Am I entering ballistics right?


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AzBuckfever
March 19, 2010, 02:40 AM
I'm new to the whole MOA thing and trying to learn what I can....just a quick question of whether I'm entering the ballistics info in right for JBM...
Bullet: .308 Nosler Partition Spitzer 180 grn.
CoEfficient: .474
Muzzle Velocity: 2752
Left all the sight height and other info at their standard entries....
Temp: 70 degrees
Pressure: 29.94
Humidity: 20%
Altitude: 5,000 ft.

The location entries are for a area that I will be hunting this year. Entries were obtained from archived weather reports during the same time last year.

With this info, I get a total of 326.9" of drop at 1,000 yds.
Velocity @ 1,000 yds: 1,423.5fps
Energy @ 1,000 yds.: 809.8

If I could get some confirmation on these numbers, it would be appreciated.

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Hud
March 19, 2010, 12:02 PM
Well, I didn't run any numbers but I would suggest changing your press. & temp. numbers & run it again & I'll bet it will make a difference.(More velocity & energy with less drop)
You are using sea level press. At 5000 ft. it should be around 25", & the temp. will probably be a lot lower than 70*.

Z-Michigan
March 19, 2010, 12:37 PM
Your numbers look right to me. The temperature and altitude settings result in much better retained energy than at sea level.

You can use this calculator to compare if you want:
http://www.handloads.com/calc/index.html

Sight height will have a major effect on the drop you find compared to a 100 yard zero (or any zero). It is worthwhile to measure the exact sight height on your rifle if you want accurate results.

Hud, while you are correct about what typical pressure is at 5000ft, the program should adjust for the elevation. Air pressure is normally reported as a corrected-to-sea-level pressure, because it would get too confusing otherwise, and a major use of air pressure info is pilots looking to ensure that their pressure altimeters are reasonably accurate. Pilots correct the altimeter setting according to the sea level equivalent.

Hud
March 19, 2010, 12:58 PM
Z,
I just ran his numbers thuough the three programs that I use & the results came out pretty darn close to AzBuckfever's.
My programs don't have inputs for barometric press (calculated in with alt.)
but the JBM does, so that's why I threw that in.
I'm an old, ex-Airframe& Powerplant mechanic & that density/altitude thing still pops up from time to time.
Regards, Hud

AzBuckfever
March 20, 2010, 04:38 AM
So is the variance in the numbers different because the programs compute differently, or is there a number off somewhere? I entered the pressure to what it was on October 18th, 2009 in the nearest city to the area I hunt (which is like 3 miles away line of sight).

rcmodel
March 20, 2010, 04:35 PM
Mine is a silly question I know.

But what does drop, velocity, and energy at 1,000 yards have to do with hunting?

rc

AzBuckfever
March 20, 2010, 04:50 PM
Not sure if you're asking me, but really, absolutely nothing; which is why I posed the question in Rifle Country and not Hunting....:D
I guess just for kicks, it's fun to shoot out to 1,000 yards and know you can hit the target, hence the reason for the ballistic table listing out to 1,000 yards....but otherwise, I don't think I would ever take a shot that far, unless I knew 100% that it would be an ethical shot. That's not the purpose of the thread though, the question was to ask if I was entering the numbers right.
If you were intending to continue on some rant about 1,000 yard shot to be "inhumane" or unethical....well, my response would be, to each their own :) The perspective of a inhumane or unethical shot is one's personal opinion and cannot be judged unless you personally know the capability of the other person doing the shooting. I know some people who can't make an ethical shot at 100 yards :D

reloadergriz
March 20, 2010, 05:32 PM
I'm new to the whole MOA thing and trying to learn what I can....just a quick question of whether I'm entering the ballistics info in right for JBM...
Bullet: .308 Nosler Partition Spitzer 180 grn.
CoEfficient: .474
Muzzle Velocity: 2752
Left all the sight height and other info at their standard entries....
Temp: 70 degrees
Pressure: 29.94
Humidity: 20%
Altitude: 5,000 ft.

The location entries are for a area that I will be hunting this year. Entries were obtained from archived weather reports during the same time last year.

With this info, I get a total of 326.9" of drop at 1,000 yds.
Velocity @ 1,000 yds: 1,423.5fps
Energy @ 1,000 yds.: 809.8

If I could get some confirmation on these numbers, it would be appreciated.
Hi there AZ ... I just stumbled onto this posting and would like to ask you a few questions if i may ..Are you trying to calculate Target Long Range Competition ( ie sniper type ) or for hunting purposes ? .. They are 'somewhat relative' but not totally !
These sound much more like dialing in an m40 to me , although you do mention hunting in your area (3) miles away ? .. understanding the basics and engineered reason for MOA , scope set-up/ bullet weight/ ROT/ is important .. You have calculated this particular bullet to be dropping some 27+ ' @ 1000 yds , I see no compensation for where 'yaw' comes into play . there are so many variables to be considered here , i wish you could be more specific as to your overall intent to apply MOA to your initial question.
I believe i could be of better assistance to help you with accomplishing what you are trying to do/ answer ..Maybe you shoot mountain to mountain or very long range ? ..
Please bear in mind that a .308 180 grain bullet for hunting is at it's maximum weight for any effectiveness at especially longer distances ( I've dialed other's in via info gathered , but would really need more specifics ) .. I am a writer for Wildcam.ca & have several articles there , (1) of which deals directly with MOA & explaining it in laymens terms ..
Thanks ..

reloadergriz
March 20, 2010, 05:54 PM
Ok , you may disregard my posting/ question to you AZ . I Just read your reply above , as the site today has been super busy . I do understand you taking your position on inquiries / ethics etc; and you are absolutely correct ! .. If you were just doing a numbers game, as originally posted , then i went on a tangent trying to understand your
latent intent .. now i know ..( lol ) if you'd like specific input , i'd be more than glad to share.. I have no idea what make/ type rifle you're shooting/ handloads or factory / optics / distances & quarry hunted .. So have fun in your endeavors afield !! ....Ballistically yours - R'Griz

AzBuckfever
March 20, 2010, 07:02 PM
Ouch, don't know if that was sarcasm or ballistic intent to hit me from 1,000 yards :D
So, in effort to be a little more precise.....
Hunting rifle, at the time, Remington ADL 30-06 with 20" barrel. Scope, Nikon Monarch 5-20x44 mounted on let say burris Medium Signature Series rings and dual dovetail (I'm using the rings that used to be on it, but currently there is no scope or rings/mounts as I have the scope I'm going to put on, but haven't decided on rings)
Intent for 1,000 yards - as said, NONE :D Just a number, figure.....maybe I should have put 2,000 yards :D I understand the ballistic factors of the bullets travel (i.e. pressure, temp, elevation, yaw, roll, blah blah blah) but I thought that these online ballistic programs took care of all of that for you.
That being said, I am open to any help I can get as "accurate" long range shooting is new to me but I'm eager to learn what I can. Furthermore, the 30-06 WILL NOT be used for long range as for this, I will inevitably be purchasing either a .338 RUM or .338 LAPUA (haven't decided yet) for Elk hunting in central Az (where I have had several opportunities to take large bulls at around 1,000 yds., but never had the equipment or practice to do it, making the shot unethical). For deer, my 30-06 will be replaced by a .300 WSM and long shots will very rarely be needed as the terrain I hunt in for that is rugged and has several draws,washes, etc. (basically, passed 500 yds, something is going to get in the way....tree, hill, etc.) :D
The reason I asked about those numbers is mainy because #1, I have this rifle, chambered in this caliber, with these bullets reloaded to the specs listed (2752 fps.) and I wanted to see if I was on the right page of entering the figures for the Trajectory table.
In closing, the longest shot I have ever taken with this rifle is maybe 300 yds. The longest kill shot attained was just over 600 yds. with a Weatherby Vanguard 300WSM shooting factory Federal 165grn. Nosler Partitions.
The reason for gaining interest in long range shooting is purely education and entertainment with no immediate intent on attempting long range shooting without many rounds at the range first and the equipment to do it.
Another reason is to perhaps gain some understanding of these BDC dials that companies such as Leupold, Kenton, etc. offer. It almost seems more effective to spend the additional $100 to get one of those dials that I know go to 1000 yds. and try it....almost like a Point and Shoot thing.

reloadergriz
March 21, 2010, 01:50 AM
Ouch, don't know if that was sarcasm or ballistic intent to hit me from 1,000 yards :D
So, in effort to be a little more precise.....
Hunting rifle, at the time, Remington ADL 30-06 with 20" barrel. Scope, Nikon Monarch 5-20x44 mounted on let say burris Medium Signature Series rings and dual dovetail (I'm using the rings that used to be on it, but currently there is no scope or rings/mounts as I have the scope I'm going to put on, but haven't decided on rings)
Intent for 1,000 yards - as said, NONE :D Just a number, figure.....maybe I should have put 2,000 yards :D I understand the ballistic factors of the bullets travel (i.e. pressure, temp, elevation, yaw, roll, blah blah blah) but I thought that these online ballistic programs took care of all of that for you.
That being said, I am open to any help I can get as "accurate" long range shooting is new to me but I'm eager to learn what I can. Furthermore, the 30-06 WILL NOT be used for long range as for this, I will inevitably be purchasing either a .338 RUM or .338 LAPUA (haven't decided yet) for Elk hunting in central Az (where I have had several opportunities to take large bulls at around 1,000 yds., but never had the equipment or practice to do it, making the shot unethical). For deer, my 30-06 will be replaced by a .300 WSM and long shots will very rarely be needed as the terrain I hunt in for that is rugged and has several draws,washes, etc. (basically, passed 500 yds, something is going to get in the way....tree, hill, etc.) :D
The reason I asked about those numbers is mainy because #1, I have this rifle, chambered in this caliber, with these bullets reloaded to the specs listed (2752 fps.) and I wanted to see if I was on the right page of entering the figures for the Trajectory table.
In closing, the longest shot I have ever taken with this rifle is maybe 300 yds. The longest kill shot attained was just over 600 yds. with a Weatherby Vanguard 300WSM shooting factory Federal 165grn. Nosler Partitions.
The reason for gaining interest in long range shooting is purely education and entertainment with no immediate intent on attempting long range shooting without many rounds at the range first and the equipment to do it.
Another reason is to perhaps gain some understanding of these BDC dials that companies such as Leupold, Kenton, etc. offer. It almost seems more effective to spend the additional $100 to get one of those dials that I know go to 1000 yds. and try it....almost like a Point and Shoot thing.
OK , 'GOTCHA AZ. .. No, Never sarcastic as i'm usually trying to help not hinder .. I thank you for sharing your intent and you have a real good perception of what i was hinting at. I loaded .300 wsm's for a PA trooper & they were shot out of a police type specially set up rifle with excellent mounts & glass atop . He also is very interested in 1000 yd shots and bdc's . The .338's are not very forgiving & hard to group straight out & usually incur high dollar setups. I know because another reg' cop from the same state had trouble grouping (4") / factory rounds @ only 100 yds . So i asked about what type of rest he was shooting off of ? .. his reply : Oh a rolled up jacket on the hood of his truck !
that rifle had 'everything possible done to it by a gunsmith . Just by powder change / rest his groups dropped to 2" .. To each his own , but i do believe it was shooter error as it is most times (especially me lol ) .. (5) football fields is one helluva long shot for anyone to shoot, and practice is usually the key .. Then old Mother nature IMHO plays a Big part in 'woes' on Anything longer than that .. As seen on the 'Sniper' shows & using the very best Combat rifles , the 'spotter now utilizes a Special Calculator to use 'on the spot' exactly what you were asking about .. NOW 2000 yds + ? Hmmn Maybe that new .408 cartridge being developed .. Thanks for the Yak/ Info' & Great 'Shootin AZ ! p.s. My sister lives in Tuscson & my niece in Chandler AZ

AzBuckfever
March 21, 2010, 03:02 AM
I've been interested in finding one of those calculators that is used for the Cheytac .408...That is one helluva rifle there :D I likee. Yep, I'm fully aware of the optics, rifle capability, etc that is needed for a long range rifle...hence the reason they cost upwards of 3Gs....It still intrigues me to find whether these BDC dials are accurate just by computed ballistics rather than practical application. I couldn't see how they could be, but maybe they can come close. I'm a believer in that if you want accuracy and long range capability, practice with a Mildot or MOA scope and practice the shots. Then you'll know where your bullet is going to hit. As for your colleague who couldn't group a .338 under 4" at 100 yds....that's just bizarre. Honestly, I don't think I've ever had an out of the box rifle that I couldn't get to group under 2". Maybe I've just been lucky though. Most of them have grouped around an inch with my old .300 WSM being around .8 or so, I think. That was shooting off of sand bags though. Makes me wonder if I shouldn't pursue a .300 RUM instead of a .338...I like the caliber of .338 but perhaps the lengthy bullet of a 220 grn. .308 won't have nearly as much yaw factor and in turn, be able to produce a more accurized shot at even 600 or so....There's not much difference in 3 thousandths of an inch though....Decisions Decisions. That'll be a system that is saved up for and more than likely, topped off with my first ever Nightforce. Only time and $$$ will tell.

AzBuckfever
March 21, 2010, 03:43 AM
Although I am sending my own thread a little off topic, after doing a bit of research on bullets alone, I think I will end up opting for the .300 RUM....for elk.
Reason behind my decision....the bullet specs (CoEfficients and SD)....A 208 grn. A-Max has much higher numbers than and .338 bullet I could find. That was pretty interesting to me and no only that, on a previous thread I posted (not sure what it was) a gentleman submitted pictures of a target which I believe he shot with a .300 RUM (could have been a WSM; with the 208 grn. A-Max and he had some pretty nice groups....

Zak Smith
March 21, 2010, 04:44 AM
.30 cal 208gr AMAX BC 0.648
.33 cal 250gr Lapua BC 0.675
.33 cal 300gr SMK BC 0.760

AzBuckfever
March 21, 2010, 06:00 AM
Thanks Zak....do you have any info on what the hunting capability of those rounds are? I a little cautious of the 300 grn just because of a possible long range disadvantage, but the 250 grn looks appealing. I was thinking the Lapua was more for match shooting or target rather than hunting. Also, I believe I looked at this specific round (250 grn Lapua) and the Coefficient was close to the A-Max, as you listed, but the sectional density of the Lapua round was .311 which is less than the SE of the A-max at .313. This is why I'm leaning in the direction of the .308 with as said above, longer bullet may be more accurate with similar properties as a .338. Not saying that it is more accurate, just thinking it might be :D With that information, it could also be assumed that the 250 grain (being 42 grains heavier) may be just as long, if not longer than the 208 grn A-Max.

Once again, thank you for the information.

**Edit - updated info**
With the info obtained off Lapua's website, the Scenar bullet, which has the highest coefficient of .675, is designed more for competition shooting and not hunting. The bullet for hunting (Naturalis) has worse coefficients that the Nosler Partitions :D
Also, upon further research; it looks like the Hornady A-Max is a match round as well, which is something I did not know. Boy do I feel estupido :D guess you learn something new every day. So, now for hunting, the next highest in a .308 for bullets is the Nosler Accubond 200grn. or the Berger 210 grn. VLD; I believe.

So, this thread has gotten WAY off topic. I do appreciate all of your assistance though. I'll be doing a lot more research before biting the bullet (no pun intended) on a new rifle.

reloadergriz
March 21, 2010, 07:00 AM
This is where the problem arises with target shooters and hunters ..Remember Hornady does not recommend their A-Max bullet for anything But target shooting , thus the good groups due to it's ogive .. The jackets fragment and do not mushroom like their counterpart V-max or other hunting bullets . I just read on another site where a very experienced guy said even with perfect shot placement, there's no guarantee how effective it will perform . Being a member of Team Hornady, I do remember their statements on their own bullets ..Your decision in that light .. You can also go to any ballistics tables online & see how much drop a 220 grn .308 really has at over 300 yds .
you're more dead on with the belted magnums for sure regardless of diameter / weight ..
Really it's common sense dictating that you just can't get enough powder in a .308 case , compared to the huge bottlenecked magnum cases ..I know, as i've loaded them and studied the ballistics & also the practicality on what sized animals you're intending on shooting .. The BDC optics came out for guys to take longer shots , but some people forget about the energy and mushrooming necessary to drop larger game .. Just a thought for you .. Another small tid bit that's very interesting ! .. most people didn't know & some still don't that the belted magnums started out as a marketing ploy ? .. yep, it's true as the ammo companies constantly have to open up their markets for new innovations ie; the 17 hmr and all the other belted magnums that followed .. they all have their place , but some die out rather quickly .. When i had mentioned Bobby the cop from Pa. having trouble dialing in his .338 Win Mag, after doing much research online , it seems that the chambers/ headspacing / neck isn't quite a perfect fit and they start to wobble actually ( like bullet jump ) the instant the primer ignites them ..This was a problem with many of the guy's complaints about their guns inherent accuracy .. I have no idea if the manuf's have fixed the problem by now .. The consensus of opinion is to stick with the .300 wsm's / .300 rum's / .300 win mag's being the (3) most popular .. There is a great division between old school hunters and younger guys .. It's what you're comfortable with & what has done the job in the past for you ..This is where the split comes into play .. As for me ? .. I like them all & anything that draws interest & gernerates income for our shooting sport(s) , i'm ALL for it ! ! .. One thing i have learned if nothing else , I personally would never load up anything with 50+ grns of smokeless powder without checking each round loaded with a chamber case gauge .. I personally use L.E. Wilson Manuf' Co' .. If you don't happen to have a particular rifle on hand, your loading totally blind IMHO .. On any C&R military, i headspace check every single one
first just out of safety and habit .. ( sorry about another tangent ) lol ..

AzBuckfever
March 21, 2010, 08:18 AM
A very informative and good tangent, although I had to read some of it twice to gain understanding. So, I have a question. I am even new to reloading but, as far as hobbies go, I figure firearms and reloading are the most effective to pursue regarding cost, and having to watch my 3 girls a lot of the time. So, here's the question. You spoke of belted magnums? Are you talking about the bullets and the specific ones with the rings around them? The only ones I can think of that are that way, are Nosler Partitions and the Barnes TSX....That's where I get a little confused as well because none of the bullets with a high CoEfficient have rings/belts on them.

AzBuckfever
March 21, 2010, 08:19 AM
Please disregard the question on belted magnums....I googled it :D

reloadergriz
March 21, 2010, 01:47 PM
Ok AZ ! .. I see you took your own advice (lol ) Yes some shooters say that using non cannelured 'bullets' get released much faster/ less friction out of their brass housings .. I'm quite sure the A-Max doesn't have any , thus the accuracy ( all things being created equal ) .. The 'ringed' (cannelured ) bullets themselves were produced for the reloader to have a visual on their loading consistency/ depth as well as retention with the shock factor of the heavier loads .. They also work very well on handgun rounds for semi auto's .. Yes, i did break down and buy the pricey little tool ..You can also cannelure the brass as well ( handgun ) establishing a stop for the bullets .. hell, I'm educating myself & That Is Scary ( lmao ) Promise I won't bother you anymore ( lol ) .. Enjoy AZ . . (hope this helped )

AzBuckfever
March 21, 2010, 05:34 PM
Helped a lot and boy, a lot of people must have read that thread :) At least I can make a name for myself :D Thanks again for all those that helped out....no matter how far off topic the thread got :D

reloadergriz
March 21, 2010, 06:10 PM
I'm glad to hear that AZ ! .. Yea, i do have a tendency to 'roam' ( lol ) .. Well, all 'we' can do is put the info' out there .. it's up to the individual to digest what they want out of it , if anything .. GOOD LUCK AZ ! .. R' Griz

Zak Smith
March 22, 2010, 12:00 AM
I have heard from at least two elk hunters that the 300gr SMK works great. It's a lot of bullet. I would not have any problem using the 250gr Scenar either, given proper shot placement.

I a little cautious of the 300 grn just because of a possible long range disadvantage, but the 250 grn looks appealing.
This doesn't make sense ballistically. The 300gr has more relative advantage at further distances.

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