Firearm Bill of Sale


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AWorthyOpponent
March 9, 2010, 01:36 AM
When I buy a gun, face to face, I always have the seller sign a bill of sale just in case. Here in Florida, its not required to do, but I worry about the possibility of a gun being reported stolen, and for SOME REASON, the SN is ran. I have heard of people doing this to collect insurance money on it and just want to cover myself, so I created a Firearms Bill of Sale. I couldn't find one online that was what I was looking for, but compiled one of my own using what I did find as an outline. I've recently had a couple of people ask me to send it to them and figured that id put it out for you all to use if you would like.

http://www.dan-shannon.com/storage/Firearm_Bill_of_Sale.pdf

Am I missing anything that could make this better?

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AWorthyOpponent
March 9, 2010, 01:40 AM
...don't know if this is better off in the "Legal" area...sorry if location is wrong.

Jumping Frog
March 9, 2010, 02:14 AM
Well, I looked at your document. There is no way I am signing anything for anyone on private sales (not required in my state, YMMV). I don't even show ID, although I am willing to demonstrate residency by displaying my DL with my thumb covering name/address.

If someone doesn't want to sell to me privately, that is their choice. It is still a free market for both parties. There are a lot of guns available for private purchase or sale, so I'll just move on to the next one.

I did notice one typo: "I, the seller, transfer this firearm to the seller on an “As Is” basis"

AWorthyOpponent
March 9, 2010, 02:37 AM
I did notice one typo:

Thank you.

Also, I put the ID thing there just in case it becomes required somewhere else. Hence the "if possible" section

thorazine
March 9, 2010, 04:04 AM
Please make sure you state in the advertisement that the buyer needs to sign a bill of sale.

Twice I was taken by surprise when the seller presented me with a bill of sale -- which was not previously discussed prior to making any commitment to purchase.

One even required a DL# and SS# -- which cost him the sale as he wouldn't budge on those terms.

AWorthyOpponent
March 9, 2010, 04:17 AM
One even required a DL# and SS# -- which cost him the sale as he wouldn't budge on those terms.

Good...he doesn't need them...and the guy who gave it to him was an idiot. The only thing that I require is that you write your real name, sign and initial in front of someone that I know in case i need it for any legal reason. the DL spot was more so for an additional level of security IF I REALLY think the price is too good to be true.

Even then I have a cutout that blocks all the information from the photocopy...its really just for the picture in that case...giving out all that info is stupid.

Bhamrichard
March 9, 2010, 06:41 AM
I have no issues with signing a bill of sale for any property that I may buy/sell. It protects me as both the buyer and seller of any property. I would never, however, give someone a copy of my legal ID or SS#. If you need to SEE it, to verify legal age etc in the case of a firearm, that's a non-issue to me as you are required to verify that I'm 18+ anyway.

But retaining a copy of any of that personal info? Nah, I wouldn't give you photocopies. My name/address etc should be sufficient.

But a standard bill of sale for any actual property, should IMO always be executed. There too many ways a "he said/she said" situation could come up without written proof of the transaction.

wishin
March 9, 2010, 10:43 AM
______ I, the seller, transfer this firearm to the buyer on an “As Is” basis and make no warranty whatsoever of merchantability...............


Here, I would probably say "expressed or implied", only because I see that used often in sales contracts.

Bubba613
March 9, 2010, 10:47 AM
There is no way I am signing anything for anyone on private sales (not required in my state, YMMV). I don't even show ID, although I am willing to demonstrate residency by displaying my DL with my thumb covering name/address.
+1
I never understood the utility of such things. If the buyer is a felon then he will probably lie to the seller as well. So no protection there. If the gun is used in a crime then the only thing you need to do if asked is say you sold it so many days/weeks/months/years ago. I never heard of anyone getting charged just because a gun he had sold privately was later used in a crime.

NavyLCDR
March 9, 2010, 11:00 AM
I've done two part bills of sale for the few firearms I have sold. It was nothing more than the name of the buyer and seller, the date, serial number and description of the gun and purchase price. I signed one for the buyer as a receipt for their money and they signed one for me as a receipt for my gun. That was all.

I will gladly show you my ID, I have no problems with that, but you won't write anything down about me other than my name and you certainly won't get a copy of my ID! That's how identity theft happens. I also think a witnesses signature is over the top, too.

Patriotme
March 9, 2010, 11:14 AM
Who would have thought that America would be as it is today when we where children? A criminal shoots a family member so a gun store and manufacturer is sued. A city is crime ridden so mayors all over the nation sue the gun industry.
It would be a good idea to know where your guns are going when you sell them. A name is not too much to ask for.
How long do you really think it will be before families start sueing the original gun owner when a firearm is used in a shooting? Gun owners will be treated just like the manufacturers and gun dealers. "What, you sold a gun to someone and don't even know who it was?" "That's irresponsible...you clearly owe _____ to the family of _____."
It's coming and you will look very bad if you cannot even supply a name of the guy you sold your weapon to.
Basically lawyers haven't tapped this cash cow yet because the gun manufacturers and gun dealers have deaper pockets. Give it time.

Bubba613
March 9, 2010, 11:18 AM
It isn;t like litigation is something new in the last 5 years. We have had an overly sue-happy society for probably 20 years or more. If victims or their families could sue the private seller, they would have done so. The fact that it hasn't happened tells me it probably won't.
I'd be more worried that the BoS will fall into the hands of buyer's worthless son/nephew/neighbor/brother in law who will realize that I have guns and knows where I live.

tkopp
March 9, 2010, 11:44 AM
I dunno about you guys, but legal or not if I'm selling my guns it will be to someone I know isn't a jackass. Typically this means friends and family. And if I don't know them personally, I'm asking to see a CCW. In Washington it's very easy to get, and a quick way to see if someone can pass a background check and has at least a minimum level of interest in shooting sports. What if they need to defend their family and don't have a CCW? Then they can go to any gun store and walk out with a shotgun the same day.

X-Rap
March 9, 2010, 11:49 AM
I'm leaning hard toward a BOS on guns anymore. An address and legal form of ID would be priceless if you are ever in a situation that had your serial number run and it came back as stolen. When some people advocate lawyering up before even talking to a cop having some connection to the seller or buyer would be cheap insurance in the case of a stolen firearm and a federal crime.
A DL# is required to write a check at most stores that still take them.

NavyLCDR
March 9, 2010, 11:54 AM
I dunno about you guys, but legal or not if I'm selling my guns it will be to someone I know isn't a jackass. Typically this means friends and family. And if I don't know them personally, I'm asking to see a CCW. In Washington it's very easy to get

I paid the state of Washington for a CPL for the privilege of concealing a firearm if I choose to do so and so that I can walk out of a licensed dealer's premises with a handgun the same day I walk in. I did not pay the state of Washington to ease the fears of the private person who wishes to sell a gun to me. I don't ask that you prove to me that the gun you are selling to me is not stolen. If I trust you enough to buy a gun from you without demanding proof that the gun is not stolen, then you can trust me enough when I tell you I am lawful to possess that gun.

That's just my personal opinion, how I think and operate, and we, of course, are free to both go our separate ways, no hard feelings.

tkopp
March 9, 2010, 12:13 PM
I'm not that trusting. But then, I'm a pawn broker. There are a lot of decent folk out there, but there are also a lot of scumbags. The key is to learn how to deal with the former without being exploited by the latter.

RainDodger
March 9, 2010, 12:36 PM
The only time I ever demanded anything signed was when an ex-wife wanted "her" S&W Model 60 back. I wouldn't give it to her until she signed a piece of paper that released me from any responsibility for the revolver. :) It's still in my file after 20 years.

Frank Ettin
March 9, 2010, 02:20 PM
I guess it's my training, but I believe in conducting business with strangers in a more formal manner.

To me, good business practice, when buying a gun in a private transaction, includes both the buyer and seller properly identifying themselves to each other, providing each other with contact, and documenting the transaction with a written bill of sale.

I might not go through that sort of rigmarole buying a card table at a garage sale. But I'd certainly be that thorough buying anything of meaningful value or something that is a popular item among thieves -- like a watch, or a piece of jewelry, or an expensive piece of art, or a computer, or a television set, or a gun.

That might mean that I won't be doing business with you, if you object to doing business in that more formal manner, but that's okay with me.

cskny
March 9, 2010, 02:28 PM
Nicely said fiddletown

NavyLCDR
March 9, 2010, 03:10 PM
A lot of government provided kool aid flowin' around here! :D

jcs271
March 9, 2010, 03:13 PM
Its sad but I won't BUY any gun without a bill of sale from the seller. To much of a chance that somewhere along the way a gun may have been reported as stolen. I do not want to be contacted by law enforcement who at some point run the serial number, discover the gun stolen and I can only quietly reply "I bought it off this guy at a show". Much better to exclaim boldly, "I bought that gun from (whoever) and have a receipt to prove it."

Discount my advice if you wish, but I spent 25 years as a cop and literally ran a thousand guns to check if they were stolen. Many were!

Bubba613
March 9, 2010, 03:48 PM
If the gun was stolen a bill of sale from the seller won't help. You'll end up losing the gun anyway.

CoRoMo
March 9, 2010, 03:52 PM
To much of a chance that somewhere along the way a gun may have been reported as stolen.

Too much of a chance? I'd say that there is little chance of that. Take the number of guns stolen per year, and subtract that from the number of guns sold in private transactions. There is a greater chance that the average, privately sold gun is perfectly legit. Sure, most stolen guns are sold via private transactions, but most privately sold guns are not stolen.

I spent 25 years as a cop and literally ran a thousand guns to check if they were stolen. Many were!

That's no surprise. You were dealing with guns that were somehow involved in an illegal activity. Many of those guns are going to be stolen, but almost none of them will show up in the classified ads for sale.

AWorthyOpponent
March 9, 2010, 03:54 PM
To me, good business practice, when buying a gun in a private transaction, includes both the buyer and seller properly identifying themselves to each other, providing each other with contact, and documenting the transaction with a written bill of sale.

I don't think that asking for a BoS in the case of a gun is that big of a deal. Im not going to give out my SSN, Credit Card Number, etc..., but giving someone your Name, address, and other information that is public record anyways if fine. If you cant give me a BoS, I look at it as you are trying to hide something and will either sell it to someone else and sell it, or buy it somewhere else for a little more. Id rather spend $50 more and know that I'll be able to keep it after law enforcement runs the SN.

There are a lot of decent folk out there, but there are also a lot of scumbags

AWorthyOpponent
March 9, 2010, 03:57 PM
If the gun was stolen a bill of sale from the seller won't help. You'll end up losing the gun anyway.

Yes, if it is not the person that reported it stolen. But I wont be going to jail, the guy that signed the BoS and gave me his picture and address will. Get where I'm going with this...?

X-Rap
March 9, 2010, 04:03 PM
When dealing in things that have serial nos. titles or other identifying marks that are favored by thieves it seems that having some trail of ownership is not a bad idea. It might not allow you to retain the property but it will likely send the criminal investigation on down the line without the need for expensive defense and time lost from your life.
I am not singling guns out alone on this but would include optics, cameras, electronics and tools.

AzBuckfever
March 9, 2010, 04:13 PM
I too have no reservations of not signing a bill of sale. I agree that it is in the best interest of both parties involved and in the event I am selling a firearm, I would be skeptical of selling to someone who does not want to list general information. Having a law enforcement background, I know that it can also help. Picture this, your family member/friend is killed with a weapon and the gun is left at the seen. Unfortunately, the gun goes back to someone who says they sold it, but the person they sold it to didn't want to leave any info. #1, looks bad on your part if you were the seller; and #2, it's bad on your part if you were the victim. Taking it a step further, how are you going to feel when there's a knock at your door and the police tell you that the gun you sold was used in a crime by the person you sold the gun to?
I agree in that I would never list my DL or SSN regardless of what the circumstances were, but I would list anything that is public record anyway (i.e. Name, DOB, and Place of residence).

duns
March 9, 2010, 04:45 PM
Given how sensitive many people are about their DL number, I would not keep a copy of the DL nor record it's number. I would use the DL just to verify the name, address, and signature.

Bubba613
March 9, 2010, 05:24 PM
Yes, if it is not the person that reported it stolen. But I wont be going to jail, the guy that signed the BoS and gave me his picture and address will. Get where I'm going with this...?
No.
If the guy who sold it isn't a convicted felon, has no prior arrests, holds a steady job, and is generally Joe Citizen then no one is going to arrest him for armed robbery/murder with the gun.

CoRoMo
March 9, 2010, 05:28 PM
As if your going to be caught with no alibi, hauled off to prison for a crime you didn't commit.

Shawn Dodson
March 9, 2010, 06:13 PM
Washington DOL offers a similar "Private Disposition/Transfer" form on its website. I've used it for private sales but NEVER sent it in to the state.

http://www.dol.wa.gov/forms/652004.pdf

The Lone Haranguer
March 9, 2010, 07:11 PM
If you're going to go to all that trouble anyway, I would suggest adding a "sold as is and with all faults" clause.

thorazine
March 9, 2010, 08:00 PM
Flashy flashy of DL & CCW permit has always been good enough for me. :D

gym
March 9, 2010, 09:23 PM
Don't forget that if you are doing a "trade", the other person already had a gun. i remember even in gun shops when trading there was no "wait" no ccw, I took my manager, Way back when, and he had no license, he walked out with a G 27 because he traded a baretta and some cash. I would think that a trade is safer than selling a gun to someone you don't know from adam, but legally I don't know. You can check for stolen guns in FL on your cell it it gets internet access. That I did use.Just google the link. I would think most states have similar web sites for that.

harmonic
March 9, 2010, 10:12 PM
Your guns, dude. Your rules. But I always stipulate in my ads exactly what kind of paperwork I expect. If I were the type to buy guns with the express purpose of leaving no paper trail, I'd be upset if I drove to meet you and then found out.

AzBuckfever
March 10, 2010, 12:05 AM
Best thing to do in any rate is just take the freakin' gun to a FFL holder, pay the man/woman $15 bucks or whatever, and transfer the dang thing. If he can't pass the check, must be something wrong....right?

X-Rap
March 10, 2010, 09:19 AM
I can see and respect peoples wish to have private sales off the books and out of the gov. paperwork loop. I feel that way myself, the guns I have off the books are typically not for sale so those that I do sell will lead right back to me if they turn up down the road and I want to know at least who I sold it to. On the flip side if I buy one and then it later shows up as stolen I want to know who I bought it from.
I'm not saying we need to involve anyone but the two parties.
I often write down names and lic. plate # when doing FTF transactions on any valuable merchandise I guess this just puts both parties on the same level and both above board.

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