223 55 vs 62 grains


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kestak
March 12, 2010, 10:10 AM
Greetings,

I already had a thread about self defense and I got a bunch of nice answers. However, I have another question:

The army switched from 55 grains 3250 fps to 62 grains 3100 fps because of improved lethality. The military has to use FMJ. With a Hornady SP in 55 grains, could we consider because if the difformation and expansion of the bullet it would be as lethal than the 62 grains (theoritically)

Thank you

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HOWARD J
March 12, 2010, 10:47 AM
I always thought the military switched from 55 to 62 so they could give a military contract to build new rifles ( different twist ) & to supply NATO with free ammo from America ???????????????????

rcmodel
March 12, 2010, 01:24 PM
because of improved lethality.Not hardly.
The 55 grain FMJ in the early 1/12 M-16A1 was a devastating load in Vietnam. At close range it blew up like a soft point, and at long range it tumbled like crazy because it was on the verge of stability.

The 62 grain in 1/7 is the one that is catching all the flack for drilling neat .22 caliber holes through people and not putting their azz in the grass.

As Howard J alluded to, we switched to the 62 grain penetrator bullet because NATO wanted better penetration against Russian body armor it was expected they would employ in WWIII in Europe.

IMO: For current use against unarmored sand pounders we would have better stoppers with the old 55 grain load & 1/12 rifling twist.

rc

kestak
March 12, 2010, 01:29 PM
Greetings,

I am always astonished at RCModel knowledge....

What about a 55 FMJ Hornady with a 1:9 twist under 100 yards?
Would it be as deadly as the one you talk about in nam?

Thank you

rcmodel
March 12, 2010, 01:35 PM
I don't know for sure, but it should be.
The faster twist would promote break-up at closer ranges.
At long range maybe not, because it would certainly be more stable then out of a 1/12.

But at under 100 yards, just about any bullet would get-R-done I betcha.

rc

ants
March 12, 2010, 02:12 PM
Self Defense:

If you're talking miltary & police, it isn't self defense, but law enforcement operations. Military & police operate at close range and at extended ranges, 100 yards and beyond. Their ammo choice is very important, and indeed vitally critical.



If you are considering your own civilian self defense, you aren't talking about 100 yards. Even Zombie attacks are closer. Self defense is very, very close range.

At close civilian self-defense range, it doesn't really matter what rifle bullet you use. It is much more important that you are properly trained, extraordinarily aware of your target and backdrop, and that your equipment is reliable.

At least that's what I think.

Walkalong
March 12, 2010, 02:18 PM
But at under 100 yards, just about any bullet would get-R-done I betcha.
No doubt.
At close civilian self-defense range, it doesn't really matter what rifle bullet you use. It is much more important that you are properly trained, extraordinarily aware of your target and backdrop, and that your equipment is reliable.

Exactly.

BushyGuy
March 12, 2010, 02:23 PM
Soldiers dont need to shoot past 100 yards unless they are snipers, anything beyond 100 yards they call in the gunships and the heavy atrillery to clear it up. I have a 11.5" Hbar with 1:9 RH twist i can still blow up pumpkins and watermelons out to 100 yards past that they just keyhole thru with 55gr fmj. I used 62 gr green tip and shot watermelons with my 11.5" hbar they wont fragment out past 50 yards. so this is from my experience .

I like to see peices of pumpkins and watermelons blow up 20 feet in the air after being hit with the 55 gr fmj better then the 62gr.

Sunray
March 12, 2010, 10:37 PM
"...with my 11.5" hbar they wont fragment..." Barrel's too short to give enough velocity.
NATO went to the SS 109 round to get more range out of 5.56mm rifles. A 55 grain bullet doesn't have the 'legs' for European and, now, Middle Eastern battle fields.
A varmint shot with either bullet won't care.
"...supply NATO with free ammo..." Other NATO countries get nothing for free from the U.S. Their biggest complaint is that the U.S. buys little or nothing, in the way of military kit, from them. Selecting the Beretta pistol was done to alleviate some of this unbalance.

Runningman
March 13, 2010, 06:36 AM
The army switched from 55 grains 3250 fps to 62 grains 3100 fps because of improved lethality. Improved lethality had nothing to do with it.

I recall the idea behind the steel core 62 grain bullet SS109 load AKA M855 was specifically to meet...... ONE requirement. That the bullet be able to penetrate through one side of a steel helmet at 600 meters. Seems a bit silly to me, all things considered. I mean how many of our soldiers are shooting at helmets at 600 yards these days?

Does anyone know of any police departments that actually issue the M855 62 grain load. Around here all the police Departments that use the AR-15 use a 55 grain expanding bullet load. I can't recall any LEO shootings around here involving the AR-15 around here that weren't one shot stops.

243winxb
March 13, 2010, 10:09 AM
I recall the idea behind the steel core 62 grain bullet SS109 load AKA M855 was specifically to meet...... ONE requirement. That the bullet be able to penetrate through one side of a steel helmet at 600 meters. This is how i remember it. Plus the 5.56 does more wounding then killing. Its better to wound the enemy so 2 other military personal have to carry him from the field of battle. Its been called a "mouse gun" from back in the day. Only one worth having is one with a rock and roll switch. (full auto) Close in home protection, short barrel shotgun with #4 buckshot.

HOWARD J
March 13, 2010, 12:17 PM
When you got nothing to read--here is something to read :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5.56x45mm_NATO

@ sunray
Be nice--I still have relatives in Ottawa & Toronto----:D

strambo
March 13, 2010, 02:59 PM
For self defense go the other way...heavier bullets. Hornady 75 grain TAP or a 75-77 grain OTM load. The military (mainly special ops who can get this ammo easier) are using a lot of 77 grain match loads when given the choice. These longer rounds tumble and fragment sooner than the 62 gr ball ammo.

Some uninformed soldier over here had some MK262 ammo (the 77 gr OTM) squirreled away and thought it was "illegal" due to the "hollow point." I took the burden off his conscience...and loaded up 2 mags with it! It is perfectly acceptable for military use. The fact it is in a brown box with a military designation, made in "Lake City" should have been a "clue."

GMFWoodchuck
March 13, 2010, 07:51 PM
Well, the way I see it the military has an explanation for everything. Whether or not it makes sense or whether or not it's expensive. The whole 55 grains versus 62 is just another way for the Army to spend silly ammounts of money. Let's be real here. You take an M16. Shoot a deer. Do you really think a deer is going to know the difference between the two? I seriously doubt it. I also doubt a human will know the difference either. They are both FMJs....

They come with all kinds of ideas to shorten the m16 and call it the m4 and act like it's a whole new thing. And then they go to a war in a desert and pretend the 6 inches and 2 onces is making a difference and on top of all that they decide the m4 needs a bullet that's a whopping 7 grains heavier and tell us how great it is. If the m4 was any good the old bullet would have been just fine. Please. It's the sacking of the American taxpayers' pockets.

It's just furthers my belief that this country has entirely too many people sitting down in an office chair somewhere crunching totally useless numbers wasting our money all the while making absolutely zero difference himself except costing the taxpayer (and corporations) money.

There is zero practical difference between the 55 grain bullet and the 62 grain bullet in the tactical (practical) world.

alsaqr
March 13, 2010, 09:45 PM
When fired from the 20" barrel of my very old Colt AR-15, the 55 grain bullet from the M193 headstamp TW 67 round generates 3,230 fps. From the 16" barrel of my Stag Arms AR-15 it barely breaks 3,050 fps.

The 55 grain bullet from the M193 round is very deadly. I'm a serious hog hunter. Dozens of wild hogs have fallen to my .223 and 5.56mm guns using the M193 round. At ranges to about 150 yards, when fired from a 20-24" barrel, the bullet penetrates 5-6" yaws 90 degrees and fragments. Earlier this week I killed a boar hog that weighed just over 270 pounds field dressed. The hog weighed about 325 pounds on the hoof. The distance was about 45 yards.

The 55 grain bullet hit the hog low behind the shoulder. Bullet fragments shredded the heart, diaphragm and lungs. At the shot the hog keeled over, kicked for about 15 seconds and expired-bang flop.


Dr. Martin Fackler is one of the foremost wound ballistics authorities in the world. He has treated more wounded troops that any other man alive.

Military Bullet Wound Patterns:

http://bajaarizona.org/fklr/fklr.html

GMFWoodchuck
March 14, 2010, 09:47 AM
Interesting article. But like Dr. Martin Fackler, one can make all of this information prove whatever point you're trying to make. Which basically proves my point. It's doesn't matter much one way or another. Sure theres a big difference between the 30-06 and the 5.56. But between the 55 grain and the 62 grain? Like Dr. Martin Fackler said, you can prove anything one way or another. Which basically means the whole debate is a waste of time and taxpayer dollars. The service uses the 62 grain bullet now, stick with it. Stop spending my hard earned money proving silly trival facts that are easily disproven under a set of slightly different circumstances.:banghead:

That's like trying to tell someone that a remington core-lock is better than a winchester silver tip. A deer will never know the difference between one type or weight of bullet from the next. A well placed shot will be lethal.

The whole argument is better left to armchair ballisticians and their own personal budgets. And left out of taxpayer dollars.

ForneyRider
March 14, 2010, 10:43 PM
A buddy and me shot SS109 green tip and AK47 Monarch ammo through a refridgerator and cinder block house this morning. The green tips did not penetrate the cinder block house after exiting the fridge, but the AK rounds blew a 2in hole in the cinder blocks completely.

ants
March 14, 2010, 10:46 PM
Extremely handy information, next time a reefer assaults me with a cinder block wall watching his six. :neener: :p :neener:

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