Proper Gun Dealer Etiquette?


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Hold My Own
March 20, 2010, 01:50 PM
So I just arrived back from my gun dealer and I'm not sure what to make of this, but there was a situation going on that doesn't seem like it's too uncommon that may have had an uncommon result. Let me paint the picture.

I was walking to the door from outside of the gun store, and I see one guy ahead of me walking in with a long case, and another guy getting out of his car going in as well.

The guy with the case made his way to the counter and I walked in going about my own business waiting for someone else to assist me. One of the employees tells me he'll be right back so I go to browse for a minute. I walk over to the other counter, and the two guys I saw walking in were there so I figured why not since I was interested in what was in the case. So the guy opens his case since he's there to sell some guns. A scoped Ruger Mini-14 and a Winchester Marine 12 gauge.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/firearms-images-products-446l.jpg

http://www.firearmstalk.com/forums/attachments/f18/361d1258750728-winchester-marine-shtgn2.jpg

Anyway, the 2nd guy that went into the store before me but after the guy selling the guns asks if he's there to sell them in which he responds "yeah." The dealer makes an offer ($200 on the shotgun, and $300 for the Mini Ruger 14) and the guy says he'll pay him $350 for the Mini Ruger 14. After that, the first employee came back to help me with what I was there for. All of a sudden, you hear "Are you guys together?" They tell him they're not together, and the dealer just goes off with a "You know what, I'm just going to have to ask you to leave. Sorry."

What?! Now I understand where the guy was coming from, in the sense that he could be trying to boost the price but c'mon. If that's what they're trying to do, then wouldn't you just let it go? You clearly didn't want it.

And aside from that whole ordeal, I'm trying to buy 5.56 for my new AR which took 5.56 and .223 that I'd gotten somewhere else. I ask for 6 boxes of Winchester 5.56, and he comes back with 3 boxes of that, and 3 of Brown Bear .223 trying to "convince" me that they're the same thing. I tell him respectfully that I'd appreciate just the 5.56 and he has the nerve to get an attitude. "Listen, they're the same thing. It'll work, I promise."

Now if I would have had a .223 barrel in my AR-15 and no knowledge of the difference in the rounds, I'd probably have no hands to type this.

</rant over> I'm not sure, but I don't think I'll be going back to this place and it sucks because they have the lowest prices around. Maybe I'm over reacting?

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Myles
March 20, 2010, 02:15 PM
I'd say the dealer was correct on both calls.

Arkansas Paul
March 20, 2010, 02:31 PM
If I were the dealer, I wouldn't put up with that in my store either.
I may have just told the guy who kept offering more to leave and not the one trying to sell the guns. It was bad manners and etiquette on his part for sure. There's just some things you don't do. It was an insult to the shop owners.
Now if they couldn't come to an agreement and the guy left, then by all means meet him out in the parking lot and try to get yourself a deal, but don't try and start a bidding war in front of the guy. I'd have kicked someone out too.
But hey, maybe that's why I'm not a business owner.

mnrivrat
March 20, 2010, 02:34 PM
Only a jerk gets between a dealer and a customer transaction in the dealers store. The dealer would have every right to ask a jerk to leave .

I have yet to see any .556 rifle damaged by shooting .223 in it , nor have I seen one that would not function just fine using it. The difference is minimul , but if it is an issue for you, than certainly stick with what you are comfortable with.

Mags
March 20, 2010, 02:38 PM
Now if I would have had a .223 barrel in my AR-15 and no knowledge of the difference in the rounds, I'd probably have no hands to type this.
WHAT A LOAD OF CRAP! I have never seen an AR damaged from 5.56 in a 223 chamber or even seen a pic on the net of damage. Now in tight bolt guns in 223 there might be damage.

52grain
March 20, 2010, 03:00 PM
SAAMI specifically says NOT to fire 5.56 in a .223. To me it is irresponsible for a dealer to try to sell them as the same thing unless he knows exactly what gun it is going in.

http://www.saami.org/specifications_and_information/publications/download/SAAMI_ITEM_211-Unsafe_Arms_and_Ammunition_Combinations.pdf

Mags
March 20, 2010, 03:06 PM
SAAMI this SAAMI that. I have seen that a hundred times but it means nothing in the real world. Show me a damaged AR form shooting 556 in a 223 chamber. I wonder how many thousands of times a day 5.56 is put in a 223 chamber without and negative impact on the gun?

NMGonzo
March 20, 2010, 03:17 PM
I would have offered 300 for the marine shotgun.

Hold My Own
March 20, 2010, 04:12 PM
Mags
WHAT A LOAD OF CRAP! I have never seen an AR damaged from 5.56 in a 223 chamber or even seen a pic on the net of damage. Now in tight bolt guns in 223 there might be damage.

Mags
SAAMI this SAAMI that. I have seen that a hundred times but it means nothing in the real world. Show me a damaged AR form shooting 556 in a 223 chamber. I wonder how many thousands of times a day 5.56 is put in a 223 chamber without and negative impact on the gun?

Of all the AR's I've seen in .223, it's says to not shoot 5.56 through them. That's why I went with the 5.56 in the first place. If you could show me something that says otherwise, then I'll be happy to take your word for it.

mnrivrat
I have yet to see any .556 rifle damaged by shooting .223 in it , nor have I seen one that would not function just fine using it. The difference is minimul , but if it is an issue for you, than certainly stick with what you are comfortable with.

It's not that I'm comfortable or uncomfortable with it. It's just stated that you shouldn't so I don't.

klineia
SAAMI specifically says NOT to fire 5.56 in a .223. To me it is irresponsible for a dealer to try to sell them as the same thing unless he knows exactly what gun it is going in.

http://www.saami.org/specifications_...mbinations.pdf

That was my problem with it too. There's no way he knew what gun it was going in so it raised an eyebrow when he told me it was the "same thing." That's why I just asked if I could specifically have the 5.56, and have that be the end of it.

nofishbob
March 20, 2010, 05:19 PM
I thought the SAAMI warning was 5.56 in a .223.

The OP is concerned about .223 in a 5.56.

They use the same bullets, and the .223 is a lower pressure round.

Always buy what you're comfortable with, but worrying about .223 in a 5.56 chamber is probably not something most people would do.

Bob

murdoc rose
March 20, 2010, 05:40 PM
yea dealers don't like that at all and I understand why, If your the guy bidding try to talk to the guy more privately and if he agrees go outside.

bubba15301
March 20, 2010, 05:45 PM
.223 will work fine in a 5.56

Hold My Own
March 20, 2010, 05:54 PM
nofishbobI thought the SAAMI warning was 5.56 in a .223.

The OP is concerned about .223 in a 5.56.

They use the same bullets, and the .223 is a lower pressure round.

Always buy what you're comfortable with, but worrying about .223 in a 5.56 chamber is probably not something most people would do.


I wasn't worried about firing a .223 through the 5.56. I was just a little thrown off since I was buying 5.56 and he was trying to sell me .223 and trying to tell me that they were the same thing without knowing what type of firearm I was going to fire them through. Why couldn't he just give all 5.56 like I asked for?

Vonderek
March 20, 2010, 05:54 PM
The OP wanted brass cased Winchester 5.56 and the clerk was trying to sell him steel cased Brown Bear .223. Sorry but it's not the same thing. If he wants the Winchester why should he buy any of the Brown Bear? Let someone else who thinks it's all the same buy the Brown Bear.

nofishbob
March 20, 2010, 06:23 PM
Like I said, everyone, including the OP should buy what they really want to buy.

I did not try to say that the OP should accept the Wolf steel cased ammo that the clerk was hawking, only that it was generally considered safe to fire .223 ammo in a 5.56 rifle.

I got the impression that safety was a concern when the OP wrote:

".....I'd probably have no hands to type this."

If I got the wrong idea, I apologize.

Bob

jimmyraythomason
March 20, 2010, 06:42 PM
I agree with the dealer on both counts.

wishin
March 20, 2010, 10:28 PM
Hold My Own, the issue if using 5.56 in a .223 chamber has been argued here ad nauseam. You're right, as are the people that hold the opposing view. There is a very remote possibility of a problem occuring, but the probabilty is pretty slim. If the ammo manufacturers felt it was real problem, their lawyers would more than likely have them imprint a disclaimer on each and every 5.56mm cartridge (even if it would be too small to read:uhoh:).

basicblur
March 20, 2010, 10:42 PM
Federal's take on the 223 vs 556 in PDF. (http://le.atk.com/pdf/223VS556.pdf)

And I vote the dealer being right on both counts.
Ain't nobody ever accused me of being well-mannered, but sounds to me the customers were pretty damn rude.

tkopp
March 20, 2010, 10:56 PM
I run a pawn shop. Not a swap meet. If you want to make a deal, I suggest a swap meet or a gun show. Any transaction that happens in the store should make the store money, else the store goes out of business. Then you'll *have* to sell your guns yourself without the convenience of an always-buying shop nearby that, coincidentally, will also supply ammunition and carry a wide inventory of shiny new-to-you toys.

I'm not the counter monkey in the story, but I completely get where he's coming from.

NG VI
March 20, 2010, 11:19 PM
That marine shotgun is beautiful.

Bubba613
March 20, 2010, 11:34 PM
The only problem I see is the dealer was too nice. I would have been much more colorful.
and the OP is wrong about the .223. If he wanted only brass cased that would be a different matter.

ny32182
March 20, 2010, 11:40 PM
The external cartridge dimensions of .223 and 5.56 are the same, so either will chamber in either chamber. The 5.56 chamber spec dimensions are slightly larger than .223 dimensions to aid chambering in a dirty gun. Also the pressure spec for 5.56 is slightly higher over .223. However, the AR action is plenty strong enough to handle either. The statement ".223 ammo is identical to 5.56 ammo" is therefore not strictly true, but a safety issue... a bit of a stretch IMO. If your .223 gun is weak enough to blow up shooting 5.56, you don't want to shoot it at all, since it is just a matter of time until you get a hot .223 round... they are not that different.

As far as the wheeling and dealing... well, that is why I don't sell guns to gun shops, or trade in cars to car dealers, etc. It is very easy to beat what a dealer will offer in a private transaction, even if you have minimal patience. It is bad etiquette to make an offer in that exact situation, yes, but not every newbie is going to know that or think about it when his eyes light up with the potential of a "great deal" in front of him. I've seen people sell guns for some asinine prices in my favorite shop, and I would have liked to make an offer, but I value my relationship with that dealer, so I don't.

Logan5
March 21, 2010, 12:17 AM
The offering on the Mini seems rude to me, but I'd be annoyed by the ammo thing as well. I like to walk into a store with money, and exchange it for exactly the goods I'm looking for, which I will describe with reasonable exactitude, in plain english. If I want Russian .223, I will ask for it and not "6 boxes of Winchester 5.56."
If you asked for Glaser Safety Slugs and the clerk brought you some Remington Golden Sabers and some Speer Gold Dots, would you be annoyed? If someone is going to tell me it don't matter because it's all the same, it better be Joan Jett.

Arkansas Paul
March 21, 2010, 12:38 AM
I'm not as educated on the subject of the 5.56 vs .223, having not owned one. However, nothing annoys me more than asking for one thing and having a salesman try to steer me in a different direction. If I ask his opinion, fine, but if I ask for something in particular, just tell me whether you have it or not. I'm asking for a reason.

Zoidberg523
March 21, 2010, 12:57 AM
I love how everyone is jumping down the OPs throat as if he were concerned about firing the 223 through his rifle. He was just educating a dealer on the differences - a dealer that seamed not to care. Aside from that: If the OP wanted 5.56, that's what he ought to get from the dealer - not 223.

I can understand where the other shop assistant was coming from (as it regards the gentleman's offer on the other man's rifle), though he should maybe have been a little less curt. After all, it is a customer: If you allow customers to buy guns from other customers instead of you, then you will indeed go broke. However, you will also go broke if you are rude to other customers. Who is to say that, had the shop assistant politely pointed out that they cannot have that kind of transaction in the store, that the other gentleman wouldn't have spent that same money on one of the dealers guns? He was obviously in the mood to buy a new firearm... Just a thought.

zorro45
March 21, 2010, 01:13 AM
Gun dealers like all other humans vary in their degree of courtesy and manners, as do their employees. My own gun dealer is always fair, courteous, informative, and his employees are as well. They are also safety conscious. No wonder he has enlarged his shop twice since I have known him, and many of the other local dealers are often in their small, empty shops alone, with their grumpy helpers. I wonder why?

Balrog
March 21, 2010, 01:18 AM
Well this is certainly a stupid thread.

The gun dealer was right on both counts.

Zoidberg523
March 21, 2010, 01:27 AM
Well this is certainly a stupid thread.

Fortunately, your opinion is just that. You certainly don't have discount the ideas of every other poster by simply saying that it is "stupid". :rolleyes:

twofifty
March 21, 2010, 01:50 AM
quote: "</rant over> I'm not sure, but I don't think I'll be going back to this place and it sucks because they have the lowest prices around. Maybe I'm over reacting?"

This was not as well handled as it could have been by the dealer, but I understand his wanting Mr. Buttinski to leave.

You said this dealer has "the lowest prices around"...and now you know one of the reasons. He's got to buy cheap, or there's no margin in it when he turns them around at the 'lowest prices around'.

chiggerbyt
March 21, 2010, 05:39 AM
The customer making the offer should have let the gun store and seller make their own agreement. After all, the seller came to the gunstore to sell his items not auction them off. The gun store isn't running a free gunshow or swap meet either. After the store has purchased the item for the agreed on price and the seller has left, then the other customer could have asked the store clerk to make an offer for the newly aquired items. He also could wait and see what the new price would be on the used items and go from there. As the OP said the gunstore has some of the lowest prices around. Just how I see it on that part.
As to the other issue of .223 VS 5.56. If the OP tells the gun store clerk he prefers to stick with 5.56 then it should be without further influence by the clerk to go with something else. The only exception would be if the customer was going to put something dangerous/incorret in their rifle thru lack of knowledge. How I see it on part 2.

SMMAssociates
March 21, 2010, 06:11 AM
My favorite dealer will do the FFL paperwork (not really a bad idea if you don't know the other guy) on deals like that, but prefers you make them "elsewhere" and just come in for the paperwork. $30-ish, I think....

I once missed a beautiful J-Frame that a gal brought in for a quote. Her husband had passed on, and she didn't want it.... I'm standing there thinking "should I chime in" and decided that I shouldn't. Then she left, and I didn't think to follow her outside. Oooops....

I told the dealer later, and he said "thanks for thinking of me", meaning that (other than not chasing the gal :)) he appreciated me not getting into a bidding war....

Sidestepped one the other day - a guy was trying to buy a KelTec P3AT v.s. the similar Ruger. I'm not happy with Ruger for cloning the thing, but mostly felt that this guy wasn't up to the smithing that my P3 needed. Bit my tongue.... :) (Just an IMHO here....)

I can't comment on the .223 v.s. 5.56 thing.... I do handguns :). My only long gun is a really cheap .22. Someday....

Regards,

Jaybird78
March 21, 2010, 06:59 AM
My $.02

.223 in 5.56= works
5.56 in .223= rolling the dice

As far as the transaction goes. It was extremely rude to over bid in the dealers store. The dealer has every right to have someone leave for any reason. However what happened isn't illegal, my boss always says don't take in personal.....it's just business. Yes my boss can be an ass.

What if you had went to meet a seller at a parking lot to purchase a firearm, car, etc. and some other random guy overhears your conversation and starts in on bidding? How would you react? Illegal? NO VERY RUDE? YES

Bubba613
March 21, 2010, 09:06 AM
I like to walk into a store with money, and exchange it for exactly the goods I'm looking for, which I will describe with reasonable exactitude, in plain english. If I want Russian .223, I will ask for it and not "6 boxes of Winchester 5.56."
That's fine but not everybody is you.
You would not imagine how many times people walk in wanting one thing and it's wrong. I have sold plenty of .38spc only to have the customer come back and tell me it won't fit in his gun, which is a topbreak .38S&W. Or someone wants .25acp and when I hand him a box marked 6.35 Browning tells me it isn't what he wants.

Ian
March 21, 2010, 09:49 AM
I watched a guy come into a shop once with some guns to sell, and get some really low offers from the clerk (which I understand). I really wanted one of the pieces, but I waited until the guy turned down the shop offer and spoke to him outside as he was leaving. Got myself a pretty good deal, and the guy got more money than the shop had offered.

Hunt480
March 21, 2010, 10:16 AM
The dealer may have been right about the guys selling the guns...
but a dealer should never try to force a sell on a customer about anything, they always come across as a prick when they do let you know they know more than you "the customer". We have all been there with a dealer trying to sell you something that is just as good. A customer wants what a customer wants the dealer should just say we don't have what you want today but we can order for you if you would like and leave it at that. Customer service is not in the bloodline of a lot of dealers I've noticed especially at gun shows but thats another thread...

mnrivrat
March 21, 2010, 03:24 PM
If your standing close enough to be fixed on, and over hearing a transaction bewteen two other folks, you have your nose in business that doesn't concern you.

If your intent is to learn enough from being nosy to interject yourself into the transaction then, you are circling like a scavanger buzzard.

If you try to actualy make a move into the tranaction , then you are a jerk .

Following people out of the store isn't much better, as often times they will think a deal over and return. The dealer has all the investment into the store that brought the customer in to do business , other customers have no right to attempt to use that store to conduct their own business dealings.

And - NO , I do not own a store , I simple have a sense of self control when it comes to wanting something . I don't believe I have to be a jerk to come out OK , and I don't hang around the counter like a buzzard trying to sneak into a transaction to get something for myself.

Elvishead
March 21, 2010, 04:11 PM
The OP wanted brass cased Winchester 5.56 and the clerk was trying to sell him steel cased Brown Bear .223. Sorry but it's not the same thing. If he wants the Winchester why should he buy any of the Brown Bear? Let someone else who thinks it's all the same buy the Brown Bear.

Yep, I agree!

basicblur
March 21, 2010, 04:14 PM
When I said I agreed with the dealer on "both" counts, I was thinking both guns?
AFA the ammo-I'm not familiar with Brown Bear (not sold in my neck o' the woods), but if it's steel case it ain't the same (226 vs 553 aside). I don't shoot any steel case ammo-seen way too many folks show up at the shop with stuck cases.

So...the dealer was right over the gun deal-not so much over the ammo?

Robson4506
March 23, 2010, 08:04 AM
We have this pawn shop here that has a guy that hangs around in there all the time and offers almost new prices on used guns.

I won't sell to him personally because I think he is reselling them to questionable buyers or he wouldn't offer 300 dollars for a 90% shotgun that goes for 275 new, or 600 for an 80% glock 19 you can order here new for less than that.

Anyhow to the original question. I think the dealer just got flustered and reacted. He didn't know if this was a shill the guy brought along with him, OR the guy was just trying to undercut his business, and either way, maybe both ideas at the same time hit him and he just lashed out.

benEzra
March 23, 2010, 08:12 AM
Of all the AR's I've seen in .223, it's says to not shoot 5.56 through them. That's why I went with the 5.56 in the first place. If you could show me something that says otherwise, then I'll be happy to take your word for it.
That caveat applies only to firing 5.56x45mm spec ammunition in a tight .223 chamber, not the other way around. As far as the rifle is concerned, if it has a 5.56x45mm chamber, then .223 and 5.56x45 are indeed completely interchangeable; it's only a problem if the rifle is specifically chambered in .223, and there actually a whole lot of those around. Most AR's have a 5.56 chamber, as does the Ruger mini-14 (even though it is rollmarked ".223 Remington" on the receiver, the dimensions are 5.56x45, not .223).

As far as steel case vs. brass case, that's fine, but I wouldn't get mad at the dealer or treat him as ignorant because he gave you what you wanted while showing you additional options to consider. A simple "no thanks, I prefer brass case" would work in that case.

GMFWoodchuck
March 23, 2010, 08:28 AM
Same thing or not (they're not quite the same from a techical standpoint any 5.56 will eager accept .223 ammo. The difference is in the fact that 5.56 guns will accept longer bullets than what a 223 will.) however as a customer if I want 5.56 ammo I want 5.56 ammo. They're not the same thing. If your gun shoots Hornady ammo and you ask for it would you accept Remington ammo.?No. Same difference. What the dealer should have said was: We only have the 3 boxes, but we also have these. And been polite about it.

The bidding thing well...It was rude on both parties.

It sounds like they're not the most polite people in the world. I would go somewhere else to and get better service even if it cost more money. I get better service than that from Gander Mountain and they're just run of the mill people hired off the street making not much more than minimum wage.

TX1911fan
March 23, 2010, 09:41 AM
Ever consider that he didn't have 6 boxes, so he brought out what he had, hoping to please his customer? If he had 6 boxes, why wouldn't he just sell them to you? I think he was trying to be helpful and got offended when you insulted him.

On the gun deal, I can understand those who say the dealer was right, and technically he was within his rights to do what he did. But why does it matter? He made his offer, if someone can beat that offer, who cares? Presumably, if the offer was too low for the seller, the dealer could either let the gun go or offer more. Which is what he still can do. Or are you saying he has a "right" to lowball someone because they are uninformed as to their options? I visit a lot of pawnshops just to see if there are any good deals, and there never are! These guys are offering rough guns for almost new prices, which I KNOW they did not pay, so they are trying to make a very good deal both ways, on naive buyers and desperate sellers. If it's ok for them to take advantage, why not the other way around? If I were in a store and an old lady came in with a very valuable gun but was clearly uninformed and the dealer tried to take advantage, I would feel like a jerk to NOT jump in and help her out.

bababooey32
March 23, 2010, 10:21 AM
Or are you saying he has a "right" to lowball someone because they are uninformed as to their options?

I think the point is that the dealer has a right to limit the business that is transacted in his store to HIS BUSINESS. Like someone else said, if you want to bid on guns, go to an auction or a gun show, but don't hover in MY establishment and try to pick-off people that came here to do business with me. Poor form at best, 100% jerk at worst. And, oh by the way, yes, he does have a right to lowball anyone that comes in the doors, just as they have a right to say "no" and walk back out.

If I were in a store and an old lady came in with a very valuable gun but was clearly uninformed and the dealer tried to take advantage, I would feel like a jerk to NOT jump in and help her out.


You would feel like a jerk for not butting into someone else's business? My how times have changed. The self-important among us surely know better what is good for others. Without knowing the situation, inserting oneself into someone else's business dealings is rude, pretentious and arrogant. If I were the little old lady, I'd probably slap you in the face and kick you in the shins.

As for the ammo question, shooting .223 in a 5.56 chamber is not a problem at all. The OP's contention that he could have "blown his hands off" doing so is 100% incorrect and without basis. That is what has caused the furor here. OP never indicated that he was after brass vs. steel, but rather he was concerned about his safety - which is misplaced concern.

Shooting 5.56 in a .223 chamber is potentially problematic, and I would choose to avoid doing so.

jonmerritt
March 23, 2010, 10:30 AM
The customer wanted a certain product, that is all there is to it.

rocky branch
March 23, 2010, 02:43 PM
No opinion on the ammo, but the guy trying to butt in on the deal inside the store needed a vertical buttstroke.
Maybe with hold the slash, but he was out of line.

Zoidberg523
March 24, 2010, 01:03 AM
The self-important among us surely know better what is good for others.

No offense, and I agree with other information in your post, but - you yourself seem to be pretty hypocritical there.

As far as the comment that you were commenting on: There are, to me, extenuating circumstances (gun dealer in question, quality of firearms offered, quality of customer service, etc.). For instance, if I went into a gun shop (especially one of the seedy little places commonly found around here) and saw an elderly woman trying to sell off her deceased husbands firearms (possibly to pay bills/medical expenses not covered by her [non-existant?] social security), and some swindler of a dealer is trying to give her a pittance for some truly beautiful firearms, I am GOING to say something.

Every business owner has the right to make a living, as well as the right to make profits. They do not, however, have the right to take an unknowing customer for all that they are worth, especially when the dealer in question can very well guess what that will mean for the person that they are screwing. That sir, is not right. :(

It is called common decency, and today's world is sorely lacking in it.

SMMAssociates
March 24, 2010, 03:02 AM
Zoidberg:

In the incident I mentioned above, the dealer offered the gal (same sort of "deceased husband" thing, but she'd become a Nun and, well, wasn't supposed to have the gun at all) a percentage less than retail. He has to cover all kinds of costs. For a round number, say $50 off what he probably could sell it for. I'd have gone that extra $50 without crying too much :). IAC, this guy's trustworthy. He'll also take "consignment" - I'm not sure what he charges for that.

About dealing in the parking lot.... IMHO, once the potential seller has left the store, it's fair game.... The seller is either considering the quote, or has decided to go someplace else. If I step up and offer $50 more (again, just a round number), that was the dealer's profit, but he doesn't have to chance keeping it in inventory for a while, among other things. In this instance, he risked about $20 if I tried....

(Guess the point is "how long do you wait"? The location is really irrelevant, IMO.)

How would he like it? He about told me to "go outside".... We are friends, but it's still a business issue. I've helped him make a few sales, brought in customers, etc. I expect to be treated well, and have been....

(In the case I mentioned, somebody approaching this gal in the parking lot probably would have been told to take a hike. She seemed very skittish about the whole thing. I'm sure she saw me in the store, though. I'm kinda hard to miss :D....)

Short answer: Take it outside, and keep your trap shut unless the dealer's really doing a number on the seller....

Regards,

natman
March 24, 2010, 03:24 AM
The guns for sale - the second guy was WAY out of line. While the guns are under the dealer's roof, any business regarding them is the dealer's. Period. It's a gun store, not a gun show. The dealer was completely justified in asking him to leave and was considerably more polite than was strictly necessary.

The ammo - the dealer only had 3 boxes of what you wanted, so he offered a substitute. If you don't care for it, don't buy it. No reason to take offense.

Zoidberg523
March 24, 2010, 04:18 AM
In the incident I mentioned above...

Lol - I wasn't directly talking about the dealer in your story, but was just speaking in a general/hypothetical way.

SMMAssociates
March 24, 2010, 04:25 AM
Zoidberg:

I knew that :)....

Just a bad habit to point a reply to the last guy on the page if there's nothing specific elsewhere....

Gotta quit doing that....

The dealer, btw, is a little different.... I brought Sammy in one afternoon (the gals wanted to see him), and he wet all over the counter.... The owner immediately hollered "GET THAT DARN DOG OUT OF MY STORE!". Next thing I know, he's got Sammy's leash and is giving him a tour of the store....

I got him one day, btw. I was having some problems with a gun, and he walked around the corner saying something like "well, you wouldn't have those problems if you bought decent ammunition".... I told him that "I would, if he'd start selling it." :D (Bet that cost me 10% for a while....)

Regards,

scythefwd
March 24, 2010, 04:31 AM
Couple of questions. Everyone here is saying the dealer has the right to kick someone out for butting in to a transaction. Can't agree more.

Does the dealer have the right to assume all transactions are his to make?
Does the seller realize she can sell that gun in other ways besides to a dealer?

I think these matter.
Question 1. I personally think the dealer has the right to that assumption.

Question 2. That changes things a bit. If that person is looking to get what they can for the guns, you are doing a disservice to the seller if you don't make the offer. Is it rude... yes, but if the seller is hoping to sell in any legal method, her purpose of coming to the store is to get fair market value, which a dealer will not offer if they wish to make a profit. The seller is looking to get an offer, regardless of who it comes from and may believe that is what a gun store is... a place where guns are sold. We, as a forum, generally suggest gaining as much knowledge as possible. Why does this change when the lat/lon does? Do we let the dealer make a buy for less than what the person could get fair market on a gun, which I see as inconsiderate to the seller who may be ignorant of the value... or do we make an offer and make the dealer pay what the gun is worth, which is inconsiderate of the dealer and his costs of doing business. In this situation, since you have already listened in, it is impossible not to be inconsiderate to someone. One of the people just won't be as likely to be aware of it.

SMMAssociates
March 24, 2010, 05:04 AM
scythefwd:

IMHO, within the storefront, yes, the dealer has the right to be a party to all transactions. Bloomie's gang may find a way to nail him otherwise. Once you get out on the street, though (including the parking lot), it's another story. Assuming that the dealer put the seller and buyer "in touch" would be difficult to prove.

The dealer is in business to make a profit. If he buys a gun from "Person A" on Monday for $100, and sells it to "Person B" on the following Monday, he's got the thing on inventory for a week. That could be a cost, and he may be losing interest on that $100 for the time it's not in the bank or otherwise in something "constructive", like a case of .45's or whatever. (Stuff that'll turn over faster.)

So, he has to figure those costs and other paperwork issues, 'cause he'll have to do the FFL paperwork - i.e., 4473 and NICS, etc. Regardless of direct cost in fees, if any, he's still paying the counterguys, and may be holding up - or even killing - another transaction while trying to move the gun out.

This ain't peas & carrots - the dealer has to take a significant piece of the action or he's better off to automatically refuse these deals, or at least just take consignment sales, where the final payment to the gun owner is a fixed percentage of the sale amount.

The situation is the same as used cars, although the hit for depreciation isn't quite as nasty in some cases. The car dealer has to do some work, and some paperwork to resell a car he takes in, even if he sends it to the auction. What we have here is more or less exactly the same, other than the Federal paperwork & NICS....

Guess the whole point is that when you work with a dealer he MUST buy at wholesale and sell at retail. Otherwise, every sale is a loss, and the doors close....

Where the seller has to beware is when the dealer is shady enough to try to buy a gun from the seller for $50 and turn it around for $250.... (Or more!)

Still, unless you never plan on going back, you really want to do that outside.... And, IMHO, if the difference is about $50, you probably should keep your mouth shut - that's probably the dealer's margin....

Regards,

Bubba613
March 24, 2010, 07:51 AM
Scythefwd,
Horse-hockey. The obligation of other patrons is shut up and let the dealer do his job.
What is "fair market value" for any gun? It is what someone is willing to pay. What is someone willing to pay today for my gun? How much is it worth if I know the check is good? How much is it worth if I know the gun is not being sold to a prohibited person? How much is it worth if I am building a relationship with a dealer?
All these things have value. I had a fellow in with some gun or other that I really didnt want. I made a very low ball offer. I told him it was. I told him he could get more money selling it at a show or to friends or whatever. I told him I didnt mind if he didnt take the offer.
He thanked me and left. Two minutes later he was back and I was writing him a check. Why? I dunno. Maybe he needed the money in the next two hours. Maybe he didnt want to hassle with paying entry fee to a gun show, etc. All kinds of reasons.
But positing that the other patrons have some kind of duty to help put the dealer in a worse position in his own store won't wash.

earlthegoat2
March 24, 2010, 09:48 AM
5.56 and 223 aside. There is enough difference in Winchester and Brown Bear ammo to justify not wanting the Brown Bear.

scythefwd
March 25, 2010, 01:21 AM
bubba613, I didn't say they had to put the dealer in a worse position. I said that they were obligated to keep the seller from getting taken all the way to the bank. I wouldn't say anything about 50-75 difference in value/offer. But if the dealer offered 200 on a mint python I'd have to step up and say something.... that gun is worth a whole lot more. Besides, if I saw a dealer taking advantage of someones ignorance like that I would place my items on the counter, inform the dealer that I was leaving and that he could expect neither my business nor my referrals in the future. There are only 5 stores in the area that even sell firearms that I am aware of. Only 2 I would use if I had my choice, and I could and would drop all business from them in a heartbeat if I caught them ripping people off.

Zoidberg523
March 25, 2010, 01:53 AM
What is "fair market value" for any gun? It is what someone is willing to pay.

So, is it the same for other products and services? If I offered you $500 for your home, is that "fair market value" just because that is what I am willing to pay?

"Fair Market Value" involves the market, which I daresay means more than one sheister trying to swindle an uneducated someone out of their money.

Also, the term we are looking for here is "Fair Value" (Fair Market Value generally describes real-estate).

Fair Value - A valuation, in accordance with standard methodology, that is reasonable to all parties involved in a transaction in light of all pre-existing conditions and circumstances.

EDIT to add -

Besides, if I saw a dealer taking advantage of someones ignorance like that I would place my items on the counter, inform the dealer that I was leaving and that he could expect neither my business nor my referrals in the future.

I agree. I will not hand over my hard earned money to a dishonest/untrustworthy person when there are plenty of honest people out there with honest businesses. Making a profit is expected from a business, and there is nothing wrong with it. However, cheating someone because they did not know any better is no different than watching someone drop money and then waiting until they leave to pick it up instead of telling them - an good, honest person just doesn't do that, and I, for one, have more class than that (something that I don't get to say often!).

Bubba613
March 25, 2010, 06:52 AM
I guess it takes a village to sell a gun.

bababooey32
March 25, 2010, 09:20 AM
you yourself seem to be pretty hypocritical there.


Sorry, but nowhere have I presumed to know what is best for others. The entire point of my post was precisely the opposite - to stay OUT of other perople's business dealings...especially under a dealer's roof!

They do not, however, have the right to take an unknowing customer for all that they are worth, especially when the dealer in question can very well guess what that will mean for the person that they are screwing. That sir, is not right.

Well, since you are talking about rights, yes he does have that right. Is it right (correct/moral/ethical)? No. But he has the right to do it. Besides, who's to say the little old lady is "unknowing"? Sometimes the urgency of a transaction trumps profit. In other words, some people would rather get $10 right now, then wait (be patient) to get $12. Just a matter or priorities.

My comment above is meant to reflect that, while perhaps well-meaning, we can insert ourselves into situations where we don't have all the necessary information. In my book, doing so is rude.

So is calling someone hypocritical, by the way.

However, cheating someone because they did not know any better is no different than watching someone drop money and then waiting until they leave to pick it up instead of telling them

I don't quite agree. Each party to a transaction is responsible for their own information gathering. As a seller, I am not responsible for educatiing you on all the possible valuations for my products. As long as I do not misrepresent by product (as the seller) or my offer (as the buyer), the transaction is valid. It may be poor form to lowball an obviously uninformed counterparty (I'm not even sure about that), but it is certainly not the same as stealing - where one party to the "transaction" is an unwilling participant in the "transaction".

Finally, I will submit that anyone who is selling an item that does not do even a small amount of research to figure out a ballpark value, in some ways, deserves to get "taken". It's not that hard and doesn't require any initimate knowledge of what you are selling to be able to triangulate an approximate starting point for selling the item...sorry.

jimmyraythomason
March 25, 2010, 10:09 AM
stay OUT of other people's business dealings...especially under a dealer's roof!

well said!

HGUNHNTR
March 25, 2010, 11:09 AM
That is the dealers place of business, its not an open bazaar for folks off of the street to conduct business. I have booted guys out of the store where I worked for the same thing.

BTW fairness is relative and not subject to your opinion.

DasFriek
March 25, 2010, 10:46 PM
Well i can say ive been slowly learning about this exact thing and it will affect how i act in the future.
Im rather new, Less than a year back into guns after 20 years of being away. And not long after i restarted i caught the middle of a conversation of someone selling a .22lr pistol to a dealer. They wouldn't give what he wanted, But no one said NO to any deals.
I stepped up and asked what he was asking and told him id buy it, The clerk kindly asked we go outside and do any dealings.

Five months later i was at another shop looking for a .17HMR which isn't an easy find used in my town and i was talking with the owner and said i may make an offer after they appraise it and give him a price. During that time i was buying a gun myself and the salesman who was very cool and i had bought from before said "Please be careful in how you do that, As by store policy im supposed to kick both of you out of the store"
As i was paying for my gun still i told him i had a feeling the guy wouldn't get an offer he wanted as i asked him myself what he expected, And that when he turned the stores offer down i may discuss a deal with him at that time. Outside of course.

I did wait around until he received an offer of $75 for a stainless Savage 93 .17hmr but said he would take $150 from me. After some thought and realizing i just spent over $400 for the gun i bought i felt it best to not low ball the guy seeing what money i had left.

But from now on i wont be talking to people selling their weapons in a gun store. Sure i feel im helping them get more money and myself saving some. But ticking off owners and employees isn't my goal either and id rather miss a deal than do that.

So if anything this thread did make at least 1 person see they need to mind their own business while inside someone else's.

If its a gun i want badly ill wait until the guy says no and leaves and try and catch him in the parking lot, But seeing how i think that can spook people i think i most likely would not do that either.

medalguy
March 26, 2010, 12:45 AM
I was in a pawn shop recently and something similar happened. A man walked in with a gun wanting to sell it outright. I was looking at their long guns and overheard the conversation which ended with them not being able to agree on a price. As the man was putting his rifle back in the case, I asked the dealer if he was going to buy it, he said no, so I asked him if he minded if I made an offer on the gun. He said go ahead so we did make a deal on the rifle. The dealer was not upset with me and no one was hurt. I would never offer to buy something before the dealer had had every opportunity to complete the deal, and probably should have walked outside before making this offering, but I'm in this shop fairly often and I didn't want the owner to think I was trying to do anything behind his back.

Zoidberg523
March 26, 2010, 01:18 AM
Is it right (correct/moral/ethical)? No. But he has the right to do it. Besides, who's to say the little old lady is "unknowing"? Sometimes the urgency of a transaction trumps profit. In other words, some people would rather get $10 right now, then wait (be patient) to get $12. Just a matter or priorities.

1.) That is exactly my point - that is is morally reprehensible to shaft someone.

2.) I might also add that, in a fair value (or fair market value, for that matter) situation, the value of a good or service must be determined by an unpressured and knowledgeable buyer and an unpressured, knowledgeable, and willing seller.

Finally, I will submit that anyone who is selling an item that does not do even a small amount of research to figure out a ballpark value, in some ways, deserves to get "taken". It's not that hard and doesn't require any initimate knowledge of what you are selling to be able to triangulate an approximate starting point for selling the item...sorry.

Finding even a basic ballpark estimate on something like a firearm (a market in which the even the slightest factory mark [in the case of surplus rifles] can mean hundreds of dollars in differences) can be nearly impossible for someone like a widow who does not have the internet, nor any knowledge of firearms. Aside from that, it is my experience that many elderly women [not nearly all] are entirely too trusting when it comes to advertisements, stores, and anything retail related.

My point here was not to start an argument, and I do not wish to be part of one: I come to the High Road for enlightened discussions on firearms. Incidentally, it does not seem very High Road to "lowball" (your own words here) everyone that you can to make a buck, even if you know (as you said) that is ethically and morally wrong.

Also:

BTW fairness is relative and not subject to your opinion.

Nor yours - yet we both present one. ;)

Bubba613
March 26, 2010, 04:43 AM
You have no idea whether the seller is knowledgeable or un-pressured. Nor is it any of your responsibility to find out,nor is it any of your business in the first place. IT is strictly between the buyer and seller.
In TN such behavior is in fact illegal.

Zoidberg523
March 26, 2010, 06:53 AM
You have no idea whether the seller is knowledgeable or un-pressured.

Nor do you.

Nor is it any of your responsibility to find out

This conversation is under the premise that I just happened to hear a dealer trying to lowball someone.

In TN such behavior is in fact illegal.

This could happen anywhere, so that factoid, while interesting, isn't truly relevant.

61chalk
March 26, 2010, 07:37 AM
I read the first page...an now posting so if I repeat someone...sorry
The OP asked for 6 boxes of the same ammo,Winchester. When I sight
in a rifle, I like using the same kind of ammo...go sight that AR in at 300
meters with Winchester....then shoot another brand of ammo an see if
your rounds are hitting in the same place. Its not always a question of
buying ammo to spray with. The OP asked for the same ammo, an the dealer
only had 3 boxes of it an tried selling something the OP didn't want.
Dealer gets a f grade from me.

jimmyraythomason
March 26, 2010, 07:52 AM
tried selling something the OP didn't want.
The rub was not that the OP didn't want the .223 ammo,it is that he thought it was unsafe to shoot in his 5.56 chamber.

Bubba613
March 26, 2010, 08:45 AM
It isn't my responsibility as a dealer to survey market conditions and insure the seller gets fair market price. It is my responsibility to stay in business and make money.
Bottom line: interfering with a deal on the dealer's premises is low class possibly illegal behavior that ought to earn one a stern and speedy departure from said premises.

Tully M. Pick
March 26, 2010, 09:20 AM
I'd glock-block that dealer so fast his head would spin.

PT1911
March 26, 2010, 09:31 AM
A friend of mine owns a shop and his etiquette in buying used guns is to let the owner talk. A guy comes in wanting to sell a gun.. if it is something my friend is interested in he asks how much the guy is wanting for it... More often than not, people lowball themselves... as previously stated, they want 10 dollars now more than they want 12 dollars later...If their asking too much for him to be able to price the gun fairly and make money, he makes a counter-offer....That usually leads to them leaving, checking at several other local shops and then they come back when they realize he is offering them 20% or more over the other offers.

all that said... most people screw themselves...

If someone says they want $250.00 for a Like new Remington model 7 in .260 are you really going to tell them no and offer more?

jimmyraythomason
March 26, 2010, 10:01 AM
I'd glock-block that dealer so fast his head would spin.
Oh Lord,another commando.

nofishbob
March 26, 2010, 11:18 AM
What does "Glock block" mean?

Bob

Tully M. Pick
March 26, 2010, 12:20 PM
Oh Lord,another commando.

Hey, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. If I was at that dealer and could purchase a gun for a steal under his nose, too bad for him. Doesn't sound like the guy is anybody's friend in the first place. I wouldn't be friends with the type of person to screw over little old ladies and the like, anyways. Go ahead and kick me out, but don't be surprised if I never shop there again.

You wonder why all these local places get closed down? It's not because people can save $5 on the internet.

Bubba613
March 26, 2010, 12:29 PM
Hey, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. If I was at that dealer and could purchase a gun for a steal under his nose, too bad for him.
And you'd quickly find yourself without a dealer to do business with.
That would go for your friends and relatives too.

vaupet
March 26, 2010, 12:47 PM
1) I only go to dealers I can trust
2) I like to keep I that way
3) I like them to trust me (nice on any warranty claims)
4) So I don't but in on a buy
5) If I am interested, I waith until the seller leaves the shop, then offer my betrusted dealer a 10% margin on the gun, price will still be good.
6) because I am a regular customer, he won't refuse, because he doesn't want to look greedy

case closed

peter

Tully M. Pick
March 26, 2010, 12:50 PM
And you'd quickly find yourself without a dealer to do business with.
That would go for your friends and relatives too.

Hell, I can get an FFL if I need one. Apparently your dealer doesn't need customers.

Zoidberg523
March 27, 2010, 02:16 AM
I would like to make one thing clear about my posts - I am not saying that all dealers ought to pay everyone top dollar for their guns, and I am not saying that dealer should turn down a great deal if the customer throws one his way.

What I have issues with, and what all of my comments are based upon, are dealers that are actively trying to screw unknowing customers through lowballing. The difference is subtle, yet important, and must be judged on a case by case basis.

Gouranga
March 27, 2010, 09:13 AM
are dealers that are actively trying to screw unknowing customers through lowballing

Honestly, it is the customers job to know what his stuff is worth. If I am going to the dealer (and paying him/her) to get an accurate appraisal of a weapons value than I expect it and I am paying him/her for that service. If I go to a dealer with the intent to sell, his intent is going to be to get that weapon as cheap as possible, mine is to make as much as possible. IMO, the obligation of the gun dealer is to pay me what price we agree on.

natman
March 27, 2010, 11:31 AM
What I have issues with, and what all of my comments are based upon, are dealers that are actively trying to screw unknowing customers through lowballing. The difference is subtle, yet important, and must be judged on a case by case basis.

Clearly that is not the case in the example from the OP, since the guy who saw fit to butt in made an offer within $50 of what the dealer offered.

Even if it were the case, you would be out of line to say so while in the dealer's store. You want to complain about the prices a certain dealer pays for used guns, feel free to tell your friends, post notices on the internet, whatever, but not under the dealer's own roof.

buck460XVR
March 27, 2010, 04:33 PM
I think the dealer did what any legitimate dealer would do. He tried to sell bullets that would work just fine and he gave what he thought was a price he could afford to pay for some guns that he may or may not be able to resell within a reasonable time. Unlike many of us want to believe, all gun shop owners are in the business to make money......if they don't, they aren't around very long. Iffin I remember correctly, that's the way it works in our capitalistic society. I'm thinkin' this particular owner was reasonably sharp and was able to "read" the customers in his shop that day. Whether it was a shell game the two others were trying to pull or whether the wanna-be buyer was just stupid, is irrelevant, and the owner had every right to ask them to leave.

Bubbles
March 28, 2010, 08:41 AM
What I have issues with, and what all of my comments are based upon, are dealers that are actively trying to screw unknowing customers through lowballing. The difference is subtle, yet important, and must be judged on a case by case basis.

Maybe it's just because I'm in a place with a "smaller town" feel (though we're growing), but... if we pulled that stunt, word would get around pretty fast that we'd screwed old farmer Jones's widow on the deal, and we wouldn't get any customers.

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