[twoblink]

<flame suit on as a precaution>

As a libertarian, I could care less what you do, want to shoot from bench?? Fine! Shoot all you want, I will never stop you!!

BUT... I recall one time, this guy had a vice grip, sandbags, etc... the works, and he is shooting from bench, (Browning A-bolt 308 + a 24x scope Leupold I think) and I was shooting next to him, (Iron Sights, M1A National Match).. At linebreak, I walked out, and got my target, and he "laughed" and said that his group was a bit tighter than mine.. I was grouping maybe 2.5" @ 100 yards, his was a little smaller, a little less than 2". I was going to tell him, why don't you PICK UP the rifle and shoulder it standing, and see how well you do then!!

I'm a bit bothered by the fact that people who all this "bench" gear seem to be comparing themselves to standing shots;

I know most who are great bench shooters, when standing, can't hit the side of a barn.. I don't shoot from bench anymore; because I think it's not realistic to keep lying to myself that I'm a great shot when I have a vice grip holding my rifle, when I know if I actually had to shoot on the run or in a standing position, I shoot like Sarah Brady.

It's another reason I only shoot iron sights now...

Ok, I'm done... <rant off>
(gonna keep the flame suit on though!!)

[Jack19]

I was taught that the bench was a good place to zero your rifle, but after that one actually bent at the waist and made contact with the ground....in various positions that were actually to be used in the field. :D :D :D

My bench gear consists of a 50 cal ammo can and an old folded, U.S Navy issue, wool blanket. And no sissy wind and temp meters either. (pulling on Nomex) :neener: ;)

[ojibweindian]

I totally agree!

A bench is used only to dial in my rifles. After that, it's serious practice with "traditional" shooting positions.

[Mike Irwin]

I personally prefer to shoot from a davenport, while a comely, scantily clad lass feeds me peeled grapes between shots, and another holds a screen over me. Of course, there will be other scantily clad lasses to run the targets, reload my rifle, wipe the sweat off my brow, and spot the shots...

Don't sweat the small stuff.

You start doing that while you're at the range, and your groups are going to start going to hell.

[Gewehr98]

Shooting prairie dogs way out there at 400 yards?

A rest of some kind for the day is preferable.

Same for the guys in the benchrest accuracy game.

Battle rifle against a real or imaginary foe?

I sure's hell am not going to just stand up in the open and shoot.

Prone, or barricade behind available cover.

Thumping Bambi or Porky? Sure, standing is just fine. I still like the nearby tree branch rest if available. And if you're sitting in a tree stand...

Dialing in a new scope, or testing out a new handload for accuracy or velocity through the chronograph? Put it on the bags, or put another chronograph on the credit card.

[Meanoldfart]

If you want to find out how good you or your buddys are in practical shooting and have a limited range, this is a good match.
Set up a 6" target at 100yds.,
Start 20 ft. back from the line with your rifle slung.
Walk to the line and load 5 rounds.
You are going to fire a total of 15 rounds, but you must reload between positions. You fire 5 rounds in each position. You can use 3 mags. with 5 rounds each or stripper clips or you may have to load singles. If you have to load singles, you get an extra 30 secs. on the time.
Positions are standing, sitting or kneeling{you choose} and prone. You may shoot the three positions in whatever order you choose.
Any rifle and any sights.
Time limit is 5 minutes.
Just count the hits in the black, 12 or more and you are pretty damn good. If you hit all 15 the first time, draw in a 4in. X ring and count them.
This is fast, easy, fun and gives you a realistic benchmark to work from.

[Soap]

The bench is good for testing a rifle. All other positions are good for testing yourself.

[twoblink]

My instructor had us at 25 yards, and told us to group about 1", then go bug him... It took me two hours before my groups got that good..

I have found, my "Rice Patty Squat" is the most accurate, about as accurate as my prone.. One of the things I found out too, I prefer the 10-round mags on my M1A to the 20 rounds (not that I can own them in the PRK:rolleyes: ) but for prone reasons, I think the 10 rounds are better..

I can't shoot lick with a one-knee position, it's worse then my standing position.

Rice-Patty, Prone, Standing, One knee...

[MJRW]

That was you I saw at the range in the smoking jacket puffing on a pipe, Mike? Next time though, try keeping the target close enough so that we don't lose sight of the running women at any point, k?

Another fine point of bench shooting: when you just feel like it.

[10-Ring]

twoblink - this is a pet peeve of mine as well. :banghead: Bottom line, your guns, your ammo, your false sense of security & efficiency :evil:

[762x51]

I shoot my precision bolt gun from the bench. I shoot my AK and pretty much everything else standing. Have you tried shooting a scoped 12 pound bolt gun for groups while standing?

My pet peeve is more people who shoot fairly accurate high powered rifles at close distances. "Dude....I can get .75 inch 3 shot groups from my AR10T at 25 yards" :rolleyes:

[BHP9]

Two Blink there is a lot of truth in what you say.

I once saw a 6 year old kid who never fired a weapon before in his life after a few minutes of instruction fire 1/4 inch groups out of a heavy barrel rifle off of sand bags.

What is the moral of the story. Well there are many shooters out there and few real riflemen.

I personally became so bored shooting off of sandbags I had to find something else or God forbid become a pistol shooter only.

When I started 3 postion competition in rifle shooting and skeet shooting in shotguns shooting it opened up a whole new interesting world for me and made me a deadly rifle shot when hunting. Even animals like deer on the run were not impossible to take. Most of my fiends who where mostly once a year hunters that sighted in off of sand bags basically had to shoot from a rest and limit their shots to 25 to 75 yards. Most never even attempted to hit a deer on the run.

Even a deer hunt can cost you a lot of money and time and when the moment of truth arrives if you are not a rifleman but only a sand bag shooter you do not stand as good a chance of taking that dream trophy as you are when you are a real rifleman.

Many people of course do not have the time to become rifleman or the money or time to go hunting. Many are very out of shape physically and cannot shoot a weapon unless it is off of sandbags. Few people realize how good a physical shape you must be in for shooting rifles in the various offhand positions. I think this is why many people pressed for time and out of shape can only shoot from sandbags.

Most people think that buying the latest high tech gaget is "the answer" to all their shooting problems and that if you spend more money on better equipment this enables you to become a superior shot.

Truth is the man who shoots often in the offhand positions with the old worn out beat up obsolete rifle will easily outshoot the superior equipment sand bag crowd in many competitions or hunting fields. Not that good equipment is not a plus but the ability to use it must go hand in hand with the equipment.

Sandbag shooting is basically a technology race for shooters. Offhand shooting in the various positions is a game of skilled riflemen requiring all the training and skill of an olympic athlete Something that the anti-gunners will never admit until they actually find out how much skill and physical stamina it actually takes to become a first class High Master Rifleman.

A ground hog on a rifle range in front of a bunch of sand bag shooters could probably survive most of an afternoon without even comming close to being hit even at 100 yards. The same ground hog running at 200 yards flat out for the woods would never make it if he was under the sights of a rifleman. I am not joking because I actually saw this happen.

[Crimper-D]

Other forms of shooting entertainments;)
Ever see a smallbore benchrest target???
The X ring on a USBR target is smaller than this "o"- the whole scoring ring is 2" in diameter there are 25 scoring rings per target
Range is usually 25 or 50yds:what: Try it and report back:neener:
While we are at it, anyone ever hear of Running Deer or Running Boar matches?:uhoh: My club has a Running Deer match following the monthly Centerfire Rifle matches... Ever see a whole line of competition rifle shooters losing $ trying to hit a lifesize Bambi target mounted on a rail and bouncing along a 50yd track with a cam drive? = Offhand at 100yds - no sling.
Moving targets are a Bitch:D
I shoot for fun and occasionally to keep my instincts honed... any form of shooting with any type of firearm helps me accomplish this.

[Edward429451]

I sandbag bench my new loads and new guns to see what they're capable of. After that the bench is just for holding my gear and spot on the range.

It's another reason I only shoot iron sights now...

Me too. No handicap scope for me. (this is what I tell myself cause I cant afford a scope.) My BIL was getting about 1 1/2" groups from the bench with his scoped 700, I was getting 2 3/4" to 3" groups from my irons with field positions and he wouldn't understand that I was doing better. :confused: :D

[M1911]

Mike Irwin: I want to shoot where ever you are shooting. Don't think I'd want to invite the missus, though :fire:

[blades67]

I use the bench and a couple of sandbags sometimes. I don't think it's "cheating" to do so.

[Duke of Lawnchair]

Sights?!

Who needs sights??

That's cheating! :neener:

[Gewehr98]

What is the moral of the story. Well there are many shooters out there and few real riflemen.

As in Fred of the "You gonna be a rifleman or cook when the UN Blue Helmets come marching down the road to your house" Shotgun News persuasion. :rolleyes:

Hey, they don't have a tinfoil helmet smiley yet, do they?

[Smoke]

I kinda have to agree with all the other posts....so far.

I think the issue here is the moron at the range that is comparing his benched shots to those of someone standing. Apples to apples if you please.

[Soap]

One important distinction should be made here: That people who shoot from the bench are not necessarily "benchrest" shooters. The benchrest folks provide an invaluable service to shooters and the industry: they are essentially conducting R&D for new technologies every time they shoot. Good deal.

[jacks308]

for now when I sight in a military type rifle I normally do it prone at 82 feet . If group size is consistant I make the changes and go further back .

Fred MADE me do it !!!!!



Jack

[Skullboy]

I think a lot depends on what type of shooting you are doing.I shoot off the bench with rests when I'm checking my sight in, and when load testing.When I compete in F-Class/Precision Class, we shoot prone off of a bipod.Sure it is nice to be able to shoot offhand and get good groups, But when it comes to precision/sniper competitions and hunting, a good rifleman will always take some sort of a rest(be it kneeling, over a tree branch, etc).In our matches, 1 MOA won't cut it.

That being said,the true riflemen should be able to shoot from ALL positions.

SKBY.

[M67]

Mike Irwin: Do the range provide the wimmin or do you have to bring your own?

In case you're interested in how other people do things:
I don't compete as much as I should, but when I do the full course of fire for a Norwegian rifle shooter is as follows:
5 rounds prone, in 90 seconds.
5 rounds standing in 3 minutes.
5 rounds kneeling in 2 minutes.
10 rounds (three standing, three kneeling, four prone) in 3 minutes including change of position and reloading.
10 rounds prone in 75 seconds.
Bolt action (or G3, but only five rounds per magazine), iron sights, 300 meters, 15 cm 10-ring. (That's ~six inches at ~330 yards :) )
If I want to improve my results, I have to practice my shooting skills, not getting hemorrhoids from a cold bench.:p

[St. Gunner]

Ahhhhm, I feel at home here....

I have a range at the house, 375yds, have a bench set at the 300yd mark and have berms at 100-200-and the big one at 300yds. But I have 75yds behind the bench I shoot from the prone to the big berm. Off of the bipod most of the time, sometimes over some sandbags I made with only a little sand and some of the styrofoam pellets(can carry them to the field real easy). The other day I went to site in a .22/250 for my father-in-law, cleaned it all up and sat down at the bench. Plunked 5 shots into about a quarter size group out of a 1967 Remington rifle with a 6x weaver with the post. Switched to my 300yd berm and some human size silos I have cut from 1" plate. It was spelled B_O_R_I_N_G. Stick the post on the top of the head, a kiss of left windage and whack, right on what would be the bridge of the nose. Went to the prone, no sling to wrap in, landed them in the head, but not exactly on what would be the spinal column.

My standard stess relief is the 8mm Turk mauser at 300yds with open sites on the steels. From offhand I shoot center mass, from sitting the same, from prone the head. I won't tell you I shoot perfect, but I have gotten to where I can tell you where the shot lands from the way I felt when the trigger breaks.

I have a custom mauser with a shilen barrel that is capable of outshooting me. I use it to scramble eggs at various ranges. The close ones get set down end on, the others set with the tall side to me. These get shot from the prone.

I've started doing all of the shooting in the field I can from the prone with a bipod. 6-9" swivel harris. We do some long range shooting at hogs at times and it is the best way to connect. Now the close stuff is the fun stuff, and it is almost always standing and moving. I got a triple last spring as some hogs busted out of some brush when the dogs bayed another hog. all shots at about 120yds all running, one headshot, two shoulder shot on about 100lb pigs. I didn't make those shots because of sitting and practicing on a bench.

Now I do use the bench alot when I want to try some 300yd handgun shots with the 4" barreled taurus .357. I lost a shooting partner that way, connected more than he did with his mini-14.:D

[hksw]

In IR 50/50, the 10 ring is 0.25". The X is a 1/32" dot. 1 shot per target, 25 targets, 30 minutes.

A little difficult to get a good score off hand.

[JohnBT]

And be very careful about betting a benchrest shooter that you can shoot better off your hind legs than he can. That old man might have spent the first 50 years of his life doing it the hard way and doing it very well. They might even beat you using your gun. :D

John

[larryw]

Provided they're safe and responsible, I'm not qualified to criticize anyone's choice in shooting style. I'm just glad they're shooting.

[goon]

It is a different kind of shooting. Shooting single hole groups from the bench with a high power rifle is hard, but hitting a clay pigeon offhand at 100yds is hard too.
The only thing is that it is real hard to drag a bench with you into the woods when you are hunting. I like bi-pods, but they are limited. There is usually a tree or something handy. If not, I will sit down. If the grass is too high, I wrap the sling around my arm and wing it.
Use whatever you got.

[Duke of Lawnchair]

Provided they're safe and responsible, I'm not qualified to criticize anyone's choice in shooting style. I'm just glad they're shooting.

Excellent response.

[labgrade]

No way can you properly evaluate a load without using bags, etc.

I do quite crack up at those "sighting in" for hunting season while standing .....

That said, you're quite correct in that the comparison isn't, & that they're shooting at all is a big plus.

If I can "pop the balloon" while standing, I'm good to go. Hunting, I'll use every field-expedient rest I can, & while playing, I'll do that in a variety of positions.

Serious work, as in working up loads, I do the bags every time.

[pooch]

You know we all have our own challenges, physical or otherwise. It’s easy to feel superior to the next guy and the way he is shooting. I suggest we just let people shoot the way they enjoy shooting. Having been involved in several different types of shooting competitions, my experience is, that each style of shooting brings with it it’s own challenges. Position shooting is tough, no doubt, but those who think shooting well from the bench is easy probably haven’t done enough of it to really know. Sure it’s easier to shoot a smaller group from the bench than off hand, but who cares? It’s apples and oranges. From the bench it’s how small a group can you shoot? And then can you shoot that tiny group in varying wind, mirage, etc. consistently. It’s just a different discipline and a different set of challenges. ....pooch

[twoblink]

My instructor told me, a "Rifleman" can impose his will up to 500 yards from where he is standing..

I have a friend who shoots in the "long range" competition; 500 and 1000 yards. That's IRON SIGHTS folks... it's on a 10 point system, my friend gets 3 points consistantly...:what:

I think bench shooting is great; for sighting in your rifle..

I'm not a big fan of scopes because if my iron sights are off, I at least can see that; if my scope is off, I have no clue what direction it's off, and by how much.

Also, I (use to be able to) group about 3" @200 yards... That seems quite sufficient to me for most applications...

[Art Eatman]

Isn't a good bit of this discussion sorta apples and oranges?

Look: The only Bad Thing about shooting from a benchrest is if a guy is mostly interested in deer hunting, but shoots only from the bench when he's not hunting. That is, he doesn't practice under field conditions.

Ain't this what's important? That you practice under the conditions where you do your "Serious Shooting"? Away from that setup, you're just having fun--and there's nothing wrong with that.

:), Art

[BHP9]

Did you know that sighting a gun in at the bench in no way sights it in for shooting in the field

One unkown fact to the once a year hunter who sights his gun in on sandbags is the fact that when shooting the same weapon in the standing, sitting or prone positions that the point of impact changes and according to how the individual holds his weapon sometimes the point of both elevation and windage can be dramatic even as close as 100 yards.

AS a matter of fact the point of impact will also change as one moves from the standing to the sitting position and it will change slightly when moving from the sitting to the prone position.

It will also change even when the light is faiding because people with iron sights will often tend to shoot high as the light faids.

It will also change with the wind and mirage.

It will change as the terrain changes from flat to hilly country.

It will change as the range increases or decreases.

All this is where the sand bag crowd is really at a big disadvantage because when you never become an accomplished 3 position shooter at various ranges you are not aware of how the weapon in question is going to shoot in field positions. Small wonder why so much game even big game is often missed or worst yet wounded only to get away because of the lack of shooting skill on the part of the once a year hunter.

Fortunately most game is shot below 75 yards, once the range increases the variables become to great for the once a year hunter to cope with. Long range shooting is best left to the pages of the sensational stories found in the gun rags.

Becoming a good offhand shot takes a least minumum of 2,000 rounds a year of practice and once you learn the practice does not end if you want to keep sharp.

[Skullboy]

Art, once again you hit the nail on the head!!!:)

SKBY.

[Gewehr98]

Well-stated. They're out there shooting, regardless of position. Anything more is just gravy.

[bogie]

Well, I _am_ a benchrest shooter/competitor.

Heck - My rear sandbag goes for about $75 new, and is filled with zircon sand... The front sandbag is attached to a rest plate that can be moved around with dials and cams in order to aim - I'm guessing that I've got over $400 in the rest and bags...

The attached pic is me with a "light varmint" rifle - the wide thing is a strip of aluminum to block barrel heat/mirage.

[bogie]

Also, don't clamp your rifle into anything - you'll be lucky to have it group inside a barn that way - stuff bounces around. The rifle should slide straight back.

Another shot of me and the rifle...

[bogie]

Here's a shot of my rifle, the old rear bag, and the back part of my rest...

[bogie]

And here's what happens if you do good... That's Jimmy Kelbly (Kelbly's makes Stolle actions, and some darn fine rifles) with the mike, and Bob White, of Shooter's Corner (a great place to buy a used, but not abused, highly accurate rifle) sitting on the table...

[Art Eatman]

Neat, Bogie! Thanks for showing us.

BHP9, most of your points involve people making some sort of change, not the rifle itself or its sights. The change in impact with different positions is due to different tensions on a sling, or having a different pressure point on the forearm in the field than when it's on the sandbag. The sights haven't moved, which is the only thing that would change the "sight in".

Shooting high with iron sights in poor light is due to people raising the muzzle just a bit in order to have a clearer view of the front sight. (I saw a guy completely miss with a shotgun, at 25-30 yards, one night--shooting at a Chevy Blazer.)

:), Art

[twoblink]

Hmm.. I tend to follow the addage that you should sight the say way you shoot; and so if you don't "shoot from the bench" in the field, then you shouldn't sight that way...

Never thought about it, but now that I do, my point of aim actually is different in a stance then in prone..

Great responses!

[Skunkabilly]

I shoot bench because I don't get enough time on my rifle so I still need to do sight picture and trigger control often.

Not like my pistol where I'm very familiar with it and can 'go tactical' at the range.

I hope I have time on Sun cuz I really wanna shoot Daisy!

[JohnBT]

"Did you know that sighting a gun in at the bench in no way sights it in for shooting in the field"

"All this is where the sand bag crowd is really at a big disadvantage"

Well, to respond to the first statemen, yes I did. Just because I like bench rest shooting doesn't mean I just fell off the cantaloupe truck and found my first rifle. I started shooting and hunting in 1955. Hunting requires many more positions than any old three position game.

And what in the world is your problem with bench rest shooters?

John

[Soap]

Skunk- My solution for that problem was to take an index card and draw a 1 cm circle on it. Hang it up about 5-7 yards away in your apartment. Then dryfire like crazy at it. You can hang it from various heights to do everything from prone to snapshooting. You'll be amazed at how much better you will be the next time you live fire.

[Duke of Lawnchair]

I hope I have time on Sun cuz I really wanna shoot Daisy!

I hope that's the name of one of your guns and not an "ex". :D

[cratz2]

I don't see how it can be 'cheating' as I have never seen a cope of The Official Informal Shooting Handbook but I do think that some people shoot a little too often off bags and rests.

I've rarely had the opportunity to shoot off a dedicated rest with bags and adjustable butt stock support. Plus, I'm probably not good enough of a shooter for that stuff to make a whole lot of a difference. I can do just about as well with my 700 Police off a bipod as I can with my buddies dedicated 16 lb 25-06 benchrest rifle off said dedicated rest. Little under 1" to little over 1" at 100 yards, most of the time.

I guess for most 'practice time', I'm more of a shoot off of an informal rest such as a tree or post kind of guy. Completely unaided, standing, no sling, no rest, I can shoot maybe 3"-5" at 100 yards.

[waynzwld]

I usually shoot off a bench (I built a 200 yd range on my "farm" with a concrete bench) but, I also do a fair amount of varmint shooting also. when I shoot off a bench, I do it to A) see what kind of accuracy the rifle is actually capable of, B) to test loads (the bench is 10 feet from my cabin) and C) to shoot little tiny groups on targets. I do shoot using different field positions, usually odd ones. Because I shoot and test off the bench, I know that when in the field what the true useable range is on that paticular gun for a particular target, and if I miss, I know it is due to me, not the rifle. No alibis if I miss! ;)

[larryw]

Daniel, I did a similar thing: went to the stationery store and bought some round, 1/2" diameter neon red stickers. Stuck them here and there and spend lots of time shooting them (dry firing).

My wife does the :rolleyes: thing whenever a new one appears.

[Soap]

Larry,

My wife just smiles because I'm like a little boy with bigger toys :) One thing that helped me a lot was to practice timed snapshooting and to practice transitioning focus when doing more than one target. With the latter, I set up two dots about 1-2' apart and then snapshoot at one, switch to target focus, move to next target, switch to front sight focus. This helped my target transitioning immensely.

[Jon Coppenbarger]

I really do not care how or why someone shoots either from a bench or standing on their head but the ONLY time I ever use a bench is when I first put a scope on a new rifle and thats only once every couple of years and I suck at shooting off a bench just ask steve smith. now I spend a few minutes every month down at the range and 99% of the folks I see are shooting off a bench with a rifle and I do not care.

LABGRADE: we are both in colorado and you are welcome to come and shoot with us anytime you would like as there are a few highpower matches up in your area of the woods, a nice match every month till nov. in boulder and one in ault also.
ault is a little ways for me to go but I try to make the boulder match every month.
we do not shoot off of benches or bags but laying on a matt or on the ground with just you and a sling for support and we also do it in rapid prone stages and rapid sitting stages and even off hand with out any support or sling.
its fun and when I am working on loads I do it from the positions like prone on the ground as when I pull the trigger I know where it goes.
also we only use open sights and I use a ar15 also. those matches are only 200 yards but when the weather gets a little better its off the bailey or byers for matches out to 600 yards and then we always have camp perry every year also.

now I only shot 198-9x on the slow prone target last week at 200 yards in a match and finished 3rd as the two guys next to me shot a perfect 200 and all three of us were using ar15's with open sights laying on a matt on the ground in the cold and wind.
8 of the 9 x's I shot were with in the size of a quarter with a 20" ar15.
oh and I think I might have a ideal of why I do not use a bench for my loads and practice because it would not of let me win the colorado state prone championship at ault last sept. as I did with the same ar15. I was the first one to win it with a ar15 against all the match rifles that were there. it was 40 rounds of slow prone on the slow prone target and 40 rounds of rapid prone on the rapid prone target. my score and I made a few bad shots but still had a 786-28x for the day out of a possible 800.

I also do not think the two elk I dropped 20 yards apart back in oct. cared if I was shooting from a bench or not.

let folks shoot what they want as it does not matter but please do not tell me that in order to be good I have to check my loads from a bench or practice that way and if you do not believe me come on out and watch and I will even loan you a rifle and the ammo to try it your self at a match.
jon in colorado springs.

[Steve Smith]

Well, Jon, 198-9x is good, but I plan on cleaning it this year, so look out! :D

You guys know I don't use a rest, and honestly, I do find them a bit silly for regular rage visits...but to each his own. BR definitely definitely serves as a good lab for the shooting sports as a whole...those guys have learned a lot about ammo over the years.

[Double Naught Spy]

Okay twoblink, just how the heck is it cheating for someone to use a bench where there is no competition going on with rules that proclaim using the bench is a no-no?

I also don't understand your suggestion that the person was unskilled. So they are unskilled because you don't shoot that way?

Aside from zeroing sights, there are some good reasons to shoot from the bench when you can. Most people who are trying to shoot precisely will use some form of rest/bench if it is available. Snipers commonly used bipods and the the bipod isn't cheating and they sure aren't unskilled. They are simply taking advantage of the capabilities of the equipment.

I think labgrade is correct in that properly sighting/zeroing a gun such as a rifle is going to require benching the gun. That allows the fullest potential of the firearm to be attained under ideal circumstances. If you then shoot without the bench, any problems in accuracy are not going to be because of an improperly sighted gun. For most folks, if they try to get the gun zeroed without the bench, they probably are not going to be able to get the sights as well zeroed than if they had used the bench.

I have seen folks sighting in a gun without benching it and in one case, the guy was zeroing his gun, but he wasnt' actually zeroing his gun as much as zeroing his gun to compensate for a flinch/jerk that I am guessing he did not know he had. He had troubling grouping because his flinch/jerk was not consistently the same amount.

[Jon Coppenbarger]

when folks make statements they should say for the masses but as I pointed out and a few people here know me personally that there are exceptions to the rule.
IF a person knows how to shoot from a position like prone on the ground and only using a support of the sling and your arm and know what they are doing they can do it.
I can and I know alot of others that can adjust point of impact by 1/4" at 100 yards and 1/2" at 200 yards with open sights and not off a bench so you see not everyone needs a bench.

but again I say I do not care if someone likes to shoot off a bench or standing on their head if thats what they like to do.
now another member here helped me put a scope on my 30-06 hunting rifle and sight it in off a bench but now that its set it will never see a bench again so there are exceptions that way to, and to tell the truth I really think the only reason I sighted it in off a bench was because everybody else does it that way.

let me give you a example of proper prone position:
when I hit the ground in rapid , no we will make it just slow prone when I get into position and my rifle is slinged up and I get behind the sights and set my npa and sight picture I do it without ever once touching the hand grip once I put the rifle into my shoulder as it is setting palm flat on the matt and only supported by the sling and bone structure in my left arm and the stock into the shoulder. when my npa and breathing is set I will bring my trigger finger and shooting hand to the grip and trigger without putting any pressure on the rifle or pistol grip to get the perfect straight back trigger pull. ( I just slightly grasp the grip)
then I will start to take the first stage out of the trigger and then close my eyes for about 4 seconds and open them take up any slack thats left concentrait on front sight blade and ever so slowly take the last 1# off the trigger and bang there it goes. no jerk and you can call the shot as you know where it went.
there are a hundred tricks to getting to know whats right and what helps and when something is not right but you do not learn that overnight.

now as far as hunting how many of you set up a target at 200 yards everyday (when its not raining or snowing) when you are out in hunting camp and dryfire off hand and sitting for a hour each day instead of reading or sleeping or drinking.
and guess what when my game comes across my path its automatic as I do not even think about pulling the trigger as I just put the sights or crosshairs where I want and the shot is already off and the follow up is soon ready to go.

but its like any sport if you train like you want to shoot then you need to practice what you will be doing if its on a bench or on the ground.

[kidcoltoutlaw]

if the bench is to easy your not shooting at 800 to a 1000 yards.

[pooch]

I'm thinking of getting a Jewell trigger for my computer.... ;)

[Jon Coppenbarger]

I have shot lots of palma and 1,000 yard matches back in the 1980's and like it but just got back into highpower competition in late 2001 and with my 48 going on 49 year old eyes I thought I would give these new fangled black ar15 things a couple of years of serious devotion and see how far I can go untill I start to back slide on the open post ar15 sights.
hey you hear the funny part I am left eye dominate and use my right eye to shoot the ar 15 right handed.
I am going to give it one more year and switch eyes and even thinking about messing with my friends at matches by shooting half my off hand shots right handed and then the other half left handed. ought to be good for a few laugh's anyway.

believe it or not I was in gunsmithing inc. today looking at don't laugh small bore rifles and was talking about some palma actions.
maybe christmas I will treat myself to a tubb 2000 for long range or a nice palma rifle by stolle- panda or one of the new one's by sinclair.

did you know that palma rifles took the first spot at perry in 2002 and had a great showing overall in the long range.and the winner belongs and shoots at my club. anyway the 2004 united states palma team and coaches has already been selected so if I start next year I will have two years of long range down again before the 2008 tryouts in 2006. should be fun as I will be retired by then and can devote more time to palma and long range. palma rules!!!!

[Art Eatman]

jc 121, sounds great!

But, shooting rules. Any kind, any old how. Worrying about how somebody does what they like is sorta like making a career of picking flyspecks* outta pepper.

:), Art

* Just keeping Grammaw happy.

[Steve Smith]

FWIW, just as Jon, I don't use a bench unless I'm sighting in a scope for the first time. I trust my prone position enough that I can sight in and test ammo better from there than I can from the bench these days. Never could figure out how to shoot from behind a desk anyways.

Jon, go ahead and switch to Palma...one less guy in my way of me going distinguished! :p


You really don't want to hang around that snobby bunch do you?

[Jon Coppenbarger]

art you are right as I say it does not mater and should not mater what way someone shoots as long as they are having fun and being safe.

steve, you guys are stuck with me for this year anyway and I was shooting with 4 guys sat. that have the same thoughts about me, ron p.,mike w., bill d. and john s. so between rose and you and me and them it is going to be crowded up there looking for those leg points.
gotta get some more loading down today and tommorrow to keep you from laughing at me.

oh and dang you art I like pepper and now that thought will be crossing my mind all the time when I shake. can I hand wash pepper corns and then grind them to keep them clean? LOL

[Steve Smith]

Hey Jon, I'll have that Dillon bench together in the next week if you don't mind giving me a hand with it. Then I won't have to laugh at you ever again.


BTW, I'm pretty disappointed that you haven't put that bench together for me while I've been gone. What a room mate you are! :rolleyes: :D

[twoblink]

JohnBT, D.N.S,

Like I stated, I don't have a problem with bench shooting; I have a problem when someone who does 100% bench shooting thinks it's the same as shooting from stance. Part of the difficulty of stance is that you have to hold your rifle steady; not the sandbags holding your rifle steady, YOU. That's what makes it hard. Bench shooting is not a piece of cake, but it's not the same as having to hold up my 12lb M1A in a shouldered position.

Me shooting from stance, iron sights, is drastically different then a Leupold 24x scope, a bench with a vice grip etc.. It just irritates me when I see people comparing groups from bench shooting vs. stance.

[12.7x99mm]

Funny I thought about this the other day. I stopped using a bench awhile back.

I find my self kneeling allot these days with my open sites. And with scoped hunting rifles I shoot standing or kneeling.

I just use the benches for gear and loading these days.

I did use a bench for shooting my 10/22 and range bag for rest. Last week.

Love that rifle!

[Cosmoline]

I'm very much in favor of off hand shooting. If you can master it, the other positions seem easy. I also do a fair amount of shooting from a kneeling position.

That said, you DO NEED a good rest in order to test loads, sight in, and so on. Once that's done, it's time to get up and start shooting for real.

The problem is, many rifle shooters NEVER GET UP! I see so many shooters do ALL their shooting from the bench. It's the same disease that leads us to spend all our time on the sofa and get super-size meals at McD's ;-)

[Bullet]

When I go to the range I go for fun. If you don't like what I'm doing - don't tell me. I don't care what you think. By the way if you don't like my car or my wife I don't want to hear about this either.

[Art Eatman]

Bullet, nobody cares how you have fun; that's strictly up to you. The overall point of all this discussion is that those who think shooting from a benchrest is all that is needed in order to be a successful critter-shooter are fooling themselves.

:), Art

[pooch]

Sorry Art, I sense a little more than that going on in this thread. There’s a whole negative under current of…”my way of shooting is better,…harder, more challenging, …more worthwhile, etc.”…you fill in the blank. And, those shooting from the bench are… “kidding themselves, …engaging in something that is just too easy to be worthwhile, …not a challenge…etc, you fill in the blank. Not to mention the numerous posts telling us how great a shots they are. (of course they would never use a bench, that would be too easy). While I agree with your premise that people should practice the way they are going to hunt, there are many more reasons to shoot from the bench than hunting, none of which involve a lack of skill or challenge. Often people have preconceived ideas about the way things are. It has been my experience that once you get deeply involved in most anything you find out there was a lot more to it than you previously thought. A little more open mindedness to fellow shooters would go a long way, otherwise maybe this should be called the “High Power Board”.

[Duke of Lawnchair]

True riflemen hipfire!!!!!!!

The super-duper-uber masters bump fire.

By the way, I'm only joking.

To each his/her own and I'm with ya pooch.

[Steve Smith]

Pooch and Bullet, its a shame that you feel like you're being picked on here, as its simply not the case at all. The poster Bogie is known to be a real Benchrest enthusiast, and he and I have had some good-natured arguments, but thats it...GOOD NATURED. I don't think any experienced position shooter would argue that his method will get the most from the gun/ammo combo like Benchrest does, but in the same breath, no BR guy worth his salt would tell you that his method tests his practical shooting ability.

FWIW, those of us who shot from position do so so much that whatever bench skills we had have atrophied to some degree. I never could get my bags where I wanted them, and was always fussing with the awkward bench position (awkward to me, anyway). This has nothing to do with it being "too easy" its just unfamiliar. I hope that explains some things.

As far as this being the "High Power Board," that's rediculous. ALL methods of rifle shooting affect the others. We all learn from each other, and we're better for it. As I said before, BR has developed some of the biggest improvements in handloading methods. Their unending search for perfection has given the rest of us ways to make the target bigger for ourselves.

I do think that position shooters have more pride about their method than other shooters, and you'll be hard pressed to get any of us to stop feeling that way. Perhaps you should try it for yourself, or just don't read the threads that you don't like. Frankly, after reading through the thread a few times, the only "feelings" that were hurt were those of the bench shooters that didn't like others comments. Try not to get your emotions involved with he discussion. Just read the points and make an evaluation based on the merit of the argument.

:) Steve

[Art Eatman]

Aw, ya get down to the nitty-gritty, I think the title of this thread coulda been worded differently...

Heck, I'll get on a kick on working up a really tight-shooting package, and tweak around with small variations in powder charge, different brands of bullets and that sort of stuff: Gotta use a bench rest to test them all. I see no other way. I'm luckier than most in that I have a bench rest built onto my front porch.

But I'll shoot at small rocks and tin cans, offhand, just for practice for when I go hunting. When I do get out looking for critters, though, I'll try for some sort of hasty rest in order to raise my odds on a clean hit.

And then there those times when I'll sit at the bench rest and plink for the fun of it. Other times, I do it because my danged back hurts!

So if a guy has a reason for what he's doing and a reason why he's doing it the way he is, seems to me it's his business and not mine.

:D, Art

[Bullet]

The topic of this thread - Shooting from the bench cheating/unskilled??. Bench shooters comparing themselves to standing shooters bothered Twoblink. I was replying to this. Shooting is my hobby. I've been shooting since I was 4. That's been about 45 years ago. I like to shoot a lot of different ways. I don't like for people to believe that if your not doing what they are your no good. Over the years I have heard this from just about every kind of shooter. I have fun with my hobby (shooting & loading). I don't find fault with other shooters - bench or off hand. You can learn different things from both. Both have different values to different people. I just wish shooters sometimes would be more shooter friendly and not so concerned with what they are doing. Having said this I believe most shooters are good people willing to help each other and this is the way it should be. To answer the thread NO shooting from the bench is not cheating/unskilled.

[JohnBT]

Speaking of shooting at rocks and dirt clods, I spent a fair part of the late 1950s and all of the 1960s shooting .22 rifles at stuff thrown up in the air. Now that's hard compared to punching paper. And yes, we had a mountain for a backstop.

We shot at 45 records, dirt clods, rocks and even tin cans launched with firecrackers and cherry bombs. If it would move, we would shoot it. We built those little plastic model boats with the battery powered motors and set them circling in the farm ponds and learned to pick the itty-bitty guns off 'em one at a time before we sank them. We'd shoot standing, sitting, leaning and flat on our bellies. Ever win a bet standing on one leg?

Once we took two old .049 gas airplane engines and built two balsawood swamp boats for targets....whoops....across the pond in the blink of an eye and up the bank into the woods - nothing but splinters. I guess the power to weight ratio was a little off.

Once we were deemed trustworthy we were free to come and go. Those were the days. A couple of 10-year-olds turned loose for long weekend camping trips - with guns and firecrackers. And we never got into trouble either.

Hitting moving squirrels, rabbits and groundhogs seemed tame after some of the targets we came up with.

What's the big deal about shooting off a nice clean mat at a stationary piece of paper? Ooooh, kneeling, prone and standing, too. Okay, that's a little harder to do really well, but it's hardly all-around shooting. Or using a straped down canvas coat and a funny-looking glove for support :)

Somebody needs to lighten up a little. Hmmmmm?

Did I miss anybody?

Trap shooters maybe? :)

John

[pooch]

Steve, I don’t feel picked on, nor did I get my feelings hurt. There are always going to be people posting on these boards who obviously don’t know what they are talking about. That’s just the way it is, and sometimes you feel like you have to point it out. On the other hand there are usually a lot of good people that make worthwhile contributions to the mix, and “good natured” disagreements are welcome. The “Highpower Board” comment was made because it seemed like a lot of highpower guys were taking the opportunity to tell us how much more skill it takes to do what they do. Sorry, I don’t buy it. It’s just a different set of skills developed through a lot of practice. (by the way, I have nothing against highpower, it’s a very enjoyable sport, and 2 of my closest friends are still shootin it.) As far as trying it…. I have spent considerable time position shooting, do have an appreciation for it, and I still try to keep my hand in it. The fact that I now mainly concentrate on benchrest has little to do with the way I see this thread. “Shooting from the bench cheating/ unskilled?” The very premise of the thread is insulting, or at least ignorant, and it pits one type of shooter against another when the enjoyment of shooting (any kind) is what should be uniting us. Just felt like that should be pointed out.