Question about gun shipping.


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Flea
March 17, 2010, 09:06 AM
This is a curiosity question... I know its illegal to send a gun directly to an individual in another state without an FFL being involved in the transaction. However, let's say one of us was selling a fine rifle at a local gun show and came across an individual interested who didn't have cash with them. Now let's say this individual agrees to a purchase price but lives on the opposite side of your home state. Provided payment is sincere and you did check the drivers license during face to face time, could you legally ship the gun directly to the person since they're a resident of your state?

This is just a curiosity question that popped in my head after reading the Gunbroker rant post.

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Sam1911
March 17, 2010, 09:49 AM
From the ATF's web site FAQ:

Q: May a nonlicensee ship a firearm through the U.S. Postal Service?
A nonlicensee may not transfer a firearm to a non-licensed resident of another State. A nonlicensee may mail a shotgun or rifle to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. The Postal Service recommends that long guns be sent by registered mail and that no marking of any kind which would indicate the nature of the contents be placed on the outside of any parcel containing firearms. Handguns are not mailable. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun.

[18 U.S.C. 1715, 922(a)(3), 922(a)(5) and 922 (a)(2)(A)]

Q: May a nonlicensee ship a firearm by common or contract carrier?
A nonlicensee may ship a firearm by a common or contract carrier to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. In addition, Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm and prohibits common or contract carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(2)(A), 922(a) (3), 922(a)(5) and 922(e), 27 CFR 478.31 and 478.30]

Guillermo
March 17, 2010, 09:50 AM
I would think "illegal" as the transaction truly did occur across state lines, you just set it up FTF.

jimmyraythomason
March 17, 2010, 09:52 AM
Straw purchase? How can it be a straw purchase when no 3rd party is involved?

Sam1911
March 17, 2010, 09:53 AM
Straw purchase? How can it be a straw purchase when no 3rd party is involved?

No straw purchase. I misread and was editing as you replied.

Guillermo
March 17, 2010, 09:54 AM
One thing that I have been curious about is shipping to myself. When travelling it would be easier to overnight a handgun to my destination and have it waiting when I get there.

Looking at the law posted by Sam1911 I would think that such is not legal.

Sam1911
March 17, 2010, 09:54 AM
I would think "illegal" as the transaction truly did occur across state lines, you just set it up FTF.

Reread the question. This is entirely within his home state.

jimmyraythomason
March 17, 2010, 09:55 AM
The OP stated that they were across state not across statelines. BIG difference.

Bubbles
March 17, 2010, 09:55 AM
Perfectly legal as the buyer and seller are residents of the same state and there are no state laws prohibiting it.

That said, the guy at the UPS or FedEx counter may throw a fit about shipping a firearm to a non-FFL as most don't know Federal laws.

Guillermo
March 17, 2010, 09:56 AM
opposite side of your home state

legal in most states

(I am not a lawyer nor do I play one on TV)

jimmyraythomason
March 17, 2010, 10:26 AM
the guy at the UPS or FedEx Unless it's a hub they will not accept it. Company policy not law.most don't know Federal laws.
or their own company's policy.

Sam1911
March 17, 2010, 10:29 AM
One thing that I have been curious about is shipping to myself. When travelling it would be easier to overnight a handgun to my destination and have it waiting when I get there.

Q: May a nonlicensee ship firearms interstate for his or her use in hunting or other lawful activity?
Yes. A person may ship a firearm to himself or herself in care of another person in the State where he or she intends to hunt or engage in any other lawful activity. The package should be addressed to the owner. Persons other than the owner should not open the package and take possession of the firearm.


Here's the FAQ: http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/unlicensed-persons.html

Guillermo
March 17, 2010, 10:31 AM
thank you Sam

wishin
March 17, 2010, 11:17 AM
Since the gun wasn't actually "sold" (no payment made), would it really be legal to ship to a prospective buyer since the FTF sale was not consummated?

Guillermo
March 17, 2010, 11:22 AM
no, because it is transfered

the way I understand it, a transfer of ownership cannot occur across state lines without an FFL

Again, I am a good guy IE: not a lawyer

Sam1911
March 17, 2010, 11:31 AM
the way I understand it, a transfer of ownership cannot occur across state lines without an FFLCorrect, but where does it cross state lines in this scenario?

Sam1911
March 17, 2010, 11:34 AM
Since the gun wasn't actually "sold" (no payment made), would it really be legal to ship to a prospective buyer since the FTF sale was not consummated?

The ATF doesn't say "Face to Face." They say:

Q: To whom may an unlicensed person transfer firearms under the GCA?
A person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his State, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may loan or rent a firearm to a resident of any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may sell or transfer a firearm to a licensee in any State. However, a firearm other than a curio or relic may not be transferred interstate to a licensed collector.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(d), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]


So, the sale of a long arm, taking place between two residents of the same state, via the mail would then be legal regardless of whether they'd ever met.

So long as neither had reason to believe the other was a prohibited person.

jimmyraythomason
March 17, 2010, 11:47 AM
so, the sale of a long arm, taking place between two residents of the same state, via the mail would then be legal regardless of whether they'd ever met.

So long as neither had reason to believe the other was a prohibited person.
bingo!

Guillermo
March 17, 2010, 11:48 AM
Correct, but where does it cross state lines in this scenario?

oops

I am stuck on out-of-state transfers

wishin
March 17, 2010, 01:12 PM
...So, the sale of a long arm, taking place between two residents of the same state, via the mail would then be legal regardless of whether they'd ever met.

Thanks for the clarification. The term FTF really means resident to resident and should not be taken literally.

Sam1911
March 17, 2010, 01:17 PM
The term FTF really means resident to resident and should not be taken literally.
Yes, but to look at the other side of the coin -- good luck finding folks who will sell this way. I'm sure it happens a lot, but there are at least an equal number of folks (dealers, too) who are way more 'careful' than the law requires.

Witness the number of sellers who won't ship directly to an out-of-state FFL without going through their own FFL first. Or the number of FFLs who won't receive a gun from a non-licensee out-of-state.

In most cases folks will do a FTF sale if you are literally face-to-face. I'd like to know how many realize that it's legal to sell/ship to any non-prohibited person within their state?

I'd wager a fiver that you'd get at least some folks accusing you of trying to set them up in a "sting!" :D

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