Best ammo for mouse guns.22LR .22MAG .25ACP, .32ACP and .380


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stinger 327
March 10, 2010, 11:46 PM
I have been told that the best load for stopping in these small calibers or the best it can get is FMJ because you get better penetration in hopes of hitting a vital organ.
The hollow points were not favored because in these calibers the bullet didn't travel at a high enough velocity to expand. I don't know if this would apply to .22 MAG. or those hyper velocity .22 LR like Stingers, Viper, Yellow Jacket and the Stinger segmented HP since these don't come in FMJ form and are very hot loads:what:

I tested a .25 ACP in different types of bullets i.e FMJ, hollow points and Magsafe fragmented round.
The Magsafe appeared to do the most devistating damage into a 2 x 4 piece of hardwood. Then again this type of load has been known to create large superficial wounds but not enough penetration to do any harm. When I saw it in the 2 x 4 it penetrated well.

What do you think?

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hammerklavier
March 11, 2010, 12:00 AM
Remington Golden Sabre for the .380, it's one of the heaviest fastest loads you can buy without going into +P territory.

When using FMJ, be sure you're not getting a downloaded target round.

stinger 327
March 11, 2010, 12:04 AM
Remington Golden Sabre for the .380, it's one of the heaviest fastest loads you can buy without going into +P territory.

When using FMJ, be sure you're not getting a downloaded target round.
What's a downloaded target round? Do you mean bulk buy ammo. It should be a personal protection round like those in the 20-pack?

hammerklavier
March 11, 2010, 11:06 AM
See if you can find the muzzle ballistics for the ammo you're thinking about. If you're getting FMJs, you'll want something nearly as hot as what you find available in the hollow point self defense loads.

And as far as .22LR is concerned, do not buy anything marked as target ammo, that stuff is mostly subsonic to make it more accurate (good for suppressors, though) :)

Rshooter
March 11, 2010, 02:11 PM
With .380 I use the CorBons hollow point. FMJ is for military and practice.

NG VI
March 11, 2010, 02:17 PM
In .22 I like Aguila's 60 grain SSS, you might as well push the heaviest solid you can from a pocket .22, and it isn't downloaded at all. Actually it's pretty hot for a .22

makarovnik
March 11, 2010, 06:01 PM
I would advise not trying to run the same ammo through all of those.

sidheshooter
March 11, 2010, 06:10 PM
In .22, I'd personally go with high velocity (not hyper velocity) solids, whatever is most reliable.

In .25 acp, I'd go with a .380. :)

in .32, maybe the silvertip, since it gets good press from folks who purport to study these things (but only if it is totally reliable in the pistol).

In .380, I'm using fiocchi xtp, because I like the bullet's design compromise and I can find it in enough quantity to practice and function test with it.

JMO, FWIW.

searcher451
March 11, 2010, 06:37 PM
http://www.goldenloki.com/ammo/gel/380acp/gel380acp.htm

http://www.handloads.com/misc/stoppingpower.asp?Caliber=0&Weight=All

http://www.ballisticstestinggroup.org/

http://www.ktrange.com/articles/a10/a10-14.html

http://www.brassfetcher.com/

Perhaps some of these will help.

Quiet
March 11, 2010, 07:20 PM
I carry a .32ACP.
I have used Winchester 60gr silvertip HPs and Fiocchi 73gr FMJ.
I prefer the Focchi 73gr FMJ due to the deeper penetration.

I though about using the Sellier & Bellot 73gr (steel jacketed, lead core, brass case, berdan primed) FMJ, bt not sure how the steel jacketed rounds would fare through my Kel-Tec. I heard it's suppose to be subgun only ammo (Vz61 Skorpion).

KevinR
March 11, 2010, 08:06 PM
I like the 380 but the availability is ridicules right now. I think I am going tomorrow to get the stuff to reload my own.

HisSoldier
March 11, 2010, 08:26 PM
I've been loading .25 ACP up quite a bit, getting over 1000 FPS with 50 grain FMJ. (1.9 grains Bullseye)

Today I got some Gold Dots that could use the velocity. These are only 35 grains, so with that load above it would probably be going more like 1100 FPS.

The little gun won't take that forever though, and has had malfunctions from slide bounce. That was in the little Astra Cub, which is a surprisingly accurate little gun.
The only reason I've done that is because of all the talk about how anemic they are in self defense, but I shoot it for fun! I'll probably be loading back down to high 800's in the future, though 1000 FPS with the tiny Gold Dot probably isn't hard on the gun.

Oddly enough I've never tried to load .380 toward the top of it's capabilities.

MachIVshooter
March 11, 2010, 08:28 PM
.22 LR-CCI Mini-Mag. The Stingers and other hyper-velocity cartridges are kinda like the .22 WMR, in that they use slower powders that are more conducive to rifle barrel lengths. They gain very little if anything over a standard high velocity round from handguns. Stingers gained a whopping 10 FPE (75 vs. 65) over value-pack Remington ammo in my NAA mini.

.22 WMR-CCI Maxi-Mag +V. This round gave the best performance in my NAA mini 1-5/8", coming close to 100 FPE. Others were 80-90

.25 ACP-FMJ, pick a brand. They all make about 65 FPE. I've tested the SPeer 35 gr. gold dots, both factory and handloaded. They do expand violently and reliably, but they get very poor penetration.

.32 ACP-Winchester 60 gr. Silvertips. Reliable expansion, and they get about as much penetration as ball ammo in my testing on clay.

.380 ACP-Remington Golden Saber. I handload them a bit hotter than factory (260 FPE vs. 200), but the factory stuff performs well too. My loads penetrated all the way though a 12" block of clay covered in 2 layers of denim. The bullet atop the block is an unfired slug.

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n117/Hunter2506/380goldensabrejpg.jpg

Here is the recovered bullet, cleaned. The jacket separated and was at about 7", while the core continued through:

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n117/Hunter2506/100_0498.jpg

That said, I only carry .380 & up. With the P3AT being so small and light, there's really not a compelling reason to carry a smaller caliber.

HisSoldier
March 11, 2010, 10:22 PM
A self defensive handgun instructor told us about a guy who came into a home, shot the head of the household in the center mass area with 5 .40 S&W's, and the shootee got out of his chair and almost beat the shooter to death before expiring.

There are many people who have died after one shot with a .25 auto, so bullet placement is king, of course, or,,,is it luck?. Those center mass shots should have done it instantly though, go figure.

There is a youtube video of an instructor showing how to use a mousegun for self defense, but I can't find it now. He gets up close and pumps the whole magazine into the face and throat area.

If someone started shooting at me from across the street and all I had was a handgun I'd sure hope it was my 10MM Razorback, and not my PT3AT.

But I don't want to lug the Razorback around all the time.

stinger 327
March 11, 2010, 11:52 PM
See if you can find the muzzle ballistics for the ammo you're thinking about. If you're getting FMJs, you'll want something nearly as hot as what you find available in the hollow point self defense loads.

And as far as .22LR is concerned, do not buy anything marked as target ammo, that stuff is mostly subsonic to make it more accurate (good for suppressors, though) :)
I see. The Magsafe loads in a .25ACP is something like 1,200 fps it sure did do more damage than the HP and FMJ went in deeper too. A very devistating violent round. Magsafe makes these in all calibers. They are very light in weight but travel very fast and release shot into the target.

stinger 327
March 11, 2010, 11:55 PM
See if you can find the muzzle ballistics for the ammo you're thinking about. If you're getting FMJs, you'll want something nearly as hot as what you find available in the hollow point self defense loads.

And as far as .22LR is concerned, do not buy anything marked as target ammo, that stuff is mostly subsonic to make it more accurate (good for suppressors, though) :)
For the .22 LR the best I have found are the CCI Stingers travel around 1,600 fps.
Aguilar sells a hollow point and flat point in the 1,750 and 1,700 fps range.
CCI has a stinger segmented HP but I haven't heard anything about that and haven't been able to find it to purchase it. The Remington has 2 the Viper and the Yellow Jacket somewhere in that 1,500 to 1,600 fps range. At this time the Aguilar brand from Mexico is the fastest highest velocity .22 LR.

stinger 327
March 12, 2010, 12:01 AM
.22 LR-CCI Mini-Mag. The Stingers and other hyper-velocity cartridges are kinda like the .22 WMR, in that they use slower powders that are more conducive to rifle barrel lengths. They gain very little if anything over a standard high velocity round from handguns. Stingers gained a whopping 10 FPE (75 vs. 65) over value-pack Remington ammo in my NAA mini.

.22 WMR-CCI Maxi-Mag +V. This round gave the best performance in my NAA mini 1-5/8", coming close to 100 FPE. Others were 80-90

.25 ACP-FMJ, pick a brand. They all make about 65 FPE. I've tested the SPeer 35 gr. gold dots, both factory and handloaded. They do expand violently and reliably, but they get very poor penetration.

.32 ACP-Winchester 60 gr. Silvertips. Reliable expansion, and they get about as much penetration as ball ammo in my testing on clay.

.380 ACP-Remington Golden Saber. I handload them a bit hotter than factory (260 FPE vs. 200), but the factory stuff performs well too. My loads penetrated all the way though a 12" block of clay covered in 2 layers of denim. The bullet atop the block is an unfired slug.

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n117/Hunter2506/380goldensabrejpg.jpg

Here is the recovered bullet, cleaned. The jacket separated and was at about 7", while the core continued through:

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n117/Hunter2506/100_0498.jpg

That said, I only carry .380 & up. With the P3AT being so small and light, there's really not a compelling reason to carry a smaller caliber.
There isn't much of a choice for a .25ACP. Most of the time I see the Winchester ammo that has a BB in the nose which has been around forever. I believe I have seen .25 by the Speer Lawman? The Geico .25 is a full metal jacket from Germany that I heard good things about but it is no longer in current production so that would have to come from someone's collection. I have seen Fiochi .25 ammo .
What get my curiousity is why do these smaller calibers cost more than the standard 9mm, .45, .357. Less metal less power, smaller cartridges and not many choices in type of bullet.

mbt2001
March 12, 2010, 01:18 AM
The reason that most MOUSE GUN CARRIERS USE FMJ's is because MOST MOUSE GUNS PREFER FMJ's. I use the mag safe FMJ's for my .25 save for the first load. The first load is hornady controlled expansion round, since I don't have to worry about feeding with round 1.

The .25 is an odd round with as much myth surrounding it as just about any cartridge out there, maybe more. As a surprise gun, or a gun to a knife fight, or an only guy with a gun gun it works fine. I wouldn't want to storm the Bastille with it, but it has it's place. I carry it when walking the mutts in the summer time.

A lot of animals die each year to the .22 and it is about the same as the .25 if you compare them from similar barrel lengths.

NOTE - I think Hornadys controlled expansion rounds will end up sweeping the mouse gun category, the provide FMJ feeding with HP expansion.

stinger 327
March 12, 2010, 01:26 AM
The reason that most MOUSE GUN CARRIERS USE FMJ's is because MOST MOUSE GUNS PREFER FMJ's. I use the mag safe FMJ's for my .25 save for the first load. The first load is hornady controlled expansion round, since I don't have to worry about feeding with round 1.

The .25 is an odd round with as much myth surrounding it as just about any cartridge out there, maybe more. As a surprise gun, or a gun to a knife fight, or an only guy with a gun gun it works fine. I wouldn't want to storm the Bastille with it, but it has it's place. I carry it when walking the mutts in the summer time.

A lot of animals die each year to the .22 and it is about the same as the .25 if you compare them from similar barrel lengths.

NOTE - I think Hornadys controlled expansion rounds will end up sweeping the mouse gun category, the provide FMJ feeding with HP expansion.
iF YOU HAVE SHOT THOSE .25 ACP MAGSAFES THEN YOU KNOW HOW DEVISTATING THEY ARE.

mbt2001
March 12, 2010, 01:48 AM
I should have said MAG TECH

http://www.natchezss.com/images/products/_med/MG380A_med.jpg

sorry... Just standard FMJ cheapies.

stinger 327
March 12, 2010, 03:05 AM
I should have said MAG TECH

http://www.natchezss.com/images/products/_med/MG380A_med.jpg

sorry... Just standard FMJ cheapies.
How about Fiochi ammo aren't' those hotter loads?

MachIVshooter
March 12, 2010, 09:33 AM
For the .22 LR the best I have found are the CCI Stingers travel around 1,600 fps.
Aguilar sells a hollow point and flat point in the 1,750 and 1,700 fps range.
CCI has a stinger segmented HP but I haven't heard anything about that and haven't been able to find it to purchase it. The Remington has 2 the Viper and the Yellow Jacket somewhere in that 1,500 to 1,600 fps range. At this time the Aguilar brand from Mexico is the fastest highest velocity .22 LR.

Those are rifle velocities, and the bullets are very light weight, lightly constructed HP's. The average velocity I recorded for the 32 grain CCI stinger from the 3" barrel of a Phoenix HP-22 was 1,030 FPS for 75 ft/lbs. The Remington "Golden Bullet" hit 940 FPS with a 40 grain pill from the same gun, giving 79 ft/lbs.

Stingers, Velocitors, Viper etc. are designed for close range varmint shooting with rifles.

dom1104
March 12, 2010, 09:47 AM
22lr gains an INSANE amount of power for a rifle barrel. It is beyond anemic out of a pistol. Any home tests you do will be eye opening.

I agree completly with MachIV, there is no reason to go anything sub 380 with the LCP, P3AT options now.

The other calibers are frankly obsolete for SD.

Someone is going to tell me I am wrong, and some story of .25acp but its simply a fact. There is good better and best and of those options the .380 is the best.

benderx4
March 12, 2010, 10:15 AM
Didn't the Israeli Mossad assassins carry Beretta 70s Jaguars with .22LR? Seems like shot placement would be key. I use CCI stingers in my Cheetah 87.

BTW, as a side note, my new FN 5.7x28 is barely bigger than my .22 rounds but it generates almost 2200fps at the muzzle of my handgun, not the carbine. Twenty and thirty round mags are the norm -yooza, starting to be my new favorite toy.

I've got a bunch of little Beretta Jetfires hidden around the house in .25acp for those home invasion situations where I wouldn't have the chance to grab the .45acp or the 12 gauge. Fiochi works like a charm with these guns.

My Seecamp LWS32 travels with me outside the home in my pocket. Hope I never use it, but should the opportunity arise, I have no doubt it will do the job. Speer Gold Dots, Silvertips, and Corbon XTPs all work awesome in this gun.

As for the inevitable zombie attack? Got a couple LWRCs waiting for those guys. 5.56 for most of them, 6.8 spc for the fat guys. (And don't forget about that FN!)

w_houle
March 12, 2010, 10:18 AM
(.22lr) I didn't know the chronograph difference between Mini-Mag and Stinger, I just knew I felt more recoil from the Stingers so just assumed it was sending more hurt down range
(.380 ACP) For the amount of time spent touting PMC, you'd swear I was selling the stuff (I don't). Not too sure what damage it does, I just know it's reliably fed in everything I tried it with :eek:
Hmm... as far a .25 ACP goes (not far :neener: )? It's not a round for squaring off with someone. Granted I would rather have it than a knife, but anyway:rolleyes: I would say it's more of a "Get off me!" round... either that or something to make them duck while you run. So on that effect: Anything that feeds will do, and besides I doubt the factory loaded hollow points will open up much.
That leaves us with .22wmr and .32 ACP. I've wanted a gun in each, but not enough to actually go out and buy one of either. Although when I find a PMR-30; I'll buy it. Still can't seem to get excited over a .32 ACP though:(

MachIVshooter
March 12, 2010, 10:30 AM
Didn't the Israeli Mossad assassins carry Beretta 70s Jaguars with .22LR? Seems like shot placement would be key.

So has just about every other agency doing such work. Yes, a .22 LR to the back of the head from 3 feet out of a supressed pistol will certainly put someone down.

In a defensive situation, headshots are gonna be very difficult, and hitting that magical little ping-pong ball sized medulla that the assasins drill is next to impossible from the front with a low powered cartridge like the .22 LR, especially in a dynamic SD situation.

cablebandit
March 12, 2010, 11:42 AM
I'm planning on trying out the Hornady Critical Defense for my LCP, once I get enough rounds downrange to be sure it feeds well.

stinger 327
March 12, 2010, 11:44 AM
So has just about every other agency doing such work. Yes, a .22 LR to the back of the head from 3 feet out of a supressed pistol will certainly put someone down.

In a defensive situation, headshots are gonna be very difficult, and hitting that magical little ping-pong ball sized medulla that the assasins drill is next to impossible from the front with a low powered cartridge like the .22 LR, especially in a dynamic SD situation.
I have heard in certain situations the .22 LR was the caliber of choice by assasins at close range.

stinger 327
March 12, 2010, 11:50 AM
Didn't the Israeli Mossad assassins carry Beretta 70s Jaguars with .22LR? Seems like shot placement would be key. I use CCI stingers in my Cheetah 87.

BTW, as a side note, my new FN 5.7x28 is barely bigger than my .22 rounds but it generates almost 2200fps at the muzzle of my handgun, not the carbine. Twenty and thirty round mags are the norm -yooza, starting to be my new favorite toy.

I've got a bunch of little Beretta Jetfires hidden around the house in .25acp for those home invasion situations where I wouldn't have the chance to grab the .45acp or the 12 gauge. Fiochi works like a charm with these guns.

My Seecamp LWS32 travels with me outside the home in my pocket. Hope I never use it, but should the opportunity arise, I have no doubt it will do the job. Speer Gold Dots, Silvertips, and Corbon XTPs all work awesome in this gun.

As for the inevitable zombie attack? Got a couple LWRCs waiting for those guys. 5.56 for most of them, 6.8 spc for the fat guys. (And don't forget about that FN!)
Zombie attack yes the worst nightmare scenario case. You better have tons of ammo to shoot em down.

HisSoldier
March 13, 2010, 06:18 PM
I just chronoed 35 grain Gold Dot .251" JHP's over 1.9 grains of Bullseye, consistently over 1100 FPS, 1145 FPS average. They didn't open at all going through a 1 lb coffee can filled with water, whatever that means, it's only 6" across. I sure as heck wouldn't want to be shot with that.
But as I said, I carry a .380.

mustang_steve
March 13, 2010, 09:22 PM
22lr is a versatile round, but IMO it's best suited for point blank due to it's very low energy level as well as small wound channel...this would make it best to use very close where the odds of getting the lead to go where you intend is at it's best. Especially when we're talking about NAA mini-revolvers....they may hit decently out to 15yds, but I wouldn't consider relying on them at that distance due to the VERY short sight distance and the problems that will bring.

Anything can be an effective defensive round if used in a manner that they would excel in.

The thing to keep in mind with .22lr/mag is it's a rifle round in a pistol, thus massive losses in pressure due to not having enough barrel for the powder to burn completely.

stinger 327
March 13, 2010, 10:04 PM
22lr is a versatile round, but IMO it's best suited for point blank due to it's very low energy level as well as small wound channel...this would make it best to use very close where the odds of getting the lead to go where you intend is at it's best. Especially when we're talking about NAA mini-revolvers....they may hit decently out to 15yds, but I wouldn't consider relying on them at that distance due to the VERY short sight distance and the problems that will bring.

Anything can be an effective defensive round if used in a manner that they would excel in.

The thing to keep in mind with .22lr/mag is it's a rifle round in a pistol, thus massive losses in pressure due to not having enough barrel for the powder to burn completely.
Does alot more damage than pepper spray.

stinger 327
March 13, 2010, 10:05 PM
I just chronoed 35 grain Gold Dot .251" JHP's over 1.9 grains of Bullseye, consistently over 1100 FPS, 1145 FPS average. They didn't open at all going through a 1 lb coffee can filled with water, whatever that means, it's only 6" across. I sure as heck wouldn't want to be shot with that.
But as I said, I carry a .380.
Is the the Gold Dot Hollow Point in .25 ACP?

maxpeters
March 13, 2010, 10:26 PM
I don't think I would carry a .22 lr. or a 25acp on purpose, if I needed to rely on it to protect me, but they can be used for protection if that's all you have.
I see no problem with the .32 acp or the .380acp, or even the 9x18. The .22 magnum is ok I guess. The only probelm is you need a lot of barrel length to be effective.

At least small calibers are allowed to be discussed on this forum. I used to belong to the concealed carry forum, and I wrote something about small caliber weapons that the moderator did not agree with. My post lasted about 5 min. before it disapeared.
Said he would not tolerate any mention of "mouse guns" on that forum.

Oh well.

stinger 327
March 13, 2010, 10:31 PM
I don't think I would carry a .22 lr. or a 25acp on purpose, if I needed to rely on it to protect me, but they can be used for protection if that's all you have.
I see no problem with the .32 acp or the .380acp, or even the 9x18. The .22 magnum is ok I guess. The only probelm is you need a lot of barrel length to be effective.

At least small calibers are allowed to be discussed on this forum. I used to belong to the concealed carry forum, and I wrote something about small caliber weapons that the moderator did not agree with. My post lasted about 5 min. before it disapeared.
Said he would not tolerate any mention of "mouse guns" on that forum.

Oh well.
These guns are easily concealed.

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