Why is there such insularity in the gun community?


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reckless carolinian
March 19, 2010, 01:00 AM
A simple question for you. With very few exceptions, there seems to be a very insular and exclusive nature to gun ranges, shops, and the community of firearms in general. Why? Is it really to keep the "riff raff" out, as I have been told? Is it a function of where I live? It would appear that to get more people interested, you'd actually want to welcome them. Teach them what you know, not dismiss or ignore them. Do you know why I don't hunt? Because I don't know how, and there isn't anywhere to hunt anymore here. This forum is about the only place I've found that actually understands how to treat newcomers. Many of my friends have no interest in guns, including my best friend of 18 years. Sees no point in having a gun at all. I'd loved to drag him to the range, get some trigger time in, show him how fun it can be, but ranges are few and far here. The two indoor ranges here are pistols only. So what can be done to make shooting more accessable to the newcomer?

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armoredman
March 19, 2010, 02:49 AM
Get picked on enough, told you're scum enough by the media, called names in public by elected officials, you tend to get a bit insular. That's a problem we all need to work on.

Cosmoline
March 19, 2010, 03:09 AM
I haven't noticed that here at all. Folks at the range tend to be pretty open. It's not an exclusive community. Most houses have rifles, at least.

cyclopsshooter
March 19, 2010, 03:45 AM
maybe because it is a male dominated environment- we don't do sunshine and roses

earlthegoat2
March 19, 2010, 03:51 AM
I haven't noticed that here at all. Folks at the range tend to be pretty open. It's not an exclusive community. Most houses have rifles, at least.

Thats because you live in Alaska. When I was there in the Air Force you would be strung up in the town square if you refused to go shooting or hunting. :eek:

BHP FAN
March 19, 2010, 03:53 AM
I have never met more open and friendly people than I've met at the range.Around here, they're willing to let you shoot their guns,and ammo,and will spot for you while you do it.

RedAlert
March 19, 2010, 04:09 AM
I think it is like many aspects of our society now. You need to spend the time with the people to let them open up. People do tend to be more cautious now than in times past. Look around you. Notice how many folks are wrapped up in their iPODS or Cell Phones?

I suggest, if there is a pistol range near you that you spend some time there even if only blasting off some .22s. Once folks see you around, you will more easily make contacts.

Of course, all bets are off if you constantly point the business end of a pistol at your fellow shooters and not the target ;-0

Ralph

MarineOne
March 19, 2010, 05:49 AM
Think of it as an exclusive club.

There are a lot of folks on here that like to go shooting, hunting, and camping .... and sometimes do all three at the same time.

Some folks come here because they have had an "experience"; some found out that the evil black rifle won't come flying down the hallway shooting full auto after jumping out of the safe it was locked in, and others because they found out the hard way that criminals don't follow the rules and never will.

But the best part is we're willing to share what we know because its enjoyable to us.

Find a rod and gun club, an IDPA group, or if you're a vet (I saw your swabbie tag) try your local VFW, Moose lodge, Elks, etc., and network with people.


Hope that helps :)



Kris

Sav .250
March 19, 2010, 08:18 AM
" many of my friends have no interest in guns." Try joing a gun club or something of that nature. Hearing the same song and dance from your present friends, leaves you no room to grow as far as hunting/guns goes.
Get out of the "rut" and take the next step. Come to think of it, a good first step would be to join the NRA. Visit you local Gun shows (if you have any.) Keep looking asking questions.
We are out there!

EddieNFL
March 19, 2010, 09:19 AM
Get picked on enough, told you're scum enough by the media, called names in public by elected officials, you tend to get a bit insular. That's a problem we all need to work on.
In addition to being labeled a potential terrorist by your own government because you have a military background.

Rembrandt
March 19, 2010, 09:23 AM
Why is there such insularity in the gun community?.....Do you know why I don't hunt? Because I don't know how, and there isn't anywhere to hunt anymore here.

Many of my friends have no interest in guns......I'd loved to drag him to the range, get some trigger time in, show him how fun it can be, but ranges are few and far here. So what can be done to make shooting more accessable to the newcomer?

Too many people in today's society like to play the victim card and blame their lack of initiative on something or someone else. If you really wanted to hunt, you'd find a way to do it.....if you wanted more shooting ranges, you'd take the initiative to start one rather than criticizing others for not making one available to you. You get out of life what you put into it.

This country was founded to give you the opportunity and freedom to do those things....not to provide them for you.

murdoc rose
March 19, 2010, 09:30 AM
you don't have to go to a shooting range to shoot a gun, best bet is to find some friends that like guns, shouldn't be too hard. Hunting is more of wanting to go than anything else.

huntsman
March 19, 2010, 09:31 AM
maybe because it is a male dominated environment- we don't do sunshine and roses
+1 Pure macho with a little testosterone on the side.;)

Do you know why I don't hunt? Because I don't know how, and there isn't anywhere to hunt anymore here.

I can see the lack of hunting grounds being an issue ( at least with firearms) but as for knowledge in hunting this IS the golden age. There are more books and now Videos available than there were in the 70's (when I started) and bowhunters now have more opportunities to succeed with the explosion of the deer population.

I had to teach myself deer and grouse hunting dog training and other outdoor skills because my Dad was not physically able to get into the woods most of the time.

Teach them what you know, not dismiss or ignore them


What ticks me off is when you run up against a "self proclaimed expert" who thinks his wisdom is the only thing of worth no matter if it's flawed or not.

Carl
March 19, 2010, 09:34 AM
It might just depend on the region. Some places the people at the range are friendly and informative and will jump up in a second to answer a question/give out advice if asked for it. Other places, some people are afraid to even go to the range with the fear of making a newbie mistake and end up getting yelled at by a RO with a pistol, or someone else that says he draws his weapon and threatens someone if they sweep him. That could scare a lot of new people away.

After reading some stories here, I was nervous the first time I went to an indoor pistol range. I was afraid that if I didn't do everything smoothly that everyone would sense I'm new to pistol shooting and think I don't know anything, or I'll do something newbish and get yelled at by someone and end up in the "dumbest thing you've seen on the range" thread.

RugerBob
March 19, 2010, 09:40 AM
I hear ya on the 'no place to hunt' or 'don't know how' and where to 'shoot your rifle'. Maybe someone at the pistol range can guide you to a local rifle/combo range. I lived and hunted deer growing up. After army service (3 years) I moved to a city area in texas. I was gonna hunt, but had to travel far and share a leased piece of land at high $$$ for 5 days. It was alot of money for me even splitting it 4 ways. So, for the next 18 years I never hunted. Went to the local range (League City Texas). Was ok, but not what I was used to. See if theres a range near you, or at least find some like minded people if possible. I ended up moving way north as my wife wanted too . So, for the last 6 years I have been able to hunt again. It took a few years years to meet decent like minded people. Got some nice clubs I joined. Went to the monthly meetings. One club doubled the dues and we did get rid of some riff raff. Not near as many holes in range roof and garbage at the range. Not all people I have met or shot with are friendly. Not mean, just there for them selves and thats ok. Being the carolinas I'd figure you would have better luck. Be safe and have fun....

bhhacker
March 19, 2010, 10:31 AM
As a younger gun enthusiast that has anti gun parents, I have never had a person teach me how to do anything in real life. (Still looking for someone in Austin, texas or in Juneau, Alaska if you feel like doing that :P)


Thehighroad has been my go to source for advice concerning a wide gamut of things. The knowledge from fellow members + a little common sense and me willing to get my hands dirty has gotten me pretty far. Still stuck to the regarding the hunting thing, but I plan on buying some land later so i figure ill get it in eventually.

wishin
March 19, 2010, 10:42 AM
I get the feeling that for the most part it's a them against us mentality, making some RKBAers suspicious and intolerant of who's perceived as "them". I see that attitude right here on THR amongst our very own.

xcgates
March 19, 2010, 11:00 AM
I'd say a lot of it has to do with where you are. My parents live near a big city, and around there ranges tend to be very expensive, and you need to be sponsored to become a member. I suspect it is to prevent people from getting in who are not going to follow the rules, and risk a shut down of the range.

Now, where I live most of the year, in rural upstate NY, I found a range that costs $10 per year, and you can buy memberships everywhere from the hunting/fishing store, to the pizza shop, to the barber's. There there is a clubhouse that is unlocked for regular events, and a rifle range, shotgun stations, and a pistol range. Highly informal, and I love it all the more.

And no, I have not encountered any of the horror stories about stupid things at the range that people talk about here. Its the kind of place where people use you going to change targets as a chance to shoot the breeze and grab a smoke. Sometimes seems like people spend more time chatting that shooting, actually.

ny32182
March 19, 2010, 11:00 AM
There are almost as many firearms as there are people in this country. You can't make any broad generalization about the "type of person who owns a gun"; it would be nearly as futile as trying to define the "type of person who drives a car".... because almost ALL types of people do it.

You will find gun owners who fall into any and all of the following categories, and many more:

-open and friendly
-'insular'
-helpful
-rude
-paranoid
-conservative
-liberal
-white, or black, or spanish, or asian, or....
-knowledgeable
-cocky and sure they know everything
-high school dropout, to Ph.D.
-$30k a year, on up to high income
-male, or female, or.... :scrutiny:

..and the list goes on. It is too broad a segment of society to pigieonhole in any one or five ways. Just at my local IDPA matches here in BFE, SC, we've got a pretty good cross section of the above represented, and that is just one small region of the country not known for its "diversity".

Once you get into an enthusiast concentrated community (doesn't matter the topic... firearms, cars, motorcycles, boats, whatever), which is what this website is, you will start to see the "extremes" of all facets of the above. That is just the way it works.

If you want shooter friends, you will need to search out their concentrations locally, just like you would need to with any other interest.

HGUNHNTR
March 19, 2010, 11:25 AM
[Pruned... -Sam]We all have varying opionions, good grief look at the caliber war threads. That variation in opinion is partially what has driven the incredible diversity we enjoy in the shooting sports today.

al123
March 19, 2010, 11:32 AM
I've found gun folks to be more serious then let's say astronomy hobbyists. Maybe has something to do with handling deadly force :p

In my narrow confines, folks here believe that anyone who owns guns is a nutcase or has 'something to prove'. You also may become a target for burglars. It's best to keep your mouth shut. So I understand if there's a view of insularity about gun owners.

ny32182
March 19, 2010, 11:39 AM
I've found gun folks to be more serious then let's say astronomy hobbyists. Maybe has something to do with handling deadly force

Read up on the debate about whether Pluto was/is a planet, and you might reevaluate the seriousness of astronomy hobbyists... :D

longtooth
March 19, 2010, 11:44 AM
Our range in Texas sure dont have that problem.
I are a RedNeck & wear the title prowdly. If you still tip your hat to a Southern Belle you may be too.

Cant speak for other places cause I aint seen all of Angelina County yet let alone the Carolinas.

cerberus65
March 19, 2010, 11:48 AM
Is your location accurate? And are you "from around there"? The reason I ask that is because I grew up just about 100 miles north of you. Appalachian folks are naturally a bit standoffish until they get to know you (but then they'll give you the shirt off their backs). If you're not from around there you'll have to work a bit harder to earn folks' trust.

I do have a hard time believing no one around there is interested in guns. That doesn't match my experience in the area at all. Enlarge your circle of friends and I bet you'll be blown away how common guns are. But they're not going to tell you about them unless they trust you.

It also shouldn't be too hard to find hunting areas around there. Those are beautiful mountains you live in with plenty of areas where the trees go on as far as the eye can see in every direction. Unless, of course, all the land has been scarfed up by folks wanting to build summer cabins. But there's a lot of land up there so I can't believe we've got that bad off yet. I started into hunting two seasons ago and I found folks at work and at church that have helped me out some. I still have a long ways to go but I'm having fun as I slowly figure things out. http://www.ncwildlife.org/Hunting/H_Game_Land_Maps.htm looks like a good place to start looking for places to hunt. Good luck and enjoy!

Sam1911
March 19, 2010, 11:49 AM
We're on the verge of this thread heating up and bursting into flames. Let's not discuss who is or isn't an "elitist" -- or what constitutes an "elitist" -- or a "redneck." Or "Elitists and Rednecks ... Have they Infiltrated THR?!?!?"

The original discussion has merit, but chewing on each other is wholly unproductive. Mmmmm'k? :)

Officers'Wife
March 19, 2010, 12:12 PM
This is too loaded of a subject for me to fully comment. Enough to say that although there is a common thread of firearms possession not all people are able to get past other views. Some dealing with firearms some not. In many cases these differences are divisive enough it's better to keep the groups separated.

Magic_Man
March 19, 2010, 12:45 PM
Every gun person I have met has been nothing but nice & open. Always enjoyable to have a conversation about a hobby I enjoy w/a stranger that enjoys it too.

ArmedBear
March 19, 2010, 12:49 PM
I've noticed that a few of us think that a lot of people are open and friendly.

And a few of us think that a lot of people are insular and unfriendly.

There are a couple of possibilities here.

One is geographic differences. The US has many subcultures, some friendly, some not.

Another, and it's worth considering, is this. If you're not in a place known for being unfriendly, and many people treat you like they don't want to have anything to do with you, then maybe the problem isn't them. Maybe it's you.

I'm usually friendly, and overwhelmingly cordial. I'm often the one who speaks up and tries to welcome people who walk onto the skeet range or into the pistol club. But there are some people I steer clear of, too.

Just sayin'...

JShirley
March 19, 2010, 01:45 PM
I have a simple question for you, OP. Why do YOU feel that there seems to be a very insular and exclusive nature to gun ranges, shops, and the community of firearms in general? Gun owners in my experience go out of their way to welcome new members to the community, as long as they take a little effort to be safe and listen.

You're asking two questions, which are not necessarily related. You're asking about accessibility and attitude. These are different things.

GEM
March 19, 2010, 01:54 PM
Are other intensive sports any different before you draw broad conclusions?

I don't remember any cuddlies at the golf course (boring).

ArmedBear
March 19, 2010, 02:01 PM
Are other intensive sports any different before you draw broad conclusions?


That's another factor. A nice sunny practice session can be a hell of a lot friendlier than an official competition, where people want you to shut up and let them concentrate on getting "in the zone" -- just like any other sport I've ever tried.

Nick5182
March 19, 2010, 02:10 PM
Most of the people I've met at our local ranges are great people too. They always want to show off their new toys and are willing to give and take advice from other shooters.

waterhouse
March 19, 2010, 02:11 PM
Could be any number of reasons. I generally find people at the range to be very polite and welcoming.

One reason people may be cautious and hesitant to hang out with new shooters could just be the dangers associated with guns.

There is a local co-ed sports rec league here where you can sign up a team to play basketball, flag football, bowling, whatever. It is an extremely "welcoming" group. Any one can join, and a huge majority of the people are super friendly.

I've got a friend that races cars on a track with a group of like minded people. That is a much more "exclusive" group . . . you have to have references, take a safety test, and a few other things. I don't know squat about racing a car, but it is no easy task to get out on a track with these guys.

It isn't that the racing group doesn't want new members, but being out on a track with someone holds a higher risk than bowling or flag football, so they are more cautious about who they let join. The same could be true of firearms.

I often read about people being nervous at public ranges and the yahoos they see there. I belong to a private range. While not overly difficult to join (there is no membership cap, and dues are reasonable), it is a bit of a process. You have to attend a mandatory safety lecture and range orientation. You have to either have a carry permit or submit to a criminal background check, etc.

Possibly as a result of this, or possibly just that we generally live in a gun friendly area, members are super friendly. Someone almost always offers to let me shoot their guns when I'm there, and I do the same. I find the people there very welcoming, but to someone who is not a member looking in from the outside it may appear that the private club doesn't want new people around.

ArmedBear
March 19, 2010, 02:17 PM
One reason people may be cautious and hesitant to hang out with new shooters could just be the dangers associated with guns.

Yeah, or things like Holocaust survivors and WW II veterans out shooting, and some young guy with tattoos shows up wearing a black shirt with ZYCLON B on it in big white letters. He was summarily escorted off the Trap range by a bunch of ordinarily nice old guys, threatening him, with shotguns in their hands.

Now I'd met the guy, and he wasn't a bad guy, or a skinhead or anything. He did, however, have terrible fashion sense.

The shooting sports are populated by people with "old-school" sensibilities, whether the people are young or old. That means that shooting venues can be self-policing. If you're the one being policed, look in the mirror first.

mljdeckard
March 19, 2010, 02:23 PM
What I thought was snobbishness when I was younger was really just my own insecurity, worrying that I was good enough to hang out with more serious shooters. It was entirely in my head.

The only hostility I have ever seen at any range was due to unsafe behavior.

Hokkmike
March 19, 2010, 02:25 PM
The thing that bothers me is not any sort of insular nature of shooters and our sport but rather that slowly, bit by bit, and inevitably, interest in shooting, hunting, etc. seems to be dwindling.

ny32182
March 19, 2010, 02:26 PM
I'm 28 and don't have "old school sensibilities". Threatening someone with a weapon can get you shot, I don't care how old you are or what you did in the 40's.

ArmedBear
March 19, 2010, 02:27 PM
slowly, bit by bit, and inevitably, interest in shooting, hunting, etc. seems to be dwindling.

Really?

You should check out a range in California. Some places, you have to wait around for an hour or two just to get a turn to shoot. There's much to be said for "forbidden fruit".

ArmedBear
March 19, 2010, 02:29 PM
Threatening someone with a weapon can get you shot, I don't care how old you are or what you did in the 40's.

That's why it helps to have a group of people with weapons when you want to eject someone from a shooting range. The thing about old guys is that, while they may not be as quick as they once were, they're a hell of a lot smarter.

A range does have the right to refuse service to anyone.

Ronsch
March 19, 2010, 02:30 PM
I am in Juneau...I teach Hunter Education as well as being an NRA RSO.

I was photographed for the Juneau Empire on Friday, 12 March 2010 edition, teaching DZ Hunter Ed classes.

ny32182
March 19, 2010, 02:32 PM
Is it a private range, and are the guys "escorting him off" administrators with the legal right to do so? If not, I think he does have the right to refuse.

ArmedBear
March 19, 2010, 02:40 PM
LOL

Why don't you go to a privately-owned range with a t-shirt glorifying the Holocaust and assert your right to refuse to leave? Have fun.

ny32182
March 19, 2010, 02:47 PM
I spend most of my time at public ranges, and I'll wear a purple sock on my head if I want...

That was part of the point of my original post. No one demographic can claim "dibs on gun ownership" or dibs on the right to shoot, or the right to use a PUBLIC facility. Gun ownership is a common thing in society that spans all demographics and personality types. As it should be.

ArmedBear
March 19, 2010, 02:55 PM
The ethic of chasing away people who appear to be neo-Nazis away from any gathering of civilized individuals should also span all demographics and personality types. Purple socks have nothing to do with it.

Do you show up at the range wearing a white hood and robe?

Sam1911
March 19, 2010, 03:24 PM
Denying someone access to a public place/facility to engage in a lawful activity, because you don't like the way they look or what they might say or believe really isn't kosher. Even neo-Nazis have the right to assemble and the right to use public facilities.

Now, a private club is a different matter, of course, but threatening someone with a firearm -- when that person has not harmed you or threatened you in any way (other than offending your sensibilities) is generally legally considered assault, I believe (even at a private club).

If some punk kid comes to your club range with a "Zyklon B" t-shirt on and a shaved head, you can't draw a gun on him. He may HATE Norwegians or Chilleans or whomever with all his heart, but that doesn't give you legal justification to threaten him with a weapon.

And, if he's at a public range, he has just as much right to be there as do you.

Now, he may not be ACCEPTED and WELCOMED into your group, and I don't think that would be seen as unreasonably "insular" by most people.

Still, the shooting world is EXPLODING. There are SO many more people out buying guns, joining gun clubs, competing, training, etc, these days that a lot of folks are going to have to get real comfortable with "riff raff" enjoying the facilities with them. And the sooner those "riff raff" become "friends" and shooting buddies, the better.

ArmedBear
March 19, 2010, 03:45 PM
If some punk kid comes to your club range with a "Zyklon B" t-shirt on and a shaved head, you can't draw a gun on him.

Legally, that's true.

However, the response "Threatening someone with a weapon can get you shot, I don't care how old you are or what you did in the 40's" was objectively silly. There's such a thing as the real world, too.

Be all that as it may, if "insularity" means "we don't allow those who make it a point to appear to be gang members, violent racists, or criminals at our range" then I'm all for it. Like I said, I usually go out of my way to welcome people.

But if we care about RKBA, we have both legal and PR concerns, too. Sometimes, that trumps the "I have rights!" mentality that Monty Python lampooned years ago already: "Come and see the violence inherent in the system! Help, help, I'm being oppressed!"

ny32182
March 19, 2010, 04:14 PM
However, the response "Threatening someone with a weapon can get you shot, I don't care how old you are or what you did in the 40's" was objectively silly. There's such a thing as the real world, too.

What is objectively silly is suggesting a group of folks is going to threaten someone with physical violence in a place they have every right to be. If that happens, nazi-boy has the right to shoot back, as he is now an involuntary party to a situation involving the threat of lethal violence. Regardless of his beliefs.

Be all that as it may, if "insularity" means "we don't allow those who make it a point to appear to be gang members, violent racists, or criminals at our range" then I'm all for it. Like I said, I usually go out of my way to welcome people.

Define how the range is "yours". If it is public, it is not yours. If it is private, and the guy doesn't have a membership, he doesn't have the right to be there... but if he does... he does. Should've screened him out during the application process.

Werewolf
March 19, 2010, 04:39 PM
What is objectively silly is suggesting a group of folks is going to threaten someone with physical violence in a place they have every right to be. I won't disagree with that and will even go so far as to say, "philosophically - you are 100% correct". But moral, legal, whatever quite often bumps up against reality and loses.

If that happens, nazi-boy has the right to shoot back, as he is now an involuntary party to a situation involving the threat of lethal violence. Regardless of his beliefs.Having the right and exercising it are two very different things. In the scenario described if "nazi-boy" had responded by shooting a few of those old farts because he feared for his life he quite possibly would have been legally justified in doing so.

That said: I sure as hell wouldn't want to be him after he did and when the cops showed up with him all tatooed and wearing a zyklon-b T-Shirt.

I sure as hell wouldn't want to be him at trial in front of 12 ordinary citizens trying to explain why he offed some WWII veterans and holocaust survivors at a gun range. Any half way competent DA could get the death penalty trying the case from his cell phone while eating lunch at the local diner.

Sometimes right and reality duke it out and right doesn't always win.

NG VI
March 19, 2010, 04:42 PM
You know, I have to say I sympathize completely with you on friends who like guns or shooting. Just two nights ago I was out with my roomate, one of my best friends, we met up with a couple of friends of his and one of them started saying something about going shooting the next day. I asked what kind of guns they were going to be bringing, he said a couple of muzzleloaders, some other guns I can't remember, and a little revolver.

In his words, it would only shoot straight for maybe ten feet. I know this is blatantly wrong from reading people's posts here, never fired a J or K frame anything before, and also from my expirements shooting my Taurus PT-22 at fairly long range.

So I told him that those small framed revolvers are actually pretty accurate, it just takes a little bit of practice and effort, and they'll shoot at least as well as any other gun.

His next comment made me very curious about his train of thought.

Because he said "yeah, but I don't plan on shooting anybody so it doesn't really matter"

As if the only reason to be a good shot is to shoot people. Huh. What do you see wrong with that exchange?

ny32182
March 19, 2010, 04:46 PM
Yeah.. well.. you guys go ahead and shoot a guy for wearing a t-shirt, and see how that reality works out for you. :rolleyes:

NG VI
March 19, 2010, 04:51 PM
What's "zyclon-b"?

Officers'Wife
March 19, 2010, 04:53 PM
Hi NG VI,

What's "zyclon-b"?

I'm glad you asked because I don't have a any idea either.

Sam1911
March 19, 2010, 05:00 PM
Zyklon B was/is a cyanide based chemical pesticide most known as the primary chemical used by the Nazis in their gas chambers.

Zyklon B was also the name of a short-lived Nowegian death metal band. The disturbing imagery associated with the name is typical of that type of music.

Werewolf
March 19, 2010, 05:12 PM
Yeah.. well.. you guys go ahead and shoot a guy for wearing a t-shirt, and see how that reality works out for you. :rolleyes:
Ummmm...

Where the heck did that come from? Nobody advocated shooting the kid. A poster simply related a story where the little punk was escorted off a range where WWII vets and holocaust were shooting because they took umbrage over his T-shirt.

ny32182
March 19, 2010, 05:17 PM
Ummmm...

Where the heck did that come from? Nobody advocated shooting the kid. A poster simply related a story where the little punk was escorted off a range where WWII vets and holocaust were shooting because they took umbrage over his T-shirt.

Right here....

He was summarily escorted off the Trap range by a bunch of ordinarily nice old guys, threatening him, with shotguns in their hands.

Now lets suppose for a minute the little punk decided he wasn't going to be "summarily escorted off" a place he presumably has the right to be. What happens next?

Werewolf
March 19, 2010, 05:32 PM
Right here....



Now lets suppose for a minute the little punk decided he wasn't going to be "summarily escorted off" a place he presumably has the right to be. What happens next?

See post #48...

Reality kicks in and the kid loses. Whether he survives the encounter or not - the end result will not be good for him.

And that's the point NY32182 - you're assertions about who was in the right and who was in the wrong are inarguable. Morally and legally the old guys were wrong. That said I don't imagine that would be a lot of comfort to the kid's parents were he to kill some old guys and holocaust survivors because he rightfully felt threatened and legally retaliated. He'd still be dead or in prison either way. Reality can be a real bitch some times.

NG VI
March 19, 2010, 05:36 PM
So it is entirely possible that the guy just really liked the band and had no idea it was the main ingredient in Nazi murder gas? I have kind of a hard time believing he was a neno-Nazi, based strictly off him having tattoos (it's 2010, everyone and their mother has tattoos) and wearing a shirt with the name of a metal band on it. The fact that the band chose to name themselves after a poison used during the Holocaust doesn't automatically mean that their lyrics had anything to do with Nazism, or the Holocaust, or anything really.

Not something I would ever name my band after, but then again I don't like metal much anymore. Reggae for the win, German reggae especially, and ironically, given the conversation.

I dunno. I can't help but think that adjudicating him as a neo-Nazi and not just an uninformed metalhead with a band T-shirt on isn't very accurate. I think maybe an initial approach by one of the old fellows to ask him if he had any idea what the word on his shirt meant would have been a much more rational approach.

That would have taken maybe four minutes to teach him a little 20th Century history, and I'm betting he wouldn't be wearing that shirt anymore. The way it played out he most likely left the range completely baffled by the inexplicably hostile (and felonious) behavior of a group of old men.

And I'm still baffled by the attitude of the friend of my friend.

ny32182
March 19, 2010, 05:37 PM
And that's the point NY32182 - you're assertions about who was in the right and who was in the wrong are inarguable. Morally and legally the old guys were wrong. That said I don't imagine that would be a lot of comfort to the kid's parents were he to kill some old guys and holocaust survivors because he rightfully felt threatened and legally retaliated. He'd still be dead or in prison either way. Reality can be a real bitch some times.

And like I said... let them shoot someone over a t-shirt, and see how that reality works out for them.

Sam1911
March 19, 2010, 05:44 PM
This has been an interesting diversion. Let's consider the story of t-shirt boy concluded -- NOW.

If there's life left in the original discussion, great.

hso
March 19, 2010, 06:44 PM
I've been in shops on both ends of the spectrum and everything in between.

I've spent time in one that welcomes those who are "serious shooters" and seems to barely tolerate the bulk of its customers who seem to never have handled a gun before but are happily spending money there. While they're never overtly rude their only interest is in the experienced gun owners.

Another had a couch and a couple of chairs and shooting magazines scattered on a coffee table in front of a big screen constantly showing shooting related videos. They also had honor pay coffee. The guys that worked there greeted everyone that came in the door and asked if the potential customer needed any help or just wanted to look around first.

I've been in shops that fit nicely between these two examples in welcoming new potential shooters.

Hatterasguy
March 19, 2010, 08:06 PM
Having just got into shooting I can't put my finger on it. On one hand I have meet some very friendly people, on the other I meet a lot of paranoid end of the world nuts to.

I'm going to go very general here for a moment, but its almost like people in the shooting sports don't trust you enough to be friendly until they are sure you are "one of them".


I suspect its because of how the media has represented them, and the anti gun legals winds blowing against them.

shockwave
March 19, 2010, 08:27 PM
Just speaking for myself, I've found gun shop people, fellow owners, range participants, IPSC and IDPA members, and club members to all be a very congenial and helpful group. In all the years I've been shooting and participating in this culture, I have had no bad experiences whatsoever.

Some rules of thumb I follow are: be polite, ask if you don't know, agree if you're asked for a favor (like taking down someone's targets or loaning your stapler), talk to the ROs, etc. Mainly, though, it's really a matter of noticing how people carry themselves, how they talk, how they dress. That goes for a lot of other things, too.

In fact, you could extend that a bit and just note that in general, getting along with any group of people requires a bit of observation and willingness to observe their standards of conduct. Some of the discussion in this thread, while veering off-topic, actually does address this explicitly. There's often a fine line between craven conformity and respect for the way other people do things. The wise person will grasp the difference.

danprkr
March 19, 2010, 08:39 PM
German reggae

WTH - I didn't even know there was such a thing. :confused: :confused: :confused:

Anyway, like any social activity you can expect some amount of standoffishness when initially trying to enter a group. Some groups are better than others. Even within larger groups. For instance I have found the Ballroom and C/W dancers much more cliquish than the swing dancers. Which is one of the things that attracted me to swing dance away from ballroom and/or country. Then you add in the political issues associated with our sport, and you get a bunch of guys who are going to be a bit hesitant to throw you a welcome party until they have some idea of who you are and where you stand. Just keep showing up, doing your thing safely and politely, and sooner than you think you'll be in.

fireside44
March 19, 2010, 08:51 PM
I will admit to being insular.

I look down the firing line and all there is is automatics. I look back down at my revolver, shake my head, and go back to shooting.

By the same token I've brought I dunno how many new guys shooting, all of whom went out and bought themselves firearms after. Seems I can't hardly go to the range without three or four kling ons tagging along for an hour or two of quiet shooting...lol One of these became a bigger gun nut than me. Of course they all wind up being auto shooters.

*shakes head

See, I am insular but not by choice.:)

*shakes head

NG VI
March 19, 2010, 08:58 PM
OT- Danprkr, yeah, Seeed and Gentleman are the two I am very familiar with, one of my favorite bands and favorite singer, respectively. Seeed did a cover of Tide Is High that's pretty sweet, and a song about living on a roof and never coming down, to get out of the city grind and all that bad graffitti.


I think the observations that people tend to want to be sure a newcomer isn't some troll or maybe (and even worse) an actual living, breathing media or anti-gun stereotype of a gun owner.

22-rimfire
March 20, 2010, 03:39 AM
I'd try to find a club within a hours drive of you and join. Get to know some of the folks and the other things will begin to fall into place. I have noticed other folks from NC having difficulty finding a range, so I guess in a large part it depends on where you're located as driving several hours to shoot is not a practical option in my opinion.

bigalexe
March 20, 2010, 11:58 AM
Second post in the thread nailed it as far as the Original Question is concerned.

Getting used as a scapegoat for all that's wrong and being the subject of witch-hunts for terrorists and drug addicts kinda of makes people a little wary of those they don't know.

I find the way to avoid the insularity of the gun community is to be brought in by a friend that can vouch for you. If you walk onto a range alone and no one knows you consider we don't even know if you are sure which end the bullet comes out, or if you aren't really there to shoot but instead working for Brady, Bloomberg & Friends conducting one of their "stings" where they commit crimes and then blame us.

Walking onto a range with a friend that knows who can at least say "This is bob, he is new, but he knows the 4 rules." Makes all the difference in the world.

I do a lot of work with "Community Oriented" organizations and such, I've found the nicest people I've ever met are the ones at the gun range. Heck after a few months I even got given a gun by someone I had never known because they heard I was looking for one and it was taking up room on their shelf collecting dust.

It all depends on you.

huntsman
March 20, 2010, 06:32 PM
I find the way to avoid the insularity of the gun community is to be brought in by a friend that can vouch for you. If you walk onto a range alone and no one knows you consider we don't even know if you are sure which end the bullet comes out,

That's fine with the private clubs, they can play their little power games and have the clicks but if your a paying customer demand they act professional.

danprkr
March 20, 2010, 09:47 PM
That's fine with the private clubs, they can play their little power games and have the clicks but if your a paying customer demand they act professional.

I didn't get the impression that he was talking about the employees, but more the other shooters. Now don't get me wrong we've all been in gun establishments from stores to ranges that are hugely cliquish, and that's wrong from a professionalism stand point. My advice on that is as always free market - take your money elsewhere. But, I don't think that was what he was asking.

Dan

oneounceload
March 21, 2010, 11:37 AM
And now to bring t back to the OP -

Where I have lived before, and currently live now, any new person that shows an interest in joining our squad when we shoot sporting, especially a new person who hasn't done it before, is always welcomed and given all the advice our collective minds have (which may or may not be a good thing :D).

Hunting here in FL I have found to be a challenge; I was used to wide open public lands, not hunt clubs; fair-chase deer hunting, not tree stands; walk-up bird hunting, not planted birds you have to kick up, so my time hunting hasn't been as often as I was used to.

You might find joining a local hunt club something to do as far as learning and having access to hunt.
If you shoot shotguns at clays, joining a local club is a great way to meet/make friends and get insight and help (they also might have some hunters to help with the former idea).

Good luck

SuperNaut
March 21, 2010, 12:01 PM
I'm not sure how to say this without coming across as insular and stand-offish myself. So I'm just going to say it and let the chips fall where they may.

I've never considered shooting to be a social endeavor, for me it is a solitary hobby. It has only been since I registered at THR that I have even put "social" and "shooting" together in the same sentence. I've met some great folks from THR and had a lot of fun with this new (for me) social aspect of shooting, but I much prefer shooting by myself. Even at the last THR get together in Provo, I went off by myself and had a great time.

So at the risk of sounding like a jerk; it is nice to know that a social network of ~like-minded individuals exists, but that aspect is just a recent, vaguely interesting, marginally useful, development for me.

Sorry?

TexasRifleman
March 21, 2010, 01:45 PM
I will admit to being insular.

I look down the firing line and all there is is automatics. I look back down at my revolver, shake my head, and go back to shooting.


At one time I was one of the guys with nothing but automatics until a very nice guy at the range walked up and asked me why that was all I shot. I had simply never had the chance to shoot a revolver before.

He was nice enough to let me try a few of his and a week later I bought my first one.

I'm glad he didn't judge me simply because I didn't know enough to know I was missing out.

Geno
March 21, 2010, 02:02 PM
One can't assume all ranges are insular. It seems to me that it is more of a local, cultural matter, and thus varies from range-to-range. I imagine that some ranges are, and they have the right to be, for whatever rationale they choose. I can enjoy shooting alone, in pairs, or with a whole group. A little friendly competition is always fun too.

For my part, I only care that folks are safe, responsible and respectful. I won't go off here about some of the dangerous things I have seen at the range, but it goes up to and including seeing a fella shoot literally half of his hand off about 4 feet to my left. That could have been my head, or someone else's head.

To that end, we should safeguard our lives by monitoring our conduct and others' conduct. Trust, with a gun, must be earned. Just because someone owns a gun, doesn't mean that they know how to use it. When you commence to using it in my presence, I have a right to be insular. I'll offer to teach someone, but if s/he gets all insular, they're out.

Geno

Walkalong
March 21, 2010, 02:58 PM
I look down the firing line and all there is is automatics.
You can tell the ones who only have autos when you let loose with a .44 Mag. If they turn around with the WTH look with their jaws open, all they ever shoot or see is autos. ;)

Insular......hmmmm

Kind of a loner some days, and real friendly other days. Just depends.

Most gun folks are real inclusive if you don't act like a fool who might shoot them between the eyes.

No tolerance for carelessness by most gun owners. Wouldn't call that insular.

Spencer_OKC
March 21, 2010, 03:54 PM
Personally, I find those involved in the shooting sports to be friendly and open, but I can also understand how someone entering our environment for the first time might be a little intimidated.

That said, I think if you walked into any specialty shop or event you would feel much the same way.

BullfrogKen
March 21, 2010, 06:11 PM
Is it a private range, and are the guys "escorting him off" administrators with the legal right to do so? If not, I think he does have the right to refuse.

It depends on the by-laws of the range. The by-laws are a product of the membership. If they don't want a certain group or contingency of people within the membership ranks, they can use whatever criteria they chose to admit members.

It's not uncommon for a private club to have standards of acceptable behavior defined, and to have the memberships empowered to escort those who violate it to leave. What usually happens is the member or guest engaging in some unwanted behavior is removed from the property, then the Board Directors and Officers become involved.

If it is private, and the guy doesn't have a membership, he doesn't have the right to be there... but if he does... he does. Should've screened him out during the application process.

Not exactly. And the screening process cannot catch everything. Just like an employer cannot be assured a new employee is who he says he is, or that he doesn't change some years after being hired. Memberships clubs are voluntary bonds of association, and they can chose to sever those bonds. The by-laws lamost always have a process spelled out about how that occurs, but most by-laws usually have something in it about how a member engaging in behavior that community doesn't want to tolerate is dealt with in the immediacy.



I've seen some jerks at our club. Some people are just jerks. But for every jerk, I have 20 members who are pleasant people and want to make a new shooter feel welcome. I have had many, many more positive experiences at my club than I have negative.

jhco50
March 22, 2010, 02:59 AM
I have noticed this exclusionary attitude amongst the different gunshops and ranges myself. Of couse if you flash enough money they will welcome you with open arms. :scrutiny:

jhco50
March 22, 2010, 03:06 AM
sorry, double post

bds
March 22, 2010, 03:42 AM
At least in central California, I have not seen this. All the local ranges I have been to (5 indoor/outdoor) past 15+ years have been very open with no exclusiveness. They were all open to anyone who paid the monthly/annual membership fees, very family oriented and friendly to new shooters.

When I lived in two northern California towns, they were very pro gun and I did not have problem at local ranges.

Werewolf
March 22, 2010, 02:44 PM
I've noticed insularity even within the gun community.

Every year at the range my gun club owns right before deer season the hunters show up.

They spend an hour or so zeroing their rifles and they're gone. They stick to themselves, are difficult to draw into any type of conversation and most absolutely will not accept any advice or suggestions regarding the zeroing techniques they're using.

They're all members of the club. Got to be to use the range. You never see them at the monthly meetings.

One wonders why they even bothered to join... :confused:

Toaster
March 22, 2010, 03:05 PM
Are other intensive sports any different before you draw broad conclusions?

I don't remember any cuddlies at the golf course (boring).

Good point. I seen "elitism" at the shooting range, but also at paintball fields, while boating and /or fishing , and even pinochle tournaments. Some people will always make it a point to look down their nose at others.
But my overall experiences as a gun owner and hobbyist have been good and I've made some great friends.
In terms of being paranoid where the government is concerned. I live in Illinois, where two handguns are considered a "major weapons cache" and two rounds of ammo is a "major stockpile." Go figure.

Officers'Wife
March 22, 2010, 06:02 PM
Part of my training is to look at a premise then turn it inside out and reexamine it. Just to throw in a random thought here... Could it be the nature of the sport itself? On the firing line or the tree stand there is no team, just a person 'hopefully' skilled in the use of a specific machine. There may be hunting partners or other team members but with the pin hits the primer it all comes down to you, your machine and your target.

Perhaps what the poster is noting is not insularity but a basic air of independence. Perhaps we as a culture have been so infused with the idea that people are interdependent with each other, the classical independent citizen is somehow seen as 'out of place' and 'stand offish.'

bds
March 23, 2010, 12:46 AM
At least the shooters I shoot matches with/new shooters I have run into and various range staff the past 15+ years, even here in central California, mostly hold to the notion of citizen soldiers coming together for the good of the people if/when situation arises. Many range staff fostered this notion as well. Many of our local ranges have law enforcement/military staff involvement, and perhaps this helps.

I have seen some "distance and solitude" from the bench rest/rifle shooters but heck, you need to concentrate when you are trying to make those small shot groups at 100/300/500 yards (these guys are out on the firing line 4-5 AM - geeze). What I have experienced is when they are off the firing line, they are approachable and willing to share their knowledge and experience and we have them shoot our pistols in the pistol range. Also, everyone is happier after lunch BBQ break.

The past 15 years at various ranges, the bulk of discussions among known and new shooters alike (pistol/rifle/shot gun shooters) have been the deterioration of gun rights and escalation of anti-gun laws. Maybe this has united all shooters regardless of back ground here (even the young "rambo" type shooters in 20's will join in on the discussions and they are all concerned like us "more mature" folks).

The various range owners and staff have absolutely tried to get as many people involved in the shooting sports and Second Amendment activism efforts the past decade since the assault weapons ban. What they found is that most people, once they shoot some rounds in any firearm, are hooked the first time. We have run many promotional drives and match invitations for the public to come and watch/participate. No insularity here that I have seen.

For some of us, shooting is not just a sport, but a dependent way of life to defend ourselves from daily crime/home invasion robberies that occur in our cities. Sheriff deputies I shoot with tell us 911 will get the officers to our house in time to put us in the body bags. They tell us we MUST be able to defend ourselves and the house until the police arrives. Maybe this urgency has put the insularity issue to the side for us.

tack
March 23, 2010, 01:16 AM
My experience is that shooters are eager to share their enthusiasm and show off their skills and toys. Examples include a company pistol club in Connecticut, but that was years ago. I've had great experiences in the last year with two gun stores, the local NRA chapter, and the local tactical pistol clubs here in southern California.

Be persistent. Give them time and attention.

Tack

SwordRapier
March 23, 2010, 04:42 PM
You can tell the ones who only have autos when you let loose with a .44 Mag. If they turn around with the *** look with their jaws open, all they ever shoot or see is autos. ;)

Insular......hmmmm

Kind of a loner some days, and real friendly other days. Just depends.

Most gun folks are real inclusive if you don't act like a fool who might shoot them between the eyes.

No tolerance for carelessness by most gun owners. Wouldn't call that insular.
I get those looks well I'm shooting my .327

Small gun, big bark.

benEzra
March 23, 2010, 06:13 PM
I have noticed other folks from NC having difficulty finding a range, so I guess in a large part it depends on where you're located as driving several hours to shoot is not a practical option in my opinion.
This is partly because, unlike many other states, NC seems to spend every bit of its Pittman-Robertson funds on hunting and wildlife related stuff, and not a dime on shooting ranges. In Florida, where I lived for a decade, a certain percentage of Pittman-Robertson funds are set aside for ranges, which makes sense since it is nonhunters that pay most of the taxes. In NC, shooters subsidize wildlife management and no-guns-allowed* game lands, possibly some hunter education materials, and not a whole lot else. As a result, ranges are less common.


*Except for .22LR pistols and revolvers with barrels shorter than (IIRC) 7 inches. The theory being, if I carry my 9mm CCW while taking my kids out stargazing on lands so designated, I might be overcome with temptation to poach a deer with it, but .22LR's emanate no such seductive vibes and are therefore allowed.

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