[w4rma]

By MEG LAUGHLIN
mlaughlin@herald.com

Thursday at dusk, John DeLeon was driving on North Miami Avenue near 19th Street when he saw something that made him stop:

Cars were running over clothes, book bags, glasses and other items in the street. On the side of the road, DeLeon, an attorney working with the American Civil Liberties Union in Miami, saw a cellphone, a camera, more clothes, an African drum and other personal items.

He then joined a small group of students from a nearby adult vocational school in watching Miami-Dade police load 10 to 12 people -- mostly anti-FTAA protesters -- into a prisoner transport van. Police then drove away, and, according to DeLeon and the students, left the protesters' belongings behind.

''This is a clear violation of the law,'' DeLeon said.

Student Laura Rose, 27, said she saw police throw one protester's glasses in the street as they arrested him. ''He was begging them to give him his glasses,'' she said.

Another student, Cleion Ramsey, 39, said he saw a policeman empty a book bag in the street. ''A camera and some eyeglasses fell out and the police left them there,'' Ramsey said.

DeLeon picked up most of the belongings that were not destroyed and took them, in two large garbage bags, to The Herald on Friday. Among them were the purse and press credentials of Miami New Times staff writer Celeste Fraser Delgado, 36. She was arrested on charges of failing to obey a lawful command and resisting an officer without violence. She said she was trying to interview protesters.

On Thursday, as DeLeon was putting the belongings of Delgado and other protesters in his car, a young man walked up and said he had video footage, taken earlier in the day, of police arresting people at a spot nearby and also putting their belongings in the street.

In the video, which the ACLU gave to The Herald, Miami police officers chase and arrest about a dozen protesters and pile some of their belongings in the street. The police are seen leaving, with the items still in the street.

Miami police spokesman Delrish Moss said: ``We don't tend to believe these stories about police dumping property unless there is solid evidence. We need to see the evidence.''

Friday, protesters just out of jail trickled into Miami police headquarters asking about their belongings. When Elizabeth Ferguson, 17, of East Lansing, Mich., asked police Friday about her ID, credit cards and money, a sergeant said the city was in ''a state of high alert'' and told her to contact internal affairs. Another officer told her to come back Monday. ''Now, without money, credit cards or IDs, I can get arrested for loitering over the weekend,'' she said.
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/local/7325063.htm
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=234842

Miami trade summit security both hailed and reviled
…
The American Civil Liberties Union said it had received 100 complaints from protesters -- who ranged from anarchists and college students to union steelworkers and retired senior citizens -- claiming their civil rights were breached by the massive use of force.

Medea Benjamin, co-founder of the San Francisco-based Global Exchange, said the mayor's comment that Miami should be a model for homeland security is particularly ominous.

"When you convince people that a militarized society is in their best interest, then we are going down a slippery slope toward a police state," she said.
…
The ACLU was investigating whether police officers violated Fourth Amendment rights against illegal searches by stopping people at random, frisking them and dumping the contents of their backpacks into gutters, said Lida Rodriguez-Taseff, president of the ACLU's South Florida chapter.

"We have many, many reports of people whose property was destroyed by police," Rodriguez-Taseff said. "It was a wholesale suspension of the Fourth Amendment."
http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/content/auto/epaper/editions/saturday/news_f3eb5e5e76fe12bf00a2.html

[goalie]

Too bad the ACLU is so picky about which Amendment rights it fights for.

[w4rma]

The NRA (http://www.nra.org/) and GOA (http://www.gunowners.org/) fight for that Amendment right.

ACLU explanation (http://www.aclu.org/PolicePractices/PolicePractices.cfm?ID=9621&c=25)

[MicroBalrog]

The NRA and GOA fight for that Amendment right.

The NRA doesn't, and if the GOA does, doesn't mean there's nothing left for the ACLU to do.

[w4rma]

The way I look at it is that the ACLU (http://www.aclu.org/) has their hands full with fighting to protect the other Amendments (http://www.archives.gov/national_archives_experience/bill_of_rights_transcript.html).

[MicroBalrog]

Couldn't they at least state on theit site they believe it's an individual right?

[Mark Tyson]

I think the ACLU is a good organization. I think they've decided to stay neutral on the gun issue because many of their members are very anti and would leave in droves if they started pushing the gun issue. The 2nd amendment is the "elephant in the living room" of the ACLU. They do a good job of standing up for the 1st, 4th and other constitutional rights though.

The charges of police stealing or destroying property are serious and should be investigated.

[w4rma]

…
IN BRIEF
The national ACLU is neutral on the issue of gun control.
…
http://www.aclu.org/PolicePractices/PolicePractices.cfm?ID=9621&c=25

[MicroBalrog]

We believe that the constitutional right to bear arms is primarily a collective one, intended mainly to protect the right of the states to maintain militias to assure their own freedom and security against the central government

We believe that the Constitution contains no barriers to reasonable regulations of gun ownership. If we can license and register cars, we can license and register guns

That is NEUTRAL?:fire:

Looks, they're a good group. But they're anti.

[Ian]

Someone has to stand up for rights other than the 2nd Amendment - so long as the ACLU doesn't start actively campaigning for gun control, they are our friends.

[w4rma]

They're neutral because they won't fight for the anti-POV in court nor do they campaign for gun control.

[TheeBadOne]

Ian - Someone has to stand up for rights other than the 2nd Amendment - so long as the ACLU doesn't start actively campaigning for gun control, they are our friends.
I guess that's a pretty reasonable way to look at it, even if they really piss me off at times. :scrutiny:

[rayra]

ACLU in catering to their Anti membership [b]is[b] Anti. By not standing up FOR gun owners, and allowing their membership to rail against us, they are contributing to the Anti problem.
The American Civil Liberties Union can either fight for ALL our Rights, or none of them.

And considering which side of the issues they've been on in cases against the Boy Scouts of America, and regarding several Religious issues, they are NOT a friend of mine. Just look into their anti-religion activities, and their nonsense meddling in gender matters that pushes 'gender equality' to ridiculous extremes.

[Sergeant Bob]

I'm not real fond of the ACLU, but that's not the point here.
The point is whether these peoples rights were violated here, and whether the people responsible should be held accountable. If the cops did this, as reported, they should be held accountable.
If you think the ACLU has to stand up for all of our rights, or none of them, then pro 2A supporters need to stand up for all of our rights, or none of them.
To do otherwise, would make you a hypocritical, Cafeteria Constitutionalist.

[Mark Tyson]

If you think the ACLU has to stand up for all of our rights, or none of them, then pro 2A supporters need to stand up for all of our rights, or none of them.

I can't see how anyone can argue with that statement.

[Ian]

Does it bother you that the GOA doesn't stand up for your 5th amendment rights?

[jimpeel]

Basically, the Anarchists just learned the meaning of a new word for their lexicon -- ANARCHY.

Watch what you wish for -- you just might get it; and they did. Now they complain that the laws they abhor were broken and the ACLU will make a big settlement profit to go after the next guys. Kinda interesting that an ACLU lawyer just "happened" to drive by just then. I think he was trolling. "I just happened to be in the neighborhood and ... "

[jimpeel]

Does it bother you that the GOA doesn't stand up for your 5th amendment rights?GOA doesn't bill itself as a Bill of Rights or Civil Rights institution. They bill themselves as a Second Amendment institution.

Know the difference.

So, in answer to your question, "No".

[Ian]

I guess I just don't see neglect as a capital offense for an organization like the ACLU...especially considering the good they've done in fighting the Patriot Act (among other things).

[JohnBT]

Never take valuables to a protest march. Duh. Don't these folks know anything? They should have prepared by talking to folks who crossed paths with Mayor Daley's cops in Chicago 35 years ago.

Chicago, 1968: one night during the Dem convention resulted in more than 700 injuries reported and more than 100 people hospitalized.

Be prepared.

Not debating right and wrong here, just chuckling at those who ignore the past...etc.

John

[tyme]

How fortuitous.
http://www.thehighroad.org/library/images/

[TarpleyG]

Another student, Cleion Ramsey, 39...
Okay, the wrongness of all this aside, *** is a 39 YO "student" doing there? Shouldn't this guy have a job? Why is he still officially a "student?" Bet he still lives at home too (or a commune).

GT

[hammer4nc]

tyme: why is stuff attached to your image file that asks us to "agree" to some kind of contract before downloading?

Re: The news story contains one revealing quote that succinctly sums up prevailing LE attitude, when confronted with possible officer misconduct (its not complementary, IMO):

Miami police spokesman Delrish Moss said: ``We don't tend to believe these stories about police dumping property unless there is solid evidence. We need to see the evidence.''

Now that's a responsive PD! Would it be unreasonable to expect something a little more open, in light of the recent police corruption scandal in the Miami PD? Link: http://www.centredaily.com/mld/centredaily/news/7145369.htm

[WonderNine]

We believe that the Constitution contains no barriers to reasonable regulations of gun ownership.

Other than the fact that the 2nd Amendment is worded in the exact same way as all the other Amendments which everyone KNOWS are individual rights. :cuss:



Notice how the arguement has changed in our day and age from "The Constitution gives us no power to do this" to: "Their is nothing in the Constitution that says we can't do it." :cuss: :fire:

As far as I know the Constitution tells the government what it CAN do, not what it CAN'T.

Imagine a Constitution only telling a government what it can't do?

[Mark Tyson]

You know it's interesting: anarchists say that all property is based on violence and theft and want to do away with property rights . . .

[Betty]

What is police policy for property belonging to persons they arrest?

We believe that the Constitution contains no barriers to reasonable regulations of gun ownership.

What part of "shall not be infringed" is so hard to understand? :rolleyes:

[mountainclmbr]

The anarchists only got 10 percent of what they wish for. The ACLU has sided with the communists for a long time. They only stand up for tearing down value systems so that they can establish their own dream of a utopia. They are what Stalin called USEFUL IDIOTS. They were quickly rounded up and killed in Russia when they were no longer useful. People should be very, very careful about what they wish for. Intelligent people should loudly object to having idiots determine their future!

[tyme]

hammer4nc, no such thing is attached to that file, which is a compressed archive, not an image. If some license nonsense pops up, it's because of something on your computer. I think most major decompression utilities will decompress that file just fine.

Not only does the ACLU bill itself as a civil rights protection organization while failing to protect a civil right, but its position is that the 2nd amendment doesn't clearly confer a civil right. I don't think you'll find the GOA arguing that people have no right against self incrimination or that people have no right to fair compensation for government takings.

[Bill Hook]

Why are all these commie-types worried about (GASP!) their property? They can just share things collectively. And what are they doing with money and credit cards? It sure takes a lot of money to be a proletarian, with designer Che Guevarra T-shirts and all. :rolleyes:

Seriously, this sucks and the police sound like boorish thugs. I can't stand these people, but it isn't cops' job to make value decisions and retaliate against them for their idiotic political and economic beliefs (hypocritical as they are).

[w4rma]

A couple of things:
First: Many, probably most, of the folks at this protest were **NOT** comunists or anarchists. They were protesting the Free Trade Area of the Americas (http://www.stopftaa.org/article.php?list=type&type=3). They were protesting this neo-liberal/neo-conservative policy which is my understanding that many folks here on TheHighRoad disagree with. They were standing up for a good number of us and they were being shot with rubber bullets and had their belongings trashed by the miami police for it.

Secondly: The GOA (http://www.gunowners.org/) will not spend resources on a lawyer to protect our right against self incrimination or our right to fair compensation for government takings. The ACLU (http://www.aclu.org/) will and does. IMHO, folks should support the ACLU (http://www.aclu.org/) because they are the only organization I know of that will spend resources to protect these rights that our Constitution gives us.

[Bill Hook]

Many, probably most, of the folks at this protest were **NOT** comunists or anarchists.

I'll wait until Neal Boortz digs up the dirt on these, before rendering final judgement. IMO, it doesn't matter if most of these people weren't, as (like the anti-war rallies earlier this year) those who sponsor these protests often ARE. That they can recruit ignorant sheeple to provide warm bodies for media photo-ops is no surprise.


The ACLU will and does. IMHO, folks should support the ACLU because they are the only organization I know of that will spend resources to protect these rights that our Constitution gives us.

That often depend on whether or not they agree with you and your cause.

[greyhound]

who ranged from anarchists and college students to union steelworkers and retired senior citizens

is anyone besides me getting sick of how the press has to always fall all over themselves to paint protesters as a "slice of American society"?

Sure, there are a few dupes who love America but disagree with the "stated" cause of the protest, but the majority are hard core leftists who believe that even ex-President Clinton was a right winger and the only "cure" for our "evil" is a semi-socialist state a la Europe.

At least this account admitted that there were "anarchists" as opposed to the usual trick of playing up the "housewives and grandparents" angle.

Folks, anyone going around throwing bricks through McDonald's and Starbuck's windows is not protesting because they "love America".

[c_yeager]

While i think a large number of these protesters probably ARE anarchists or communists, i do NOT believe that opposition to NAFTA makes one such. Personally i think that "free trade" has taken enough american jobs and is looking to take more if we let it.

[w4rma]

FTAA: Bad for North American Jobs, Bad for Latin American Growth

In 1994, Ross Perot said the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) would be "a giant sucking sound" of jobs leaving the United States. But the governments of the United States, Canada and Mexico pressed ahead, claiming that NAFTA would "fuel economic growth, promote environmental protection, and provide greater job opportunities in North America."

Today, advocates of the Free Trade Area of the Americas (FTAA) – which would expand NAFTA to Central and South America – are making the same promises: millions of new, really good jobs in the industrialized North; unprecedented growth and prosperity in the developing South.

As trade ministers from the 34 nations of the Americas meet in Miami during the week of November 16, however, three new studies reveal that NAFTA’s results after nearly 10 years are much closer to Ross Perot’s "giant sucking sound" than the rosy promises of NAFTA’s cheerleaders:
…
http://www.uswa.org/uswa/program/content/714.php

USWA, AFL-CIO Rally and March to Protest FTAA Amidst Storm-trooper Atmosphere

Miami — Nearly 2,000 Steelworkers, joined by several thousand trade unionists from Southern Florida, rallied here at the Bayside Park Amphitheater to protest the ministerial meetings of the Free Trade Area of the Americas (FTAA) taking place at the nearby Intercontinental Hotel.
…
http://www.uswa.org/uswa/program/content/732.php

Steel March in Miami

"En route to the Workers' Forum, sponsored in Miami by the AFL-CIO, Steelworkers, led by President Leo Gerard, spontaneously joined members of the United Students Against Sweatshops, who were protesting the FTAA outside a Burdine's department store."
http://www.uswa.org/uswa/program/image/Leo_marching.jpg
http://www.uswa.org/uswa/program/content/711.php

FTAA's Threat to the American Steel Industry

"At the AFL-CIO's Worker Forum in Miami, Nov. 19, USWA Local 6787 member Allen Long testified on FTAA's threat to the American steel industry . Long called for solidarity among all workers of the Americas in opposing FTAA, and expresed outrage at the oppressive presence of armed military and police throughout the city."
http://www.uswa.org/uswa/program/image/Allen_Long.jpg
http://www.uswa.org/uswa/program/content/712.php

Stop FTAA

If you thought that NAFTA was a disaster, wait ‘til you see what the Free Trade Area of the Americas (FTAA) agreement does to us.

More than 765,000 jobs have disappeared as a result of the NAFTA trade agreement. Now global corporate interests are working to expand NAFTA to 34 countries in North, Central, South America and the Caribbean.
…
View the map (http://www.uswa.org/uswa/program/adminlinks/docs//marchtoMiami.pdf) and join the march when it comes to your part of the country.

Learn more about the March to Miami (http://www.marchtomiami.org/index.html).

Sign up for the FTAA Mobilization Conference (http://www.uswa.org/uswa/program/rapid/556.php)

http://www.uswa.org/uswa/program/image/homeftaa.jpg (http://www.uswa.org/uswa/program/rapid/556.php)

View March to Miami Events (http://www.uswa.org/uswa/program/content/548.php).

http://www.uswa.org/uswa/program/content/329.php

Stop FTAA Photo Highlights

Tens of thousands of workers and their allies traveled to Miami for four days of events in November to protest the Free Trade Area of the Americas (FTAA), a bad trade deal that will accelerate U.S. job loss and environmental degredation.
…
http://www.aflcio.org/issuespolitics/globaleconomy/ftaa_miami.cfm

Like I said, Many, probably most, of the folks at this protest were **NOT** comunists or anarchists. But, don't wait for a right-wing corporate propagandist to tell you that. They are paid the big bucks to lie to you.

[jimpeel]

Free trade is not the problem. Fair trade is the problem. We stress the free part but ignore the fair part; and fair trade is what we need if we are to have free trade.

[Coronach]

Lets put it this way- when you arrest someone, you're responsible for them and whatever property they have on them. So if the cops are stripping off property and discarding it, thats not right. However, in most mass-arrest situations there is a substantial amount of property that gets jetisoned by the arrestee as he attempts to elude capture, resist arrest, or get clear of the crowd and/or crowd control munitions. The police are under no obligation to go pick that up and attempt to reunite it with its owner.

Its clear that some of the statements are alleging that the former occurred. However, I'm curious as to how much was the former and how much was the latter. Also, as this event was filmed extensively, one would think that this (if it happened as reported) would be captured on film...such should make an allegation of misconduct credible.

Also, if you end up with some sort of exigent circumstance, concerns for property go right out the window. The cops are not going to sit and sort property items while bottles are lobbed at them and their prisoners.

Mike

[Calmwater]

Anti-capitalists complaining about losing their consumer goods is kind of funny.

You would think that "anarchists" would want absolutely no government intervention in the market. Both they and their Big Labor cohorts are complaining about a show of force. Ironically, that force is exactly what they want to be used upon consenting individual adults who conduct capitalist acts.

"Fair trade" sounds like another euphamism for protectionism.
http://www.freetrade.org/pubs/pas/pa-164es.html

[another okie]

Who's protecting my Third Amendment rights? I didn't say that Marine could drink my beer!

[TheeBadOne]

Also, if you end up with some sort of exigent circumstance, concerns for property go right out the window.
Like, say for example, a riot? ;)

[Brett Bellmore]

Personally, as someone who was an anarchist for a while, and still has some respect for the position, I'm sick of the press letting those socialists get away with calling themselves "anarchists" at the same time as they're demanding trade laws. Like heck they're "anarchists'! Except maybe in the old nasty stereotype of bomb throwers.

The GOA might not spend much money defending my 5th amendment rights, but they don't officially claim that I don't HAVE any 5th amemdment rights. If the ACLU similarly admitted that I had a constitutional right to be armed, but simply said that defending it wasn't their gig, I'd probably join. But, no, in order to perpetuate the lie that they defend all our rights, they pretend that the rights they chose not to defend are non-existant. That's not neutrality, it's an attack.

[Coronach]

Also, if you end up with some sort of exigent circumstance, concerns for property go right out the window.Like, say for example, a riot? ;)Exactly, TBO, exactly. If its a peaceful demonstration and the arrestees are being stripped of property and carted off, thats one thing. If its a bottle-throwing brawl and the cops are trying to clear the area with an eye to their safety and, not incidentally, the safety of the person they just snatched up, thats another.

As is so often the case, it kinda depends on what exactly was going on.

Mike

[fallingblock]

"in order to perpetuate the lie that they defend all our rights, they pretend that the rights they chose not to defend are non-existant. That's not neutrality, it's an attack."
************************************************************

I was preparing to say much the same myself.:)

There can be no doubt whatsoever.

The ACLU is anti-gun and anti-Second Amendment, and therefore hypocritical in its position of claiming to be concerned about the rights of Americans.

I have little respect for the organization, and would certainly not support it.

[BryanP]

*sigh*

Okay, most of us agree we don't like the ACLU's position on RKBA. Further, we can say that many of us disagree with the positions of the students who were arrested. Stipulated. Done. Out of the way. That has nothing to do with the main thrust here - the actions of the Miami PD when arresting people who were peacefully protesting.

Before you start making jokes about how funny it is to abuse the leftists, try mentally recasting the scene. What if it was a bunch of people protesting a proposed gun ban and and they were treated the same way? Something tells me you wouldn't be making jokes and smirking. If this behavior on the behalf of the Miami PD can be proven those guys need to be fired. There's no excuse.

[Teufelhunden]

Someone has to stand up for rights other than the 2nd Amendment - so long as the ACLU doesn't start actively campaigning for gun control, they are our friends.

We've weakly settled if we now consider anyone who isn't obviously and clearly our enemy to be our friends. Absence of one status does not grant the other in my mind; my friends are my friends, not just people who haven't gone out of their way to harm me yet.

They do some good work, but I think it's politically expedient and cowardly to take a neutral stance on an Amendment that is written as clearly as any of the others in the Bill of Rights. If they're concerned at all about catering to their left-wing constituancy, they've lost sight of the fact that our civil rights are non-partisan and have corrupted their own institution.

-Teuf

[FPrice]

posted by w4rmw,
"IN BRIEF
The national ACLU is neutral on the issue of gun control."

Posted on the ACLU website:

"We believe that the constitutional right to bear arms is primarily a collective one, intended mainly to protect the right of the states to maintain militias to assure their own freedom and security against the central government. In today's world, that idea is somewhat anachronistic and in any case would require weapons much more powerful than handguns or hunting rifles. The ACLU therefore believes that the Second Amendment does not confer an unlimited right upon individuals to own guns or other weapons nor does it prohibit reasonable regulation of gun ownership, such as licensing and registration."

w4rma - IN BRIEF you are incorrect. the ACLU is NOT neutral on the Second. They are anti and their own website proves it.

[Master Blaster]

When I worked in Philadelphia, I witnessed the republican convention and the "anarchist protestors" and the police actions under Herr Loitman
Timoney, who was chief of police in Philadelphia and now chief of police of Miami Fla. He believes in heavy handed military tactics. He probably precipitated some of the violence which was minimal in Philadelphia.

The anarchists were not really anarchists, and were very well organized, folks with radios on roller skates were directing them. Mostly passive resistance, some street shows with puppets.

The folks with gear and backpacks were bystanders caught in the confusion.

All of the anarchists I saw were light and fast and dressed for arrest, they did not have any backpacks or belongings.

Since when is peacful protest which includes yelling insults but not attacking (like I saw in Philadelphia) cause for police to use violence to precipitate a riot.????

[Master Blaster]

How to cause a riot in a peacefull but noisy crowd 101

By John Timoney:

1. Find an area closed in on two sides by large buildings and filled with protestors.

2. surrond the protestors with police in riot gear with tear gas and clubs.

3. erect barriers at either end of the street ensuring no escape.

4. have a large contingent of riot clad police on either end of the street.

5. have the police press the crowd from both ends forcing the folks closer and closer together.

6. introduce tear gas, and start hitting the nearest protesters with clubs while confining the crowd to a smaller ands smaller space with no way to escape.

7. Bring in the paddy wagon and start arresting anyone nearby.

8. You now have a riot, panic grips the crowd, people start breaking windows and trashing cars, more police, more teargas, rubber bullets.

9. start arresting folks who were watching and are now not smart enough to escape (hint not the anarchists who recognized the situation and escaped)

10. Dump their belongings on the street.

Congratulations you have now started a riot amoung peaceful protesters.

Note this also works really well on a mardi gras crowd that has been drinking all day on south street.

:barf:

[Master Blaster]

Starting a riot 102 an Anarchists notebook:

Yoou need 4 strong anarchists and a pack of matches.

1. Pick a busy street at rush hour filled with commuters leaving work.

2. find a dumpster with some paper in it.

3. push the dumpster into the middle of 16th and chestnut, and set the paper on fire.

4. Roller skate away as police are arriving in force.

5. Police arrive to the crowd of onlookers.

6. Police follow directions in 101 rather than putting out the fire and moving the dumpster.

7. You now have commuters and onlookers trapped in a pitched conflict with police.

[TallPine]

Since when is peacful protest which includes yelling insults but not attacking (like I saw in Philadelphia) cause for police to use violence to precipitate a riot.????
Apparently since the First Amendment has been repealed ...

[Coronach]

The folks with gear and backpacks were bystanders caught in the confusion.If they are in the area after the lawful order to disperse is given, they are subject to arrest.Since when is peacful protest which includes yelling insults but not attacking (like I saw in Philadelphia) cause for police to use violence to precipitate a riot.????Theres an assumption there... ;)

Mike

[Master Blaster]

.If they are in the area after the lawful order to disperse is given, they are subject to arrest.

thats great Coronach.

Innocent Bystanders comming out of work, or people watching on their lunch break deserve whatever they get, as long as our overlords the police issued an order.

Riot 102 my example above, I was comming out of Two Liberty place wearing a suit and tie when it happened. There is no assumption, I saw the whole thing the dumpster wheel out to the intersection of 16th and Chestnut, the fire started, the anarchists leaving on roller skates, and the police arrival and reaction.

I was able to duck back into work and avoid the pepper spray, and the JBT squad.

Did you play the robbot in Robo cop 1???

quote:

"You are Illegally parked (trap door on robot opens twin 50 cal mini guns appear) you have 15 seconds to move your vehicle" Twin 50s turn car into burning rubble.
Thank you citizen for your cooperation, NOW MOVE ALONG.

[Calmwater]

BryanP -

Before you start making jokes about how funny it is to abuse the leftists, try mentally recasting the scene. What if it was a bunch of people protesting a proposed gun ban and and they were treated the same way?

I don't look lightly upon anybody getting genuinely mistreated by heavy handed authorities. Don't know what really happened in this case.

These kids were there and had this to report: http://bureaucrash.com/crash.shtml

However, a more accurate mental recasting of the scene would be a few of the million mommies getting mugged on the way home from clamoring to take away my right to defend myself.

The Miami protesters have no qualms at all if the authorities use any amount of force to deprive me of economic freedom. They,in fact, demand it.

So, I'll afford myself the occasional chuckle when a group of statists get hit by the Karma Cab they are hailing.

[alan]

Re the ACLU being "neutral" on gun rights, The Second Amendment or whatever one might choose to call it, the following comes to mind.

Given that the BOR involves the most basic of considerations, specific admonitions directed at the Federal Government at least, telling them in effect WHERE THEY SHALL NOT GO, I fail to see how any organization claiming to be a suppoorter of peoples rights can be "neutral" on a matter so basic.

Of course, it might well be that the ACLU is more "flexible" than I am.

[Coronach]

If they are in the area after the lawful order to disperse is given, they are subject to arrest.thats great Coronach.

Innocent Bystanders comming out of work, or people watching on their lunch break deserve whatever they get, as long as our overlords the police issued an order.The police are charged with restoring order in a given area. They arrive in the area, issue a clear and loud order that people in the area need to disperse, usually due to the assembly not being peaceful. The point of issuing a loud and clear (and lawful) order is so that innocent people are not caught in the resultant police response. Side note: if you are 'just watching' and 'just watching' entails being in the area and not leaving when ordered, you are not an 'innocent bystander.'

Yes, this is one of those few instances in which the police have the power to order people to vacate an area.

Riot 102 my example above, I was comming out of Two Liberty place wearing a suit and tie when it happened. There is no assumption, I saw the whole thing the dumpster wheel out to the intersection of 16th and Chestnut, the fire started, the anarchists leaving on roller skates, and the police arrival and reaction.Then you /should/ have heard the commanding officer "read the riot act". If that didn't happen, it certainly should have. When I've seen it happen it was done several times, with a bullhorn, vehicle PA system, or from an overhead helicopter. There is utterly no question that the people at the scene are informed.

That said, I don't work for Philly PD, but I cannot imagine them doing it much differently. Also, possible for someone to just wander into this between the warnings and the reaction? Always possible, unfortunately. But this does not relieve the police of the duty to maintain order in the area.

I was able to duck back into work and avoid the pepper spray, and the JBT squad.In other words you did what you were required to do by law. Good on you.

Did you play the robbot in Robo cop 1???

quote:

"You are Illegally parked (trap door on robot opens twin 50 cal mini guns appear) you have 15 seconds to move your vehicle" Twin 50s turn car into burning rubble.
Thank you citizen for your cooperation, NOW MOVE ALONG.Please reread the Rules of Conduct to which you agreed to comply when you created your account. Spamming, trolling and personal attacks are prohibited.

Mike

[Solinvictus70]

The police caused the escalation of that protest. There are many indy media pictures of Miami cops roughing up citizens who were either just passing through or were simply exercising a ligitimate 1st Amendment right. The mainstream media gave this event zero coverage, but I suppose in the face of unchecked corporate power, it's quite acceptable to slander a group collectively, ridicule their intentions, and then attempt to actively deprive them of Constitutional rights. The hypocrisy in this is that many gun owners complain about the SAME THING when it is their particular ox being gored. :rolleyes: Hang together or we will all surely hang separately.

[Coronach]

The police caused the escalation of that protest.The same thing is said after every civil disturbance everywhere. While it may not always be wrong, I can think of relatively few modern times when it has been right.The mainstream media gave this event zero coverage...I dunno. I watched quite a bit of coverage and discussion of it on CNN, FNC, and broadcast media. While it might not have garnered the full coverage and 'correct' spin to please you, your assertion is demonstrably false.

Mike

[Solinvictus70]

The media are going to spin the story in accordance with their paymasters. There is no interest in reporting news or issues, only an MTV-timed snippet of a story that is nothing more than a quick opinion of events rather than any relevant coverage. It is absurd to me that protestors can be physically corralled, shot with rubber bullets, beaten, and gassed while simply exercising their 1st Amendment rights. This is similar to Dubya's Orwellian "Free Speech Zones" in which protestors are isolated from any event he happens to attend. Luckily, he won't see protestors at any servicemens' funerals since he's too busy to show up for any of them. El Presidente has set the tone for this country and simply put, if something does not check the advance of a militarized police, all of our rights are in the toilet.

[Orthonym]

Maybe moderators who are also policemen should recuse themselves in this kind of discussion.

Edit: Or maybe I should have said, "refrain from taking a partisan part in this kind of discussion."

[marvl]

If accurately reported, this is indeed shocking and unexcusable police behavior. This has nothing to do with the 2nd Amendment, or Communists, or a student's age (who cares?). I can't believe some of the comments in this thread. Sounds to me like some people exercising Constitutionally protected rights got their nuts kicked.

And if they were protesting an extension of NAFTA, more power to them. That POS Clinton agreement has done nothing but harm to the American middle class.

[Coronach]

Maybe moderators who are also policemen should recuse themselves in this kind of discussion.

Edit: Or maybe I should have said, "refrain from taking a partisan part in this kind of discussion."Why is that?

Solinvictus70-

While the event did not garner intense media coverage, the coverage I did witness was substantially better than "mtv snippets" (a failing of modern media as a whole). As to your assertions that protestors are gassed/beaten/shot for 'exercising 1st amendment rights', in each demonstration that I saw where the police had such a response, the crowd in question had engaged in acts of violence and/or property destruction. The BoR assures the right to peaceably assemble.

Mike

[alan]

Re the quality or lack thereof, of the media/press coverage of the events discussed in the foregoing, interested parties might consider reading the following:

Arrogance by Bernard Goldberg. Mr. Goldberg's previous work is entitled Bias.

Goldberg spent 28 years with CBS News. Readers might draw their own conclusions from that, however the book is interesting in general, and for gun owners, the section starting at page 185 might prove particularly intertresting. It is headed, And Now, the Rest of the Story...

[Malone LaVeigh]

If this behavior on the behalf of the Miami PD can be proven those guys need to be fired. There's no excuse.More likely the city will be sued and end up paying a hefty out of court settlement. Any JBTs that actually did the deed will be unscathed, and the taxpayers will foot the bill.

Sounds to me like Miami is trying to set the new standard in alienating civil rights.

[Betty]

This is going to remain a civil discussion, or this thread doesn't have to continue.

In order to learn, we've got to hear both sides of the story, from people with different viewpoints on the subject.

It's easy to dogpile on a person who has the unpopular opinion and then tell him he doesn't belong in the discussion because that person conveniently happens to be a moderator and a police officer. Not only are there multiple moderators for all forums, moderators are also members and are allowed to share their opinions like everyone else. If someone has a problem with that, or thinks that a thread is somehow being moderated in a biased manner, than drop another moderator a PM. Otherwise, can the personal attacks and debate the topic in a reasonable manner.

[Coronach]

Sounds to me like Miami is trying to set the new standard in alienating civil rights.Thats an pretty bold statement, considering that all we have are allegations of misconduct. Could there be misconduct? Absolutely. But there are also perfectly plausible reasons on how a person could be arrested in a riot and his stuff gets left behind. I've already named a few.

Mike

[Orthonym]

didn't mean to be rude, just trying to point at possible personal preferences maybe influencing thoughts.


Edit: Excuse, please; new South Park episode coming on right now, must watch. Back in 1/2 hr.

[Solinvictus70]

I've really been pondering the events in Miami and the reaction of the public to the police actions. It seems that in El Presidente's America, authorities and the media are attempting to establish a conceptual link between ligitimate political protest and terrorism. If you consider the heavy handed pre-emptive actions of the police; corralling protesters with a shield wall into a fence and attacking them with gas, batons, and rubber projectiles, it appears that we Americans are in for it if we have an issue with the government. El Presidente has, through the Secret Service, squelched all dissent by insuring that protest if physically removed from his presence. If the entire notion of "Free Speech Zones" does not infuriate your sensibilities, then I don't know what will. Even if there were troublemakers in Miami, which it's doubtless that there were, the police overreacted with a calculated use of physical force against unarmed protestors who were exercising their 1st Amendment rights.

In America, the dominant perspective has become the drive for corporate profit. The belief is one of an almost religious fervor as any who dare state that worker's rights, the environment, or a modicum of job protection be considered are labeled as heretics with an immediate zeal unheard of since the Inquisition. Without exception, media outlets portray anti-globalization protestors in the most negative way possible and throughout the print media, the mention of activists evokes an immediate invective against the individuals and their views. Regardless of political beliefs, many Americans are sick and tired of the downward spiral of employment; meaning the quest by corporations for the lowest wages possible anywhere in the world. I find it ironic that in the initial debates on NAFTA a decade ago, pundits were touting the growth of an emerging technology sector that would solve the woes of vanishing manufacturing jobs. Now, the tech jobs are moving to India as corporations have an ideal condition with well educated Third World workers. The entire notion of "free trade" as endorsed by our oligarchs in tantamount to economic treason. It creates a job loss within our borders and it erodes our national sovereignty. Wall Steet loves it, though, because layoffs of many mean profits for the few. I've never understood the way America has swallowed the Wall Street/Federal Reserve scheme of maintaining an agreed upon level of unemployment for the benefit of a select few shareholders.

We've allowed ourselves to become far too divided as citizens. The media keeps hammering away at stereotypes to divide and conquer us for their corporate paymasters. The fact is, the media fosters this division for its own advantage. Do you sincerely believe that, at the core, there is a bit of difference between ABC, NBC, CBS, FOX, and CNN? No, not at all, they're ultimately promoting the same agenda, which is the erosion and eradication of individual civil liberties. The media does not exist to report the news, it is there to encourage a sense of consensus that supports the ultimate agenda of corporate/state control above individual rights. Face the facts, in America, you can have as much justice, legislative representation, and even public consent as you can afford to buy. Corporations, not individual voters, drive our political machine through contributions. Why else would someone raise $200 million to get a job that pays $500,000? Do you sincerely believe that all that money is not given on a quid pro quo basis? Perhaps the greatest judicial mistake in history was Santa Clara County vs. Southern Pacific Railroad in the 1880's. The US Supreme Court held that a corporation; an entity that exists solely on paper, has rights equivalent to a free human being. The Founders knew of the danger of corporate power and in the early days of our Republic, limited the charter of companies to insure that they did not create an immortal being. Now, corporations are afforded greater protections than free citizens. They can run roughshod over their workers, their shareholders, and anyone else with only minimal legal restrictions. This power is ultimately detrimental to a free Republic as it insures that profit, not law, rules the land. This is the source of protest.

[alan]

Solinvictus70:

Some very interesting points in your last. Not new, but interesting anyhow.

[Orthonym]

Oh yeah! You're referring, of course, to the Roscoe Conkling interpretation of the 14th amendment. I never could, nor could Adam Smith, understand why a corporation, a creature of the state, a legal fiction , should be entitled to enjoy the natural rights of a natural person!

[fallingblock]

" It seems that in El Presidente's America..."
************************************************************

Oh My Gosh! Vincente Fox has won the election a year early!:D

I kinda like Dubya;)

[Solinvictus70]

That is an allusion to the increasing tendency of our Republic to imitate a 3rd world banana republic with a diminishing rule of law and an increasing militarization of civil police who are used to impose the will of the regime.

[c_yeager]

While i cant comment on the specifics of miami i because i wasnt there, i CAN comment on how the national media tends to spin stories of this nature. I was at the WTO riots in seattle. Witnessed them first hand in fact. And let me tell you the national media ALWAYS comes out on the side of the "innocent protesters". There WAS footage of persons breaking into stores, damaging property, and commiting assaults. It was seen on local coverage plenty. Did any of that footage find its way to CNN? Nope. But, they did manage to find a 5 second clip of a cop pushing some guy with a mask to the ground. No explanation of what happened before or after accompanied the clip so the viewer was left to make their own conclusions strongly influenced by the commentary of the reporter.

[greyhound]

Without exception, media outlets portray anti-globalization protestors in the most negative way possible and throughout the print media, the mention of activists evokes an immediate invective against the individuals and their views.

Well, I guess I disagree also. I'm always careful to point out that the "loyal opposition" was just as cruel to President Clinton as President Bush, but the media is the one exception.

Back in Clinton's day, Battle of Seattle and all that, the press did treat the anti-global lefists as negative.

However, once the WOT terror started, and the leftists at these protests naturally incorporated anti-war, anti-Bush sentiments into the demonstrations, they became "housewives and teachers, grandparents and carpenters, a slice of middle America". Before the WOT, they were portrayed as a bunch of scruffy students waving giant puppets.

[w4rma]

Protesters: Video captured civil rights abuses during FTAA talks

CORALIE CARLSON
Associated Press

MIAMI - Protesters showed videotape Wednesday of last week's trade talks in which police in riot gear trampled a protester, shot rubber bullets at an attorney who had her back turned and chased away a demonstrator who had silently kneeled before them in prayer.

The footage was taped by the Independent Media Center, which had about 30 journalists with video cameras at the Free Trade Area of the Americas meeting and protests, said Sara Kendall, one of the journalists. She said four of their broadcast-quality video cameras were confiscated or broken.

The protests turned sporadically violent in the final days of the talks. Some of the thousands of demonstrators threw objects and fired slingshots at officers; police hit protesters with batons, zapped them with stun guns and dispersed them with gas and sprays.

The video, which Kendall said was edited from footage from about six cameras, was played at a press conference Wednesday in downtown Miami but was not immediately released to the public.

The footage showed a young man by himself on his knees with his hands folded in prayer in front of a line of riot police.

Several police ran out of the line, pushed him with their riot shields and he fled to the sound of gun shots. Police shot rubber bullets and bean bags during the sometimes violent demonstrations.

The video also showed a woman in a dress suit and red blazer holding a poster and standing in front of the demonstrators She identified herself to police as an attorney and said she was unarmed.

When she turned her back to the police, she was shot in the back of the leg with a rubber bullet. Another time, as police opened fire on the protesters, she huddled beneath her sign for protection, but was still hit in the face.

In another scene, police were moving forward in a line when a protester fell in front of them. His friend unsuccessfully tried to help him up as the police walked over him.

The rest of the video depicted protesters with bloody faces, police spraying pepper spray or tear gas at demonstrators, and scuffles between police and protesters.

Miami police did not return several calls Wednesday afternoon seeking comment.

However, in a letter to the AFL-CIO released Wednesday, Police Chief John Timoney said his department will review the FTAA security operation and produce a public report. Timoney also defended the police action, saying police placed primary emphasis on avoiding the use of force.

"I very much regret every occasion when police have to resort to force to overcome a violent attack," he said in the letter.

The AFL-CIO and other civil rights groups have said police abused demonstrators during last week's trade talks, arrested them without cause and denied them restrooms, water and phones.

Amnesty International and demonstrator's groups called Wednesday for a full and independent into police practices during the trade talks.

A coalition called Save Our Civil Liberties demanded that Timoney, Miami-Dade Police Chief Carlos Alvarez, Miami Mayor Manny Diaz and Miami-Dade Mayor Alex Penelas be removed from their offices and held criminally responsible. The group also demanded that all charges against all demonstrators be dropped.

Protesters, journalists and a volunteer medic told how they were arrested or beaten or both.

"This was a paramilitary assault," said Naomi Archer, a spokeswoman for South Floridians for Fair Trade and Global Justice. "There has to be some accountability."
http://www.bradenton.com/mld/bradenton/7358653.htm

[Solinvictus70]

There's one set of photographs that were briefly on Yahoo showing a woman kneeling with prayer beads in front of a shield wall of cops. In the next pictures, she is holding her bloody head as she was obviously wounded. This is America and this is what happens if you challenge corporate power.

[TheeBadOne]

There's one set of photographs that were briefly on Yahoo showing a woman kneeling with prayer beads in front of a shield wall of cops. In the next pictures, she is holding her bloody head as she was obviously wounded. This is America and this is what happens if you challenge corporate power.
A plus B, thus Z... :confused:

[Jeff Timm]

The ACLU was created to use the laws of the USofA to destroy it. They want to:

1. Enrich lawyers.
2. Destroy capitalism and institute Soviet Style communism. (See the usual quotes from the founder of the ACLU)

Here in Ohio two bright young ACLU lawyer types sued in Federal court, because in the Seal of a local town, there appeared a book and a cross.

The result was more than a years average pay transferred to the filthy shyster scum, and much time expended in courts, not to mention repainting and modifying official documents.

The relatively positive attitute toward the ACLU has been instigated by the propaganda of the left wing media. There is NO GOOD AT ALL in the ACLU.

Geoff
Who believes in equality under the law; therefore if a complaint by an ex-spouse is sufficient evidence to put someone on a child molester watch list, then membership in the ACLU should also qualify.

[Solinvictus70]

On the picture series, the caption indicated that she had been caught in a group that had been corralled into a fenced area and essentially prevented from leaving the area whether ordered to or not. I should have included that in the post.

Jeff, which is it; is the ACLU a communist organization or are they essentially capitalist in attitude? If the attorneys in question took fees like you stated, then I'd hardly say the Marxist label was deserved. The ACLU was founded in the late years of WW1 to defend those who were persecuted for speaking out against US involvement in the conflict. I'm not certain if you were aware, but a teacher in the US was imprisoned for sedition for simply stating that Lenin was smart. It was that bad and many fear that in the current political environment, it will come around again.

[Orthonym]

I think the ACLU, when started in the 20's, really was composed mostly of more-or-less Bolshevik types from NYC - yes, horrors! Jews from Eastern Europe, a large plurality of the members. ( As well as some came-over-on the Mayflower descendents) So what? If it takes some recently-arrived foreigners to remind us of our own principles which we might have forgotten, I say let's listen! (Keep the salt shaker handy, of course, as any prudent grownup should do. (Some things the ACLU says should be taken with a LARGE grain of salt.))

[geekWithA.45]

Those of you who've been here a while know that I'm not a cop basher, and that I have respect for the folks who have the crappy job of dealing with the scum of society.

They are, like most concentrations of power, a mixed bag, and sometimes the balance of the mixture goes the wrong way.

What I cannot do is refute what I have seen with my own eyes, and heard with my own ears.

They arrive in the area, issue a clear and loud order that people in the area need to disperse, usually due to the assembly not being peaceful.

I hate to disagree, but I've heard the phrase "this is an illegal gathering, you are ordered to disperse" a few too many times.

Every single time I've heard it, and it must be nearly a dozen, there was no violence to either people or property evident, nor any particularly unruly conduct.

What was present, in every single case, was some behaviour such as protest or partying that was politically embarrassing to those in power.

The one case, many, many years ago in which any measure of violence did erupt was pretty much instigated by the police being unnecessarilly heavy handed, and the subjects of that heavy handedness objected, at first politely, and then with increasing vigor. (Fortunately, I saw the dynamic shaping up early, and bailed, watching from afar)

Cops are humans like the rest of us, and like most, their expectations, what they've been lead to believe, and whatnot will affect their interpretations of ambiguous scenes, and the action they take based on them.

The psychology of the mob goes both ways. It applies to the commies in goofy costumes, and it also applies to the guys with badges in padded armor.

[Coronach]

She said four of their broadcast-quality video cameras were confiscated or broken.Well, if true, thats obviously unacceptable. Personally, I doubt this occurred, but we shall see.The video, which Kendall said was edited from footage from about six cameras...See, you can do amazing things with editing. I would find video in its entirety more compelling.The footage showed a young man by himself on his knees with his hands folded in prayer in front of a line of riot police. Several police ran out of the line, pushed him with their riot shields and he fled to the sound of gun shots.In other words, the police took the time to clear an obviously non-violent protester, standing alone between them and a (likely) violent crowd, out of the way before they deployed crowd control munitions. This is bad...uh...how?The video also showed a woman in a dress suit and red blazer holding a poster and standing in front of the demonstrators She identified herself to police as an attorney and said she was unarmed. When she turned her back to the police, she was shot in the back of the leg with a rubber bullet. So, where they aiming at her, or the crowd in general? Personally, if I'm a guy with a 37mm gas gun or a firearm loaded with rubber bullets, I'm not going to be particularly likely to shoot directly at an attorney in a bad-shoot situation. They can file suit on you for free, over their lunch break. ;) Another time, as police opened fire on the protesters, she huddled beneath her sign for protection, but was still hit in the face. So, why did she not leave the area, as required by law?In another scene, police were moving forward in a line when a protester fell in front of them. His friend unsuccessfully tried to help him up as the police walked over him. The rest of the video depicted protesters with bloody faces, police spraying pepper spray or tear gas at demonstrators, and scuffles between police and protesters. Crowd control munitions are not pleasant. I will point out that if the assembly had been peacefull, or had dispersed when ordered to do so by the police (as they are empowered to do under law, and always have been empowered to do, ever since the inception of policing in America), they could have avoided all of this.A coalition called Save Our Civil Liberties demanded that Timoney, Miami-Dade Police Chief Carlos Alvarez, Miami Mayor Manny Diaz and Miami-Dade Mayor Alex Penelas be removed from their offices and held criminally responsible. The group also demanded that all charges against all demonstrators be dropped.I think the final demand listed says a lot about the leanings of this group. "We should be allowed to do anything and everything we want, including destroying or stealing the property of others, and not be prosecuted." :rolleyes:

On the picture series, the caption indicated that she had been caught in a group that had been corralled into a fenced area and essentially prevented from leaving the area whether ordered to or not. I should have included that in the post.Ok, this sounds like the endgame of a mass-arrest scenario. One method of riot control is to disperse a crowd, but this tends to just push the problem around. Another method is to confront a crowd, issue to the command to leave and give them a chance to comply. Then, after time has elapsed, the crowd that remains is pushed into an enclosed area and arrested en mass. While this is obviously much harder on the police, it does have the benefit of not just shuffling a destructive crowd around.

As always, my statements in the thread are based upon the assumption that Metro-Dade/Miami PD is doing crowd control properly. If they're not issuing commands, not reaching the legal thresholds to disperse crowds, wantonly confiscating property or stripping property from persons without just cause, my assumptions go right out the window.

[Coronach]

Every single time I've heard it, and it must be nearly a dozen, there was no violence to either people or property evident, nor any particularly unruly conduct.Well, as I was not present at these events, I can't dispute these facts. I'll just say this...I've been present at a few myself, and each time the police responded, there were many people who said, in what I feel to be honest bewilderment, that there was no violence or property destruction going on. They were incorrect- it was going on, they just did not witness it. Does this apply to you? I dunno. But its something to think about.The psychology of the mob goes both ways. It applies to the commies in goofy costumes, and it also applies to the guys with badges in padded armor.Actually, this is completely false. The cops do not do anything in such a situation without an order. This is done not only to ensure an orderly, organized response, but also to avoid the mob-mentality you mention.

Again, assuming it is being done properly. Screwups can always occur. This is a government gig, after all. ;) I've just seen little evidence of such in Miami.

Mike

[Solinvictus70]

The same thing happened to protestors in DC earlier this fall. They were ordered to disperse while facing a shield wall on one side and chain link on the other. Of course, they were unable to leave, so they were arrested en masse.
Miami has proven something else: it seems that the police have no qualms about firing on unarmed crowds. Sure, they were using rubber bullets, this is a dress rehersal for the real thing. Something to think about.....:scrutiny:

[Coronach]

:rolleyes:

News reports I saw had the police taking bottles, rocks, bricks, and projectiles from slingshots. That is not unarmed. It is also not a peaceful assembly. And are you really claiming that the demonstrators were stuck between the police on one side and a fence on the other at the onset of the encounter? As I was not there, I cannot dispute this if you claim it, but I find it unlikely. What was on the other two sides?

Again, I won't deny that the police might have, as an endgame, backed the crowd down into a dead end and conducted a mass arrest. I'd actually encourage such a response, provided the crowd was given an opportunity to disperse prior to this. But being finally corralled after a lengthy skirmish and then saying that you couldn't escape is rather dishonest.

Mike

[Jeff Timm]

Jeff, which is it; is the ACLU a communist organization or are they essentially capitalist in attitude? If the attorneys in question took fees like you stated, then I'd hardly say the Marxist label was deserved.

You are trying to play games with labels. The worst form of Government is an Oligarchy ( http://www.yourdictionary.com/ahd/o/o0064900.html ) and the smaller the ruling group the worse it gets. Cross references: Nazi Germany, the USSR, and todays Communist China or North Korea.

The "superior," whoever manages to fool the people long enough to get in a position to kill everyone who objects to the way they run things, rule.

Lawyers are doing this now and have been working for it for decades. They suck money from almost every transaction in the nation. You can't even die without a lawyer now days. As for our tax money, over a BILLION DOLLARS in legal fees have gone to lawyers in Cleveland, Ohio. After almost 50 years, they still can't define "busing."

Cross reference: Mary Jo Kopechne. and Ted Kennedy.

Geoff
Who remembers an old quote: "One law for the masters another for the slaves, and all the country's fathers are a-spinning in their graves."

[Orthonym]

lawyers won't actually shoot you! (Those $6,000 quail guns aren't all that good against humans, anyway) What the lawyers WILL do is terrorize a sufficiency of the normal folks to get all riled up and shoot you.