Kimber has a job opening for a gun designer


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hso
March 14, 2010, 12:06 PM
Kimber's hiring.

Gun Designer Join the World leader in 1911’s and showcase your talent! Apply your experience as a seasoned Gun Designer: ? Provide expert consultative support to the functional technical area of all phases of firearms product development. ? Develop solutions to complex problems. ? Provide expert guidance and direction at the highest possible levels for difficult areas requiring innovation, research, and development. ? Work closely with the Product Engineering staff to identify the best strategic solutions to technical/engineering issues. Requires 10 years of specialized technical experience in the functional area of small arms design and development. Master’s degree in Mechanical Engineering or in a related field, or in the functional area of small arms design preferred. Experience may be substituted for education as appropriate. Outstanding career opportunity!Relocation assistance available. Please respond with resume and cover letter detailing your accomplishments to hr@kimberamerica.com E.O.E.

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winknplink
March 14, 2010, 12:21 PM
An ME? For weapon design?

Wow, taking advantage of that slow economy I see. I bet all their draftsmen have BSME's, too, lol.

No wonder they cost so much.

Beelzy
March 14, 2010, 12:29 PM
They should spend the payroll money on better finishes on their pistol barrels if you ask me.

Seems odd that they are seeking a Trouble Shooter.......pardon the pun.

earlthegoat2
March 14, 2010, 12:46 PM
Apparently they are thinking of producing an original design?? ( I know most designs these days arent original, I guess I mean non-1911)

Could be for rifles I suppose.

MetalHead
March 14, 2010, 02:11 PM
How many of the great designers would meet half those criteria?

Full Metal Jacket
March 14, 2010, 02:17 PM
sounds like they lost one of their top guys........maybe the the new guy will bring some quality control with him.

mcdonl
March 14, 2010, 02:34 PM
By the amount of complaints about their guns and quality control it sounds like the need one.

The Lone Haranguer
March 14, 2010, 03:13 PM
It seems odd that they need a new designer when their products were designed over 100 years ago. :p

EddieNFL
March 14, 2010, 04:14 PM
It seems odd that they need a new designer when their products were designed over 100 years ago. :p
Maybe they're gonna take another stab at the external extractor.

conhntr
March 14, 2010, 04:19 PM
they want the new guy to design a way to use even more MIM

Buck Snort
March 14, 2010, 04:47 PM
Hey guys, I've got a Kimber CDP II that's just the cat's meow. They make a LOT of guns and it goes w/out saying that not every one that leaves the factory is going to perform as expected right out of the box. Truth of the matter is even the very BEST manufacturers produce some lemon, no matter what the product.

EddieNFL
March 14, 2010, 05:38 PM
They make a LOT of guns and it goes w/out saying that not every one that leaves the factory is going to perform as expected right out of the box.

Very true. The problem with Kimber is they leave with very simple problems that could be detected and corrected with just a modicum more quality control. Also, CS attitude is "iffy." One day, peaches and cream; next day you're an idiot.

cambeul41
March 14, 2010, 06:01 PM
Sounds like they need a quality control engineer -- which my wife is.

Full Metal Jacket
March 14, 2010, 06:11 PM
Maybe they're gonna take another stab at the external extractor

:eek:

Millwright
March 14, 2010, 07:28 PM
Blame the "New Educational System"......These days a Bachelor's Degree is equivalent to a high school education circa 1960 ! I can see where Kimber would want at least a MSME and some serious industry-related credential. I know I would !!

Remember Kimber is a medium to high level peddler of specialized handguns - particularly those based upon the 1911 platform. Their ad boast is "craftsmanship" and design excellence, ( and they do make, IMO, some very pretty guns). Its a highly competitive market and growing more so almost daily, it seems. Why not 'go for the best available' ? >MW

mcdonl
March 14, 2010, 09:18 PM
I do not own one myself, but it seems as though their rifles do not have any of the QC problems of their pistols. IS that true? Do they only make bolt action rifles? Maybe the simple design keeps them out of trouble.

earlthegoat2
March 14, 2010, 10:19 PM
It seems odd that they need a new designer when their products were designed over 100 years ago.

I was going to post this exact thing until I thought they might try to actually design something themselves but then I though of their rifles which despite being a modified Mauser are at least something not as cliche as the 1911.

There requirements are high. Someone of the type they are looking for is going to have to jump ship from another major manufacturer where they would have a lot of seniority already built up. I would not be surprised if they lured someone away from a smaller manufacturer such as a lower volume custom manufacturer.

Nicodemus38
March 14, 2010, 11:28 PM
the thing is, kimber wanting an employee with those minimum requirements is extremely common these days.

the last time i saw an advertisement for a designer at a west michigan furniture company, they wanted pretty much the same degrees, experience, for a job that paid TEN DOLLARS, yes 10.00 per hour, for a maximum of 20 hours per week.

however, the greatest designers of firearms in history would never have been able to meet the requirements for this job. I merely remember the following gentlemen.
Kalishnakov
Browning
Colt
Mosin and Nagant
Berdan
Hiram Maxim
The Mauser brothers
Luger

Uncle Mike
March 14, 2010, 11:45 PM
That's just like corporate America now....they want everything and do not want to give much of anything for it!

Seriously...a ME plus 10 years in the field! What Kimber wants is a guy who understands how to design something that looks expensive but cost a dollar to build it, so they can continue to charge those astronomical prices they do for rifles that cant keep pace with a $300 Marlin XS7 or Stevens 200!

It might benefit them to hire some old gunsmith that has been tightening up those sloppy Kimbers for years...but then again, all his ideas, while they would produce a fine rifle, would cost money to do.... money that the top level boys are not going to part with.

Well, I wish them the best!

biohazurd
March 15, 2010, 01:41 AM
Ha! Did John Moses Browning have a masters?

Ithaca37
March 15, 2010, 01:02 PM
I can see there aren't many engineers here.

Do you seriously think Kalashnikov and others worked alone? Plenty of non-engineers have had and continue to have brilliant ideas. However, it requires us (engineers) to make those products a reality.

They could hire any one of you to draw pretty pictures for them, but it requires extensive background in materials and design to design a quality product that doesn't cost a fortune.

How many of you have a strong background in dynamics, fatigue, mechanics of materials, and heat transfer? That is what it takes to design a quality firearm.

Also don't forget, Glock and Stoner were both engineers and have designed products that have taken huge market shares.


the last time i saw an advertisement for a designer at a west michigan furniture company, they wanted pretty much the same degrees, experience, for a job that paid TEN DOLLARS, yes 10.00 per hour, for a maximum of 20 hours per week.

There is no such thing as "pretty much the same" when comes engineering discipline and/or degree level. Mechanical is not Civil is not EE and MS is not "pretty much the same" as a BS. I think you are confused. Nobody with a MS in ME is doing work for $10/hr. The market is not that bad.

wlewisiii
March 15, 2010, 01:52 PM
This is an example of an ad for a position where they already have someone they intend to hire for it but for some reason (political, economic, union contract, etc) need to pretend that the opening is competitive. The key weasel words are the ones about "Experience may be substituted" - it tells you that they know no one will come up that actually meets their requirements so they can then go ahead and hire the person they want to hire.

William

EddieNFL
March 15, 2010, 02:05 PM
I think you are confused. Nobody with a MS in ME is doing work for $10/hr. The market is not that bad.

I think it is. A friend owns a gun shop hired an engineer at $12 per hour. An attorney friend hired a paralegal (don't know the wage scale) last year. Guy has a law degree and is a bar member.

An engineer once told told me, "Every project reaches a point when you have to shoot the engineer and build it."

winknplink
March 15, 2010, 02:54 PM
Nobody with a MS in ME is doing work for $10/hr. The market is not that bad.

You would be wrong. Just b/c it's not down for your discipline doesn't mean it's not down for mine or the next guy's.

BSME with emphasis on Automation and Robotics, 1996. 10+ years under Toyota as a project mgr.

I'd jump on $10/hour right now out of mere common sense.

And, this is very common practice for engineering companies to hire all they can for as little as it takes in an employer's market. It's low down, but it's smart. You don't need a Masters for QC, metallurgy, physics, design, stress analysis, et al., they simply WANT one. As an engineer worth his salt, you should know that.

NOLAEMT
March 15, 2010, 03:30 PM
They might want someone with a masters in ME that they can pay 10 dollars an hour, but I doubt they would find many takers.

My soon to be father in law has a masters in ME an works as an independent contractor for a variety of different people and corporations.

He charges $250 an hour for his time. and he has a waiting list for his services

Ithaca37
March 15, 2010, 03:36 PM
You would be wrong. Just b/c it's not down for your discipline doesn't mean it's not down for mine or the next guy's.


Fair enough.


I'd jump on $10/hour right now out of mere common sense.

So you are currently unemployed? $10/hr can only look good if you do not have an engineering job right now. Like I said, there are jobs out there. Maybe not in your area, but the market is a whole is not so bad that I would consider what amounts to a consulting job for $10/hr.


And, this is very common practice for engineering companies to hire all they can for as little as it takes in an employer's market. It's low down, but it's smart. You don't need a Masters for QC, metallurgy, physics, design, stress analysis, et al., they simply WANT one. As an engineer worth his salt, you should know that.

True enough. Experience can easily outweigh education. However, there is a difference in those with a graduate education and those without. Not everyone is capable of graduate level work (granted, some are capable but choose not to and those are the people for whom the MS vs BS doesn't matter because they are damn good engineers regardless). Your typical BSME does not operate at the same level as a MS or PhD. That is why typical salary for an MS is (or was until recently anyways) $15K higher than for those with a BS and advancement is easier for those with the graduate degree.

My point was more directed at the non-engineers who seem to think they could do firearm design as well as an engineer.

mrokern
March 15, 2010, 03:39 PM
Ok, all of you who are whining up above, raise your hand if you actually OWN a Kimber. Chances are, you don't. They sell more 1911s than the other companies, and by sheer logic, there will be more complaints. And let's be honest...how many people post raving reviews? Nah. Most people only post complaints.

I'll put my CDP (the one I happen to have on me this very moment) up against any tupperware you happen to own, or Colt, or anything else for reliability and accuracy right now.

The one time I had to send a Kimber back to them, it was quick, polite, and they even did a few extra nice to haves on the gun before sending it back. All on their dime, both ways.

I own 3. I'd trust any one of them with my life.

-Mark

Owen
March 15, 2010, 03:44 PM
$15k higher for a MSME? where? when I was looking into getting an MSME a few years ago, it was only about a $3k/year difference...IOW, no payoff.

earlthegoat2
March 15, 2010, 03:46 PM
$10.00/hr looks great to me. I have been graduated from college for 4 years now and have yet to attain a position that does not underemploy my education and experience. Granted I dont have a degree in engineering.

Maximum wage- 9.15/hr. That was 3 years ago. I have since accepted less money for less stressful work. I am in a unique position to able to make choices like this because I have all my insurance from the military and I have no kids.

Chief Engineer
March 15, 2010, 03:58 PM
How much should I request of them to re-invent the wheel?

19-3Ben
March 15, 2010, 04:09 PM
How much should I request of them to re-invent the wheel?

How round do you plan to make it?;)

earlthegoat2
March 15, 2010, 04:18 PM
How much should I request of them to re-invent the wheel?

Sounds like your overqualified.

They will just hire one of the accountant's kids or something anyway who is barely qualified to work anywhere. Old boys system rules.

EddieNFL
March 15, 2010, 05:11 PM
Ok, all of you who are whining up above, raise your hand if you actually OWN a Kimber. Chances are, you don't.

Bought three, still have two.

They sell more 1911s than the other companies, and by sheer logic, there will be more complaints.

Using that logic, we should all be driving Toyotas.

Ithaca37
March 15, 2010, 06:01 PM
$15k higher for a MSME? where? when I was looking into getting an MSME a few years ago, it was only about a $3k/year difference...IOW, no payoff.

I can't find the ME specific numbers right now, but you can see here that for engineering as a whole the $15K holds. That is probably where i got that number from. It has been a couple years since i saw it, so I don't remember what the ME specific numbers are. However, I see no reason to suspect ME would as low as you have quoted.

linky (http://www.careerbuilder.com/Article/CB-1152-Getting-Ahead-Bachelors-vs-Masters-How-Does-Your-Salary-Stack-Up/?ArticleID=1152&cbRecursionCnt=1&cbsid=7d7c72d4810b45aba52e8ce22ce8e12b-321990885-RO-4&ns_siteid=ns_us_g_masters_degree_engine_)

The Wiki says:
The total number of mechanical engineering jobs in 2004 was projected to grow 9% to 17%, with average starting salaries being $50,256 with a bachelor's degree, $59,880 with a master's degree, and $68,299 with a doctorate degree.

This would indicate a $10K differential at the star. Well worth the two year investment, especially when you consider the extra upward mobility (and salary increase that goes along with higher positions) granted by the advanced degree. Assuming you performed well in undergrad and score well on the GRE, grad school should not cost you a dime and you will make a small salary to support yourself while you are there. Based on the numbers from the wiki, I am looking at an 8-9 year pay back when I finish in a little over a year, assuming a constant $59,880 salary over that time span which obviously is worse than reality. That is a good return on investment considering the several additional decades of earning that will occur at a pay grade greater than possible with a BS.

$10.00/hr looks great to me. I have been graduated from college for 4 years now and have yet to attain a position that does not underemploy my education and experience. Granted I dont have a degree in engineering.

Maximum wage- 9.15/hr. That was 3 years ago. I have since accepted less money for less stressful work. I am in a unique position to able to make choices like this because I have all my insurance from the military and I have no kids.

This is not meant to be disrespectful or demeaning, but not all degrees are equal. I have no idea what you majored in, but a 4 year engineering degree pretty much guarantees $50K to start. There are many degrees that will barely allow their holders to obtain that salary level by the time they retire. When I said that nobody with an MSME was going to work for $10/hr, I was not saying $10/hr was bad money in general, it just simply is not enough to obtain that kind of expertise. It is like a law firm saying they want an experience attorney to work for $10/hr. It just isn't going to happen.

jcs271
March 15, 2010, 06:05 PM
Let it be known that I also would be interested in hiring a qualified firearms designer to rework my Kimber Pro CDP into a reliable firearm.

Currently it goes bang 30-40 times then a failure to feed with HARDBALL!

$1,000 down the drain. So much for finest, most reliable or whatever that crap is that they say in their ad.

Beelzy
March 15, 2010, 06:39 PM
Holy Low Pay Batman!

I think if I squeeze really hard, I can fart $10.00 an hour!

Jim K
March 15, 2010, 08:16 PM
There are some folks who would say it is about time they hired someone who knows something about guns.

Jim

Kernel
March 15, 2010, 08:37 PM
At my former employer, a Fortune 100 manufacturing company based in a Midwestern city with reasonable cost of living, a MSME with that skill set would pull down at least $100k a year with bonuses, expense account, fringe, and other benefits, plus or minus $20k. A fresh out of school, wet behind the ears MSME could get $50k easy. Add $5-10k and go to the front of the line if you're a diversity candidate. HR continually benchmarked salaries across many related industries, so I would say those numbers are pretty typical, and neither high or low. Still, less than what a city bus driver makes.

SlamFire1
March 15, 2010, 09:21 PM
Maybe they will get someone from Eastern Europe.

Nicodemus38
March 15, 2010, 09:26 PM
To clarify the job was for a furniture company that wanted to get into medical furniture, think electric operated hospital bed. the degree requirements were in fact Mechanical Engineering. for 10 bucks an hour, for 20 hours a week. In the end I think an engineer from india took it. Going by the name, i believe the person teaches at a local community college as well.

with all the complaints on quality, and metal from Jimenez arms, and jennings and bryco, please dont say you need a phd in engineering and a BS in materials to design a gun. if someone with those degrees and experience and participated in Brycos products, i wouldnt read gun reviews in which pocket knives have been more then enough tooling to change the ramp angle on them.

Ithaca37
March 15, 2010, 09:59 PM
with all the complaints on quality, and metal from Jimenez arms, and jennings and bryco, please dont say you need a phd in engineering and a BS in materials to design a gun. if someone with those degrees and experience and participated in Brycos products, i wouldnt read gun reviews in which pocket knives have been more then enough tooling to change the ramp angle on them.

Poor products reflect bad engineering, bad QC, and bad company policy. That does not change the fact that quality designs come from good engineers.

rattletrap1970
March 15, 2010, 10:05 PM
Like most places I look for jobs at, they are all hung up on the BSME instead of caring what someone can do. 18 Years of mechanical design in varying fields somehow doesn't equal some wingnut out of school who doesn't know one end of a machine from another. "F'ing pathetic."

Ithaca37
March 15, 2010, 10:33 PM
Like most places I look for jobs at, they are all hung up on the BSME instead of caring what someone can do. 18 Years of mechanical design in varying fields somehow doesn't equal some wingnut out of school who doesn't know one end of a machine from another. "F'ing pathetic."

If you feel you can do the job and they won't hire you because you lack the credentials, get the degree. Maybe it is not fair, but it is how the world works. If hiring people such as yourself proved as good as hiring "wingnuts" they would have noticed and would take people such as yourself. Believe it or not, that engineering education is worth something. It also serves to weed out people who can not perform at that level.

Your typical BSME graduate has a background in mechanics of materials, thermodynamics, heat transfer, machine design, dynamics, fluid mechanics, fatigue and fracture. They will also have experience with finite element analysis and other design tools. Can you offer knowledge and understanding in all of these areas to a potential employer?

I know some people who spent years working as a machinist or other related occupations and then went got an engineering degree. Did they know more about design and manufacturing than your typical BSME going into their studies? You bet. Could they offer the same skill set as a BSME? Nope. That is why they were studying to get the degree.

rattletrap1970
March 16, 2010, 06:30 AM
Umm. No. How about that? In 18 years you pick a lot of that up just out of necessity. Can I do all of it, no, can I do more than most out of college, yes. The problem is, you don't even get a chance. I'm a single guy, no second income, I own a home, I've got bills. Can I afford the ridiculous fees to go back to college? Can I do that while maintaining a household and working full time, no. There are a lot of jobs where the company insists on the BSME when I know that the job performed is something I've done admirably at other places.

The paramount issue is, can you get the job done. It shouldn't be some kind of elitist club, unfortunately many times this IS exactly what I see. Then again, with so many people out of work and the perception that someone with a 4 year degree (instead of two 2 year degrees) is BETTER, the companies perceive these people as a bargain. They can pay them less and get the guy with the 4 year for the same price or less that the other guy with more experience.

Country_boy_88
March 16, 2010, 08:29 AM
Earlthegoat what kind of degree do you have???:confused:

Im not even finished with my ME degree and I make $15.50 an hour working for a large gun munfacturing just drawing small fixtures and doing work instructions.

The Manufacturing engineers make atleast 30k and design atleast 50k easily as my guess.

I turned down drafting jobs unemployed cause i was making more unemployed then they some places wanted to pay:cuss:

winknplink
March 16, 2010, 10:13 AM
Umm. No. How about that? In 18 years you pick a lot of that up just out of necessity. Can I do all of it, no, can I do more than most out of college, yes. The problem is, you don't even get a chance. I'm a single guy, no second income, I own a home, I've got bills. Can I afford the ridiculous fees to go back to college? Can I do that while maintaining a household and working full time, no. There are a lot of jobs where the company insists on the BSME when I know that the job performed is something I've done admirably at other places.

The paramount issue is, can you get the job done. It shouldn't be some kind of elitist club, unfortunately many times this IS exactly what I see. Then again, with so many people out of work and the perception that someone with a 4 year degree (instead of two 2 year degrees) is BETTER, the companies perceive these people as a bargain. They can pay them less and get the guy with the 4 year for the same price or less that the other guy with more experience.

Welcome to the world of the over-qualified.

Your reasoning has merit. No other field of interest will kick you to the curb faster than engineering. As soon as you become "expensive", you will be the first to be asked to leave, and they will hire a monkey fresh out of school and train him at half your wage. This is what is wrong with "American" products. Capitalism has killed senior leadership in the name of cutting costs.

Good post.

earlthegoat2
March 16, 2010, 10:15 AM
Capitalism has killed senior leadership in the name of cutting costs.

Those "senior" leaders are always some knucklehead with a Business degree too and no idea what engineering is.

But I see this thread has gone a little off topic...

Hiring and firing in the US has gotten out of control and most if it has been brought about by the hard times. Unfortunately companies are not intrested too much in who is going to be the best person for the job. (as in the highest amount of output per dollar spent) but rather who is going to "fit in" the best. Managers do not want someone who does too good of a job because it will disrupt the balance of the outfit and start making other people look bad. They want someone who will cut corners here and there so the manager can discipline them for it and make it look like they are doing their job. If nothing ever goes wrong then who needs a manager right. They dont want to hire a poster boy for efficiency and production because that rocks the boat too much. In short they want someone who is easy to manage not someone who knows the job and has good experience. Next important point is they want someone who will work cheap or is not qualified enough for a high salary. Moral of the story is that if you have a resume and references full of praise for how productive you are and how hard of a worker you are and how you are the best at everything then you are half sunk already. Everything is done and the choices are made to further individuals agendas and not that of the company. Everyone likes to feel special and think they are more important than they actually are and since they are the manager they like to put themselves on a throne and build up a monarchy with their serfs.

Maybe I have an authority problem or maybe I have been underemployed for too long either way if I was a manager I would not want to hire me either but it is too late to change all that now.

winknplink
March 16, 2010, 10:18 AM
I turned down drafting jobs unemployed cause i was making more unemployed then they some places wanted to pay

Yup. I have been working as an adjunct instructor for a for-profit post-secondary educator for about 2 years now. I teach Acad and Inventor software. This particular job is about to go away b/c the school I work for feels their education is worth more than a "draftsman" can pay back in 10 years time.

$50k education for a $10/hour job = no work for me b/c people aren't that stupid.

Money money.

winknplink
March 16, 2010, 10:24 AM
I will say this, had I to do it over again, I'd avoid the engineering field altogether and kick the guidance counselor who suggested as much square in the berries.

Sure the money is good, but this is the 3rd recession since I have graduated, and 2 of them resulted in me not having a job while I watch my other buddies in other fields prosper.

vtbluegrass
March 16, 2010, 10:42 AM
Hey engineering no matter how you look at it is a better choice than natural resources management. That's one I should go back in time and kick my own rear for.

hmphargh
March 16, 2010, 10:55 AM
There requirements are high. Someone of the type they are looking for is going to have to jump ship from another major manufacturer where they would have a lot of seniority already built up. I would not be surprised if they lured someone away from a smaller manufacturer such as a lower volume custom manufacturer.
I've discussed job application requirements before with a recruiter at a large government contracting research firm he told me that there is also a legal reason that they list those requirements.

Basically, any company that sells their products to the government has to maintain certain records about their applicants and people that they "consider" for the position. The set of someone who is "considered" for a position is a subset of those who are applicants. If you don't meet the requirements; they don't have to "consider" you. This means you don't get added to more detailed records regarding race, veteran status, and the rest of the application which keeps companies off the hook for applicable EOE laws if someone who is not qualified for the position decides to sue for discrimination.

This is not meant to be disrespectful or demeaning, but not all degrees are equal. I have no idea what you majored in, but a 4 year engineering degree pretty much guarantees $50K to start. There are many degrees that will barely allow their holders to obtain that salary level by the time they retire. When I said that nobody with an MSME was going to work for $10/hr, I was not saying $10/hr was bad money in general, it just simply is not enough to obtain that kind of expertise. It is like a law firm saying they want an experience attorney to work for $10/hr. It just isn't going to happen.

I agree with you generally, but I know several people who are law school graduates, some with only internship experience, some with a couple years of experience. None of the people who are recent graduates with only internship experience can get jobs at law firms right now, and only about half of those with work experience still have their jobs. $10/hr does seem a bit low, and I think that most if not all companies who need an engineer on contract would start at about $25/hr (or not hire someone at all). That said, those of us who are engineers and are out of work (myself included) would and should jump at an offer for $10/hr to pay the bills in the mean time.

bababooey32
March 16, 2010, 11:15 AM
And, this is very common practice for engineering companies to hire all they can for as little as it takes in an employer's market.

I'm pretty sure every employer on earth is looking to hire as much as they can for as little as possible. That's pretty much the definition of running a business.

It's low down, but it's smart.

It's not low down, but it is smart. You'd be a fool to run a business by paying extra "just to be nice"...

winknplink
March 16, 2010, 11:42 AM
I'm pretty sure every employer on earth is looking to hire as much as they can for as little as possible. That's pretty much the definition of running a business.

Well, of course they do. But, most employers lack the leeway in salary to pull off the highway robbery of salaries that the eng. field presents. I don't see McDonalds hiring for lower than minimum wage, and for good reason...it's illegal. No such law exists for salaries.

So, if you get hired during a recession at x amount and then a lesser qualified guy gets hired 2 years later during a boom and starts out above your money, you'd be cool with that and not see it as "low down"?

I disagree. And this kind of thing runs rampant in the field. Again, with so many engineers to pick from, they don't care if you get mad and leave, they'll simply hire a new guy for less money. Sound financial practice, yes. Low down ethics? I guarantee it.

Nicodemus38
March 16, 2010, 09:36 PM
the job qualifications is a joke for almost everything when you get down to it.

when i was in the army, any medically impaired high school student doing basic during junior year summer was able to work the company phone system.
to do that same job in michigan, i need to get a BA or MBA in business management
and thats to get the state minimum wage.

Engineering degrees in any capicity is simply a game of being rich.

to become an engineer civil, mechanical, structural, you need to be able to get certified. that means at least 4-5 eyars of college in a college program that typically costs 30-45,000 a year. multiply that by 4 years and your talking at least 120000 for a quality education.
then you have to find a liscenced engineer or architect to give you 3 years of internship. then when thats over you have to have multiple liscenced people in your field to give recomendation letters so you can apply for the liscening test.
if you pass that, you get liscence and rubber stamp.

for a nursing degree right now, your looking at about 80,000 in education cost. the typical RN can earn about 50,000 a year in the right regional job markets. after taxes and cost of living, etc, the nurse i know with that debt expects to be able to pay that 80,000 dollars off in about 6 years.

Owen
March 16, 2010, 09:50 PM
you don't need to be a PE to work as an engineer. As an ME, I really think the PE thing is a sucker's game. Without a PE if I sign a drawing, the company is liable. If I have PE license and sign a drawing, I am liable.

I know its required in architecture and civil engineering, but outside of that, I don't think its really necessary.

hmphargh
March 17, 2010, 12:57 PM
Engineering degrees in any capicity is simply a game of being rich.

to become an engineer civil, mechanical, structural, you need to be able to get certified. that means at least 4-5 eyars of college in a college program that typically costs 30-45,000 a year. multiply that by 4 years and your talking at least 120000 for a quality education.
then you have to find a liscenced engineer or architect to give you 3 years of internship. then when thats over you have to have multiple liscenced people in your field to give recomendation letters so you can apply for the liscening test.
if you pass that, you get liscence and rubber stamp.

for a nursing degree right now, your looking at about 80,000 in education cost. the typical RN can earn about 50,000 a year in the right regional job markets. after taxes and cost of living, etc, the nurse i know with that debt expects to be able to pay that 80,000 dollars off in about 6 years.
Not true. I recently graduated from an ABET accredited university with an electrical engineering degree, the cost was just over $35,000 for tuition and books.

The FE exam costs $120 (in my state), which is usually covered by your employer in addition to preparation materials/courses which vary.

After that you must work for about 4 years to gain general acceptance as a professional engineer at which time you must apply which costs $250 in my state, and if you are accepted take another test costing $265, again, covered by your employer usually.

Most employers will pay 5-10% more for someone who has passed the FE or has a PE license, I've heard the average is about 8%.

That said, if you are actually stamping and signing documents, make sure your employer is paying your PE insurance because if something you sign off on fails and has consequences that affect the public, they will go after you as the PE who signed off on the design, not the company. PEs are not looked at the same in the eyes of the law when it comes to liability for the designs. Most people working at a company are covered by the company if anything is to go bad, but if you, as a PE sign off on something, you are accepting the liability for that design as a professional.

jkingrph
March 17, 2010, 09:12 PM
can see there aren't many engineers here.

Do you seriously think Kalashnikov and others worked alone? Plenty of non-engineers have had and continue to have brilliant ideas. However, it requires us (engineers) to make those products a reality.

They could hire any one of you to draw pretty pictures for them, but it requires extensive background in materials and design to design a quality product that doesn't cost a fortune.

How many of you have a strong background in dynamics, fatigue, mechanics of materials, and heat transfer? That is what it takes to design a quality firearm.

Also don't forget, Glock and Stoner were both engineers and have designed products that have taken huge market shares.


Quote:
the last time i saw an advertisement for a designer at a west michigan furniture company, they wanted pretty much the same degrees, experience, for a job that paid TEN DOLLARS, yes 10.00 per hour, for a maximum of 20 hours per week.

There is no such thing as "pretty much the same" when comes engineering discipline and/or degree level. Mechanical is not Civil is not EE and MS is not "pretty much the same" as a BS. I think you are confused. Nobody with a MS in ME is doing work for $10/hr. The market is not that bad.

Browning certainly did not have and engineering degree, or I do not think any other and managed to design and build a lot of quality arms. He even did some small scale manufacturing of his early 1885 single shot before being discovered by Winchester. Even after that, I think many of his designs were unchanged for manufacturing.

I'm not knocking engineers, the formal education will definetly help in designing any mechanism,( also some bad products, ex Toyota brakes) but please do not forget that many things we use today were designed by very smart individuals who were self taught and never saw the halls of higher education!

Geno
March 17, 2010, 10:29 PM
jkingrph observed:

can see there aren't many engineers here.

Based on how my last 5, "Custom Shop" Kimber 1911A1s failed to function, I'd venture to observe that Kimber doesn't have many engineers either. Hades-on-high! I got me a Dremmel, and a drill. Give me a block o' steel, a tube and a spring. Oh yeah, and a polishing rag. I can make as-good-a paper weight as I paid $2,000.00 for that last Kimber. What am I complaining for?! I could always throw it at the bad guy. Seems they got an engineer or two makin' their rifles. Maybe this time they'll get lucky, and the new engineer will present with a resume not printed in crayon on the back of a middle school IEP. :neener:

Geno

grizz13
March 18, 2010, 12:55 PM
Ok, first off this is my first post on any forum although i have been lurking for a while.
That being said, there seem to be a lot of misconceptions about Mechanical Engineering.
First: The education is not nearly that expensive. I am going to one of the top 5 schools in the nation for Engineering for about $15,000 a year.

Second: Engineers are not always involved in the glamorous side of design. A designer may say i want the gun to operate like this and we get to decide how thick the chamber must be to withstand the cyclic loading of repeated firing or how rigid the spring on the slide of your 1911 must be to properly handle the recoil of the round being fired.

As an aside: The basic concept of the 1911 was designed almost 100 years ago but the small changes in caliber, slide and pretty much anything else requires a re-engineering of most of the key internal components.

So the big idea here is that the engineers don't necessarily design an entirely new gun but instead find what is required to adapt an older design to a newer caliber or to simply improve upon an older design.

Another way to look at it is car companies don't throw away their designs from previous years, they improve upon them and come out with entirely new models very rarely.
Sorry about the rant but i felt obligated to try and explain it the way i see it as an engineer.

LoneCoon
March 18, 2010, 01:42 PM
Ok, first off this is my first post on any forum although i have been lurking for a while.
That being said, there seem to be a lot of misconceptions about Mechanical Engineering.
First: The education is not nearly that expensive. I am going to one of the top 5 schools in the nation for Engineering for about $15,000 a year.

Second: Engineers are not always involved in the glamorous side of design. A designer may say i want the gun to operate like this and we get to decide how thick the chamber must be to withstand the cyclic loading of repeated firing or how rigid the spring on the slide of your 1911 must be to properly handle the recoil of the round being fired.

As an aside: The basic concept of the 1911 was designed almost 100 years ago but the small changes in caliber, slide and pretty much anything else requires a re-engineering of most of the key internal components.

So the big idea here is that the engineers don't necessarily design an entirely new gun but instead find what is required to adapt an older design to a newer caliber or to simply improve upon an older design.

Another way to look at it is car companies don't throw away their designs from previous years, they improve upon them and come out with entirely new models very rarely.
Sorry about the rant but i felt obligated to try and explain it the way i see it as an engineer.
Lemme guess: Wright State or Ohio State?

And you're right, I failed enough engineering classes to know that it's not cheap, but it's not THAT expensive.

Mike OTDP
March 18, 2010, 01:51 PM
Everybody seems to have forgotten that phrase in the ad, "Experience may be substituted for education as appropriate."

Kimber isn't looking for a mechanical engineer, they are looking for either a firearm designer or a specialist in firearm production - probably the latter. If you had nothing but a high-school diploma but had twenty years work experience in small arms design and manufacturing, they would likely hire you.

As for the difference between a BSME and a MSME, I can't speak directly. My BS is in Aerospace and Ocean Engineering. And in that field, work experience frequently counts more...especially in my subspecialty, flight test. For that, there is work experience and the Test Pilot Schools (I have both, if you were wondering).

Buck Snort
March 19, 2010, 01:17 AM
Ha! Did John Moses Browning have a masters?
He didn't need no stink'n "masters". The guy was a frigg'n genius!

grizz13
March 19, 2010, 08:58 AM
LoneCoon

Actually it's University of Toledo. Something about our Masters program and mandatory co-op experience.

winknplink
March 19, 2010, 10:20 AM
That said, if you are actually stamping and signing documents, make sure your employer is paying your PE insurance because if something you sign off on fails and has consequences that affect the public, they will go after you as the PE who signed off on the design, not the company. PEs are not looked at the same in the eyes of the law when it comes to liability for the designs. Most people working at a company are covered by the company if anything is to go bad, but if you, as a PE sign off on something, you are accepting the liability for that design as a professional.

Excellent point.

The way you do it is get an eng degree then work for an LLC company as a non-PE. Most money for the least amount of liability.:)

Work that system!

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