Hi, what I carry, and Jerry Miculek


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dovedescending
March 10, 2010, 01:29 PM
Hello all, I've been hiding in the shadows for some months now. Nice place you got here.

I carry a 4-inch Rossi .357, K-frame-ish. Hard little bugger to find grips for. :banghead: Pachmayr makes some that should fit, but frankly, I'm into wood. So I'm making my own. Also hard to find a good IWB holster. B/c it's a 4-inch, I think I've settled on Hoffner's Ultrux Miurage, because it holds the cylinder above the belt. Anybody have experience with one of these?

I've been training according to Ayoob... gripping my revolver as high as I can, reseating it into the web, and aligning it with my arm. Two hands, left foot forward (I'm a righty), all that. Then I watched Jerry "OHMYGOSH..." Miculek, http://www.myoutdoortv.com/pdk/web/...emanhJ0KNWQYqM4 and learned that he holds his revolver VERY differently from Ayoob's method. Unless I'm completing misunderstanding Ayoob. :cuss:

How do you fellows grip YOUR wheelguns?

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RatDrall
March 10, 2010, 01:43 PM
Welcome to THR :D

I carry a 4" K-frame and use the standard "square butt conversion" rubber grips that it came with. I grip the gun high, as high as is natural without pushing things. I wouldn't worry about your footing so much, you'll want to practice drawing and firing your gun in various stances (and while moving forward, backward, side to side) because you might not have time to get into a perfect stance when it matters, so you should get used to it when it doesn't.

A side note, I wouldn't worry about how competition shooters hold their guns, just like I don't worry about how competition fighters fight. Competition is a watered down game that doesn't usually have too much to do with real life, where your targets fight back. Holding a gun and moving like the competitors do can get you shot, stabbed, disarmed, etc. :eek:

As far as holsters, I use a Blade Tech IWB, which places the cylinder right under the belt line, which is where it needs to be in order to snug the gun up to my side. Extremely high riding holsters need lots of barrel to pull the gun in, in my experience, and they aren't very comfortable if your shoulders are broader than your waist.

dovedescending
March 10, 2010, 02:04 PM
Thanks, Rat. So I guess I should admire the hell out of Jerry and just keep doing what I've been doing...

The reason I want a high-rise holster is because I like to own/wear pants that fit me WITHOUT a gun... (like when I'm in church; CC in church is illegal here), and tucking a K-frame IWB in regular pants, especially while in the car, can be very uncomfortable. I think 4 inches OUGHT to be enough barrel to tuck it in close; I've tried it sans holster at home and it feels pretty good, and it's not noticeable under a camp shirt. Tucks in pretty close to my side. Maybe it's my belly. Always had a pooch, even when I was a kid. Not due to lack of exercise, I just seem to be built that way.

dovedescending
March 10, 2010, 02:06 PM
Jerry does say something about pulling the trigger AS you line up on the target. Is that a really stupid idea in a defensive situation? It decreases response time quite a bit...

Quoheleth
March 10, 2010, 02:28 PM
I submit Miculec's competition rules are different than self-defense rules. Getting on the trigger fast to save a split second IN A CONTROLED ENVIRONMENT by a highly trained PROFESSIONAL is one thing in a SPORTING situation. For the AVERAGE CITIZEN, who is not nearly as trained, and in a SELF-DEFENSE SITUATION it is courting disaster.

I suppose it does minimize the reaction time, but if you don't have EXCELLENT trigger control (and I wonder who does under high adrenaline situations) you'll risk dumping shots before you are on target. This is in direct violation to Rule #3 (finger on trigger before sights are on target) and #4 (where will your bullet go if it does AD?). Instead of speed, I would work on being smooth in getting on target and trigger squeeze - like the old saying, smooth is fast.

My 2 cents...
Q

MrBorland
March 10, 2010, 02:32 PM
he holds his revolver VERY differently from Ayoob's method.

Not sure he holds his gun differently, so much as his stance is different. Ayoob's stance sounds like the classic Weaver stance, whereas Jerry uses an isosceles stance.

IMO, it's counterproductive to categorize one as a "defense" stance and the other as a "competition" stance. Competition shooters typically use the isosceles stance because it can make lateral movement easier, which isn't a bad attribute in a defense stance when you think of it.

Bottom line: Both are perfectly acceptable stances: Try both, and use the one that works best for you.

Jerry does say something about pulling the trigger AS you line up on the target. Is that a really stupid idea in a defensive situation?

That's the method competitive shooters use for getting your shot off ASAP, but good competitive shooters are getting a good sight picture before they actually fire the shot. IOW, they aren't mindlessly pulling the trigger; you therefore needs to beware of practicing this inappropriately, lest you get in the habit of pulling the trigger simply because you quickly got the gun on target. If you're not competing, I wouldn't even start doing this. JMHO.

1KPerDay
March 10, 2010, 03:02 PM
Your link doesn't work BTW... looks like you copy/pasted your post from another forum where it was already abbreviated for display.

dovedescending
March 10, 2010, 03:14 PM
As long as I'm rambling (I promise I'll start individual threads in the future), how concealable is an OWB holster like Galco's SILHOUETTE high-ride, for summer carry?

Guillermo
March 10, 2010, 03:15 PM
http://www.myoutdoortv.com/video/videoBCID.php?v=59632999001

looks to me like both Jerry and Massad use a very similar high grip

dovedescending
March 10, 2010, 03:42 PM
What I was refering to was Jerry's bent wrist on his right hand, and the flexed elbows as opposed to locking the arm straight. I find my current technique works pretty well up to about 10 yards, 2.5"-3" groups when drawing quickly from under a shirt, in about 5 seconds tops. Not stellar performance, but much better than I did when I started out. Haven't done much by way of moving and shooting, although I understand a backwards diagonal vector is good?

MrBorland
March 10, 2010, 03:46 PM
What I was refering to was Jerry's bent wrist on his right hand, and the flexed elbows as opposed to locking the arm straight.

Isosceles vs Weaver stance.

David E
March 10, 2010, 04:12 PM
I submit Miculec's competition rules are different than self-defense rules. Getting on the trigger fast to save a split second IN A CONTROLED ENVIRONMENT by a highly trained PROFESSIONAL is one thing in a SPORTING situation. For the AVERAGE CITIZEN, who is not nearly as trained, and in a SELF-DEFENSE SITUATION it is courting disaster.

Yes, as the disaster being courted is that the goodguy is too slow getting off his first shot because he waited until his gun was completely extended before placing his finger on the trigger. Maybe he even uttered an unnecessary, "Drop your weapon!" and waited to see if the badguy complied.

There is "threat managment" and there is defending your life as fast as you possibly can. While there is some overlap, these are very different dynamics.

To determine which one you're dealing with, you need to ask: why are you drawing your gun in the first place?

The answer to that will dictate the proper response. Is he a suspicious fellow poking about by your garage late at night? Or did he just kill 3 people in your presence and now he's bringing his gun to bear on you and your kids?

In the former, it may not be necessary to draw your gun at all, much less begin the trigger pull during the draw.

In the latter, if you wait until your gun is fully extended before even touching the trigger, that 1/4 - 1/2 second could well be the difference between living or not.

The prudent man knows the difference in a heartbeat and masters both dynamics.

9mmepiphany
March 10, 2010, 04:46 PM
you've got a lot of questions going at the same time and you're not setting parameters for answers either. part of getting good/reliable answers is to ask good questions. i'll address the questions that i have training/experience with.

there are 2 paths to training for defensive shooting with a common goal.
1. one path is geared toward limited time/feed back and questionable followup/practice by the shooter.
2. the other is geared toward a shooter who wants to continue to improve through practice

posted by Quoheleth
This is in direct violation to Rule #3 (finger on trigger before sights are on target) and #4 (where will your bullet go if it does AD?).
do you mean that you take your finger off the trigger after each shot while the gun is in recoil?

what Jerry is talking about the key to shooting quickly and accurately and is the method currently taught for defensive use of the revolver. as you fire a shot, you should be resetting your trigger and preping for the next shot...which you fire as your sights return to your target. if you do not wish to fire another shot, you just stop pressing the trigger. if you don't have the ability to stop that trigger movement, i would suggest that you are slapping the trigger to begin with and should get additional training.

to wait until you sights are aligned on the target before starting your trigger press, only puts you further behind the response curve and invites a jerked trigger and misses

For the AVERAGE CITIZEN, who is not nearly as trained, and in a SELF-DEFENSE SITUATION it is courting disaster.

the correct method can be taught in a day, but it does require that the student elects to follow "Path #2" above

dovedescending
March 10, 2010, 05:15 PM
I apologize for my many questions and vague naivety. I'm just so excited to be part of this forum.

9mmepiphany
March 10, 2010, 05:20 PM
questions are a good thing...maybe fewer questions per thread

BTW: welcome to the forum

1KPerDay
March 10, 2010, 05:24 PM
Interesting vid; thanks.

earplug
March 10, 2010, 05:31 PM
Your hand and finger size will determine your best handgun grip.
I think Jerry Miculek has very large paws.
Your holster and grip shape should complement your physical shape and strengths.
Work on a consistent draw. grip and trigger stroke. Don't forget to have you weak hand apply lots of pressure to hold the gun steady and control recoil. This will allow your trigger finger to relax and do its thing.

ArmedBear
March 10, 2010, 06:13 PM
A side note, I wouldn't worry about how competition shooters hold their guns, just like I don't worry about how competition fighters fight. Competition is a watered down game that doesn't usually have too much to do with real life, where your targets fight back. Holding a gun and moving like the competitors do can get you shot, stabbed, disarmed, etc.

One of the best competition shooters around here is also the head firearms instructor for the police academy, where they still have to qualify at 50 yards with a stock Glock .40 -- one of the last places with 50 yard qualification. He also taught for the FBI, and was a field agent for a long time.

He says the "Weaver vs. Isosceles" debate is long-running, but silly. Iscosceles is what shooters under extreme stress will do naturally, EVEN IF they have been extensively trained exclusively using Weaver. The FBI actually tested this on classes of cadets.

The Isosceles is probably more stable for most people, but don't be fooled into thinking that it means that you are in a perfect, stiff triangle. Every individual will find a slightly different stance that works best. For some people, it will look more like a Weaver. For others, it will look more like an Isosceles. Try it for yourself. Get to know your body and your gun.

All of that said, in a close-range defensive situation, don't wait, and don't assume you can get in a distance-shooting stance before you have to fire -- or that said stance won't expose you to danger. What if you are carjacked, for example?

Practice shooting in other positions, like your hands across the front of your body, the gun held close, and shooting across your chest. BE CAREFUL of the forcing cone, ejection port, etc.

9mmepiphany
March 10, 2010, 07:45 PM
while i also advocate learning to shoot from a number of different positions, that isn't how you should start out.

the most important ability is shooting is the ability to hit your target...otherwise, you're just spraying lead and praying for a hit.

once you've learned to stand, grip and control the trigger while holding the sights in alignment on your intended target and are able to consistently place rounds on target, then you're ready to try other things. otherwise it would be learning to gallop on a horse without every learning to mount it

ArmedBear
March 10, 2010, 08:10 PM
Said police/FBI instructor also said that, under stress, in real-world situations, many people shoot one-handed naturally -- and accurately.

I'd say, start with a comfortable variant of Isoceles, learn to hit the target, then branch out. Instruction or coaching can be more valuable than it sounds. There's a lot of subtlety to good pistol shooting, that's not visible to the observer.

9mmepiphany
March 10, 2010, 08:49 PM
Instruction or coaching can be more valuable than it sounds. There's a lot of subtlety to good pistol shooting, that's not visible to the observer.
this is extremely true...reading a book or watching a DVD will give you an idea, but it won't teach you to shoot.

it's like trying to learn karate from a book...and points out the difference between Chinese and Japanese martial arts

230therapy
March 10, 2010, 09:18 PM
My experience with the Hoffners holster is that it failed to release the gun 1/3 of the time. Go with another make and model of holster.

I follow McGivern's method of holding the gun, with some modifications by Miculek. I'm not sure how he developed his grip.

Sam1911
March 10, 2010, 09:48 PM
Having watched both Jerry Miculek and Massad Ayoob shoot the same course of fire on the same day, with greatest respect to both, just do whatever Mr. Jerry does -- if you can! :D Mr. Ayoob was very competent, smooth, and quick. Mr. Jerry was ... himself. And that's close to magic.

Here is the best collection of Jerry's videos I've found (for free): http://www.myoutdoortv.com/pdk/web/smith.html?feedPID=00zG15zm84msK0GbWemanhJ0KNWQYqM4

If you're looking to improve your revolver shooting, I'd watch each of those over many times, practicing with my (unloaded) revolver to try to do just what he shows you. He certainly isn't teaching you any BAD habits! (You do need to understand the idea of "staging" the trigger. It is only used in specific moments and isn't the same thing as clearing your home walking around with the trigger half pulled.)

His techniques are very sound. The things that DON'T translate from competition to the "real world" aren't generally shooting techniques anyway...

I use a Hoffner's IWB "Miurage" holster for my 629 and love it. (See here:http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=6206667&postcount=8) I did make a simple modification, but it has been flawless. Now, I was using it primarily in competition...and I suppose that doesn't translate out to the "real world"... ;)

dovedescending
March 10, 2010, 11:37 PM
Sam, it won't let me access your post. I'm not sure why. 230therapy, do you know exactly what it was that caused the holster to retain so... effectively? My understand is that the retention is adjustable; maybe you had it too tight? Just curious.

Gunfighter123
March 11, 2010, 12:10 AM
A side note, I wouldn't worry about how competition shooters hold their guns, just like I don't worry about how competition fighters fight. Competition is a watered down game that doesn't usually have too much to do with real life, where your targets fight back. Holding a gun and moving like the competitors do can get you shot, stabbed, disarmed, etc.

Sorry but I have to disagree with that part of your post. Competition is the "test bed" for techniques and tactics --------- a person can THINK they are the best but untill you try the same in some sort of "competition" it is all just theory. In the very early days of Mixed Martial Arts { MMA } and still today in "underground" mostly illegal MMA competitions , it was proved what would work and what was for "show" ---- Example , if you hit someone hard enough in the nose , the "nose bone" will be driven into the brain , killing them. ---- How many fighters/football players etc. etc. have had their nose completely crushed and how many have died from it ??

I think be it IPSC , IDPA , 3-gun Action,Skeet, MMA or even Paintball --- any "competitor" that has trained will beat a untrained non-competitor 99 times out of a 100.

I have fought inside and outside the ring --- I've also fought Eskrima full contact stick fighting , yes - we did wear head gear and padded gloves and we did Compete against each other. That is as close as you can get to a "target shooting back" in that form of fighting .

Anyway ------- I use a "Boxers Stance" or some say a Modified Weaver --- my left hand and left foot are forward , left leg is bent a bit , weight is 60% on left leg and 40% on right leg --- you "lean" into the gun to lessen recoil --- same stance if I shoot rifle , shotgun or handguns.

When I shoot either revolvers or semi-autos , both my elbows are SLIGHTLY bent to the ground ---- if both elbows are locked straight out , the handgun will Recoil MORE. If you doubt this ---- clasp both hands together and lock your arms/elbows straight out. Now have a six year old pull down on your fists ---- then , try the same thing with both elbows bent and tell us which way is more "solid" .

Sam1911
March 11, 2010, 07:44 AM
Dovedecending, that is strange...works for me.

How about this: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=499603

That's the whole thread. Scroll down a bit to see the pics and description of my Hoffner's rig.

dovedescending
March 11, 2010, 09:50 AM
It says I don't have permission to access the page... BUT I did some searching on the forum, and found the pics. Looks like a decent rig.

Sam1911
March 11, 2010, 11:21 AM
Dovedecending: I fixed the links. Should work fine now!

RatDrall
March 11, 2010, 12:15 PM
Sorry but I have to disagree with that part of your post. Competition is the "test bed" for techniques and tactics --------- a person can THINK they are the best but untill you try the same in some sort of "competition" it is all just theory. In the very early days of Mixed Martial Arts { MMA } and still today in "underground" mostly illegal MMA competitions , it was proved what would work and what was for "show" ---- Example , if you hit someone hard enough in the nose , the "nose bone" will be driven into the brain , killing them. ---- How many fighters/football players etc. etc. have had their nose completely crushed and how many have died from it ??

I think be it IPSC , IDPA , 3-gun Action,Skeet, MMA or even Paintball --- any "competitor" that has trained will beat a untrained non-competitor 99 times out of a 100.

I have fought inside and outside the ring --- I've also fought Eskrima full contact stick fighting , yes - we did wear head gear and padded gloves and we did Compete against each other. That is as close as you can get to a "target shooting back" in that form of fighting .

Anyway ------- I use a "Boxers Stance" or some say a Modified Weaver --- my left hand and left foot are forward , left leg is bent a bit , weight is 60% on left leg and 40% on right leg --- you "lean" into the gun to lessen recoil --- same stance if I shoot rifle , shotgun or handguns.

When I shoot either revolvers or semi-autos , both my elbows are SLIGHTLY bent to the ground ---- if both elbows are locked straight out , the handgun will Recoil MORE. If you doubt this ---- clasp both hands together and lock your arms/elbows straight out. Now have a six year old pull down on your fists ---- then , try the same thing with both elbows bent and tell us which way is more "solid" .

I agree with you on your points, but the problem is still that in the ring there are rules, and rules create bad habits for warriors where more is on the line than losing a match.

Many an MMA fighter has been stabbed because they tried to use what wins in the ring, in the real world where people have knives.

Shooting at a stationary target from a stationary position is about as realistic training for a gunfight as hitting a punching bag is training for a street fight.

I'm not trying to argue that competition is totally worthless, it is good for teaching some basic skills, what I'm trying to communicate is that competition can teach some bad habits that could be very very dangerous in real life. If one is concerned about being proficient with a carry gun they should be very careful about who they emulate, and pay more attention to dedicated warriors than dedicated competitors. Not to say that a warrior can't compete, just that they focus on different things.

Sam1911
March 11, 2010, 01:01 PM
Shooting at a stationary target from a stationary position is about as realistic training for a gunfight as hitting a punching bag is training for a street fight.Fortunately some of the more relevant competition styles include very few stationary position shots and quite a few moving targets as well.

If you have the ability to TRAIN in a manner that is more realistic than an IDPA (or even USPSA) match, that's WONDERFUL. Most people, however, do not.

How many folks refuse to go shoot IDPA because they "don't want to learn bad habits from competition," and so instead shoot what...? Static range bullseyes? "Practical" courses of fire they set up themselves? (Which are better than IDPA stages HOW?)

If you say, "I don't shoot competition because they teach bad habits," fine.

Can you also say, "Instead, I have a training regimen that gives me just as much range time and skills development on complex shooting problems as competition would, but without the 'negatives?'" If not, then you're probably misleading yourself.

No one can practice getting shot at. No one can practice shooting real, live, attacking human beings. ANY training is a compromise -- an incomplete representation of reality. More shots on target is better than less, period. If you want to claim that competition is not relevant, then you have to substitute an equivalent intensity of training that IS so, or you're just fooling yourself.

Gunfighter123
March 11, 2010, 01:02 PM
Hi RD,
I think me and you are in agreement about most things as to training , tactics , and such. The OP , Dove , sounded like a relitively new shooter and I just wanted him to try to understand my feelings that there was some "merit" to getting involved in some form of competition.
Like you , I also think that ANY "gun game" can ingrain bad habits for the "street" --- most seasoned competitors will realise this and also train for a real life threat.
Play safe and have fun ---- GF123

RatDrall
March 11, 2010, 01:48 PM
Fortunately some of the more relevant competition styles include very few stationary position shots and quite a few moving targets as well.

If you have the ability to TRAIN in a manner that is more realistic than an IDPA (or even USPSA) match, that's WONDERFUL. Most people, however, do not.

How many folks refuse to go shoot IDPA because they "don't want to learn bad habits from competition," and so instead shoot what...? Static range bullseyes? "Practical" courses of fire they set up themselves? (Which are better than IDPA stages HOW?)

If you say, "I don't shoot competition because they teach bad habits," fine.

Can you also say, "Instead, I have a training regimen that gives me just as much range time and skills development on complex shooting problems as competition would, but without the 'negatives?'" If not, then you're probably misleading yourself.

No one can practice getting shot at. No one can practice shooting real, live, attacking human beings. ANY training is a compromise -- an incomplete representation of reality. More shots on target is better than less, period. If you want to claim that competition is not relevant, then you have to substitute an equivalent intensity of training that IS so, or you're just fooling yourself.

I'm not saying that competition is bad, I'm saying that many of the finer points of competition shouldn't be worried about in regards to defensive shooting. Unless I read wrong, the OP was confused about whose technique to follow: a defensive instructor and a competition champion.

Hi RD,
I think me and you are in agreement about most things as to training , tactics , and such.

Agreed!

Sam1911
March 11, 2010, 02:15 PM
Unless I read wrong, the OP was confused about whose technique to follow: a defensive instructor and a competition champion.


I'll sum my point up this way: When learning the legal aspects, the "social" aspects, situational awareness, creating space and time to react, and such things, follow the advice of a defensive shooting instructor that you trust.

But, when you're learning the "simple" stuff like grip, trigger control, reloading, stance, and the other details that J.M. is showing in that video, learn from the better SHOOTER.

So M. Ayoob uses a "modified Weaver" stance (sounds like) and Jerry M. uses an isosceles stance? That's not a skills choice that you should make dependent on whether you're "defensive shooting" or in competition. There is nothing in J.M.'s videos (applied correctly) that would be a liability on the street. It's all basic gun-handling.

Sure, he's not covering how to create space and sequencing your attackers while shooting on the move. He's not teaching what to say to the police when you call 911. He's not teaching how to shoot from retention. If you're looking for that kind of stuff, go to a defensive shooting instructor.

If you're trying to get your gun-handling, speed, & accuracy skills tuned up, you're just wasting a defensive shooting instructor's time. That's not his instructional specialty.

IMHO

SwampWolf
March 11, 2010, 02:26 PM
So I guess I should admire the hell out of Jerry and just keep doing what I've been doing...

You gave yourself some pretty good advice, actually. And a hearty welcome to THR!

ArmedBear
March 11, 2010, 03:40 PM
So M. Ayoob uses a "modified Weaver" stance (sounds like) and Jerry M. uses an isosceles stance? That's not a skills choice that you should make dependent on whether you're "defensive shooting" or in competition. There is nothing in J.M.'s videos (applied correctly) that would be a liability on the street. It's all basic gun-handling.

Bingo.

That was why I brought up the highly successful local competitive shooter who has also been an FBI field agent (where he had to use his guns, a lot, against real people trying to really kill him with real bullets), an FBI shooting instructor, and is now in his "retirement" still the head of the local police academy firearms instruction program -- where they qual at contact distance, and out to 50 yards.

He will tell you that there's no fundamental difference in shooting techniques. Good shooting is good shooting.

There's a difference in the situation, and different situations can call for different techniques.

(BTW he has won different types of competitions, from PPC to NRA Bullseye, goes to Camp Perry every year to compete, etc. His -- admittedly broad -- skillset is as useful for one-handed accuracy as for action shooting.)

BCRider
March 11, 2010, 06:11 PM
Going back to Jerry's videos for a moment I don't see anything that contradicts Ayoob's description on the hold other than for the big caliber hand cannons. That is the only spot where Jerry advises to hold a little low so the recoil causes a little more muzzle rise and eases the felt recoil in the hand. For all the other guns including his .45ACP revolver used in matches he tries his best to bury it in his grip. Mind you there's also some minor exceptions made with the little carry guns which, as I recall, he said he had to modify because of his hands. I took that to be the large size of his hands since there's no doubt at all that he has hands the size of Sasquatch's.... :D

On the topic of shooting in competitions. I'll just toss in that right or wrong, bad or good there is one thing that matches provide that you won't get from any amount of practice. And that is shooting while under stress and with at least a minor shot of adrenaline in the system. I've seen perfectly comfortable practice shooters turn into a quivering ball of Jello once the timer beeps in their ear and they know they are being scored and need to work fast. Habits and movements that seemed solid looking at them in practice turn to dust in the wind as soon as the adrenaline hits their arteries. If competition does nothing else it will at least help a person to work through this adrenaline fog that so many secumb to and learn to follow at least their practiced patterns under stress. It may not be perfect and the stress of competition may be very minor compared to the stress of a life or death situation but learning to perform with ANY amount of adrenaline pumping through the system is a real plus for a lot of people that suffer these apparent meltdowns at even a match level of stress.

Mind you some can face the timer with no real adrenaline spike. I tend to be one of those because I'm more worried about running and shooting through my matches in a safe manner first and for best time and score a distant second. I've personally gotten far bigger adrenaline charges at the prospect of being shot out in paintball games played in the woods where you soon begin seeing opponents behind every tree.

General Geoff
March 11, 2010, 08:37 PM
No one can practice getting shot at.

Well, you could, but it's only slightly less insane than practicing jumping off a cliff.. ;)

230therapy
March 11, 2010, 08:48 PM
Incorrectly made with too much contact in one area (didn't analyze it). I loosened the retention screw 100% and it still occurred. Even when the gun would come out, there was a very narrow angle from which it had to be drawn. My main complaint was their unwillingness to fix it on their dime. I wasn't going to put more money into a holster.

RatDrall
March 11, 2010, 09:00 PM
No one can practice getting shot at.

Some people do:

http://www.suarezinternationalstore.com/march27-282010-forceonforcegunfighting-limaoh.aspx

Sam1911
March 11, 2010, 10:39 PM
Of course, there is force-on-force training. Incredibly valuable -- as an addition to live fire training.

Or are you contending that you get enough force-on-force practice that "action/practical" live fire is irrelevant for you?

gunnie
March 12, 2010, 12:06 PM
..."Every individual will find a slightly different stance that works best....Try it for yourself. Get to know your body and your gun."...

well thought out advice given by Mr. A. Bear, above. i have to take exception to those who know the ONLY correct way, taught by the ONLY correct individual. look at the widely varied methods used by some of the icons of the sport/trade. they can be as different as their fingerprints. what works for you will be the deciding factor. try every different style you can, and make your own conclusions. even in the methods you settle upon, you will find that target use and SHTF use will be dramaticly different.

i would love to be a present for a debate (were it still possible), of "correct" handgun shooting methods between jeff cooper, skeeter skelton, charles askins, elmer kieth, ed mcgivern, jerry miculek, etc...

i would do so with a predetermined level of hostility that would send me seeking cover when it was reached. and i SURE AS HELL would not challenge any of them to prove they were correct.

gunnie

ArmedBear
March 12, 2010, 02:24 PM
Well, I shot a 50-round after work match last night. I switched from Weaver, which I used last time, to Isosceles this time.

My score went up one point. It's isosceles for me!:D

1KPerDay
March 12, 2010, 04:57 PM
That's pretty difinitive evidence. *cough* :D

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