Racist Gunshops


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Bill Hook
November 22, 2003, 09:44 PM
I was out doing the C&R pawn and gun shop crawl today, when I came across a place that had lotsa C&Rs, albeit way overpriced, and got to talking (mostly his monologue) to one of the guys behind the counter (probably a partner). I asked about a 71/84 mauser they had and the guy starts off into connecting this bit of German history to Hitler (who was really a Jew, BTW) and why killing Jews and Jehovah's Witnesses, etc. was really a good idea. The other partner finally shut him up, but I can't help thinking folks like this offer a p-ss - poor image of gun ownership.

Thoughts or similar experiences?

Last time I heard something like this, it was a customer who started spouting off vile descriptions of black women, which made the guys behind the counter and me start to look at this person like they were a disgusting fool. They didn't say anything, because I'm sure they wanted the business and they finally managed to excuse themselves to go to the repair shop and help a walk-in.

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Chipperman
November 22, 2003, 09:50 PM
I've been in shops where the entire staff immediately turns to face any Minority coming in the shop. You can see in the eyes of the poor person that they know they are not welcome or trusted there. Very Sad.

Ed
November 22, 2003, 09:59 PM
Now, was the gunshop racist? Or the people there? I hate to see innocent shops get blamed.:D

I've never been in one, but would leave if i were to find myself in that kind of store.

JimJD
November 22, 2003, 10:04 PM
There is a store not too far from me that sells guns.
Not a dedicated gun store.
First time I walk in, the owner is trash talking Mexicans. Rather loudly I might add, relating all this to a customer at the shop.
Customer is shaking his head in agreement!
So, needless to say, I walked right out of that place.
Never going to spend a dime there, never going back.

Ed said:
Now, was the gunshop racist? Or the people there? I hate to see innocent shops get blamed.

Ummm.... Ed... I know what he means.
I've seen and encountered that type of behavior countless times. With my friends, and by myself.
Are they racist ? Maybe. Maybe not.
But at the very least, there's "something" under the surface there.

Ed
November 22, 2003, 10:13 PM
I'll clear this up before it gets taken wrong, the comment was a joke about blaming a building.....I know some people are jerks.:cool:

4v50 Gary
November 22, 2003, 10:15 PM
If they don't want business, then let them drive potential customers away. While it's their loss, it certainly makes for a poor image of gundealers or in this case, pawn shops.

rayjay
November 22, 2003, 10:21 PM
There is a gun shop here that opened up about 4 months ago. I figured I'd check it out about a week after it opened. Clean looking building from the outside. I walk in with my wife and 3 yr old son in tow and notice a very nice lay-out with lots of display cases. We browse around and I take some 9mm ammo to the counter to check out. While I'm chatting with the guy who's adding up my purchase another guy walks up to my son and hands him alittle Nazi flag on a stick. My wife taps me on the shoulder and my mouth drops open. I'm in shock! I tell the guy to please take the flag back and proceed to tell him if he trys that again he's gonna need a doctor to have that flag removed. He starts spouting some racial stuff and how he's protected by the 1st Admenment. My wife and I left, quick. Not before telling them that we would not be back ever!

JimJD
November 22, 2003, 10:25 PM
I know what you meant Ed, Sorry if it seemed like I was suggesting otherwise. I did'nt mean anything like that. :)


This thread is just reminding me of so many things I've seen, been subjected to, etc. Some things that have happened when my friends and I walked into a store were just unbelievable!
Not to mention, I've worked a lot of retail when I was younger.
I can't believe some of the stuff people I worked with said and did.
I'm talking about lawsuit level type stuff!
Some of those customers ended up filing lawsuits...They won.

Chipperman
November 22, 2003, 10:27 PM
:what: Did the guy work there, or was just a customer?

If that had happened to my family, I never would have seen it. My wife would have shoved it up his nose before I even turned around.

HABU
November 22, 2003, 10:33 PM
Customer is shaking his head in agreement! For the record, if he was shaking his head, he was disagreeing.:neener:

rayjay
November 22, 2003, 10:34 PM
He worked there. The only reason my wife didn't clobber him was she was holding our son. I did take the flag away from my son and throw it on the ground and my wife stepped on it when way left.

JimJD
November 22, 2003, 10:39 PM
D'OH!
*JimJD holds sides of head like Homer Simpson*

I meant nodding his head in agreement! :D

Man... I have to stop watching TV and typing at the same time!

Hee-Hee!

HABU
November 22, 2003, 10:47 PM
I have the hellivission on too, you may bust me before too long.:evil:

Mark Tyson
November 22, 2003, 10:50 PM
Never racists fortunately, but I've run into more than a few guys with some bizarre conspiracy theories at gun stores.

JimJD
November 22, 2003, 11:02 PM
Mark Tyson wrote:

Never racists fortunately, but I've run into more than a few guys with some bizarre conspiracy theories at gun stores.

Those guys are really scary!
I ran into one at a gun show not too long ago.
later on, I saw and heard him talking to himself.
Seemed like he was having an arguement with some unseen "Lone Gunman"...
I'm thinking, "Who let this guy in!?!?"
All we needed that day was to have Mike Moore stroll in with a camera crew...:uhoh:

larry_minn
November 22, 2003, 11:18 PM
What is fun is if they are talking against Mexican is walk up and ask. "Buno. Donde Esta La Boom Boom?" (I speak better then I type) :) I have fooled folks in Spanish/German/French/Norwegin/Japanize. I only know a few phrases but folks buy it. :) :)

Mike Irwin
November 22, 2003, 11:23 PM
Never had anyone overtly racist in either of the gunshops that I worked at.

I did, over the years, kick a couple of "customers" out...

One guy, a big, fat, greasy slob with a ponytail halfway down his back, dressed all in black with those big, thick, black-rimmed glasses that are all the rage with some of the people who favor all black had a T-shirt on it with the inscription "Feeling suicidal?" next to a picture of a noose. Under that was "Take someone with you!" and a picture of a gun.

The other guy walked in and I had my back to the floor when I hear one of the other customers say something to the effect of "Oh man, knock it off..."

When I turned back, this guy had dropped his trousers and underwear and was just standing there.

I yelled at him to get his pants back up and get out before I rammed his "ahem" into his ear...

He finally tucked back in when I picked up the phone to call the police. They found him staggering up the street. Turns out he was a local drunk who had a history of exposing himself.

Beetle Bailey
November 22, 2003, 11:27 PM
I guess it's a little unfair because I haven't actually been in there, but two of my buddies have had bad experiences with racists at a local gunshop so I just don't bother going in. I mean, I want to support the local gunshops and not just buy everything online, but if they are racists, no way. Lucky for me, there are three local ones I like and that's plenty more than I need or could ever presume to support.

USGuns
November 22, 2003, 11:30 PM
One ignorant idiot does not a racist gunshop make...
... that word (racism) is WAY overused and abused.

chaim
November 22, 2003, 11:47 PM
Thoughts or similar experiences? Yup, there was a gunshop near a school where I had a long term substitute teaching assignment. I walk in, a ton of really bad looks and they seem quite busy with other stuff and have little time to help me. I figure it to something other than my kippah (yarmulka) and give them another chance a few days later. I come back again to look (they do have some really nice stuff). I again get looks, no one wants to help me. They help customers who come in after me. Finally someone "helps" me. He is very inpatient. Practically throws the rifle at me. Grabs it back rudely when I decide not to buy it right away. Abruptly asks if I want anything else. Is very upset to hear me want to look at a pistol. Puts it away. Walks away without letting me check anything else out. I stick around a few minutes, long enough to see the same guy help another customer with the nicest, most polite, demeanor I've ever seen in a gunshop. While all this is happening I notice customers and employees looking at me and talking in undertones. This is in a part of town that is known to be fairly racist and where the Klan has some support (I had several antisemitic incidents with some of my students while at this school).

Jammer Six
November 22, 2003, 11:58 PM
It pleases me to see this thread here.

Although you can't tell by looking at me, I'm a breed, I'm half white and half red.

As a result, all my life, both races (as well as other assorted races, those with olive skin) have assumed that I'm one of them, and felt free to speak freely about "other" races in my presence, usually assuming that my silence indicated my allignment with the position they were stating. This exposure set me in my contempt for racists long ago.

Roughly fifteen (maybe twenty, I loose track) years ago, I stopped being silent.

At the time, I was a member of a construction union, and there is no harder core bastion of racism that I'm aware of outside of prison than a union construction jobshack, and to make a long story short, I ended up making myself virtually unemployable in my home city. Since I'm too stubborn to move, now I run my own construction company.

Sometimes, Fate is kind, and I ended up signing an agreement with the very same union I was once a member of, and some of the expressions that happen when a new hand reports for work on dispatch morning make me a happy man.

In my opinion, the most dangerous type of racist is a racist who honestly believes that he isn't. Someone who honestly believes that he doesn't treat "one of them" any differently than he would his friends, without realizing that he drew two lines based on race in that single sentence, not to mention that one of the lines separates other races from ever being counted as his friends, and without realizing that as long as it bears mentioning, it's an issue. If there was no issue, there would be nothing to discuss.

The boys in the white sheets and the clowns with the swastikas aren't dangerous. We know who they are, they go out of their way to tell us who they are. Without even the discipline to remain concealed, they are little better than punchlines. They think they are a threat with their cultures of violence, when I'm probably better armed and almost certainly a better shot, and violence pales beside things like glass ceilings and grinding, hopeless poverty. I would submit that when poverty becomes a way of life, as on the Pine Ridge res, and the children of your children's children will live and die in the same hopeless way of life, damage far beyond any firefight has been done.

One of the more pleasant experiences in recent memory was the discovery that the pistol league I had joined was one of the most tolerant places I've discovered in a very long time. Maybe it's that "polite society" phenomenon, I don't know, but it's responsible for my willingness to make this post, and discuss this issue with people I've never seen.

What I've seen is that the league I belong to accepts minorities and women without comment, which is one of the final steps in true equality.

The WNBA isn't equality. Equality would be female players in the NBA, at the same rates of pay, based on the same criteria, points scored, without becoming a cause for comment.

When I was an apprentice, some of the first women were beginning to join our union, and I apprenticed with some of them. Over the years, we slugged it out in job shack after job shack, and all but a few of the super-humanly strong ladies left.

Now some of those women are foremen, and jobsite superintendents, and while there are still some dinosaurs who object, they are becoming fewer and fewer, and I believe that it's going to take one more generation.

That is, the generation that is starting it's apprenticship now, who will be dispatched for the first time Monday morning, and walk into their first jobshack latter that morning to find a woman in charge will be the first generation to stand a chance.

Because as far as they will be concerned, that will be the way it's always been, and it won't be worthy of comment.

If you can remember a time when there was a race that was a second class citizen, who had to put out more to get to the same place, then you and I are probably both lost. We've been poisoned, and neither you nor I will ever be able to set the memory of that time completely aside. We will forever pine for it, or we will forever over-compensate for it, or we will see it where it doesn't exist, and we will never be able to balance our humanity on that razor edge perfectly enough to erase it. All we can do is fight it, and hope to produce that first morning in the jobshack, so that one day, there will be a generation who will only remember if not equality, then peace. Then acceptance. Then, perhaps, equality.

It's not just gunshops. It's everywhere, from WalMart to the Bon Marche, from restaraunts to auto body shops to dentists. Anywhere there are lazy people, you can find it. When you make a rule about a class of people, you are attempting to relieve yourself of the responsibility of analyzing people on case by case basis.

As it happens, it was a Washington State Patrolman who taught this to me, and he was teaching me about my brand new Springfield Milspec at the time. We were going over the rudimentry basics about when you draw and when you shoot, and when you don't. We had worked out most of it, and I made the statement "if you point a weapon at me, at my wife, or, my personal threshold, if you hit my wife, I kill you."

He said "Really? So, if an 84 pound, 92 year old woman who stands 4 foot 10 inches tall, has lost her glasses and has one arm hits your wife, you'll draw and kill her?"

Well, of course not. You can't make a rule, because any rule you make will have a hole in it. The analysis has to happen on a case by case basis, on the spot, under fire. As we talked, I realized that that's the basis of racism, and that's what's wrong with it. You can't avoid the mess, the effort, the inconvenience, and the mistakes involved in making decisions about people on a case by case basis, one at a time, on the spot, under fire.

As I said, it pleases me to see this thread, more than I can say.

In my experience, racists don't discuss racism, other than to either deny it exists or declare theirs proudly.

chaim
November 23, 2003, 12:10 AM
Jammer Six, good post.

Gordon
November 23, 2003, 12:59 AM
I hate : Nazi's ,Kluxers and Commies in that order. Aryan's, separatists, and socialists are just the slow version. I have zero tolerance for these people and do everything in my power to eliminate them from using my oxygen up. I guess that means I'm a hate monger but screw them no matter what color or religion they follow!:evil:

larry_minn
November 23, 2003, 01:03 AM
Jammer Six
Made me glad to read your post. Glad that things are (slowly) improving.

Bill Hook
November 23, 2003, 01:34 AM
One ignorant idiot does not a racist gunshop make...

Unless he's an owner. :rolleyes:



Customer is shaking his head in agreement!

I shook my head a few times before heading out the door.


Yup,....

You should make a point to go back there, this time with a baseball cap on over the yarmulke and ask about some product, whip out the plastic and make like they have a sale. Off comes the baseball cap and see if their attitude changes. About face to the door after explaining to them why you won't buy anything from them and threaten to get ADL, etc. to protest outside.

It could've been that the owner could only find racist d-ckheads to work the joint and they might have some better folks there this time around. If they apologize, then it may be worth reconsidering. Truth be told, my father always had the idea, that despite what your prejudices may be, green is the only color that matters when you're dealing with customers. It is only the truly stupid who make an effort to expose their bigotry and if you're truly trying to avoid bigots, you'll probably have to stop spending your money anywhere. This isn't to say you should give gun shop nazis your money, though.

BamBam-31
November 23, 2003, 01:46 AM
Jammer Six, more power to you, bro. ;)

Yeah, I'm the buddy Beetle's talking about. There's a local shop around here that's pretty racist. If you walk in and you're not white, they hush up and eye you suspiciously. When I asked to see a firearm, they asked, "What do you need it for?" When white customers walk in, they visibly ease up and become friendly, chit chat, etc. They don't mind making it very apparent that if you're not white, you're not welcome.

No thanks. I got more than a few of my buddies into guns (yay me!). I'm bringing them and my business elsewhere.

Balog
November 23, 2003, 01:46 AM
Jammer: excellent post. As a man married to a 1/2 Mexican woman who's been shot at by skinheads, I can sympathize. However, I can't say I agree with one of your points. The WNBA isn't equality. Equality would be female players in the NBA, at the same rates of pay, based on the same criteria, points scored, without becoming a cause for comment.

Comparing discrimination based on race and separation of men and women in sports is an inaccurate comparison. The reason men and women have separate leagues for physical sports is because women simply cannot compete at the same levels. Even in golf only the very best women can compete with the middle of the pack men. I'm sorry to counter all the PC rhetoric, but it's simply not possible. Let's say that we have a truly "gender-blind" basketball (or soccer or golf or any other sport depending on physical strength and stamina) league. If the players were let in based solely on physical standards, very few women would make it. And given the expense in constructing separate facilities for a small number of people, they would most likely be playing as a sort of novelty. Of course, I suppose the women could shower with the men, but I doubt either side would be comfortable with that.

Basically what I'm objecting to is saying that treating a minority differently than a white person is the same as treating a man differently than a woman. It's simply not true. There is a real, physical difference between the sexes which simply doesn't exist between the races. Sorry, just a pet peeve of mine.

Bill Hook
November 23, 2003, 01:52 AM
When I asked to see a firearm, they asked, "What do you need it for?"

"To kill Whitey." :D

Pendragon
November 23, 2003, 02:30 AM
Living in San Antonio has brought the whole racial thing to my mind more than I am used to.

As a non-hispanic white man, I am in the minority. (60% hispanic here).

I took my wife to 3 flea markets today looking for antiques and whatnot. I would say all 3 were at least 95-98% hispanic.

I was not scared or uncomfortable - but I was aware of it much more so than usual. It is good to give these kinds of subjects their due from time to time.

So here I posit:

The whole idea of America is 100% incompatible with the ideas of racists.

They believe that being a member of a certain lineage imbues an individual with a certain worth or worthlessness. The persons actions, morality, choices, talents and accomplishments have nothing to do with how the person is percieved.

America is about the power and inestimable worth of the individual. No matter your color or race or background, what makes you great are the choices you make and the actions you take.

Funny - most racists I see are not what you would call "successful". I wonder if they are just lame people who know they will never amount to anything to they take up this "cause" because it gives them a sense of worth that they are incapable of earning for themselves.

I have a relative (not by blood) who always talks about "them" and "those people" and whatnot. She did not want us to move to Texas and tried to tell is about how many black people there are in the south and (as an aside) "they can be really VIOLENT!"

Goodness.

:banghead:

Jammer Six
November 23, 2003, 02:30 AM
There is a real, physical difference between the sexes which simply doesn't exist between the races.

So, a man who is 4'-6" would be a better center in the NBA than a woman of equal ability who is 7'-2"?

BamBam-31
November 23, 2003, 02:49 AM
"To kill Whitey."

LMFAO!! :D

Don't tempt me, Bill, I might actually use that one next time! :D ;)

Moparmike
November 23, 2003, 03:07 AM
While I have not experienced or seen any racism in my local gun shop, I have seen some predjudice based on age. I assume this is because of the fact that less young people are ''big buyers'' these days, and they are deathly afraid of some random sting by the Bastards Always Terrorizing Firearm Enthusiasts (BATFE).

I however have recieved a crapload of flak about my political leanings (rookie mistake) about being a libertarian. Anyone who knows anything about Ozark Armory II in Springdale, AR knows to avoid the crazy red-headed guy.

spacemanspiff
November 23, 2003, 03:27 AM
as a self proclaimed bigot, i gotta say that i dont really care what a person Thinks about whatever. they dont like me cause my skin is browner than theirs, or not as brown as theirs, so what?

there are different types of 'racism'. on one hand, there is those who have formulated opinions based upon their personal experiences.
on the other hand, there is those who were taught to hate by friends/family, and often have never met the object of their hatred.

i would call myself a racist of the former description. HOWEVER, i try my hardest to not let my opinions be made known to those who i dislike. i would never assault (verbally or physically) someone for no reason.

i think its perfectly okay for a person to have their own opinions, but the minute they take it a step further and have actions fueled by their hatred, its a different story.

for example, theres a white supremicist group up here, based out of the mat-su valley. they leave flyers on car windshields from time to time, advocating their efforts at maintaining 'racial purity' and whatnot. an independant paper interviewed their leader, and he was going on and on about how 'the natives are scum and should go back to where they came from'.
now, i'm no rocket scientist, nor a brain surgeon, or even a high school graduate. but when you come to a state thats sole indigenous population is us savages, how the hell can you say 'go back where you came from!'??

but the last couple years, there have been more racially motivated assaults and vandalisms that make a savage like myself nervous. most recently has been paintball attacks on natives. one group of kids actually videotaped themselves doing it.
the native heritage center was spray painted with the slogan: "Have some pride, Killl a tribe".

yet a lot of alaska natives dont see the need to worry about their safety. of those that live in anchorage, very few natives carry concealed.

Detritus
November 23, 2003, 09:32 AM
Wasn't a guy behind the counter, but a customer. but the incident was both one of the most scary "run ins with racist schmucks" i've ever had AND the most surprising example of store personel dealing with said person...

Small gunshop in north MS late march of 2000 (just before i moved to texas) i'm int eh store browsing and this guy looking to be about my own age walks in, whips out his newly minted post-21st-b'day Driver's License, says he wants a pistol....

then proceeds to act out a paraphrase of the infamous "I need a gun to shoot some 'cans with" joke:barf:

just as the litte SOB finishes delivering his line (i'm standing there in shock, with my back to the guy) i hear a resounding "SMAAACK", turn and realize that the guy waiting on this turd (the shop owner it turns out) has just slapped the living daylights out of the kid, and is now telling the kid in a low steady voice, "Now listen up, I spent 25 years in the Army, i fought in Korea and Vietnam, fought beside men of every race, creed, or walk of life upon this planet, watched them fight and DIE for the man beside of them. and every single one of them was a better man than you'll EVER be!! NOW, Get out of my store, before i actually get MAD!! ". (this may not be exact for the wording but it's close and it conveys the meaning)

Now, i do not advocate the use of physical violence that was resorted to, and looking back on it i beleaive that simply telling the kid to take his hatefulness elsewhere would have been more appropriate, but at the time it was a bit gratifying to see the kid get stomped on for his ignorant bigotry.


i've run into racism in more places than i can count, including on rare occasion places where I as a caucasian was the target of the hatred/discrimination. my response, as i belive it is with most of you, is to simply vote with my feet and my money.

Sadly, I was once the target of unwarranted accusations on the job... but that's not something that needs to be aired here.

BryanP
November 23, 2003, 10:21 AM
SpacemanSpiff says

for example, theres a white supremicist group up here, based out of the mat-su valley. they leave flyers on car windshields from time to time, advocating their efforts at maintaining 'racial purity' and whatnot. an independant paper interviewed their leader, and he was going on and on about how 'the natives are scum and should go back to where they came from'.

Oh. Well. I guess they buy into the Bering Strait migration theory. "Send'em back to China where they came from." Morons.

When I used to live in San Antonio I heard one schmuck make the "Go back to Mexico where they came from" comment and I couldn't resist pointing out that there was a pretty good chance that the family of the guy he was talking about was living in the area when it WAS Mexico.

I've run in to the occasional gunshop racist. Sometimes I've just left, sometimes I've made a point of telling them that I wouldn't be buying anything there and why. Money talks. Especially when it walks.

Ed Straker
November 23, 2003, 12:26 PM
Well, I have an opposite story. I used to frequent a gun shop owned by a former Marine who fought on Guadalcanal.
He's passed away now, and the shop has closed. But, he used to talk about the Japanese he fought in disparaging terms.
I dated a girl from Japan for a while, and one day brought her with me when I dropped by the shop. Didn't even cross my mind, the Japanese thing, it was just me an a girl going to see my friend. He smiled and offered her a piece of bubble gum, like he does with every female visitor.
So it's good that he realised he difference between the 'Japs' he fought, and this cute girl I had with me. Good guy. Semper Fi, John.

Neal Bloom
November 23, 2003, 12:46 PM
"I need a gun to shoot some 'cans with"

I have always wondered if that included Ameri-cans?

Waitone
November 23, 2003, 01:15 PM
Never been a gunshop with racists. Been around some class A idiots for the way they handle guns.

The absolute worst racists I ever had to deal with was an Irish-Catholic from Chicago. The guy made well over $100K a year and dressed in $500 suits. Highly professional dealing with fellow honkeys but came unglued around non-honkeys. The man sickened me.

Mike Irwin
November 23, 2003, 01:42 PM
There ARE physical differences that are tracable to where an individuals' ancestors took root.

Skin color is the big one.

Northern Europeans... Generally fair skinned and fair haired. No need for excess melanin in the skin, which protects you from the effects of the sun.

Those from Equitorial and Southern Africa, as well as other tropical regions. Generally much darker skinned as the melanin is the body's natural defense against the sun.

People whose rootstock is in colder climates tend to be shorter but with broader bodies, which promotes conservation of body heat.

Those from hotter regions generally tend to be thinner and taller.

There are also differences in the bones that an anthropologist can generally use, with a pretty good rate of surity, to establish what race a person belongs to.

SoCalGeek
November 23, 2003, 01:44 PM
He starts spouting some racial stuff and how he's protected by the 1st Admenment. My wife and I left, quick. Not before telling them that we would not be back ever!

This is what most people fail to understand. They have the first amendment right to say whatever in the hell they want to say. They can have <racist/homophobic/bigoted/_____> beliefs if they want to. Everybody else has the right to not support them if they so choose. However, i think it also goes a little too far. A lot of times when i meet/hear about/am around a racist or somebody with racially biased opinions, people talk about kicking his or her ???. No, no, no, no, NO. I disagree with their opinions, but i don't hold it against them as a person- often it's just somebody was brought up that way. (You'd be surprised how many will admit "It's how i was brought up")

Edit: My bad. Not "whatever in the hell they want". Whatever in the hell they want, with the exception of the "My right to swing my fist ends where your nose begins" rule. That is, they have no right to threaten people or say things that would start a panic or a riot.

Mike Irwin
November 23, 2003, 01:54 PM
"This is what most people fail to understand. They have the first amendment right to say whatever in the hell they want to say."

Well, actually, no they don't, but that's not entirely germane to this conversation right now.

What is germane, however, is that while people generally have the right to spout whatever festering brand of horsehockey they want, they do NOT have the right to expect me to listen to it, or to support it by association...

semf
November 23, 2003, 01:55 PM
JimJD that gun store you were talking about woulbn't have been in Kissime would it. I went t a shop in Kissime that was going out of business and selling everything "cheap" I had a few things I was going to buy and was trying to deide on a little j-frame, When the owner,a very minor local celebrity started holdin court and running down Puerto Ricans ( It should be added that he was going out of business because of some illicit dealings with sending guns to PR) I simply put every thing on the counter next to the register and walked out. I have always regretted not saying anything.

I'm a 6' white boy born in Japan, my maternal grandparents are German Catholic, my paternal grandfather was an exalted cyclops in the Klan, My step grandfather (the one I call grandfather) is Japanese/Philipino, my ex-wife is Puerto Rican and Black (or as she calls herself Af-Rican), which makes my son mixed breed, my current wife is Vietnamese, when I was in high school in Alabama I was sent to a black school on the bussing program for a year. I have dealt with racism in one form or another my whole life. Now that I'm old I don't have to put up with it amongst friends we usually handle it by making jokes about it (my handle on another forum is DirtyJap, a nickname given to me by my Jap. grandfather) with business owners I'll handle it with my wallet

JimJD
November 23, 2003, 02:37 PM
Jammer Six, That was a great post!
I stand and applaud you!

I too am of mixed background, Chinese-Irish, and have had people(of all colors) time and time again pull the same exact stuff in my presence. :(
They realized pretty quickly I don't stand for that kind of behavoir and mindset.

SEMF, it was'nt where you mentioned. It is close to Lakeland.

semf
November 23, 2003, 05:06 PM
I think I know that one to. Does it start with P

Bainx
November 23, 2003, 05:11 PM
"Can't we all just get along?!"....group hug :D

Frank5
November 23, 2003, 06:05 PM
Gun shop racists don't bother me. If I get stuff at a good price,I don't care if the owner is an exalted cyclops or whatever they are called OR if he's a skinhead or nazi. If I get a good deal I take it.

That sort of stuff does not bother me one way or another. I've even heard slurs like honkey,cracker & peckerwood come from the mouths of blacks & it didn't faze me. (I'm a white male) I've got more important things in my life to worry about.

Most people who show off their racist leaning like the reaction they get. When you walk out or display a shocked look on your face,you give them what they crave. The best thing to do is just ignore them. This way you deny them the attention they want.

I'll have to agree that many hardcore racists are losers but many sussessfull people just hide thier beliefs & are almost as racist. So who is worse....the guy who is outward or the guy who hides it?? It does not faze me either way.

Actually.......I get a kick out of many white liberals/multicuturalists. They love diversity but they live in a lilly white area. Thier kids go to a mostly white if not all white private school,as opposed to a more diverse public school. Many are members of all white clubs/organizations. A lot of these people are just full of $#!t.................plain & simple.

Me......All of my friends are white. I live in a white area. I don't observe black history month nor do I celebrate diversity. I get along with my non white co workers & don't make a big deal of it.

PS.....The goofball that gave a nazi flag to a 3 yr old was way out of line. That would have even p!$$ed me off. If one follows that idiology so be it (no I don't) but to involve other people's kids is not right. I would said something to that bonehead.

p35
November 23, 2003, 06:49 PM
My kids are half white and half Japanese. When the first one was a baby, some kid working at the local Home Depot started asking if he was "really sleepy or what's with his eyes?" I just laughed it off- I'm sure he didn't mean anything racial by it. The only time I've been uncomfortable was at a rural beach on the 4th of July when some yahoos started driving up and down with huge (like 8' by 12') Confederate battle flags flying from their pickups. When you're with a mixed race family, esp. in an area with a reputation for racist idiots, you start thinking about how handy the 9mm is when you see stuff like that...

Your average racist, in my experience, has about one brain cell over the minimum needed to walk upright. My favorite example happened in Portland, OR around 10-12 years ago. Lots of Skinhead problems at the time. One Saturday night a few of them decided to go downtown and bash gays. They set up outside a gay bar and, when they saw 2-3 guys coming out, started hassling them. One of the gay guys stepped right back inside and yelled "HELP! GAY BASHERS OUTSIDE!" About 100 highly POd gay guys pour out of the front doors. The cops arrived in time to haul the Skinheads away, but not in time to save them from a thorough a** whupping. Made them laughing stocks for quite a while...

Byron Quick
November 23, 2003, 08:35 PM
There are individuals of various races whom I do not like. Since my reasons for not liking them have to do with traits not related to their race...my dislike is not racist.

One of these people once accused me of racism. My reply was to this effect: No, sir. I would not like you whatever your race.

Good points have been made here. Some I find agreeable. Some I do not.

I'm white. Whoopty do...yawn. You're some other color. Whoopty do...yawn. I'm much more interested in what kinds of guns you shoot. Or if your word is good. Or even if you tell amusing stories and grill a heavenly steak.

I can remember when my town courthouse had "colored only" restrooms and water fountains...and the same signs for "white only." Blacks in the back of the bus and all that other Jim Crow malarkey.

I don't long for those days, at all, in any way.

Sisco
November 23, 2003, 08:38 PM
Know a place like those you describe, I only go there as a last resort. Unfortunately they have the biggest selection of reloading supplies in the area.

hksw
November 23, 2003, 08:42 PM
An excellent post Jammer,

However, I do have to agree with Balog on the sports analogy.

So, a man who is 4'-6" would be a better center in the NBA than a woman of equal ability who is 7'-2"?

There aren't too many male 4'-6" centers in the NBA. The best 7'-2" WNBA center, is not (IMO) any competition for a top notch 7'-2" NBA center. I think Michelle Wie might have a good go at the PGA in the future. From what I hear, she can really launch them out there.

Not to downgrade women. Just an (IMO unbiased) opinion on physical abilities between top notch athletes.

p35
November 23, 2003, 08:58 PM
If this isn't too far OT, why don't we start putting pressure on gun show organizers to stop letting idiots sell racist/Nazi crap at gun shows? Gives all of us a bad name IMHO. Obviously, I'm not talking about Lugers or K98s, but Nazi flags, copies of Mein Kampf , the Turner Diaries , and junk like that.

Jammer Six
November 23, 2003, 09:05 PM
The best 7'-2" WNBA center, is not (IMO) any competition for a top notch 7'-2" NBA center.

That, perhaps, is one of our greatest losses.

You certainly can't claim that because there isn't a center in WNBA now that could play center in the NBA that one either doesn't or will never exist.

The way things are right now, we'll never know. Not to mention the young women who won't play basketball because the WNBA doesn't pay what the NBA does, and because they realize that separate is never equal.

Just like the black medal of honor winners and the black senior officers we wouldn't have if the black race had remained confined to their roles as truck drivers and cargo handlers because they obviously didn't have to courage to be American fighting men.

The only way to either prove or disprove your claim (and my claims) would be to lift all restrictions, and judge players on one and only one criteria- ability.

GAC
November 23, 2003, 10:59 PM
There is a shop in Scottsdale, AZ (NOT Bear Arms, that's a nice place) where the owner or manager was spouting off on his views. He covered pretty much everbody: Jews, Blacks, Gays, and others. His commentry on Jewish people included (this is fairly accurate paraphrasing), "Three thousand years of civilization and their greatest contribution to history is compound interest." His comments on black people were, "Slavery wasn't so bad. If it was why did it last so long?" On gays, "AIDS is God's way of clearing things up," and "AIDS started because the black Africans were F'ing the monkeys."

This dude went on for five to ten minutes. A fella can cover a lot of ground in that amount of time. I was listening from the other side of the shop, and at first thought he was just making fun of racists by hitting every silly stereotype in the book. He was not and the person he was talking to - the only other customer - seemed to be in agreement. This happened two of three years ago and I have not back there since.

Gun shows and Nazi/Racist vendors: I went to one of the Great Western Gun Shows in Phoenix a year or so ago and there were a couple guys outside passing out flyers complaining that the show organizer would not grant them table space, were blocking their first amendment rights, kicked them out of the last show without reason, blah blah blah.

I accepted a flyer, read it, and went to the organizer's table to ask them what the guy was talking about. I didn't really care what he was talking about but I was curious. The lady at the table said the people in question were selling racist and Nazi themed products and recruiting for the cause. The organizer had Multiple complaints and kicked them out. Good for them.

Jim March
November 24, 2003, 02:06 AM
Jammer Six:

What you're saying about the "closet racists" being more dangerous matches what I've heard from blacks in California who have also spent recent time in the South. They say that California is worse; sure, there's a few loudmouth racists in the South but they're open about it, while in California the racism consists of quiet backstabbing.

It's also true that there's two basic types of racists: the ones taught that way by family while young, and those that become that way because of constant exposure to artificially-created "ghettos" and the social chaos therein.

My brother and I were emphatically not raised as racists...both parents were very reasonable in such matters. My brother spent a couple of years as a process server, dealing mostly with cases in "the projects" around the SF Bay Area...Richmond, the nastier bits of East Palo Alto, Pittsburg, West Oakland, etc. Eventually, he realized it was warping his brain in a racist fashion. Intellectually, he knew that such "ghettos" were the result of past deliberately racist policies in housing, jobs, welfare structure and the like. Intellectually. Gut level, he was getting nauseated at the sight of black skin and did NOT like what was happening to him, nor was he proud of it. He not only got out of that work, he moved well away from such areas and people just to let his head clear.

I consider that a reasonable move under the circumstances.

Cops in particular run the risk of the same thing happening. Hence police racism in the urban areas is past "chronic", it's off-scale out of control - and that type of "racism" (really connected as much with a socioeconomic class and the "hip hop culture") affects BLACK COPS TOO. Most people can't understand that part, because they see all forms of racism as stemming from the same root when that isn't the case at all. Worse, because cops are operating in a group, the attitudes developed get reinforced, esp. when racist cops form their own cliques.

clubsoda22
November 24, 2003, 03:11 AM
After 9/11 there was a lot of anti-muslim racism. My best friend being a muslim i was quite offended when i went to a gun shows and saw a sign one one table reading "No Sales to Muslims."

So, i usually carry a bunch of cash with me to gun shows because i don't like to pay in plastic there, a $100 incase i make a big purchace about $200 in 20's some smaller bills. I happened to have about $20 in ones. so i rolled them all togeather in the bathroom with $100 on the outside to make this giant wad of cash that looked like at least several thousand dollars in hunded dollar bills.

I walked over to the table with the "no sales to muslims" sign and saw this beautiful preban colt delta H-bar with an adjustable leupold scope going for about $2500. It was the most expensive thing on his table. I started chatting with the gun shop owner about the gun and said after about 10 minutes, "ok, i'll take it" and yanked out the giant wad of cash. His eyes lit up like a kid on christmas and he quickly ran to get his paperwork. When he came back with the legal forms I said, "you know, i just noticed this sign here, and seeing as how i'm an american born muslim, i can assume you don't want my business." He begged and pleaded with me, attemped to justify the sign in any way possible. I called him a nazi and left.

The look on his face was priceless.

BluesBear
November 24, 2003, 03:13 AM
I was born & raised in Kentucky. I was taught all my life that all men were created equal. How they messed up their lives after that was up to them.

I don't judge a person by the colour of their skin I judge them on their level of stupidity. I have very low tolerance for stupid people. I know it's wrong and I am trying to change, but there are just so danged MANY of them! :banghead:

On another note (literally) I have spent a large portion of my life as a blues musician. I have played in many racially mixed bands. In one band the joke was, It was easy to spot me on stage, I was the white guy.

Now being from Kentucky I always considered myself a southerner (KY has that option). To the people I grew up with the Bars & Stars was just a flag that showed our pride in being from the south. It had NOTHING to do with racism or slavery. Yeah I know that some people deface it and spew moronic propoganda while carrrying one, but almost every lying politician on TV is seen speaking while standing in front of Old Glory. We don't blame the flag for their lies do we?

I know a ton of southern, non-racist, good ol' boys who fly the Stars & Bars.

Those who judge a person by the flag they fly are just as biggoted as the racists they think it signifies.

My Father's family came from England. I am also partial to the Union Jack.

But if I display the Union Jack no one seems to mind. I guess that little dispute in the mid 1700s has been forgiven. Perhaps someday that little conflict of the mid 1800s will be forgiven too.

As for the mid 1900s? Now that's gonna leave a scar. :D

I now live in Seattle and while I am proud to live in the Great Pacific Northwet, I will forever be damn proud to have been raised a Southern Gentleman.

United We Stand, Divided We Fall, Y'all.

Jammer Six
November 24, 2003, 04:31 AM
Those who judge a person by the flag they fly are just as biggoted as the racists they think it signifies

Actually, a racist judges you by something that's not in your control- your race.

Judging someone by a choice they make, like which flag to fly, is considerably different.

Your statement, therefore, while true, attempts to set those who judge by choice on the same level as those who judge by something over which the judged has no control, and those aren't even close.

You are, and will continue to be judged by the choices you make, and that's exactly as it should be.

Including the colors you fly.

B_Scott
November 24, 2003, 11:32 AM
Jammer - you are correct in the above post.
However, as BluesBear knows...American by birth, Southern by the grace of God.
If someone doesn't want to associate with me because I believe that Southerners died for a noble cause (NOT slavery), then so be it. Ignorance is bliss.

Anyway...At my favorite local gunshop there are 3 men behind the counter. None of them are racist. The shop is located just outside of a bad nieghborhood (like everything in the New Orleans area). Guns have been bought there that were used in crimes - they have been subpoena many times. This doesn't stop them from selling to blacks - nor should it. The shops target market is blacks in the neighborhood who want to protect themselves. This is one reason why I like this place. They sell alot of those "junk guns" that are the only protection poor people can afford. It is also the only shop that welcomes these "types of people".

Andrew Rothman
November 24, 2003, 12:23 PM
When he came back with the legal forms I said, "you know, i just noticed this sign here, and seeing as how i'm an american born muslim, i can assume you don't want my business." He begged and pleaded with me, attemped to justify the sign in any way possible. I called him a nazi and left.

The look on his face was priceless.
Beautiful. Bravo.
http://messenger.msn.com/Resource/emoticons/thumbs_up.gifhttp://messenger.msn.com/Resource/emoticons/thumbs_up.gifhttp://messenger.msn.com/Resource/emoticons/thumbs_up.gifhttp://messenger.msn.com/Resource/emoticons/thumbs_up.gifhttp://messenger.msn.com/Resource/emoticons/thumbs_up.gifhttp://messenger.msn.com/Resource/emoticons/thumbs_up.gif

Andrew Rothman
November 24, 2003, 12:29 PM
I found a great little mom-and-pop gun shop, very near my house, nice selection, good prices, gunsmith on site.

I got into a conversation with the owner about buying and selling. He complained about how people would look at the price tag, and then try to "Jew me down."

Sigh. Did he even look at me? I mean, I am a poster child for semitic features: Big schnoz, glasses, even a black beard.

I said, sadly, "I wish you hadn't said that."

He made a bumbling apology. I made an exit. I found another gun shop.

buzz_knox
November 24, 2003, 12:36 PM
I got into a conversation with the owner about buying and selling. He complained about how people would look at the price tag, and then try to "Jew me down."

That statement is not, of itself, sufficient to brand one a racist. It is, rather, an extremely distasteful part of our language now. Many people don't even give a thought to its roots. I heard it my whole life and, notwithstanding my complete lack of anti-semitism, sometimes have to make a conscious effort to avoid its use.

spacemanspiff
November 24, 2003, 12:41 PM
anyone else see 'king of the hill' last night?

"peggy, look! ladybird is biting a WHITE guy! isnt that great?"

if you saw it, you'd get the joke.

Jim March
November 24, 2003, 01:01 PM
There are two reasons Jews got connected with "hardcore business practices" (esp. in Europe):

1) Jews weren't allowed to own land, so they had to go into some sort of business/merchant trade, or banking...

2) The Catholics were prohibited from loaning money at interest, but could borrow. Jews had no such restrictions, so some basically became venture capitalists. Nothing wrong with that, in fact today we understand the value of seed money and such. (Jewish money financed such startups as the British East India Company and scads of others...odd are the list would include Beretta probably more than once in it's 475 year history). But it led to a big problem, in that very often the town's aristocracy would find it easier to stir up a mob to kill the "Christ killers" than pay off their gambling debts or whatever...so the Jews had to keep their finances liquid enough to be carried while sprinting from a buncha yahoos with pitchforks. Hence the whole thing about "Jews and gold". A few Jewish banking families remain from those origins, the Rosthchilds being perhaps the most famous.

(Sidenote: Muslims were (and more or less remain) forbidden to either loan or borrow, although they've found some creative ways to sidestep that of late as banking got more respectable (not to mention necessary). This was one factor that has crippled their financial competitiveness, the other main issue being the inheritence laws that automatically dissolve all partnerships upon the death of one partner. Whoops. Running a family business past a generation is difficult in the Islamic world, past two nearly impossible.)

But anyways. That's the real story of the whole "Jews are stingy gold-hoarders" or whatever...it's all about past discrimination.

wingnutx
November 24, 2003, 03:15 PM
GAC- What scottsdale store would that be? I go to a couple in Scottsdale on occasion, and would like to know who to take off of my list.

clubsoda22
November 24, 2003, 04:09 PM
Gun owning american jews, such as myself, are rare enough. The guy should have paid attention.

williegee
November 24, 2003, 04:14 PM
I am Filipino-American and I find that whenever I walk into a gun shop or go to the range here in Texas, there's probably a 90% chance that I'm going to be the only Asian in the place. Having said that, I can honestly say that I have never been to a gun shop or range where I have feel I have been disciminated against or disrespected because of my ethnicity. Just lucky I guess. On the contrary, the people that I've had the pleasure of dealing with have always been nothing but corteous and helpful to both my wife (who happens to be white) and myself. Like with most professions, there is going to be that small percentage of people who are going to give the rest a bad name. I believe that most people in the "gun culture"are pretty good folks and my experience pretty much bears that out. My $0.02.
Everyone stay safe!

Will:D

Moparmike
November 24, 2003, 04:23 PM
Ya know, you learn more here than in some learning institutions.:) :scrutiny: :uhoh:

Penforhire
November 24, 2003, 04:31 PM
The comment that one racist does not make for a racist store is not completely accurate. If you noticed it in ten seconds that person's co-workers must know they are racist. So they tolerate it, if not actively support it. So to me one racist DOES make for a racist retail establishment.

And I tolerate just about everything except racists and other bigots. Guess that makes me a bigot of a different kind ...

Andrew Rothman
November 24, 2003, 04:37 PM
That statement is not, of itself, sufficient to brand one a racist.

...I heard it my whole life and, notwithstanding my complete lack of anti-semitism, sometimes have to make a conscious effort to avoid its use.

Try harder.

Is there some doubt in your mind what "Jew" or "******" or "Gook" means?

Once you reached the age where you knew what the words and phrases meant, the fact that you were not repelled by the thought of ever uttering them speaks to your long-ingrained prejudices.

Sorry. I choose to be much less accomodating of others' unthinking stereotypes.

MrAcheson
November 24, 2003, 04:57 PM
Jews had no such restrictions, so some basically became venture capitalists.

IIRC Mosiac law also holds that Jews and Gentiles can be treated using seperate (and not equal) rules. So it some areas it was a two way street of discrimination. Jews lent to Jews at significantly lower interest than Jews lent to gentiles. This obviously formed a seed for resentment between the two communities. I believe Mosiac law discourages this practice, but does still allow it.

And yes there are differences between the races and sexes. I am white and my family will likely have a much lower rate of Sickle-Cell Anemia than my african-american co-workers' families. I've gone to my girlfriend's synagogue and its definitely different from my church on a cultural level (although there are a surprising number of things which are similar). On the gender side of things, men don't get pregnant and tend to be physically stronger than women, but women tend to have better manual dexterity.

People are different. Sorry we are. We as a culture need to learn to deal with this and realize that different doesn't necessarily mean better or worse. You can be equal without being the same. At some level uniformity breaks down and different people have different problems.

BluesBear
November 24, 2003, 05:09 PM
TIME OUT !

Are you serious? Are you comparing the word Jew with those other two words? :rolleyes:

I have been "jewed" but I have never been (those other two words)

I grew up in the country, we had jewish neighbors. Hells bells i didn't even know they were Jewish until I as about 9 or 10. They were just neighbors.

It was they whp taught me the phraseology "Jew someone down". Nowadays it may not be the most politically correct thing to say, but I was taught, that it just meant that the Jewish were better at bartering.

I have worked in three different pawnshops. One was owned by a Jewish family. One was owned by a Catholic family. One was owned by an "italian" family. What they had in common was that ALL of them were extremely stingy.

As I see it, to "Jew" someone is to haggle price or value.
And to "screw" someone is to out and out cheat them.


But hey what do I know, I'm just a WASP, whose great great grandfather came here from Ireland as an "Indentured Servant" which back then was just barely a notch above slave. In fact when he died decades later he was still indentured.


Black Flag still makes a poison spray to kill wasps and hornets but I try to not take it personally. (But I hear that the hornets are still upset.)

p35
November 24, 2003, 05:29 PM
Gentlemen:
I recognize that a Confederate flag can mean either "I'm a proud Southerner" or "I'm a racist a-hole", and that the two don't necessarily go together. However, I live about as far from the South as it's possible to get without leaving the CONUS, so we don't get a lot of proud Southerners around here. Also, I wouldn't think twice about a Confederate flag bumper sticker, but where someone is going to great lengths to wave it in everyone's face on the 4th of July, as I originally described, I get suspicious of their motives.

Hope I didn't offend too many people with my original post.

TaxPhd
November 24, 2003, 06:47 PM
What was described in the original post (and others following it) would accurately be described as "Bigotry," not racism. Racism is the belief in the inherent superiority of one race vis-a-vis another, and that is not what happened.

Given the inflamatory nature of the word, precision is important.

Harold Mayo
November 24, 2003, 07:21 PM
Just my own experience, of course, but I HAVE visited most of the gun stores in the major cities of the Midwest and the South and I have found that gun store employees are, by and by, some of the MOST prejudiced people that I've met. Not just in terms of race but in terms of almost anything. I am actually surprised if I am in a gunstore and a minority or group of minorities walk in and they are NOT looked at "funny" by the employees.

Wildalaska
November 24, 2003, 07:22 PM
IIRC Mosiac law also holds that Jews and Gentiles can be treated using seperate (and not equal) rules. So it some areas it was a two way street of discrimination. Jews lent to Jews at significantly lower interest than Jews lent to gentiles. This obviously formed a seed for resentment between the two communities. I believe Mosiac law discourages this practice, but does still allow it.

Your wrong but unfortunately this aint the Board to discuss it

WiltalmudAlaska

Penforhire
November 24, 2003, 07:23 PM
I cringe whenever I hear the phrase "Jewed down." Lots of people who have said it to me are not overly racist but there must be something in their background. Sorry, but that's not a phrase that ready to made neutral by popular use. I don't think it will be considered neutral until Jews use it, and I can assure you they don't.

Jammer Six
November 24, 2003, 08:36 PM
People are different. Sorry we are.

Exactly!

In my opinion, it's all tribal.

That could be because my people are tribal, but the word fits.

What follows isn't directed at anyone here. Come back to that sentence, and read it again if you forget it.

In my opinion, man invented war within thirty seconds of discovering that there was more than one tribe, but I digress.

Tribes are drawn along all kinds of lines.

Lines of race, religion, language, color, height, and geographical location, to name a few obvious ones.

There are tribes that burn their women to death, right now, in 2003. There are tribes that won't admit you unless you've comitted a felony, in the presence of a tribal member. There are tribes that will welcome anyone, at any hour, and there are tribes who say they welcome anyone, but some money will make you ever-so-slightly more welcome. There are tribes who chant, drum, sing, dance, and there are tribes who sit silently for a lot longer than I can.

The problem is that there is no longer room for space between the tribes, and that some tribes are bigger and stronger than other tribes. The tribes must live together.

There are many, many tribes that don't like each other, some for good reason, some for recent reasons, and some for reasons that have been lost to history.

The tribes in East L.A., as far as I can tell, don't like anyone.

There are some tribes (wife beaters come readily to mind) that if you are a member, I already don't like you, and never will. There are other tribes (cops, most of them, anyway, are the first examples I can think of) that if you belong, we're probably going to get along.

I don't believe it's possible for you to suddenly, one day, decide that you've been wrong all your life, and the enemy tribe really isn't the enemy, after all. Once you've tasted the poison, and especially once you've seen the blood of your tribal enemy, you will never be the same, and there is no going back.

In the United States, in 2003, what those of us who belong to some of the smaller tribes will have, what we need to live closely with other tribes, what we DEMAND, is that you ACT as if we are not the enemy.

Control yourself. Live in your poison, if you must, but keep it out of your voice.

Choose your words as if we were members of your tribe.

Teach it to your children, if you insist, and poison them, also, but in the same lesson teach them that if they reveal their twisted truth to us, there will no longer be peace between the tribes. Teach them what it will cost all of us, and show them the real price. Be ready for the day that they discover their own truth, and be prepared for their rejection.

Act as if we are not the enemy, in all things, because everything depends on it.

If not respect, then manners.

As long as you act as if we are not enemies, as long as your act is convincing and complete, it will be possible for our tribes to live in peace together. I am aware that I can't cure you, and I probably wouldn't if I could. You certainly can't cure me.

If you can choke your poison down and swallow it, I can choke mine down, if you can make your manners sound genuine, I can do the same with mine.

The only alternative is war between the tribes.

williegee
November 24, 2003, 08:48 PM
Jammer Six:

Good post. Truer words were never spoken.

jrhead75
November 24, 2003, 09:14 PM
Nicely put, Jammer Six.

On an unrelated note, and going back a bit: Oh. Well. I guess they buy into the Bering Strait migration theory... Considering the body of genetic and archaeological evidence for the "out of Africa" theory, am I missing something? The admittedly smallish body of scientific research into the origins of the human species on the American continent that I've read, seems to support population of this continent via the Bering bridge, and/or the South Pacific Islands. Are you privy to some science that I've overlooked?

Not particularly relevant to the discussion of racism, I'm just looking for some enlightenment here.

Carlos
November 24, 2003, 09:29 PM
I read the first page of the thread only.

Jammer Six, you're a good man, is all I got to say.

JohnKSa
November 24, 2003, 10:04 PM
Not terribly uncommon in this area.

On the other hand, I've never seen a minority treated impolitely in any of the shops where I've heard the owner/operator make racist comments.

Jedi_7.62
November 24, 2003, 11:08 PM
Being white this isn't something I have to deal with. However, I dated a black girl for a long time and one day she went with me to a gunshow. Several people gave us odd looks and some wouldn't wait on us. But nobody had the guts to open there mouth. So no harm done they didn't get our money.


Money talks bull???? walks...

We never had any problems in shops tho.

My thought is I don't care if you like me or not just don't bother me and we'll get along fine...

hksw
November 25, 2003, 12:22 AM
You certainly can't claim that because there isn't a center in WNBA now that could play center in the NBA that one either doesn't or will never exist.
.
.
.
The only way to either prove or disprove your claim (and my claims) would be to lift all restrictions, and judge players on one and only one criteria- ability.

Yup, you're absolutely right. Cannot be 100% until it happens. And, IMO, you're right on it will probably never happen outside of an exhibition. Basing my judgement on individual physical abilities and not direct physical contact (basketball) and direct non-physical contact man vs woman exhibitions.

Sentry
November 25, 2003, 12:23 AM
I'd give them more business.

kerdspry
November 25, 2003, 07:30 AM
I'm real sure I'll make no friends with this one..

This little "I'm more diverse than you" love fest is really a hoot. While middle class America is trying to out "un-racist" the next person, you should see what's going on over at the BET website. The friendly folks over there hate you, and are very open and succinct about it. Go over to www.bet.com and follow the link on the right to their message board. WOW! What an eye opener.

BluesBear
November 25, 2003, 08:41 AM
I'm real sure I'll make no friends with this one..
Congratulations Sparky, you got it correct on the first guess.
:rolleyes:

buzz_knox
November 25, 2003, 09:08 AM
kerdspry does have a point. It is politically correct to be a racist if you are from a (real or perceived) minority or "oppressed" class. Black racists get a pass on a regular basis, and the Hispanic version of the Klan that Bustamante is part of is merely called a "cultural heritage group" by the media.

Racism is racism, unless you are a historical victim.

Andrew Rothman
November 25, 2003, 09:52 AM
Are you comparing the word Jew with those other two words?

I put "Jewed down" squarely in the same category as "****** necklace," "gypped," and "paddy wagon." It's thoughtless, bigoted drivel.

Get that? THOUGHTLESS. Anyone who takes the time and effort to consider the expression will decide that it sure might be offensive to some people. And isn't that a good enough reason to knock it the hell off?

I wish folks wouldn't try to excuse theirs and others' behavior by citing an example where a minority used a disparaging term on himself. Just because I hear one black person say to another, "Hey, nigga!" doesn't mean the term is now acceptable.

This isn't P.C. This is having a minimal human respect for the people around you. It's not hard. It doesn't infringe on your "rights" to CHOOSE to not be offensive.

Did I call the Anti-Defamation League because this thoughtless gun shop owner used an offensive term? No. I politely expressed my disapproval and then voted with my feet.

Hopefully the lesson will sink in. This guy's shop is in a tiny `burb adjacent to the suburb with the largest concentration of Jews in the Minneapolis metro. And I don't imagine he has that much margin to spare.

buzz_knox
November 25, 2003, 10:00 AM
"Jewing" someone falls in the same category as "n__ rigging" to me. It's offensive to those who think about it, but so much a part of the vocabulary around here that some who aren't actually racist use it without thinking. Some of us are trying to change that.

Bill Hook
November 25, 2003, 10:03 AM
"gypped," and "paddy wagon." It's thoughtless, bigoted drivel.

Paddy Wagon is pretty common usage and not racist in my book, and while I don't say "gypped" often, I never really perceived anything particularly racist about it and it took me a while to get the etymology behind it. "Jewed" seems more offensive, but I can see folks using it out of ignorance rather than malice.

You already said yourself that you look Jewish, so bearing in mind that that didn't set off the guy at the gunshop, I think it's safe to conclude that he isn't an inveterate Aryan card-carrying Nazi, just thoughtless and ignorant. He did make an attempt at an apology and you should've said that you didn't appreciate what he said but did accept his apology as sincere. This is a lot different than him giving approbation to the idea of killing religious groups and minorities he didn't like.

p35
November 25, 2003, 10:23 AM
hey kerdspry-

So there are black jackasses out there, just as there are jackasses of every other ethnicity and/or religion. Does that mean that you should be a jackass as well, or do you want to set a higher standard for yourself?

The other night I was rereading Admiral Stockdale's article on Epictetus, the Roman philosopher who got him through 7 years in the Hanoi Hilton. Consider this:

"Some things are in our control and others not. Things in our control are opinion, pursuit, desire, aversion, and, in a word, whatever are our own actions. Things not in our control are body, property, reputation, command, and, in one word, whatever are not our own actions.

The things in our control are by nature free, unrestrained, unhindered; but those not in our control are weak, slavish, restrained, belonging to others. Remember, then, that if you suppose that things which are slavish by nature are also free, and that what belongs to others is your own, then you will be hindered. You will lament, you will be disturbed, and you will find fault both with gods and men. But if you suppose that only to be your own which is your own, and what belongs to others such as it really is, then no one will ever compel you or restrain you. Further, you will find fault with no one or accuse no one. You will do nothing against your will. No one will hurt you, you will have no enemies, and you not be harmed. "

Jammer Six
November 25, 2003, 12:10 PM
Racism is racism, unless you are a historical victim.

It's racism then, too.

Jammer Six
November 25, 2003, 12:21 PM
He did make an attempt at an apology and you should've said that you didn't appreciate what he said but did accept his apology as sincere.

"I'm sorry, Honey, I won't hit you again. Really, I promise."

Some things can't be forgiven, no matter how sincere the apology. Furthermore, whether or not the apology is accepted probably hinges more on whether he's hit her before, and how good the chances are he'll hit her again tomorrow night.

I wouldn't believe an apology that was generated by an obviously confirmed racist or anti-semite simply because he was caught.

I'm not saying that an ignorant, thoughtless comment can't be forgiven, I'm saying that it's up to MPayne to decide how badly he was "hit", and how good the chances were that he'd be "hit" again, should he decide to accept the apology offered and stick around that gun shop.

kerdspry
November 25, 2003, 01:07 PM
p35,
This isn't about setting standards, or taking any side in the dialog. My only point was to highlight just how absurd it is to watch middle class America tripping over itself in apology, low self-esteem, and guilty feelings. While those that are today "politically correct" are free to act in any way desired, without the guilt, etc..

Far and away, the majority of colloquialisms are not racist or intended to insult. As a culture we've become so overly sensitized to the "major/ minorities" that every word is measured, and every miss-step viewed as a direct effort to roll back the clock 200 years. And you better not get between the "bandwagon" and someone with a guilty conscience, you'll either get run over, or worse yet labeled a racist……

Oleg Volk
November 25, 2003, 02:47 PM
Mpayne, that wouldn't be the Outdoorsman (most likely) or the Frontiersman?

Correia
November 25, 2003, 03:08 PM
Sentry, what is that supposed to mean?

GySgt
November 25, 2003, 03:08 PM
Mr. Hook,

After reading several of the threads you've started, I get the feeling you have an "agenda" and that you're trolling.

But no matter, this is America and no matter how much y'all cram politial correctness down the throats of the masses....they have the right to their opinions. Period! You have the right not to do business with them.

And Rayjay, would you have been as upset if the gentleman had given your child a Confederate, Iraqi, or Mexican flag?

:rolleyes:

Jammer Six
November 25, 2003, 03:21 PM
Far and away, the majority of colloquialisms are not racist or intended to insult.

Yup, that's exactly what I was writing about in my first response in this thread- racist who honestly believe that they're not.

jem375
November 25, 2003, 03:58 PM
Well, getting back to the gun store racist talking, so what?....if you don't like it just leave........they have a right to their opinion also.........If I don't like it, I will just leave and don't come back, and if it doesn't bother me, I will go back...........big deal

GySgt
November 25, 2003, 04:04 PM
I put "Jewed down" squarely in the same category as "****** necklace," "gypped," and "paddy wagon." It's thoughtless, bigoted drivel.

This is just nonsense and you really need to get rid of that chip on your shoulder.....These phrases don't even compare to the others you describe. I'm half American Indian, so don't whip that racist label on me either....I am an equal opportunity racist, if I am one anyway. Because I don't care what color, creed, or sex you are.....if you're blocking the fastlane and holding up traffic, I don't like you!!

Oh and not that it matters, but I happen to be a Cleveland Indians and Atalanta Braves fan as well.....so does that make me a racist towards my own race? Get over it!!!

Andrew Rothman
November 25, 2003, 06:43 PM
the majority of colloquialisms are not racist or intended to insult

The colloquialisms are bigoted. The person who uses them may be one or more of the following: bigoted, thoughtless or ignorant.

Bigots I give no second chances.
Thoughtless folks know better, but don't care.
The ignorant I try to gently inform. The non-thoughtless, non-bigoted ones are abashed when they realize what they've been saying.

For the record, the gun shop owner who used the term "jew down" tried to excuse the usage, not apologize for saying it. That didn't go far enough for me. Not my job to convince him he's being a jackass.

The unchallenged, continued use of such colloquailisms perpetuates and reinforces a standard of bigotry and discrimination.

The creation of a "them" is a necessary first step in treating "them" differently from "us."

Don't brush off these nuances of language so quickly. Language shapes culture. And a vocabulary of discrimination indicates and propagates a culture of discrimination.

you really need to get rid of that chip on your shoulder........don't whip that racist label on me either

And you need to get some manners. Don't tell me how to feel and don't presume to preemptively accuse me of behavior which I had no intention of displaying.

I don't demand that you agree with me, but I will expect you to disagree with respect.

Jim March
November 25, 2003, 08:18 PM
Some of these slurs are so old, most people don't even know what they mean. For example, does anybody here know the national group mentioned in "Jerrycan" and disparaged in "Jerry-rigged"?

One I get a real kick out of is "Gringo", which is a term used by Mexicans or people of Mexican origins for...well, for me :). Basic white Americans. Very, very few know where it came from...and if you do and you're white, it's far funnier than it is insulting.

I'm curious to see if anybody knows where THAT one came from...

Jammer Six
November 25, 2003, 08:41 PM
Very, very few know where it came from...and if you do and you're white, it's far funnier than it is insulting.


So, as long as the insult if funny, or the insulted party doesn't know he's been insulted, or both, it's OK?

[Now, don't anybody give him any clues...]

romulus
November 25, 2003, 08:46 PM
Should I start singing Green Grows the Grass ?

Maybe I'll wait till my holiday in Ciudad de Mexico....

Andrew Rothman
November 25, 2003, 10:08 PM
Jerry-rigged and Jerry can refer to Germans, called "Jerries" during WWI. (Or was it II?)

"Gringo" comes from "Green Coat," referring to the US Army uniforms.

GySgt
November 25, 2003, 10:18 PM
Jerry-rigged and Jerry can refer to Germans, called "Jerries" during WWI.
"Gringo" comes from "Green Coat," referring to the US Army uniforms.

And those are ok, it's just Jew we can't use? I guess that means we're going to have to come up with another word in Church to describe Jesus, huh? Log me into your "Just don't care" category, since you seem to want to categorize everyone yourself.

Funny how the worst bigots use political correctness as an excuse for their own predjudice. :rolleyes:

BluesBear
November 25, 2003, 10:36 PM
Well, I guess I'll have to get rid of my Kinky Friedman albums or risk getting kicked off THR. :uhoh:

p35
November 25, 2003, 11:42 PM
I thought it was "jury rigged", an old nautical term from sailing days. Don't know enough about sailing to say what it means but I think it was something you did when the mast broke.

pax
November 25, 2003, 11:48 PM
I thought it was "jury rigged", an old nautical term from sailing days. Don't know enough about sailing to say what it means but I think it was something you did when the mast broke.
And I always thought it was "chewed down." Surprised the heck out of me when someone told me I was racist for using the phrase. :o

pax

Beetle Bailey
November 26, 2003, 01:48 AM
"Gringo" comes from "Green Coat," referring to the US Army uniforms

I heard something similiar. An old guy told me "Gringo" was what the Mexicans said to the US Army soldiers when those soldiers were in Mexico. Supposedly they were saying "Green, go!" telling them to get out of their country. I'm assuming it was during that Pancho Villa business.

Sergeant Bob
November 26, 2003, 06:03 AM
I think someone needs to publish a list of double plus ungood words and phrases which should never be uttered, so no one will ever be offended (even if looking to be) by anyone else (either knowingly or unknowingly) again. I'd expect it would be a pretty large list.

Jim March
November 26, 2003, 07:50 AM
The first version I heard of the "Gringo tale" was that it came from a drinking song done to words Robert Burns penned, and was particularly popular with Scots-origin troops. The chorus was usually sung drunk and loud around the campfire, loud enough that Mexican troops in the US/Mex war (1848, right?) could hear it:

"Green grow, the grasses O!"

Now, besides the authorized words you can easily find on the 'net, according to my half-Scot pop Burns actually did pornagraphic parodies of his own published work. So while the chorus was the same, it was the risque' version that was popular with the troops.

I just did some digging, and there's controversy over this. On the one hand, both version of Burn's tune were popular around the right time period, but there's a competing theory it's derived from the Spanish word for "Greek". In English, we often generically label incomprehensible language "Greek", and the Spanish/Mexicans did the same thing...esp. when somebody tries to learn Spanish but has an underlying accent that seriously doesn't work out, like Scots/Irish accents.

Dunno. A wartime origin makes sense, as more or less every army comes up with some kind of joke term for the other side...Limey, Kraut, Frog, Jerry, Charlie, we could go on for days. In this case, if "Gringo" is also a war-origin term, then a loud campfire chorus makes sense...

BryanP
November 26, 2003, 08:43 AM
After Jim's comments on the origins of various slurs am I the only one with Monty Python's "Never Be Rude to an Arab" song running rampant through his brain?

(I'd post the lyrics but someone might take offense)

Basically my take on this whole thread is this - if you don't like someone's attitude / statements then don't buy things from them and let them know why. You don't have to do business with them or associate with them, but keep in mind that you don't have a right to not be offended.

Andrew Rothman
November 26, 2003, 08:44 AM
And those are ok, it's just Jew we can't use? I guess that means we're going to have to come up with another word in Church to describe Jesus, huh?

Kindly point out where anyone said or even implied that.

Are you being deliberately obtuse? There is nothing wrong with the word "Jew" (although I'd prefer NOT to be called Kyke, Hymie, Hebe, or Yid), but "Jewed down" is pretty damn clearly offensive.

Log me into your "Just don't care" category, since you seem to want to categorize everyone yourself.

You say, "Just don't care." I say, "thoughtless." Tomayto, Tomahto.

Well, I guess I'll have to get rid of my Kinky Friedman albums or risk getting kicked off THR.

Please see "hey, nigga" above. Self deprecation is NOT the same as bigotry. But you knew that, right, but wanted to be obnoxious anyway? BluesBear, you are capable of much better.

ysr_racer
November 26, 2003, 10:02 AM
I cringe whenever I hear the phrase "Jewed down."

Please don't use that phrase around me, I'm a Jew, I'm armed and I'm not that friendly.


"Jew" is a funny word. I'm a "Jew" because I'm Jewish. However if you refer to me as a "Jew" it better be in a nice way. Something like, Brad is a "Jew", he'll know if this is a Jewish Holiday, is OK

If I hear something like, "He tried to Jew me down", then we have a problem.

semf
November 26, 2003, 11:32 AM
It is generally excepted that Gringo comes from Green Grows the Grass ( it was even a question on that millionaire show) which is a cute song. However it dosn't make me feel any better to be call a Gringo.

I have heard many explanations for the so called N word. But as far as I am concerned it is simply a mispronuniation of the word Negro much like Injun is a mispronunciation of Indian.

Now knowing my explanation for the existance of these two words. Would it make you any less offended if I spit out at you.

To paraphrase George Carlin. A racist comment cannot hurt you , it's the ignorant jerk behind the words that you better watch out for .

kerdspry
November 26, 2003, 12:08 PM
Mpayne,

Does this quote look familiar? Guess who wrote it? Does this make you a bigot and a racist? hmmmmm

"The NRA needs to do more than recruit more white, rural, rifle-shootin' rednecks if it wants to succeed in changing the minds of the WHOLE country."

(I just happen to be one of those white, rural, rifle-shootin' rednecks and I'm offended by this comment)

Or maybe it's just one of those Minneapolis colloquialisms, and you really didn't intend to insult anyone. Just using the language to make a point.

Or how about this quote?

"The colloquialisms are bigoted. The person who uses them may be one or more of the following: bigoted, thoughtless or ignorant."
So, does this include you as well?

Or maybe it's the post where you refer to people that believe that communism is a good form of government as "commies" (I can go find the entire thread that you posted in if you like)

If race and religion are included in the list of taboo topics, why not politics?

I wonder how many other skeletons are out there in the archives?

Okay, go ahead and lecture some more on how someone that uses your religion as an adjective is lower than pond scum. Me included :)

p35
November 26, 2003, 01:27 PM
You guys should spend some time in Hawa'ii (tough duty, I know). The vast majority of the population is non-white, and the various subgroups kid each other endlessly about ethnic stereotypes (ie Chinese hate to spend money, Filipinos eat dogs, Japanese never throw anything away, whites are uptight and out of touch with local culture, etc.) I get my share of cracks about being a "haole" when I'm with my friends there, since I'm usually the only one around. No one actually discriminates, though- everyone has friends of all different ethnicities. God help anyone who actually acts racist.

It's a funny thing- people from the Mainland sometimes got offended by the ethnic jokes, but it seems to me that ethnic relations are less of an issue than they are anywhere else. I don't think the rest of the country is to the point of actually kidding each other about ethnicity, but it will probably be a good thing when we do.

Andrew Rothman
November 26, 2003, 01:29 PM
Does this quote look familiar?

1. Welcome to the High Road. Guess what? We call it that for a reason. Please try to catch up.

2. I used the term "commies" exactly twice: once quoting it from someone else, and once ironically: "Free speech is for you, for me, for Nazis and Commies, and even for liberals!"

3. If you can't tell the difference between disparaging someone's race or religion and criticizing his politics, I can't help you.

4. I truly wonder sometimes why some folks try so hard to defend their bigotry. :confused:

Andrew Rothman
November 26, 2003, 02:15 PM
It's a funny thing- people from the Mainland sometimes got offended by the ethnic jokes, but it seems to me that ethnic relations are less of an issue than they are anywhere else. I don't think the rest of the country is to the point of actually kidding each other about ethnicity, but it will probably be a good thing when we do.

Very good point.

Friends of mine can kid with me about my ethnicity. This is because I know where they are coming from. When a stranger disparages my religion or ethnicity, I do not know his intentions and I am thus unwilling to give him a pass.

kerdspry
November 26, 2003, 04:57 PM
Okay, let me try to keep this post on topic. I wouldn’t spend my hard earned cash in a gun shop managed by people like Mpayne.


1. You’re trying to re-focus the blame on me? For your own hypocrisy and bigoted posts? Now that’s funny!!! What about your “redneck” comment? Not even an empty apology? Why does the term “victim” keep coming to mind.

2. How many times do you have to say or post something before it’s considered bigotry? Is there one of those 5 second rules? Like when a child drops his favorite candy on the floor? :)


3. Let’s review the definition of bigot;

Pronunciation: 'bi-g&t
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle French, hypocrite, bigot
Date: 1661
: a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices

Hmmm, doesn’t seem to mention anything about being limited to race or religion.

4. I’m not the one in denial here, or defending my actions. We can go through my posts slowly if you’re having trouble with some of the concepts. Isn’t there a saying that says something like thou doest protest a bit too loudly?

5. Hey this counting thing is fun.

6. I retract my I wouldn’t shop in your store comment, I’ll shop where ever I can find what I’m looking for, whether it’s service, price, color, whatever, at the best price possible. And I really don’t care if look funny, smell bad, swear a lot, or have cat whiskers and dog claws.

Andrew Rothman
November 26, 2003, 06:27 PM
1. You’re trying to re-focus the blame on me?
Was I? Where?
For your own hypocrisy and bigoted posts?
I reject your premise.
What about your “redneck” comment?
What about it?

red·neck - A white person regarded as having a provincial, conservative, often bigoted attitude

Why does the term “victim” keep coming to mind.
It's pretty clear that there is no accounting for what goes on in your mind.
2. How many times do you have to say or post something before it’s considered bigotry?
Once. I think it's clear that my point was that I never used "commie" disparagingly. If you are a communist and have had your feelings hurt, I'm very sorry...that you don't understand irony.

3. Let’s review the definition of bigot...
...a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices

Hmmm, doesn’t seem to mention anything about being limited to race or religion.
That's true. You can be a BMW bigot or a 1911 bigot (none of those here! :)). But we know what we mean when we say that. And it's not the same as racial or ethnic bigotry. Are you claiming it is?
4. I’m not the one in denial here, or defending my actions.
Sure you are. "Okay, go ahead and lecture some more on how someone that uses your religion as an adjective is lower than pond scum. Me included."

Actually, the usage to which I objected uses "Jew" as a verb.

We can go through my posts slowly if you’re having trouble with some of the concepts.
You can find someplace else to hang out if you're going to be a condescending child.
Isn’t there a saying that says something like thou doest protest a bit too loudly?
Well, Shakespeare wrote "Methinks the lady doth protest too much." "Doth" is third person sigular. "Doest" is second person imperative.
5. Hey this counting thing is fun.
Given your lack of success with grammar and literature, that's very good for you.
6. I retract my I wouldn’t shop in your store comment, I’ll shop where ever I can find what I’m looking for, whether it’s service, price, color, whatever, at the best price possible. And I really don’t care if look funny, smell bad, swear a lot, or have cat whiskers and dog claws.
Fair enough. I think the extent of my comment was that I won't. It's a free country, mostly.

semf
November 26, 2003, 07:15 PM
[QUOTE] red·neck - A white person regarded as having a provincial, conservative, often bigoted attitude[QUOTE]


To some ,me included, that is a bigoted ignorant definition. There was a time when Redneck and even Cracker were honorable terms. I'd be interested to know where you got that definition. Regardless of where it is still usually spit out as an insult based mostly on where someone was raised and more often by their accent.
I won't shop at a store with that attitude either. We used to call it Bubba Bashing.

Betty
November 26, 2003, 07:17 PM
Folks, let's keep this thread civil.

We're all on the same side here, right? :(

Sergeant Bob
November 27, 2003, 02:27 AM
Here's the other definition for "Redneck"

1. Used as a disparaging term for a member of the white rural laboring class, especially in the southern United States.

This is the one which was given:

2. A white person regarded as having a provincial, conservative, often bigoted attitude.

From www.dictionary.com (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=redneck)

semf
November 27, 2003, 02:56 AM
Thanks Bob I checked it out they didn't get cracker right either.

Sentry
November 27, 2003, 12:28 PM
It's supposed to mean that I WOULD GIVE THEM MORE BUSINESS. They know how to exercise their 1st amendment rights in addition to their 2nd, good for them. If they have racist political views, who cares? I doubt they're out shooting anyone.

XLMiguel
November 27, 2003, 01:36 PM
Interesting thread, many sound insights, and a few strange notions, too. I see many good hearts here, and some who have yet to truly know their own.

Just to stir the pot, ramble a bit, and share a few observations, I've got to agree with those who have observed that it's the closeted, PC basckstabbers/bigots that are the most dangerous, followed by the delusional folks who think they have no prejudices. Given a little time and a couple of beers, I bet I could find some sort of prejudice in virtually everyone here. I don't think anyone is immune, but some recognize this and work at more than others (and some daze i have to work very hard).

Let me add that most humor is at someone's expense, steroetypes grow from cultural traits as observed by those outside that culture, but if you're going to play on ethic or cultural humor, it's real good thing to make sure your subject knows (and can take a) it's a joke. If you're 'just funnin', well Ok, but if you're doing it to belittle, embarass, or degrade, you've got a problem (and you will reap what you sow). Much racism grows out of fear and misunderstanding - the fear of outsiders and lack of understanding of their 'differences'. It is tribal. But I will add, it's a sorry SOB that has to run someone else down (for whatever reason), so they can feel good about themselves, and that's why most racists are losers in life. BTW, Jeff Foxworthy aside, "redneck" is not a compliment nor an affinity group one should aspire to (much different than 'good ol' boy'), trust me on that.

Lastly "discrimination" (from the Latin discrimino, "to know the difference". We all discriminate every day, hopefully based on observation, education, and experience, it's a survival skill. However, discrimination based on ignorance, prejudice, or fear is morally and ethically wrong. It is hard to see what is in a person heart, but I think people deserve the benefit of the doubt and little respect until they show otherwise.

Don't mind me, it just the tryptophan talking, ever'one have a happy Thanksgiving

:cool:

Zedicus
November 27, 2003, 05:12 PM
The only humanoid creatures that you could say i am racest aganst are the undesirable beings that most sane indeviduals would like to see removed from the gene pool....

but as for nationality or color, they could be green, purple, or rainbow colored, and come from saturn, or the next galaxy and i wouldn't care.

bigjim
November 27, 2003, 07:03 PM
Here is a interesting thought at least to me.

I admit to feeling more comfortable around people that look ,act, and want the same things that I do. I enjoy the company of people that do not threaten me.

I prefer my culture to others, in fact I am very proud of my heritage. I think I belong to the culture that has brought more freedom and comfort to the world than any other. I think my people represent the last best hope for mankind.

So my question to you is I am I a racist? Are you forming a picture of me in your mind? What race am I?

Ed Ely
November 28, 2003, 12:16 AM
after reading all the posts in this thread, there are a
hellava a lot of racists who have posted.

As long as there is a difference in America, we will stay
America, but when the difference disappears, so will
America.

Ed

KevlarTester
November 28, 2003, 02:58 AM
PC love-fest.


"As a non-Hispanic white man"
Quoted from an earlier posting in this thread.

I read in the NY Times recently that many Hispanics were choosing other when queried about their race.

When was being Hispanic considered White?

SMLE
November 28, 2003, 10:21 AM
I worked in a gun shop in Albuquerque (anybody here remember Mike Noonan?). One day a fellow came in and was browsing. He spotted an Uzi carbine and made a remark about "Jewzies" then started spouting a bunch of "the holocaust never happened" garbage. I looked him in the eye and said; "Being a Jew myself, I have a rather different view on that." His eyeballs got so big thay damn near merged and he beat feet out of there and never came back. I saw him later at other gun shops or at shows and he would change directions the instant he saw me. I guess the idea of a 6'1" 250 pound Jew boy with a 1911 on his hip was more that he was willing to deal with. :D

For the record, I wasn't Jewish then, although I later converted.

tiberius
November 28, 2003, 10:42 AM
When was being Hispanic considered White?

Spain is primarily caucasian, and thus they are "white". "Hispanic" refers to a lanquage and not a race. In the new world Hispanics decend from European, Indian and African races. Not all "Hispanics" are mestizo as some people like to think....They are just as racially diverse as those of us who natively speak English.

Checking "Hispanic" is a race question would be equivalent to checking "Anglo".

Ian Sean
November 28, 2003, 08:59 PM
To reply to the original topic, No, I have not seen or heard any racist remarks at Gunstores, I mostly meet very nice people. A few idiots and kooks at GunSHOWS from time to time hawking the crap they try to sell is about it.

Would I refuse to do business with an individual or an establishment because of personal views? I allready do. Any business that promotes an anti-gun or anti-freedom or pro-left commie agenda does not get my business as it is.

Out and out racists, that tarnish the image of the law abiding gun owner easily fit the bill as well. We are all well aware of how the media loves to paint gun owners as racists. Look at the Steve Earle Thread. His song "The Devils Right Hand" was practically the theme song for the movie Betrayed. Betrayed was about racists instigating a civil war.

But the Libertarian in me also rages as well. As long as what you do does not cross the line and infringe on my rights, and what I do doesn't infringe on your rights then it shouldn't matter. When you enter a private business you give up your right to be offended. You on the other hand have the right to turn around, walk out and spend your money elsewhere.

Just my .02.

KevlarTester
November 28, 2003, 11:03 PM
Uh Oh, Bigotry central.

I’ll be as delicate as I possibly can; I don’t want a Label given to me either.

As a matter of convenience we try to limit the responses to a few broad categories.

Asian:
Korean, Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese....

Hispanic:
They all speak Spanish or some variation of it.
Mexican, Ecuadorian, Panamanian, Guatemalan, Brazilian, Spaniard...

Anyone from these countries isn’t white by any definition.

Although I’ll grant you that Spaniards may consider themselves white, But if you ask someone from France, Great Britain, Germany, Norway....they would beg to differ.


Anyone can call himself or herself whatever they wish.

pax
November 29, 2003, 01:00 AM
Anyone from these countries isn’t white by any definition.
Except their own.

But what does that matter? :rolleyes:

pax

All languages carry in them a portrait of their users and the idioms of every language say over and over again, 'He is a stranger and therefore a barbarian.' ... It is the only joke that God ever repeats, because its humor never grows stale. -- Robert A. Heinlein

semf
November 29, 2003, 03:45 AM
When you enter a private business you give up your right to be offended.
I disagree completely with that one. I have the right to be offended any time I feel slighted. When I'm in a private business is the only time I have the power to do anything about it.

As a lot of the bigmouth stars are finding out, One has the right to say almost anything they want, but there is sometimes a price for saying the wrong thing to wrong person.

They should be in business to make money. Driving out potential customers by showing their ignorance also shows a lack of common sense.

Ian Sean
November 29, 2003, 05:27 AM
semf, OOPS! I could have worded that a little better, you are right , the point I was making is on the rights front. You enter a private business, see something that turns you off, or downright offends you, tough luck. And if I don't like the way you look or if you do something stupid or suspicious I would reserve the right not to serve you and/or ask you to leave. I hope that makes sense and is a little clearer on the point I was trying to make.

I am sure the old Marine that runs the Army Navy Surplus store in town with all his pro-military god and country stuff and bumperstickers would not be very appealing to an anti-war protester either. Personnally I don't think he cares. I like the old grump, our politics are similar, and when I need something along the lines of mil-surp, he is my first stop.

geeman
November 29, 2003, 09:07 AM
I HATE white racists and I'm TERRIFIED of black racists. The former knows that he's wrong and the latter thinks he's right.
Garry

greyhound
November 29, 2003, 10:09 AM
So I went to check out "BET.com" since it was said that the messages boards contained a lot of racist stuff. I felt pretty sure the commenter was full of sand and it would be regular chat; given that BET is a major network I felt confident that they wouldn't put up with that crap.

Sweet Jeebus, was I wrong. A lot of that stuff sure isn't taking "The High Road". I feel very discouraged and kind of sad, actually.

We've got a lot of work to do to fix race relations in this country.

O.F.Fascist
November 29, 2003, 10:48 AM
When was being Hispanic considered White?

On my Texas birth certificate under race I'm marked as white.

I would assume all "non-black" hispanics are marked as white aswell.

Crazy
November 29, 2003, 01:34 PM
greyhound,
You’re right!! I went right past that comment until you brought it up.
Be afraid, be very afraid. That is one scary place.

Crazy

Frank5
November 30, 2003, 12:55 PM
bigjim...........feeling that way is OK. I see things pretty much the same way. Wanting to be with your own kind is OK. (unless you happen to be white it seems)

What race are you?? I won't go there.

Are you a racist?? I don't know you well enough to anwser that.
If you are.........it's no biggie. Lots of people are. It just seems whites are under more scrutiny than others when the word racism comes up.
:scrutiny: It's sort of a double standard.

That word is thrown around so much these days that it has lost much of its shock value. Its definition can be very narrow or very broad. I was once told that I have racist leanings because I am opposed to hiring quotas. If that makes me one.............so be it,I'm still against quotas. :cuss: My point is that someone's definition of racist is pretty broad. (anyone who disagrees with him on certain issues)

I've heard pres Bush called racist..................white guy...speaks Spanish...has the support of many Hispanics in Texas......has blacks (more than Clinton did) working in his admin.......appointed a couple non whites as federal judges (some of whom are being opposed by the Dems).......
....:confused: ....:confused: ?????........I guess I just don't get it.

Being called a racist does not even faze me. This multicultural/diversity crap has become like a state religion. I don't buy it. :fire:
And I don't have white guilt. :barf: Does that make a racist?? If it does it does.

pax
November 30, 2003, 01:20 PM
Y'know, I think this thread has really wandered away from being gun related.

Closed as OT.

pax

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