Question about selling a firearm...


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boostedxt
March 11, 2010, 09:22 PM
I have a 9mm I am trying to sell. A gentleman contacted me here locally wanting to buy it. My question is this....

he currently owns firearms, has a class III permit. However the issue is this. he lives here in colorado but he is not yet a resident. I called around to a few gun shops and they all stated that it doesn't matter because in colorado we apparently can private party sell to anyone unless we know they are a felon and cannot legally possess a firearm. I however want to have the actual colorado law stating this.....ignorance is not a viable defense should anything go down.

i will be doing the bill of sale from here. if this is illegal I will NOT do it.

Thanks

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nalioth
March 11, 2010, 09:37 PM
How can you live somewhere (not to mention buy NFA weapons) and not be a resident?


This has been covered a few times before here on THR.

boostedxt
March 11, 2010, 09:40 PM
student, military, temporary employment. I lived in many places while retaining my Massachusetts residency

Enachos
March 11, 2010, 09:47 PM
... "This has been covered a few times before here on THR."

I can't stand hearing this line! No offense, nalioth, but EVERYTHING has already been discussed on THR!

... Please excuse him, boostedxt!

boostedxt
March 11, 2010, 09:51 PM
after more digging I have come across this....thoughts?

18 U.S.C. 922 (d): Unlawful to Transfer
It is unlawful for any person to transfer a firearm or ammunition to any person who:
1. Is under indictment for or has been convicted of a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding a
year (typically felonies - would appear to include class 1 misdemeanor in Colorado);
2. Is a fugitive from justice;
3. Is an unlawful user of/addicted to any controlled substance;
4. Has been adjudicated mental defective or committed to mental institution;
5. Is an alien and is illegally or unlawfully in the U.S. or admitted under a nonimmigrant visa;
6. Has been dishonorably discharged from armed forces;
7. Has renounced US citizenship;
8. Is subject to a domestic violence permanent restraining order;
9. Has been convicted of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence.

and

18 U.S.C. 922(n): Unlawful to receive
It is unlawful for any person who is under indictment for a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year to receive any firearm or ammunition that has been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce.

The gun will NOT be shipped...he lives in the same town as me.

Thanks

nalioth
March 11, 2010, 10:13 PM
I don't think we're getting all the info we need.

boostedxt
March 11, 2010, 10:43 PM
what other info do you want? I will gladdly tell you the whole deal..:) I want for this to be 100% legal

Sam1911
March 11, 2010, 10:57 PM
has a class III permitNo, he doesn't. He may own some registered Title II firearms (what most people think of, incorrectly, as "Class 3" guns) but there is no "permit" for this. Each gun is registered individually with its own background checks, fingerprints, forms, $200 fee, tax stamp, etc.

"Class 03" refers to the Special Occupational Tax a Federal Firearms License holder must pay in order to deal in (sell, transfer) firearms, silencers, and destructive devices that must be registered under Title II of the National Firearms Act of 1934.

If he told you he has a "Class 3" permit, he's misleading you. Or at the very least being quite sloppy about his terms. No one who has submitted Form 1s or Form 4s, paid their money, and received their tax stamps thinks they've been granted a "Class 3 permit." (Well...one would hope.)

(If he told you he owns machine guns and you assumed the permit thing, that's different.)

Back to your original question -- One of our more legally minded contributors, NavyLT, has posted this on the matter:


27 CFR 478.11

Quote:
State of residence. The State in which an individual resides. An individual resides in a State if he or she is present in a State with the intention of making a home in that State. If an individual is on active duty as a member of the Armed Forces, the individual's State of residence is the State in which his or her permanent duty station is located. An alien who is legally in the United States shall be considered to be a resident of a State only if the alien is residing in the State and has resided in the State for a period of at least 90 days prior to the date of sale or delivery of a firearm. The following are examples that illustrate this definition:

Example 1. A maintains a home in State X. A travels to State Y on a hunting, fishing, business, or other type of trip. A does not become a resident of State Y by reason of such trip.

Example 2. A is a U.S. citizen and maintains a home in State X and a home in State Y. A resides in State X except for weekends or the summer months of the year and in State Y for the weekends or the summer months of the year. During the time that A actually resides in State X, A is a resident of State X, and during the time that A actually resides in State Y, A is a resident of State Y.

Example 3. A, an alien, travels on vacation or on a business trip to State X. Regardless of the length of time A spends in State X, A does not have a State of residence in State X. This is because A does not have a home in State X at which he has resided for at least 90 days.

SO, according to the things you have told us, he "is present in a State with the intention of making a home in that State." It seems you've done your due diligence.

boostedxt
March 11, 2010, 11:20 PM
I asked him his knowledge of firearms and if he is legally able to own a firearm. he replied with...."Yes..i currently have 2 shotguns 1 being a home defense, 1 being hunting, a 308 for hunting, a Colt AR15, as well as a few other pieces." He is a student here in Colorado and according to him upon graduation plans on making it his home. I, under misunderstanding assumed that someone having a weapon like an AR would have to have a class III permit thing...which is wrong. thanks for helping me understand that. :)

Now if he truly plans on doing that I dont know...

thanks...I am thinking of stopping by or calling the local sheriffs office and asking their CCW guy the question.

Joe

nalioth
March 11, 2010, 11:42 PM
No need.

You answered your own question.

He is a student here in Colorado and according to him upon graduation plans on making it his home

That's legal enough for the federales.

lopezni
March 12, 2010, 12:16 AM
has a class III permit

lots of people say stupid things like that.

I also hear alot of " it so easy to convert a semi-auto to full-auto, you just file down the firing pin" derrr

Defense Minister
March 12, 2010, 12:26 AM
Back to the question of state residency, another question came to my mind.

What about people who have residence in two states? Snowbirds, for example.

I know a guy who has a residence in Arizona, and an Arizona DL, but his vehicles are registered in Oregon where he has another residence. He lives in Oregon from late spring to early fall, then "flies" south for the winter. I haven't researched the law, but I would imagine it would be perfectly legal for this individual to participate in private party firearms sales in either state. Anyone else know differently?

I hope this may also help answer the OPs question.

DFW1911
March 12, 2010, 12:57 AM
I lived in Colorado for years (yes, I miss it a great deal!!!). If you have any questions, call the Colorado Bureau of Investigation.

Unlike some agencies, my experience has been that they very much look out for law-abiding citizens of CO. They really went to bat for me - very aggressively - when there was a SNAFU during a firearms purchase I was making. I felt like I had the entire CBI on my side.

Just call and ask. It may take awhile to get transferred to the right person, but put your mind at ease.

Just my $.02: YMMV.

Sam1911
March 12, 2010, 07:20 AM
Ahhhh, a student? That helps, too.

Again, from a post by NavyLT:
27 CFR 178.11: MEANING OF TERMS

An out-of-State college student may establish residence in a State by residing and maintaining a home in a college dormitory or in a location off-campus during the school term.
ATF Rul. 80-21

"State of residence" is defined by regulation in 27 CFR 178.11 as the State in which an individual regularly resides or maintains a home. The regulation also provides an example of an individual who maintains a home in State X and a home in State Y. The individual regularly resides in State X except for the summer months and in State Y for the summer months of the year. The regulation tates that during the time the individual actually resides in State X he is a resident of State X, and during the time he actually resides in State Y he is a resident of State Y.

Applying the above example to outof-State college students it is held, that during the time the students actually reside in a college dormitory or at an off-campus location they are considered residents of the State where the dormitory or off-campus home is located. During the time outof-State college students actually reside in their home State they are considered residents of their home State.

[ATFB 1980-4 25]

Like Nalioth said, you've got your answer.

And, just for future reference, a semi-automatic Ar-15 is just a "Title I" rifle, same as a Remington 700 or Marlin lever-action in the eyes of the ATF.

boostedxt
March 12, 2010, 01:58 PM
Thanks for the info everyone! He said he has been here for over a year. i would think that covers it based off what you stated above.

thanks!
Joe

Keb
March 12, 2010, 02:12 PM
Just ask to see a utility bill.

boostedxt
March 12, 2010, 02:20 PM
cool...I will have him photo copy a utility bill for me and then I staple that to the bill of sale for my records.

joe

thorazine
March 12, 2010, 02:29 PM
I, under misunderstanding assumed that someone having a weapon like an AR would have to have a class III permit thing...which is wrong. thanks for helping me understand that.

lol...

A lot of people think an evil black semi automatic AR15 or AK47 needs some special permit or purchase or possess. :D

(Deleted teasing -- Sam)



I highly doubt a bill of sale is required in the state of CO.

Just check his identification and exchange gun(s) for cash.

http://www.nraila.org/GunLaws/

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