry at home before hitting the cruel world.

NMGonzo
March 9, 2010, 06:39 PM
I think lots of guys have the empty chamber ingrained by the military. Having witnessed my share of buffoonery by GIs, I can't say it's a bad thing in that setting.

And I have carried that way too while in the military.

However, we were familiar with our weapons to have them at the ready outside base.

LRS_Ranger
March 9, 2010, 07:37 PM
Carrying with an empty chamber is like going to the store and leaving your wallet in the car, IMO.. then again, I have been shooting for a long time and I'm not "gun shy" at all..

WRGADog
March 9, 2010, 08:26 PM
one in the chamber. If you handle the gun safely there is no reason not to carry with a round in the chamber.

FIVETWOSEVEN
March 9, 2010, 08:36 PM
If your carrying a Type 94 than you should never under any circumstance chamber a round. Any guns nowadays, you should be fine with a decent holster.

luigi
March 9, 2010, 08:42 PM
A sampling


http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=501916&highlight=Chamber
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=475298&highlight=Chamber
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=400096&highlight=Chamber+carry
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=446372&highlight=Chamber+carry
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=211725&highlight=Chamber+carry
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=211725&highlight=Chamber+carry

There really is nothing new under the sun

Mr.Davis
March 9, 2010, 10:20 PM
When you were new to CCW did you carry with one in the chamber right off? I'm betting most start with the tube empty to get used to the feel...
The first few times I carried chamber empty.

Within a week, I felt naked doing so and began loading +1. Since I trust my holster and I'm very careful with my trigger finger, I now leave one in the pipe always.

The Bushmaster
March 9, 2010, 10:30 PM
Condition one. From day one until I die...

wrs840
March 9, 2010, 10:32 PM
Always chambered. Failing to do so is an understandable noobie misconception about what renders a gun "safe". You'll get over it, or you should change your carry piece. That said, I'm fine with decocker or striker-fired autos, but I can't carry a 1911 or BHP concealed because I can't get comfortable carrying concealed cocked and locked, the way those particular guns were designed to be carried, but that's my hang-up, and my shortcoming, not the gun's.

Les

angel1216
March 9, 2010, 10:38 PM
here we go again!!! i have my popcorn ready!!! i don't have this problem cause i have one in all my 5 pipes!

Impureclient
March 9, 2010, 10:39 PM
You guys carry one in the chamber and inside the confines of a holster? :eek:
I carry in my front pocket with my hand gripping the gun. There is hardly time to lift up a shirt/coat and unholster a gun when the SHTF.
It's the only way otherwise you might as well leave your gun at home.
If you don't feel safe enough to carry outside a holster you probably need more training. /end sarcasm

oldfool
March 10, 2010, 12:41 AM
I always wear my tinfoil hat (my uCCW protection against unexpected lightning bolt strikes), fully loaded, cocked, and locked. Because "it" can happen anywhere, anytime, to anybody... and when "it" does happen, should John Wesley Lightning throw down on me, there simply will not be time to lock-n-load my hat

If I wasn't cocked and locked, I might just as well not wear a hat at all

Noobs who do not wear their tinfoil hat fully loaded cocked and locked are simply afraid of their own hat.

Based my my long experience as a cyberspace warrior, having survived many lightning bolt firefights in even the most harmless looking internet forums, I know how little time there is to react when "it" happens.

but constant awareness of your environment is also critical...
when entering an internet chat room, always look around, discreetly observe all present, and decide who to foil first, if it suddenly goes bad
(especially beware the poster whose hat you cannot see, they might be carrying a BUH, be alert, be ready to foil them first)

PS
I also carry high capacity reloads for my tinfoil hat (a large roll of Reynolds Wrap discreetly tucked IWB), and a deep concealment BUH.. back-up-hat
(foil underwear)
because you just never know when you might get unexpectedly caught in an all out SHTB (sht-butt) lightning storm, and need to repel multiple adversaries intent on unilateral strike woobie wars

but do be aware of tinfoil hat AD/NDs
and always treat every tinfoil hat as though it were loaded, whether it really is or not

SwampWolf
March 10, 2010, 02:06 AM
I see now why you always wear your tinfoil hat, oldfool.

MHBushmaster
March 10, 2010, 02:43 PM
The loudest sound you will ever hear is a click when you are expecting a BANG!

Carry one in the chamber and top off the mag.;)

bikerbill
March 10, 2010, 03:16 PM
loaded chamber from day one ... forget having time to rack the slide; if you're confronted by evil, you need to be able to deal with it right then, not after you've fumbled with the slide and the BG has brained you with a bat ...

Ala Dan
March 10, 2010, 08:26 PM
Head screwed on straight, brain in gear = round in chamber; as time may not permit you too rack the slide in a life or death situation~! ;) :D

FYI: The BG certainly won't give you time to reconsider your options~! :uhoh: :eek:

KevinR
March 10, 2010, 09:20 PM
When you are concerned about a life or death situation seconds count big time. I carry with a round in chamber all the time. However I personally will not buy a pistol that is single action and carry one in the tube. I personally dont think it is advisable.

9teenEleven
March 10, 2010, 09:26 PM
I completely understand why people carry with one in the chamber. I carry a Glock, and simply cannot bring myself to do it. I will never feel comfortable around a loaded gun, and that is a good thing.

gmh1013
March 10, 2010, 09:41 PM
I keep a 380 bersa in the glove box but empty chamber...to afraid I (or somebody else) may it up with it loaded.
My carry pistol is Smith Model 36 1 7/8 blued or in winter with a coat SP101 snub
Winchester 110 grain silvertips in both right now.

HOWARD J
March 10, 2010, 09:46 PM
I carry a Glock 26
one in the tube....
Mag topped off............
In a hoster..........
But I have this cute little piece of plastic pushed behind the trigger & as you draw the weapon you push it & it flicks away to allow the trigger to be pulled.
It makes an old man feel safe as he is jamming the weapon into the hoster--it prevents
"Glock Foot"..................:D:D:D:D

wild cat mccane
March 10, 2010, 10:00 PM
First one to say no?

If I get robbed I am giving the money. I am not a gun fighter.
If I get physically attacked I am very fit. I wouldn't hold a chance of 'a reasonable person's' fear for life. Also, I am not drawing a gun on someone immediately for hitting me.

The reason I carry a gun is for other people and when I see it will be needed. If someone out smarts me, I am not drawing the gun.

Personal preference :) Your answer is as good as mine.

LeontheProfessional
March 10, 2010, 10:13 PM
when I first started carrying the chamber was always empty only to be loaded when ever walking through a bad part of town. Now the only time it is ever unloaded is between magazine changes at the range.

1SOW
March 10, 2010, 11:04 PM
Not trying to start something here, but If your not going to carry it ready to shoot, leave it in the car or at home.

A reasonable amount of training and practice will make you 'safe' to carry one in the barrel. It's likely more dangerous to have to fumble with the gun than to KNOW it's ready to shoot.

beezy25
March 10, 2010, 11:08 PM
this is a great topic. i just got my first gun and dont really know the best way for me to keep it at home. i was thinking about buying a safe for it, but it seems like that's timely in certain situations. let's say i keep it in my droor next to me, do i keep it loaded and cocked? especially since there's no saftety mechanism besides trigger/grip safety (press). any suggestions?

wild cat mccane
March 10, 2010, 11:27 PM
"train train train train train" used to say its okay with one in the pipe.

Can't someone train to rack a slide once out of pocket?

Yes, I agree, more steps. No doubt. Since this is a completely subjective issue (anyone have a data set saying load vs unloaded gun protection?) "training" can also be used to justify one not loaded.

I keep it loaded and none in the pipe.

No reason to get antsy though :)

shockwave
March 10, 2010, 11:38 PM
This is why revolvers are still legendary in shooting culture. No safeties, no slides, no racking, no magazine drops, no "stove piping," no "limp wristing," no feed ramps no nothing except hand on grip, finger on trigger and fire.

In time, I suspect most auto shooters will eventually come to prefer a revolver for mission critical applications, because simpler is better.

LeontheProfessional
March 10, 2010, 11:48 PM
Keep in mind that the Israelis don't chamber a round until they are ready to go.

NinjaFeint
March 10, 2010, 11:55 PM
Two things:

I always carry one in the chamber
I wouldn't carry if I didn't feel comfortable with one in the chamber

Also, if you don't want to carry one in the chamber I see no issue but if you aren't comfortable with it that way, you shouldn't carry.

9teenEleven
March 11, 2010, 12:00 AM
Not trying to start something here, but If your not going to carry it ready to shoot, leave it in the car or at home.

A reasonable amount of training and practice will make you 'safe' to carry one in the barrel. It's likely more dangerous to have to fumble with the gun than to KNOW it's ready to shoot.

I have no shortage of shooting time. In fact, every time I shoot, I practice racking as part of the draw process. I can get 5 rounds on target faster than the guys I shoot with who start with one in the pipe, and every bit as accurate. It really does become second nature. I understand the whole what if one arm becomes disabled argument, but the chances of that are, I think, slim. Even if they are not too slim, the chances of getting your finger into that trigger guard by accident are very real too. Nobody plans on doing it, but it can happen.

wrs840
March 11, 2010, 01:29 AM
Can't someone train to rack a slide once out of pocket?

Sure, but chambering the first round is statistically one of the higher-occurrence scenarios for malfunction in a semi-auto pistol under non-stress circumstances. Add stress and a need for speed "right now", and the probability for error/malfunction spikes up to a level unacceptable for SD use.

Les

Frank Ettin
March 11, 2010, 01:42 AM
....In fact, every time I shoot, I practice racking as part of the draw process. I can get 5 rounds on target faster than the guys I shoot with who start with one in the pipe, and every bit as accurate. It really does become second nature. I understand the whole what if one arm becomes disabled argument, but the chances of that are, I think, slim....Racking the slide on the draw stroke still takes two hands, and I'm not going to count on having both hands available in an emergency. There are all kinds of reasons why your other hand might be otherwise occupied, not just from being disabled.

In any case, carry how you wish, but there's a reason the major schools and trainers teach carrying with a round in the chamber.

...Even if they are not too slim, the chances of getting your finger into that trigger guard by accident are very real too....If with practice you feel you can rack the slide quickly and reliably on the draw stroke, with practice you'll be able to reliably keep your finger off the trigger and out of the trigger guard when it doesn't belong there. USPSA and IDPA competitors learn trigger finger discipline very well, because they are shooting under the watchful eye of a range officer and will get sent home promptly upon any lapse of trigger finger discipline.

aleeb
March 11, 2010, 02:45 AM
For Glock owners who are worried about carrying in condition 1, here's a tip: Holster your gun before you attach it to your belt/pants. Then, at the end of the day, remove the entire holster, gun and all, from your pants and stow it under your bed/lock it up.

Using this system, you should never unholster/reholster your gun unless you're in an emergency situation or at the range practicing (and being VERY cautious, mind you). If you want to do work on your gun, unholster it, work on it, then remove the holster from your belt/pants and reholster the gun outside of your pants.

It might be a hassle, but it makes the most dangerous part of owning a Glock much safer. Reholstering is when you're most likely to experience an ND. Using this system, you can even keep the gun pointed in a safe direction (ie away from your thigh) while holstering the gun.

REAPER4206969
March 11, 2010, 03:12 AM
I will never feel comfortable around a loaded gun, and that is a good thing.
If I get robbed I am giving the money. I am not a gun fighter.
If I get physically attacked I am very fit. I wouldn't hold a chance of 'a reasonable person's' fear for life. Also, I am not drawing a gun on someone immediately for hitting me.

The reason I carry a gun is for other people and when I see it will be needed. If someone out smarts me, I am not drawing the gun.
WOW just WOW!

REAPER4206969
March 11, 2010, 03:18 AM
This is why revolvers are still legendary in shooting culture.
Revolver reliability is a myth. Revolvers are far less reliable in austere conditions then auto-loaders. Also, reloading a revolver is much harder than an auto.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbkoutGwA78

REAPER4206969
March 11, 2010, 03:21 AM
Keep in mind that the Israelis don't chamber a round until they are ready to go.
Another myth. High level Israelis carry chambered like every other competent Gunman.

Lv4snobrdg
March 11, 2010, 07:14 AM
carry chambered like every other competent GunmanAnd that would be "nuff said."

Impureclient
March 11, 2010, 09:27 AM
Racking the slide on the draw stroke still takes two hands, and I'm not going to count on having both hands available in an emergency.

That's why they should invent a gun that uses no hands. It would be attached to your head and when you look in a direction a laser beam shows where the gun aims. Seriously, the only one hand argument is getting old.

I have to wonder why when it comes to this subject in here, it is allowed to be low road all of a sudden with no moderators stepping in. Those who carry chambered call those who don't not ready to carry and incompetent, not safe, not socially responsible, pointless to carry unchambered, and noobie in this post alone thus far. The line of attack the argument and not the arguer is being stepped on in here.
If you carry chambered and in a holster, when you get a chance, time your time from reaching for the gun, unconcealment of the holstered gun from behind whatever clothing conceals it, unholstering gun, drawing it on target and squeezing the trigger. Then try putting in in your pocket unchambered while gripping the handle and time that the reaction time from that point which includes racking the slide. Not everybody wants to hold their gun in their front pocket and not everyone wants to carry chambered. We won't have to go down the path of saying how slow a concealed/holstered draw is because you've already made your mind up that to carry that way and even if it shaves a few tenths of a second off your reaction times, you probably aren't changing now. Even if those few tenths off your reaction time mean your and your loved one's lives.

Now that last sentence kid of hits home doesn't it? Remember the "only one hand" argument?

Everybody who is on here and carries concealed with an empty chamber is always chastised for their decisions. What makes everybody think they have the right to demean those who carry unchambered? There is no such thing as a AD/ND with an unchambered gun. I like the fact that I have never killed anybody with my gun or shot a hole through a wall accidentally. I intend to keep it that way and if it means carrying unchambered(unless I enter a situation/place that is too unsafe, which I stay away from as it is)then I am OK with that. If my gun is involved in a AD/ND by malfunction, some object grabbing the trigger, my finger or another's, Mr. Ayoob isn't going to call me up and take blame for my carrying methods if it goes bad. Nobody has to live with my decision to carry chambered and have the gun gun off and cause a death/injury. It's easy to armchair quarterback and say chambered is the only way. Instead of jumping on the keyboard and ridiculing others on the way of their decision on carry, try understanding there is a person on the other side of the screen who cares about their own life and others just like you. If that person has made the decision to carry a tool that will kill and deems it necessary to carry unchambered, then respect that they made the decision to at least protect themselves and others around them if the need arises by carrying that gun.

REAPER4206969
March 11, 2010, 09:39 AM
it is allowed to be low road all of a sudden with no moderators stepping in. Those who carry chambered call those who don't not ready to carry and incompetent, not safe, not socially responsible, pointless to carry unchambered, and noobie in this post alone thus far.
The truth is not low road. This is a tech forum. If people ask a question they will be told the proper way to do things.
Everybody who is on here and carries concealed with an empty chamber is always chastised for their decisions. What makes everybody think they have the right to demean those who carry unchambered?
You are not being chastised for carrying incorrectly; you are being strongly encouraged to carry properly as choosing to continue with your current method could cost you and others their lives.

Lv4snobrdg
March 11, 2010, 09:49 AM
this isn't a matter of right or wrong. It doesn't say on on CCW that you must carry with one in the pipe or yer doin it wrong.

this is a matter of opinion. People also get chastised for their choice of side arm. Some get chastised for only carrying one piece.

OP wants your opinion. Its your choice to qualify, quantify and explain your opinion.

While I keep one in the pipe I have pretty extensive training with my firearm and the utmost confidence in its function and capability. Someone new to this world might not have that confidence. Regardless the weapon is likely designed to be portable with one in the chamber.

Still a matter of opinion and confidence/trust. I would assume that for most you, like me, opinions and trust are developed over time with appropriate experience in the matter. I certainly wouldn't take anyone here's "word for it" I don't know any of you and on the internet we are all anonymous and experts.

figment
March 11, 2010, 09:49 AM
I wish BGs always carried without one in the chamber:rolleyes:
lets make it a new law for them:scrutiny:

Lv4snobrdg
March 11, 2010, 10:17 AM
wild cat mccane said:

If I get robbed I am giving the money. I am not a gun fighter.
If I get physically attacked I am very fit. I wouldn't hold a chance of 'a reasonable person's' fear for life. Also, I am not drawing a gun on someone immediately for hitting me.

The reason I carry a gun is for other people and when I see it will be needed. If someone out smarts me, I am not drawing the gun.

Personal preference Your answer is as good as mine.Uhh, stumped here.

Well I will assume the law in your neck of America allows you to draw in defense of others. Mine doesn't. This is labeled as "vigilante" work and the Police don't like other peeps attempting to do their job for them.

The rules in my state do allow me to drill a guy trying to whoop my ass, differs from being slapped once or twice, since there is no way for me to accurately ascertain that the beating will stop short of my death of that the beating will end with me and my family be untouched.

However I can not shoot a mugger who asks me for my wallet and doesn't show me a lethal weapon. I am likely to say no whether I am strapped or not since I am reasonably certain that I can get past a knife with out serious injury to myself. If he brandishes a gun, and I have mine, then I will stall, make my move for my wallet and produce my pistol. Squeeze, call 911 and start locking down my side of story while I wait for the whoop whoops.

Lethal force can be administered with a pencil, a fist and a gun.

REAPER4206969
March 11, 2010, 10:20 AM
Mine doesn't.
What state?
since I am reasonably certain that I can get past a knife with out serious injury to myself.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0fPL4f3Eqc

Impureclient
March 11, 2010, 10:22 AM
I wish BGs carried with holstered guns. Any more time involved in their draw is good for us good guys right?
That and no back up guns for them, no spare mags and no autoloaders. I couldn't imagine leaving home with anything less than 3 guns on me.
They should also be encouraged to carry unsafe guns, like revolvers with only 5 or 6 shots. You practically are begging to be killed by going outgunned like that.
If they also carried 1911s that would be nice also. Apparently they have many parts that fail due to being customized by individuals who aren't gunsmiths.
While we are at it, they also should carry Glocks because they explode.

figment
March 11, 2010, 10:40 AM
^^^
:rotfl::D

Frank Ettin
March 11, 2010, 11:11 AM
...Seriously, the only one hand argument is getting old....Perhaps to you. But after all, it's called a handgun, not a hands gun.

Why carry a gun at all, if not for a genuine emergency? And you have no way to predict how an emergency will occur.

Carry how you like, but there's a reason the major schools and trainers teach carrying with a round in the chamber.

...If you carry chambered and in a holster, when you get a chance, time your time from reaching for the gun, unconcealment of the holstered gun from behind whatever clothing conceals it, unholstering gun, drawing it on target and squeezing the trigger. ....I have, both in training and in practice. My time, from an audible signal to the last of two rounds on target, center of mass, at 7 yards, runs about 1.3 to 1.6 seconds.

...Everybody who is on here and carries concealed with an empty chamber is always chastised for their decisions. What makes everybody think they have the right to demean those who carry unchambered? There is no such thing as a AD/ND with an unchambered gun. I like the fact that I have never killed anybody with my gun or shot a hole through a wall accidentally. I intend to keep it that way and if it means carrying unchambered(unless I enter a situation/place that is too unsafe, which I stay away from as it is)then I am OK with that....[1] What gives you the right to chastise and demean those who carry with a round chambered?

[2] There is no such thing as an AD/ND unless one does something wrong. An AD/ND is within your control.

[3] I've never killed anyone or shot a hole in a wall accidentally. I intend to keep it that way; and if that means getting training and practicing regularly to learn and develop good habits and maintain a decent level of proficiency, that's what I'll do.

[4] We can stay out of places we think are unsafe, but bad things do happen in places people consider safe. You can't always know when what you think is a safe place becomes unsafe.

...If that person has made the decision to carry a tool that will kill and deems it necessary to carry unchambered, then respect that they made the decision...I can respect your decision, but if you ask my opinion, I will give it.

Lv4snobrdg
March 11, 2010, 11:14 AM
Reap: LOL

California

And, uh, I'ma world class sprinter, you can out run a knife!!!

nice fishing though

REAPER4206969
March 11, 2010, 11:16 AM
you can out run a knife!!!
You'll be bleeding out before you even see it.

Lv4snobrdg
March 11, 2010, 11:20 AM
I didn't expect you take my answers seriously. But glad that you did one more laugh for me.

Thanks LV out

REAPER4206969
March 11, 2010, 11:34 AM
Just something for everyone to think about. Most people underestimate the seriousness of a knife attack.

shockwave
March 11, 2010, 11:41 AM
since I am reasonably certain that I can get past a knife with out serious injury to myself.

Hoo boy. I know a fair number of martial arts teachers who say, "run as fast as you can" if a knife comes out. They don't even pretend you can survive an encounter with a blade without getting messed up pretty bad. Either run or hope you can get your gun into play in time. Bladed weapons should not be disrespected.

Lv4snobrdg
March 11, 2010, 12:02 PM
thanks, really, scar in my right armpit, I hear you. Truly I do, I do not make light of it, I do realize that this is the internet and brass balls are abound, but I earned mine.

RonBernert
March 11, 2010, 12:27 PM
That's why they should invent a gun that uses no hands. It would be attached to your head and when you look in a direction a laser beam shows where the gun aims. Seriously, the only one hand argument is getting old.

I have to wonder why when it comes to this subject in here, it is allowed to be low road all of a sudden with no moderators stepping in. Those who carry chambered call those who don't not ready to carry and incompetent, not safe, not socially responsible, pointless to carry unchambered, and noobie in this post alone thus far. The line of attack the argument and not the arguer is being stepped on in here.
If you carry chambered and in a holster, when you get a chance, time your time from reaching for the gun, unconcealment of the holstered gun from behind whatever clothing conceals it, unholstering gun, drawing it on target and squeezing the trigger. Then try putting in in your pocket unchambered while gripping the handle and time that the reaction time from that point which includes racking the slide. Not everybody wants to hold their gun in their front pocket and not everyone wants to carry chambered. We won't have to go down the path of saying how slow a concealed/holstered draw is because you've already made your mind up that to carry that way and even if it shaves a few tenths of a second off your reaction times, you probably aren't changing now. Even if those few tenths off your reaction time mean your and your loved one's lives.

Now that last sentence kid of hits home doesn't it? Remember the "only one hand" argument?

Everybody who is on here and carries concealed with an empty chamber is always chastised for their decisions. What makes everybody think they have the right to demean those who carry unchambered? There is no such thing as a AD/ND with an unchambered gun. I like the fact that I have never killed anybody with my gun or shot a hole through a wall accidentally. I intend to keep it that way and if it means carrying unchambered(unless I enter a situation/place that is too unsafe, which I stay away from as it is)then I am OK with that. If my gun is involved in a AD/ND by malfunction, some object grabbing the trigger, my finger or another's, Mr. Ayoob isn't going to call me up and take blame for my carrying methods if it goes bad. Nobody has to live with my decision to carry chambered and have the gun gun off and cause a death/injury. It's easy to armchair quarterback and say chambered is the only way. Instead of jumping on the keyboard and ridiculing others on the way of their decision on carry, try understanding there is a person on the other side of the screen who cares about their own life and others just like you. If that person has made the decision to carry a tool that will kill and deems it necessary to carry unchambered, then respect that they made the decision to at least protect themselves and others around them if the need arises by carrying that gun.



Well, I HAVE been involved in a Justifiable Homicide, and have been shot at "more than once".. (My family owned convenience stores)..

Things I have noticed:
Every time I have had to draw a gun, I have not had time to rack the slide.
Every time I was faced with a "stressful" situation, I either had one hand busy or was using one hand to "push back" or close a door, or SOMETHING.

I carry one in the chamber.

I hope it never happens to you, but if it does, you never have time to "worry" which is why whatever I am carrying, it is ready.

Coronach
March 11, 2010, 01:33 PM
Keep in mind that the Israelis don't chamber a round until they are ready to go.Israeli carry was designed for a situation that is very different from CCWing. It was designed to have a common manual of arms across a broad spectrum of in-service weapons, and in order to keep sometimes minimally-trained soldiers safe until they were into a combat zone, whereupon they could load and make ready. This is about as far from a CCW self-defense scenario as I can imagine. But, because the Israelis do it and we all know they have the most ninja-like military on the surface of the earth, it still comes up as a good thing to do for the CCWer.

It isn't.

The "old one hand argument" isn't tiresome, it is the truth. I'm a cop, and a large percentage of the officer-involved shootings of which I have personal knowledge involved an officer wrestling with a suspect. He would not have been able to draw and rack the slide, because his support hand was full of Bad Guy. A large percentage of armed robberies include a preliminary physical assault in order to get the victim of balance and on the defensive before the gun is presented. In most of those instances, the victim was warding of blows with one or both hands. Getting a gun into play would have been hard enough with one hand. Two would have been impossible. Many times the robbery occurs at a time in which you are preoccupied- carrying something (perhaps the item the robber wants), guiding a child, protecting a loved one, opening a door, calling for help on a phone. And, of course, your arm could have been injured already by the time you draw. I've watched countless armed robberies on surveilance tapes. In most of the situations where the victim has a gun and shoots back, there would have been no time for him to run the slide.

You need something you can operate one handed, immediately.

I've seen people draw and rack a slide and get the gun into operation very quickly. I have no doubt that they can draw, charge, present and fire a gun more quickly than a less experienced shooter can simply draw and fire. No doubt. However, the idea that it is "just as fast" as drawing and shooting is false. Assuming equally skilled people, the person drawing and firing will be faster than the person drawing, charging, and shooting; it's simple mechanics. This means that if you invested the time and effort it takes to become proficient at the draw, charge, shoot drill into perfecting the plain draw and shoot drill, you'd probably be significantly faster just drawing and shooting.

The reason these threads get so much play from the "Condition 1" crowd is not because they care what YOU do with your gun, but they do care what advice gets presented to novice shooters.

Mike

RonBernert
March 11, 2010, 01:46 PM
The reason these threads get so much play from the "Condition 1" crowd is not because they care what YOU do with your gun, but they do care what advice gets presented to novice shooters.

Mike, that is a great way to say that. Thanks!:)

bdb benzino
March 11, 2010, 02:04 PM
Always one in the pipe!!

Mad Magyar
March 11, 2010, 02:18 PM
By the response this topic generates in numbers each time, rather than Condition Oneer's trying to educate or facilitate a quicker draw; I believe we have more "closet Condition 3's" than we are led to believe.
Let me say that for many years I practiced and am proficient in the Israeli Draw, but there were some factors that led me to change to one in the tube. Long story short, I was confronted by some gang bangers at a truck stop when I realized due to the circumstances of distance & time factor with little room to manuever for a slide rack; that changed it for me...
I certainly don't criticize anyone for there mode of carry, I took the heat when I defended Cond.3 on many forums, so I say to each their own and be proficient.
I'm still haunted by the video of the jewelry store owner who knows he's about to be robbed. He sees the BG pull out his gun and while he brings his 1911 from B.O.B., he fails to to flip the safety and he's pulling on nothing while the bastard is plugging away at his helpless body. He survived another robbery...Moral: In the heat of battle, you still might forget a thing like the safety...

SwampWolf
March 11, 2010, 02:43 PM
I intend to keep it that way and if it means carrying unchambered(unless I enter a situation/place that is too unsafe, which I stay away from as it is)then I am OK with that.

So, if you're in an "unsafe" place, you would exercise your sense of prudence and carry your pistol with a round chambered? Are you clairvoyant? Do you think those poor souls who were killed by madmen thought they were in an "unsafe" place as they ate their meals at their favorite restaurant; as they worshipped at their church of choice; as they were taking notes at the school they were attending or as they were performing their jobs at their workplaces?

If you carry a gun for self-protection, it is because you believe that there might be, however unlikely, a situation you could find yourself in where, literally, life and death is at stake. Steering clear of "bad neighborhoods" is good advice. But, if that's all you had to do to avoid trouble, then you might as well leave your gun at home. But, no, you choose to carry because you know that things aren't that predictable; that evil exists and that you, or your loved ones, are not immune from the horrors that evil can wreak on innocents, people who did not go out asking for trouble but trouble found them anyway.

Certainly, you can carry your pistol any way you see fit, chambered round or unchambered, and I haven't seen anyone yet being "chastised" for exercising their free-will; though sometimes it is hard to separate the "arguer from the argument". This one thing I know though: I'm retired le and I'm aware of no police department in America that would even allow there officers to carry a pistol with an unchambered round. None. It's not even an option because it would be the height of folly to expect an officer to enter a gunfight with one hand tied behind his back. You might argue that a cop's job is different from your carrying a pistol concealed for self-defense. That may sound reasonable until you have to use your pistol to defend yourself. It is only then you'll learn that, when it comes to saving your bacon from an armed assailant, your roles weren't so far apart after all.

You can take this to the bank: What's good for the cop on the beat is not too good for you. If you've decided to carry a pistol for self-defense, keep it configured in the mode it was intended- with a round in the chamber.

shockwave
March 11, 2010, 02:50 PM
You can take this to the bank: What's good for the cop on the beat is not too good for you. If you've decided to carry a pistol for self-defense, keep it configured in the mode it was intended- with a round in the chamber.

The cop on the beat is not normally going to be prey. It's happened, but not often. The citizen going about his daily business, however, may indeed become the target of thieves or muggers. The cop may be directed to a place of violent danger and know beforehand to make ready. The citizen can only be vigilant and watchful. So there's some differences to consider and "what's good for the cop" may not be appropriate for the citizen.

SwampWolf
March 11, 2010, 02:54 PM
The cop may be directed to a place of violent danger and know beforehand to make ready.

Right-that way, he can be sure to chamber a round ahead of time. :rolleyes:

Coronach
March 11, 2010, 03:09 PM
The cop on the beat has to be just as ready for unexpected action as the CCWer. Probably moreso. Our last three police-involved shootings were not runs where anyone would have anticipated a special need for armed response. Heck, the overwhelmingly vast majority of LE shootings are that way (I picked the last three because I have personal knowledge of what happened in all of them), as evidenced by the fact that the bad guy is usually shot with a sidearm, and not a long gun. ;)

And, as was mentioned, no LE agency of which I am aware allows "Israeli Carry". It's not safe.

Mike

Hokkmike
March 11, 2010, 03:59 PM
Whichever way you feel most comfortable with is OK to start. Point is, the more comfortable you become with your weapon the safer you are!

makarovnik
March 11, 2010, 06:00 PM
Not for me.

shockwave
March 11, 2010, 06:24 PM
The cop on the beat has to be just as ready for unexpected action as the CCWer.

Absolutely. The cop is more likely to be in high adrenaline situations. My comment was not directed toward condition one issues, but a note that what goes for police is not necessarily a guide for what's best for the CCW holder. Because "cops do it" isn't an apples to apples argument. Actually, the differences between citizens and cops argue even more strongly for the need for CCWs to keep one in the chamber. Snubbie users, for their part, are unlikely to want the hammer on an empty chamber so as to only have 4 rounds available.

All that said, though, if somebody wants carry with an empty chamber, it's better than not carrying at all in terms of having options. And, with time and experience, that person will likely migrate to condition one anyway.

UnTainted
March 11, 2010, 07:00 PM
to five chambers, amen. my first carry gun when i was young was my dad's 38 special 5 shot. when i transitioned into autos later in college, there was never a question. Now I like sigs and kahr steel

ilikepancakes
March 12, 2010, 06:03 PM
Hm... every time I read it I still don't buy it... the attitude "CARRY ONE UP OR DONT CARRY AT ALL".

To those who say this, yes it makes sense that a full chamber is advantageous over an empty chamber, but do you seriously think it's better to not have a gun AT ALL than be at a split second disadvantage?

If the answer is "yes", let me ask you this:

What about car guns (ie glove box, console, under the seat)? Even a condition 3 gun on person is quicker than any condition gun in the glovebox. Should we not have those either?

Similarly, holster alternatives? Like purses? Or those planner mimics for office carry? Takes a couple seconds to draw so... Shouldn't have them???

According to this logic of all-or-nothing, YOU should all leave your gun at home because in any situation where you're going to use it IN DEFENSE, you're already at a tactical disadvantage. This is precisely why it is preferable in most situations to carry condition 1, but it by no means legitimizes being completely unarmed.

If your answer is still yes then please give me a reason that actually makes sense beyond "split seconds count" for why someone should go about unarmed.

Ahem... so anyway, no I don't. If my carry gun (Glock) had a manual safety (I'll save the whole "safe action" thing for another time, feel I've ranted enough ;)) or I carried it in a holster then yes I would.

Frank Ettin
March 12, 2010, 08:17 PM
...What about car guns (ie glove box, console, under the seat)? Even a condition 3 gun on person is quicker than any condition gun in the glovebox. Should we not have those either?..What's the difference between a gun that you don't have and a gun that you can't get to quickly enough to put to effective use? A gun is not a talisman. It doesn't protect you by its mere presence. It's only worthwhile if you have the skill, ability and enough time to be able to put it to use to protect yourself. And of course anything you do to increase the amount of time you'll need makes it less likely that circumstances will give you enough time to be able to put your gun to effective use. You have no idea how much time you'll have until it happens.

You pays your money and you takes your chance. If someone chooses to hamper his potential response by carrying his gun "off-body" or in deep concealment or with an empty chamber, that's his choice. Maybe that won't make the gun useless if the time ever comes that it's needed. But then again, maybe it will.

...in any situation where you're going to use it IN DEFENSE, you're already at a tactical disadvantage....True, and things like carrying the gun "off-body" or in deep concealment or with an empty chamber, further increase that disadvantage. Anyone who wants to make a tough situation even tougher on himself is welcome to do so.

ilikepancakes
March 12, 2010, 11:50 PM
I agree with everything you said, fiddletown. Still doesn't mean people are better off leaving a gun at home than carrying in anything other than condition 1.

Ruggles
March 12, 2010, 11:58 PM
Yeah that whole "an unloaded gun is no better than a brick" mentality is pretty faulty. Bricks can not be turned into loaded handguns in under a second. I have never understood the mentality that carrying a gun not chambered was just like not carrying at all.

Nick5182
March 13, 2010, 12:05 AM
I started off the bat with one in the chamber. My first CCW weapon was a Beretta 92fs, and I still use it occasionally. I really like the de-cock DA/SA of it. My other carry gun is a Glock 22 and I fully trust it with one in the chamber.

Frank Ettin
March 13, 2010, 12:09 AM
...Still doesn't mean people are better off leaving a gun at home... Well of course, if you have a gun with you but can't put it to effective use, you may have just made a present of it to a bad guy.

But look, the bottom line still is that just having a gun doesn't do you any good. You need to be able to use it effectively. Can you? Are you trained in its use? How proficient are you? Can you get to the gun soon enough and put it into play soon enough? Do you really know how to use it effectively? How well can you manage things under stress? These things can affect the outcome of a violent encounter.

How fast will you have to be? How good will you have to be? I don't know, and neither do you.

okespe04
March 13, 2010, 12:17 AM
cocked and locked from the get go.

straitnate14
March 13, 2010, 12:24 AM
I wish I could carry a gun in the first place. If you guys get to carry one with no mag in it's still better than me in the peoples republic of IL where I cant even keep it in the glove box with a mag in it in a case...

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