Why the 5.7?


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spartanpride
March 9, 2010, 05:33 PM
Why do people think that the FN 5.7 cartridge is the best thing since sliced bread? Isn't it almost identical as the .22 mag? Both are around 40gr and pushing 2000 fps. Why use the 5.7 when there's the more popular and easily found .22 mag?

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FIVETWOSEVEN
March 9, 2010, 05:44 PM
There are videos on youtube showing a 5.7 x 28 compared to a .22 mag, the 5.7 is about the same as a 9mm regarding wound cavaties.

Justin
March 9, 2010, 05:56 PM
FWIW, the 5.7 round achieves the same velocities in a pistol that .22 magnum achieves in a rifle.

I'm no 5.7 fanboy, but there is a significant difference between the rounds.

Kingofthehill
March 9, 2010, 06:11 PM
i think its way overhyped.

that being said, i am looking for a 5.7 upper for my AR. lol.... 50rd mag opposed to 30 and ejects through the factory mag opening is just COOL.

now, once i get that Upper, i plan on getting the Pistol to have a matching set because hey... its cool hahahahaha..

Its very light recoiling, and very fast follow up's.

but i do agree that with the CIVILIAN available ammo, its not the end all cartridge. Although the Fort Hood shooter unfortunately had good results.

JOe

7.62 Nato
March 9, 2010, 06:18 PM
The 5.7 does have better ballistics than the .22 mag. and it is also centerfire, making it much more reliable.

FIVETWOSEVEN
March 9, 2010, 06:20 PM
Can't you get AP rounds if they are made in the country and not prohibited otherwise?

DoubleTapDrew
March 9, 2010, 06:30 PM
Not for a pistol. The AP 5.7 round was available here when they brought out the PS90, until they brought out the FiveseveN, at least that's my understanding.

General Geoff
March 9, 2010, 06:50 PM
5.7x28mm, as Justin pointed out, has similar velocities as a .22 mag rifle, out of a pistol. It is centerfire, meaning more reliable ignition. And finally, it is a bottlenecked cartridge, meanining superior feeding and extraction reliability.

That said, Kel-Tec is coming out with the PMR-30, (http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/11/23/kel-tec-pmr-30-pistol/) a .22WMR handgun which holds 30 rounds in a flush-fitting magazine, which is likely intended as a direct (and cheaper) competitor to the FN Five-seveN pistol.



edit; if the PMR-30 takes off, I foresee some ammo manufacturers selling .22WMR loads tailored to the short barrel of a pistol to close the gap a bit.

nwilliams
March 9, 2010, 07:14 PM
I like the 5.7 but I don't think it's the greatest round by any means, I have a PS90 and I really enjoy shooting it. However I bought a PS90 more for the gun than the round it fires.

Hatterasguy
March 9, 2010, 07:53 PM
The 5.7 round that they won't sell to civilians is a good round.

The civilian version is lame and has had its balls cut off, so I'll pass.

General Geoff
March 9, 2010, 07:56 PM
Hatterasguy, I don't know where you hear these things from, but it is misinformation at its worst.

Elite Ammunition (http://www.eliteammunition.net/home.html) sells hot-loaded ammo that surpasses the performance of the "armor piercing" military/LEO-only ammunition available in 5.7x28mm.

Hatterasguy
March 9, 2010, 08:01 PM
Oh I didn't know that. Although everything on that site seems backordered so it looks like its hard to get.

But I'm not a fan of proprietary rounds and don't reload so I'd never buy anything in that caliber.

IMHO your better off getting the 7.62X28, its dirt cheap and probably works about the same.

browningguy
March 9, 2010, 09:34 PM
The 5.7x28 is a fun round with nonexistant recoil, and somewhat better than a .22 mag ballistically. As already mentioned it's also a centerfire making it easy to reload for. As far as comparing it to a 7.62x39 (I'm guessing you meant 39) they really aren't comparable. The AK/SKS round is a true intermediate cartridge with much more power, and also weight. I shoot it through an AR57 upper and find it to be decently accurate (i've only shot it out to 100 yards) and with the low recoil anyone can shoot it with ease. I've put the 6 position stock on this lower just so youngsters and small in stature ladies can also shoot it.

With 50 rounds in a mag I wouldn't feel out of place using it as a HD rifle either.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/jcm9371/Rifles/ar57-2.jpg

loki.fish
March 9, 2010, 09:47 PM
People deer hunt with the pistol and have no issues, so I'd say it's perfectly capable. That being said, it's kind of expensive when compared to 9mm, so it turns alot of people away from it. There's skeptics for everything, I'll CC mine when I quit being lazy and find a holster for it and I'll be perfectly comfortable using it for self defense.

clarence222
March 9, 2010, 09:48 PM
According to the show I watched on Discovery Channel last night the round itself was designed soley for its armor piercing abilities.

Hatterasguy
March 9, 2010, 09:49 PM
The 5.7x28 is a fun round with nonexistant recoil, and somewhat better than a .22 mag ballistically. As already mentioned it's also a centerfire making it easy to reload for. As far as comparing it to a 7.62x39 (I'm guessing you meant 39) they really aren't comparable. The AK/SKS round is a true intermediate cartridge with much more power, and also weight. I shoot it through an AR57 upper and find it to be decently accurate (i've only shot it out to 100 yards) and with the low recoil anyone can shoot it with ease. I've put the 6 position stock on this lower just so youngsters and small in stature ladies can also shoot it.

With 50 rounds in a mag I wouldn't feel out of place using it as a HD rifle either.

Sorry ment 7.62X25.

A hot combat proven communist round that does a number on armor.

BTW cool rifle!

I understand the idea behind the 5.7, it was ment to defeat body armor and replace the 9mm in sub guns. FN was going after the MP5. Not sure why it failed, but it did. HK also failed with their 4.7 or whatever it was.

The whole idea is when swat or a special forces operator entered a room and did a center mass double tap on a bad guy, the bad guy had less of a chance of getting up if he was wearing armor and hit with a 5.7 vs a 9mm.

LS240
March 9, 2010, 11:03 PM
7.62x25 is a great round, but unfortunately choices are rather limited as far as firearms to shoot it. I suppose the same could be said of the 5.7 as well, but at least the 5.7 is fired from newish designs with much better ergos than some outdated Russian or Czech pistol. If somebody like Glock were to make a new 7.62 Tok pistol I'd be all over it.

As for the OP's questions, I don't think anyone is saying the 5.7 is the best thing since sliced bread. It's mostly the anti's who make it out to be some magical cop killing super cannon of death. That and any show on The Military Channel. Among firearms enthusiasts I see far more negativity than praise.

As stated, the 5.7 has about the same velocity out of a pistol as a 22mag out of a rifle, and obviously out of a rifle the 5.7 is a lot hotter. Terminal ballistics also appear to be much better. And centerfire is both more reliable and can be reloaded. It's certainly not the best round out there, but I can see it being quite a viable self defense round. Seems in all the studies I've seen, shot placement is the biggest factor in stopping an assailant, not caliber. As long as the round can penetrate to vitals such as the heart and spinal column and has enough energy to do damage once it gets there, which the 5.7 certainly can do, it will incapacitate as well as anything else. It's probably more sensitive to shot placement than other larger and/or more powerful rounds, but assuming proper shot placement, it will do the job. That makes it perfectly viable, though I'd still rather have 5.56 any day.

wlewisiii
March 10, 2010, 12:22 AM
I want a CZ-52 re-barreled for 5.7 :D

William

7.62 Nato
March 10, 2010, 12:32 AM
5.7x28mm, as Justin pointed out, has similar velocities as a .22 mag rifle, out of a pistol. It is centerfire, meaning more reliable ignition. And finally, it is a bottlenecked cartridge, meanining superior feeding and extraction reliability.

That said, Kel-Tec is coming out with the PMR-30, (http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/11/23/kel-tec-pmr-30-pistol/) a .22WMR handgun which holds 30 rounds in a flush-fitting magazine, which is likely intended as a direct (and cheaper) competitor to the FN Five-seveN pistol.



edit; if the PMR-30 takes off, I foresee some ammo manufacturers selling .22WMR loads tailored to the short barrel of a pistol to close the gap a bit.
The kel-Tec PMR-30 is the updated version of the Grendel P-30. They were both designed by the same guy. The P-30 was out long before the FN57. Production stopped with the first assault weapons ban.

General Geoff
March 10, 2010, 12:40 AM
Ahh, the unintended consequences of the federal AWB continue to ripple throughout the gun culture... :(

fireman 9731
March 10, 2010, 12:42 AM
People deer hunt with the pistol and have no issues

I have a really hard time believing that. Most ammo is loaded with a 40gr varmint bullet that is designed to violently expand on impact. Not what you want for deer...

c5_nc
March 10, 2010, 09:24 AM
7.62x25 is a pretty awesome round with very hot ammo. The tokerev is pretty nice also. You can't really find the good 5.7 rounds anymore. You can buy 7.62x25 in 1260rd cans for $86 that will defeat soft body armor, the same amount of lame 5.7 that will not would cost you $500. Not sure what the good 5.7 costs, maybe double that? Think about the price margin when you are buying ammo 5,10k rounds at a time. You can get ar uppers in 7.62x25 that will run a semi and auto lowers. Tokerev lacks high capacity mags but it is very thin to carry and a good shooter.

MachIVshooter
March 10, 2010, 10:50 AM
People deer hunt with the pistol and have no issues, so I'd say it's perfectly capable

What retard would hunt medium game with a 5.7x28, unless it was the only gun you had and your survival depended on it? Not to mention that it wouldn't be legal in any state, to the best of my knowledge.

Shawn Dodson
March 10, 2010, 10:57 AM
Jacksonville County Sheriff's Office stopped using 5.7x28mm after several shootings with it in which it failed to quickly stop violent criminals. Their results mirror the disappointing experiences of other law enforcement agencies who've also used 5.7x28mm in shootings.

Several of the victims shot at Ft. Hood were unaware they'd been shot.

c5_nc
March 10, 2010, 11:29 AM
What retard would hunt medium game with a 5.7x28, unless it was the only gun you had and your survival depended on it? Not to mention that it wouldn't be legal in any state, to the best of my knowledge.
More likely legal in most states, no restrictions here. I know some states have 30cal an up restrictions, but many are do not have any, or are 22 and up.

TX1911fan
March 10, 2010, 11:54 AM
What retard would hunt medium game with a 5.7x28, unless it was the only gun you had and your survival depended on it? Not to mention that it wouldn't be legal in any state, to the best of my knowledge.

Texas' only requirement for hunting ammunition is that it be centerfire, so the "best of your knowledge" isn't very good. I imagine there are other states that allow the 5.7 for hunting as well. Not saying I'd hunt deer with a 5.7, but I could if I wanted to.

TexasRifleman
March 10, 2010, 01:11 PM
What retard would hunt medium game with a 5.7x28, unless it was the only gun you had and your survival depended on it? Not to mention that it wouldn't be legal in any state, to the best of my knowledge.

First, as mentioned, hunting with the 5.7 is perfectly legal in Texas.

And, by the way, there are lots of animals that are hunted for food that are easily dispatched with something like the 5.7 so it's use for hunting isn't necessarily wacky.

Rabbits for one. 5.7 is very effective on rabbit. .30-06 might be a bit of overkill for a nice rabbit stew :)

Be sure to cook the meat thoroughly by the way......

As for "medium game" have you seen some of the scrawny West Texas deer we have? Not much to the little things. I wouldn't do it personally, but it's certainly not against the law.

Billyj571
March 10, 2010, 01:28 PM
I still want one

figment
March 10, 2010, 02:30 PM
I still want one
Love the way mine shoots. Looks kinda ugly though. Barack Obama sold me on it.

FIVETWOSEVEN
March 10, 2010, 04:54 PM
The MP7 fires 4.6 x 30.

The P90 does have a place and is used for those purposes, I'm not to sure if the MP7 is used though, I would think that maybe the secret service carries them.

spartanpride
March 10, 2010, 05:08 PM
Well, so if I'm understanding right, the only good thing about the 5.7 is it's small so you can pack more in a mag, it has little to none recoil, and it can penetrate a lot of body armor. Like some of the other folks said, a 7.62x25 round is 85gr, and travels at about 1700 fps; the 5.7 is 40gr and traveling 2000 fps.

So, the 5.7 is just a little bit faster than the 7.62 Tok, but it's very light, seems more suited for varmint hunting.

The 7.62 Tok goes slightly slower than the 5.7, but is heavier so it has more momentum, which equals more "knock down power"

The 7.62 Tok recoils a bit more than the 5.7, but it's not uncontrollable, and I'm sure that if, God forbid, you did have to shoot somebody you probably would not even notice recoil at all. Plus with practice you can learn to get faster follow up shots regardless of recoil.

The armor piercing factor- The 5.7 travels fast, and is small, so of common sense you know smaller area, greater force (velocity) = more pressure (penetration).
But if I've read somewhat correct info among the interweb, it says that one of the main reasons the 7.62 Tok was invented by the Russians was to penetrate the very thick winter clothing of German forces in WWII. And if you do the math, it sure will penetrate body armor, probably not quite as much as the 5.7, but pretty darn close.

So, they seem equal, only one is best used on anti-personel, and the other seems more fitted for kevlar toting rabbits! :D

BlisteringSilence
March 10, 2010, 06:33 PM
More likely legal in most states, no restrictions here. I know some states have 30cal an up restrictions, but many are do not have any, or are 22 and up.

.30 cal and up might make sense for moose, bison, elk, etc.

I've yet to see a deer that wouldn't be stopped in his tracks by a well placed .243 or .270.....

FIVETWOSEVEN
March 10, 2010, 06:58 PM
any centerfire is fine is just asking for people to use bad judgment. .25 ACP out of a rifle?

TexasRifleman
March 10, 2010, 07:00 PM
any centerfire is fine is just asking for people to use bad judgment

If people are going to do dumb things, laws won't stop them :)

If someone is dumb enough to consider using .25ACP in a rifle they are probably too dumb to read the wildlife laws LOL

NMGonzo
March 10, 2010, 07:36 PM
Because ...

Ruggles
March 10, 2010, 07:54 PM
Most threads regarding the 5.7 are started by those who dislike the round. I can think of none started outside of the FN forums about how great the round is. It seems the "haters" love to attack the round, I would think those who do not like it would just leave it alone and spend their time on the round they do "approve" of. But for some reason they love to attack it and then call anybody who disagree a 5.7 fanboy...........

Count me a 5.7 fanboy I guess......:)

If you do not like it then move on and leave it alone already :)

spartanpride
March 10, 2010, 08:07 PM
OK, i admit, it's a love/hate relationship! Sure I could get a 7.62 Tok, but you had to beat it out of me, 5.7 is pretty cool. Maybe I'll just think of it as a .223 short! :D

Full Metal Jacket
March 10, 2010, 08:23 PM
the 5.7 gained fame because it has almost no recoil, offers very high capacity, and LE agencies like the secret service use the armor piercing 5.7 ammo.

it doesn't have much for stopping power if you miss vital organs though.

Ruggles
March 10, 2010, 08:45 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f76wGxg3fzw

No recoil to speak of and ballistics approaching a 9mm. Try the one handed shooting with a 9mm Uzi or MP5.

Like ALL calibers it has it advantages and disadvantages. It has been successful because it's advantages outweigh it's disadvantages.

Shawn Dodson
March 10, 2010, 09:07 PM
...ballistics approaching a 9mm. In what measure?

FIVETWOSEVEN
March 10, 2010, 09:17 PM
Quote:
any centerfire is fine is just asking for people to use bad judgment

If people are going to do dumb things, laws won't stop them

If someone is dumb enough to consider using .25ACP in a rifle they are probably too dumb to read the wildlife laws LOL

what i'm thinking is someone thinking that since the law says they can that they will.

GRIZ22
March 10, 2010, 09:28 PM
Can't you get AP rounds if they are made in the country and not prohibited otherwise?


The original AP rounds were made in Italy and not even stocked in the US. If a LE agency wanted them they placed an order with their local FN dealer and the order was sent to Italy. The order was shipped from Italy directly to the LE agency. I'm not sure but I think it still works this way.

I got to shoot the P90, the 5.7 pistol, and other FN guns when they were trying to break in the LE market. I was very impressed with the controllability of the P90 (being used to the MP5 and other sub guns).

I think the cartridge fills a niche but a very small one. I'm not overly impressed with it.

1987rx7guy
March 10, 2010, 09:42 PM
In what measure?

In energy I think its around 80% of 9mm ft/lbs which isn't bad in a handgun that has about 50% more capacity than 9mm and a sub gun that has nearly double compared to others.

Not a 5.7 fanboy but its a cool little round.

Ruggles
March 10, 2010, 09:47 PM
"In what measure?"

Ft lbs of energy:

5,7 x28mm SS195 = 345 lbs

9mm 124+p JHP = 396 lbs

Shawn Dodson
March 10, 2010, 09:51 PM
Ft lbs of energy Energy is important how?

Ruggles
March 10, 2010, 10:44 PM
"Energy is important how?"

How would you like to measure the ballistics of a given caliber? Ft lbs of energy has been used a LONG time by MANY people in such a role. If you care to ignore that then feel free to make up you own system. :) Maybe you can find one that fits your desired results.

Uncle Mike
March 11, 2010, 12:40 AM
A nice bolt gun in the 5.7 caliber would make for a superb short to mid range vermin buster.

Make a heck of a magnum squirrel rifle too. lol

MachIVshooter
March 11, 2010, 09:52 AM
Ft lbs of energy:

5,7 x28mm SS195 = 345 lbs

9mm 124+p JHP = 396 lbs

That's out of a 10" barrel on the 5.7. It's a bit under 300 from the Five-seveN pistol

Texas' only requirement for hunting ammunition is that it be centerfire, so the "best of your knowledge" isn't very good

Never researched each state. That seems very foolish to me. The minimums set by any DOW are to ensure clean kills, because many "hunters" have a very poor understanding off ballistics. Colorado, for example, where big game is concerned (deer and antelpe included) is .24 caliber minimum with 1,000 FPE at 100 yards for rifle, 550 FPE at 50 yards for handgun. So a very hot loaded .357 or 10mm is minimum for pistols.

nelsonal
March 11, 2010, 01:12 PM
Never researched each state. That seems very foolish to me. The minimums set by any DOW are to ensure clean kills, because many "hunters" have a very poor understanding off ballistics. Colorado, for example, where big game is concerned (deer and antelpe included) is .24 caliber minimum with 1,000 FPE at 100 yards for rifle, 550 FPE at 50 yards for handgun. So a very hot loaded .357 or 10mm is minimum for pistols.

Western states generally have very high requirements for hunting, partly because shots can be longer (especially on the high plains) and the animals are larger. There are no elk (cept a few imports) in the East, deer are whitetails that are usually under 200 lbs (that's more like antelope sized). Shots are commonly short, so the ability for a round to hold energy out to 200 yards isn't so important. When thinking of Eastern hunting requirements consider what you'd want to shoot a pronghorn at 50 yards. That's why the standards are very different.

Also because it's more densely populated, there are more restrictions designed to prevent damage from missses (for example Indiana doesn't allow rifles when hunting deer).

There are bear, but those usually have separate requirements, specific to hunting bear.

Here's a picture of one of the deer areas in Northern Virginia. Keep in mind that the entire area is only about 2 miles wide and surrounded by housing. http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/3220/thompsonwma.jpg

1987rx7guy
March 11, 2010, 01:52 PM
That's out of a 10" barrel on the 5.7. It's a bit under 300 from the Five-seveN pistol

I don't know if the SS190 is still sold/available to consumers but it imparts 313 ft/lbs of energy fired out of the pistol barrel from what I have read.

Hornady on the other hand has V-Max rounds that carry a muzzle velocity of 2,034 fps carrying a 40 grain projectile with a muzzle energy of 367 ft/lbs


I found some commonly available Remmington "Golden Saber" ammo with data listed



Caliber, Grain, Bullet Type, Muzzle Veloc, Ft/lbs

9mm , 124, BJHP, 1,125, 349

9mm, 147, BJHP, 990, 320

9mm Luger +P, 124, BJHP, 1,180, 384


These are 'self defence/LEO' marketed rounds Brass Jacketed Hollow Points so take it for what its worth.


I believe that my assesment that the 5.7 round is about 80% of the energy of a 9mm round but with higher capacity in pistol and sub-gun is the 'advantage' most people see in the cartridge.


I personally only own .40 s&w semi-autos so i'm sure a 9mm would be more controllable for me. But if the 5.7 is better than that its a plus imho. Staying on target for followup shots would be important to me specially knowing how many people have been shot with 9mm(and 5.7 for that matter) and not 'gone down.'

spartanpride
March 11, 2010, 05:49 PM
I think Uncle Mike said it best! ;)

REAPER4206969
March 12, 2010, 07:22 AM
How would you like to measure the ballistics of a given caliber? Ft lbs of energy has been used a LONG time by MANY people in such a role. If you care to ignore that then feel free to make up you own system. Maybe you can find one that fits your desired results.
This thread is going places...

LT.Diver
March 12, 2010, 07:48 AM
Great write-up on the "Cop Killer Ammo" hype here: http://www.chuckhawks.com/5-7x28_cop_killer.htm

bracer
March 12, 2010, 08:42 AM
I would like to see a rifle chambered for the 5.7X28 MM round. I have been handloading ammo since 1953 and think it would be fun to play with the little round. It uses a .224 diameter bullets so the 35 Gr V-Max bullet could get up to a velocity where it my make a good 125 yard prairie dog and jackrabbit rifle. It has bit more velocity than the 22 WMR and a little less than a 22 Hornet. How about a .172 and .204 wildcat with the 28 mm case ? Looks like a good round for an old gun nut like me..

TexasRifleman
March 12, 2010, 10:12 AM
I would like to see a rifle chambered for the 5.7X28 MM round.

Over on the Five Seven forum an FN rep said they had one of their bolt action rifles in the works with x28. They said it would actually hit in late 2009 so I'm not sure where it is, but they promised it was in development.

Might check over there and see if there are any updates, I don't go there very often.

I would be interested. Seems like a great platform for varmint/target shooting with some handload experimenting.

Shawn Dodson
March 12, 2010, 10:27 AM
How would you like to measure the ballistics of a given caliber? Ft lbs of energy has been used a LONG time by MANY people in such a role. If you care to ignore that then feel free to make up you own system. The example bullet, SS195 is, what, 28 gr? If yes, then to achieve 344 fpe it has to be fired from a P90 and propelled at 2350 fps.

A 40gr expanding bullet, fired from a P90, achieves 1800-2000 fps, producing 290-345 fpe.

I'm confused about the relevance of comparing energy between the P90 and a 9mm handgun? Energy is important how? To punch holes in paper? To hunt varmints? ;)

Ruggles
March 12, 2010, 01:08 PM
Still waiting for you to explain how you would prefer to measure ballistics if not the traditional way. My original statement was simply that the 5.7 approaches the 9mm in ballistics, and it does. If you do not care for ballistics numbers then ignore them and my original statement, no harm no foul.

The comparison between the P90 and a 9mm handgun is there because the P90 is designed to replace the 9mm handgun as a PDW for rear area troops in combat. It is a valid comparison, which would you prefer to have to defend yourself with, a M9 or a P90?

lathedog
March 13, 2010, 01:18 PM
I think the basic comparison to 22 mag is fair enough in a rough order of magnitude sense. The 5.7 has a lot of advantages, as described in earlier posts, but I am still leery of using a 5.7 pistol as a replacement for a 9mm+P or 40s&w handgun for personal protection. It does not pass the gut check.

I understand that modern bullet designs buy a lot of inprovement in performance. That is why I consider a 9mm+P to be in the same ballpark as a 40 or 45. The stats and reports from LE use provide me with the confidence. In the end you never know how something will perform in every situation; I just try to do the best I can to avoid an obvious worse choice. I'd have to see reports and statistics to convince me that a centerfire, bottleneck, hotter version of a 22 mag was a best choice for protecting my precious skin.

My main question is the price of the guns. I've handled PS90's and also the AR57 uppers. I do not own stock in any of these companies. The AR57 looks like a solid and robust unit for under $700. The PS90 looks like it is inexpensive to manufacture and is over twoce the price. I know that AR components are cheaper than they would otherwise be due to the economics of sheer quantity. I would love to have bought a PS90 but felt like I would be making myself a sucker to put out 13 bills (or more) for what I would be getting. Compare to a nicer AR15 or...just compare to all the other choices.

The concept behind the P90 was to provide a cheap but effective replacement to a regular issue infantry weapon. Got it. It is also intended to be cheap and use an effective cartridge that exhausts fewer resources. Why are they so darn expensive? An AR-15 is an unfair price comparison because we all get a huge price break due to the sheer quantity of parts being made all over the US and the world. However, I think other longarms with equivalent complexity and types of materials sell for half the price. Maybe this is due to demand, and maybe materials are getting more expensive, but I do not believe that baseline AR makers are selling at a loss just to move product.

I think a pricepoint for a 5.7 carbine should be equal or less than a bottom tier AR-15 to make it attractive to me. The ammo should be priced less than equivalent quality (i.e. brass cased, etc) .223. I think the 50 rd mags are great and the current pricing is fine with me. It would be a fun rig for plinking, targets, and small game. I would prefer to go to a 5.56/.223 for protecting my precious hide. I do not see .223 in an AR type carbine as needing any less power or less recoil.

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