Why no talk of the LMT piston AR?


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browningpotato
March 21, 2010, 01:28 PM
After reading various piston AR threads, most recently the one about the ACR, I cant help but wonder why so few people mention the LMT piston gun? LMT is known for quality (Milspec and above) work yet when it comes to piston guns the same few are always mentioned LWRC, POF, SCAR, Masada, xcr.

I have an LMT piston gun and could not be happier. I have NEVER had a malfunction, it is very accurate, and costs less than almost all the others mentioned. So my question is, am I missing something? A top tier piston gun for $1600 out the door, whats not to love?

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Avenger29
March 21, 2010, 06:39 PM
Probably because it's simply overlooked. Heck, LMT as a brand is often overlooked in the AR market. When you've got dozens of manufacturers of ARs and ever increasing numbers of those makers building piston guns or kits...well, the market gets crowded.

Tully M. Pick
March 21, 2010, 07:40 PM
LMT's are terrible AR's. I can honestly say that I know what I'm talking about since I own 5 of them. I suggest no one buys them, ever. EVER!

/Shh, don't talk about LMT. The less people know, the better for those that do.

SHvar
March 22, 2010, 12:30 AM
Im sure their piston rifle is very nice, a MRP piston M4, but at almost $2054.85 not including delivery, taxes, transfer fees, etc, its expensive. I read a few articles comparing it to the SR556 and H&K 416, all 3 rifles were rated very very well, just different features offered on each that separated them.

ny32182
March 22, 2010, 11:14 AM
I've seen them out there for less than $2k.

If I were going to get a piston AR based rifle, the MRP piston is *probably* the one I would get. With its monolithic FF upper and QD barrel, it is really more of a cross between an AR and a next gen carbine, than it is strictly a piston AR, in my mind.

All the LMT gear I've ever owned has been very good, and taking the above into account, I think it is definitely more bang for the buck than LWRC or POF as well.

One downside I've heard is that with the short barrel, you cannot put a larger diameter suppressor mount on it and still have clearance to pull the piston out the front? If you can remove the barrel prior to pulling the piston I guess this is not really a complete show stopper, but it would be somewhat annoying. On my XCR for instance, I pull the barrel far less frequently than I clean it.

Also, the XCR has the full next gen feature set and comes in at or below the MRP piston cost-wise, so that is another thing I think about as well. I may end up with one someday, as it would be nice to have a next gen-like rifle with a lot of AR compatibility to it, but it is not currently way up on my wish list.

Quentin
March 22, 2010, 12:07 PM
I haven't warmed up to piston ARs so tend to gloss over them since I know I'll never buy one. But I do like LMT and expect they make a fine model that deserves recognition.

SHvar
March 22, 2010, 12:13 PM
That price came directly from their website/catelog (right before I posted by the way) for a new LMT gas piston MRP carbine. They were one manufacturer I checked before ordering my gas piston upper.
The LMT gas piston upper costs 1484.18 new.
A similar POF gas piston upper costs $1100-$1875 depending on what features you want, the POF has its NP3 coating which makes it unique, a revolutionary design in barrel nut and a full fluted (cold hammer forged heavy barrel), all but the least expensive model have a modular rail upper, and other unique features.
Sure the barrel is not so easily removed, but how often do you really remove it, or need to?
For the price get a SCAR or ACR, Ill bet the prices will be almost as low sometime in the near future.

ny32182
March 22, 2010, 12:51 PM
Here is a buy it now for 1700:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=161784233

I remember them going for right around 2k when they first came out, so I guess the prices have come down somewhat. I don't think we will ever see a SCAR near that price.

What sets the LMT apart from the LWRC, POF, etc in my mind:

-True monolithic FF upper is one solid machined piece for ultimate rigidity throughout. This design is even stronger than the strongest possible design that you can have with a regular upper; that being the forend integrated into the barrel nut and threaded into the upper.

-QD barrel allows for quick caliber changes/i.e. a greater level of modularity than you have in an upper with a more traditional barrel nut. How often will this be used; well, depends on the user of course, but for my money, there is a 100% chance that when I want to shoot some 6.8, I will get the parts for whatever modular-uppered rifle has my fancy and the parts available at the moment, rather than dropping at least twice as much on a complete upper. Currently that is only the XCR, but the SCAR is also on my wish list, and the ACR might be depending on how the street price pans out... and the LMT in question is out there as a candidate also of course.

Where the MRP piston falls short to the full blown next gen carbines (SCAR, XCR, ACR) is mostly really that it still uses the buffer tube like a standard AR15, therefore disallowing the possibility of a folding stock. Also the XCR and SCAR selectors flip only 45 degrees from safe to fire, which is a nice ergonomic improvement over a 90 degree throw IMO, but not as major an issue. The SCAR also has an ambi mag catch, and the XCR has an ambi bolt catch, which are nice improvements as well.

I'll add that the MRP also shares the same design downside present in any AR-based piston gun; that being the offset force on the carrier leading to the carrier wanting to tilt. Maybe this can be overcome long term through careful carrier redesign, but I will always consider it at least a slight negative when compared to a new action that was built from the ground up for a piston.

SHvar
March 23, 2010, 12:00 AM
Dont fall into that rumor about gas piston ARs having a problem with carrier tilt, in fact only a few single rifles with gas piston retrofit kits installed had issues, but what really caused the wear?
Ive been watching my extension tube closely, it shows absolutely no wear, if you look at the finish it catches your eye, makes you have to look closely, theres no wear.
Keep in mind I took a picture months before getting the gas piston upper, I posted after using it a few times to see what would be accused by a few people, and without fail someone says "I see wear already", guess what, the arguement ended when I told them how many months before buying the GP upper that picture was taken.
I like the SCAR and ACR, but too expensive. I like my GP AR, feels very familiar, but has the piston system, yet shoots differently.

Bartholomew Roberts
March 23, 2010, 05:40 PM
Dont fall into that rumor about gas piston ARs having a problem with carrier tilt, in fact only a few single rifles with gas piston retrofit kits installed had issues, but what really caused the wear?

I realize you have now owned a single Bushmaster gas piston rifle for almost 10 months now and have at least 400 rounds through it (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=5690618#post5690618); but do you think that is sufficient basis to declare carrier tilt a myth in all gas piston ARs?

For the record:
An SR556 owner reporting carrier tilt wear (and an LMT piston user comparing his wear to the SR556 in the same thread) (http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1215335)
POF gas piston owner reporting carrier tilt wear at 800 rounds (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1048563)
Discussion of carrier tilt in Bushmaster gas piston system (and broken op-rod to boot) (http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=15221)

I didn't include any discussion of drop-in conversions; just factory uppers.

However, if you are interested in a gas piston and concerned about carrier tilt, googling "carrier tilt" and then the brand name of the rifle you are considering will give you pretty solid feedback on which rifles have issues.

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