7.62x54r compared to Remington 35


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randommj
March 23, 2010, 01:11 AM
pros and cons of both? (specifically the Remington 35 200 gr)

Miles

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fireman 9731
March 23, 2010, 12:14 PM
In what gun and what for?

The 7.62x54R is closer to a 30-06 while the 35 Rem is closer to a 30-30.

The 35 Rem is a great woods gun when shots will be kept under 200 yards.

The 35 Rem will almost always be loaded with a good hunting bullet while good hunting bullets in the 7.62x54R may be hard to find.

All surplus 7.62x54R ammo is corrosive, but cheap.

7.62 has an operating pressure of 57,000 PSI while the 35 is around 31,000 PSI.

Maverick223
March 23, 2010, 04:38 PM
7.62x54R: Extremely inexpensive cartridge, Similar and energy to a .308Win. (significantly greater than the .35Rem.), have relatively good ballistics (fairly flat, bucks wind nicely), and are generally chambered in inexpensive firearms.

Conversely, it is also generally corrosive and good softpoint hunting cartridges are difficult to find and much more costly (but still on par with the .35Rem.). Additionally the rifles that is typically chambered for this cartridge tend to be surplus and have varying levels of quality (and accuracy), and tend to be awkward for hunting due to the difficulty of scoping the rifle, the weight, and greater perceived recoil.

.35Rem.: Slightly more capable than the .30-30 due to the larger bore diameter and increase in energy. Fairly common cartridge that is available at most gun shops (but not at Wal Mart, et al). Typically chambered for rifles that have outstanding handling characteristics (lever rifles), and are fairly affordable. The round also has fairly low recoil making it a great choice for a new deer hunter at short range.

On the other hand, the .35Rem. is a fairly low powered rifle, generally considered unsuitable for game larger than deer. It also tends to exhibit a poor trajectory partly due to the round nose soft points that are typical (Hornady LeveRevolution are a partial solution, but more costly). Ammunition is comparably expensive, but only when compared to 7.62x54R.


In conclusion I believe the Mosin is a good choice if you are looking for a rifle to plink with at the range, but a poor choice as a replacement for a hunting rifle. I believe that an inexpensive .30-06, such as the Marlin XL-7, would be a much better choice.

:)

MachIVshooter
March 23, 2010, 05:02 PM
In what gun and what for?

+1

Both have their place. We need to know what you want to do with it.

Cosmoline
March 23, 2010, 05:10 PM
They're very different. The .35 Rem is good with heavy, slow bullets and has a rep as a very effective brush buster. It's linked with the early "automatics" made by Remington and was a very popular N American hunting round in its day. Commercial ammo is limited and expensive, so handloading is something of a given for it.

7.62x54R is an early smokeless military cartridge linked with the Mosin-Nagant rifles but used in a lot of others since then. It's the .30'06 of Russia and the eastern block, though its rimmed bottle neck design is of an earlier vintage than the Mauser-based '06. There is hunting SP ammo available now varying from pretty primitive Russian made SP's to very nice and very expensive Norma rounds.

The 54R has the clear edge as a plinking round due to surplus ammo, and also has the edge for range. The .35 Rem has the edge in its handy automatic, lever and pump action platforms and the fact that almost every load you'll find is geared for hunting. Rifles in 54R are first and fore-most military weapons and aren't always favored for field use. Though I've found a 91/30 to be a fine trail rifle, others have not. And I would never argue it's handier than a levergun.

With the right bullets and loads either is good for anything in N. America. Both have done well against big hogs, bears and moose. But given a choice between hauling the Mosin afield or some classic .35 rem pump or auto, I'd go with the Remington.

randommj
March 23, 2010, 05:13 PM
I was just wanting a pure round comparison, and I think maverick223 (and cosmoline) has done that nicely, my buddy has brought in a marlin 336 in remington 35, and I was just wondering how that round compares to the mosins 7.62x54r, i know it will shoot circles around the mosin but I was just wondering how each round stacked up, strengths and weaknesses

Miles

Maverick223
March 23, 2010, 05:27 PM
You are very welcome, randommj. Another bit that I failed to mention is reloading the .35Rem. can be quite cheap if you use .357Mag. pistol bullets. This can evn make it cheaper to plink with than the 7.62x54R. ;)

MachIVshooter
March 23, 2010, 07:20 PM
Another bit that I failed to mention is reloading the .35Rem. can be quite cheap if you use .357Mag. pistol bullets.

Just remember to charge the cases appropriately; The handgun bullets cannot handle the velocities the .35 Rem. is capable of pushing them at. A 158 gr. .357 bullet could be pushed out of the .35 rem. at 2,700+ FPS, but it's not constructed to go that fast.

Also, in the Marlin 336, you can work up some warmer loads than if you were using an old Remington model 8 or model 14.

Bearhands
March 23, 2010, 08:06 PM
"marlin 336 in remington 35, and I was just wondering how that round compares to the mosins 7.62x54r, i know it will shoot circles around the mosin but I was just wondering how each round stacked up, strengths and weaknesses'
Personally, I think you're comparing apples and oranges. The Mosin round will be the one outshooting the 35 Remington by miles.

A closer comparison would be the 7.62X39 round
f.p.s. ft-lbs gr capacity
1. 7.62x54R Russian/7.62x53 Finnish 2699 2619 165 134 58.2
2. 7.62x39mm Russian (M1943) 2460 1503 119 123 35.5
3. .35 Remington 2049 1763 190 58 50.8

sorry if this is confusing the 1st# is the ft/second, 2nd # is the ft.lbs of energy, 3rd#is the bullet weight, skip the 4th#, the 5th is the load.

Maverick223
March 23, 2010, 08:40 PM
The Mosin round will be the one outshooting the 35 Remington by miles.Not necessarily, depends upon the condition of the Mosin. Some are great, some are horrible, and the Marlin 336 is a great deal more accurate than most give credit for.

:)

saturno_v
March 24, 2010, 03:19 AM
The 7,62x54R loaded to its full specs is almost identical in performance to the 30-06 (loaded to max specs as well)....so it is more powerful than the 308. Loaded to its limits it is a 3000 ft/lb class cartridge.

With the 30-06 and the 8x57 JS they were the most powerful service rifle cartridges during WWII

It is in another performance class compared to the 35 Rem, much more muzzle energy and much more range because more aerodynamic bullets.

So judging only the cartridge, the 54R is vastly superior, however it all depends on the application and the firearm to be used. Basically the only common firearm shooting the 54R is the Mosin and their quality can vary significantly...you can go from a tack driver to one that will not hit the side of a barn at 50 yards...however, generally, they tend to be accurate (if crown and rifling are in good shape), it is rare to have a very poorly accurate Mosin in good shape.

It can be a bit difficult to find good hunting bullets (.311) for the 54R but large sporting goods stores usually carry them.

As far as I know, the Russian commercial hunting loads are good, they performed very well on game.

The 203 gr. SP loads can be reliably used on very big stuff.

nathan
March 24, 2010, 03:26 AM
54 R is the way to go.

eddism
March 24, 2010, 03:33 AM
I got a Remington Model 9. It operates on the Browing Principle. Kicks like a mule and has the trajectory of a rainbow. Excellent brush gun slinging 300gr JSP. As a collector's piece, it hasn't been shot in 35 yrs. I'm not sure of its value, but since it was a pass-me-down from grandpa. Money couldn't buy it. If I could figure out how to do photo's I would certainly post it.

Any help with posting pictures would be a great help. I'd love to let you all see the collection.

Maverick223
March 24, 2010, 03:46 AM
The 7,62x54R loaded to its full specs is almost identical in performance to the 30-06 (loaded to max specs as well)....so it is more powerful than the 308. Loaded to its limits it is a 3000 ft/lb class cartridge.Not according to Lyman's 49th Ed., the A-Square manual, or the Hodgdon Manual. In fact Lyman's puts it slightly below the .308Win.

:)

dogngun
March 24, 2010, 05:59 AM
rimmed rifle round very like the '06 - long range accuracy and power.
.35 Rem os a short, fat case-rimless-designed for the remington self loading rifles and mainly used in the Marlin lever action for woods hunting at moderate range. It's a good deer and bear round, but it pretty limited otherwise. Pretty accurate for offhand in a lever gun at maybe 130 yards or so.

The 7.62 is cheap to buy, the Remington is about a dollar a shot now.

mark

Abel
March 24, 2010, 08:50 AM
the .35Rem. is a fairly low powered rifle, generally considered unsuitable for game larger than deer.

Then the general is wrong Mavrick! Black bear and hogs both easily fall to the 35 Rem. I consider those bigger than deer.

Personally, I think you're comparing apples and oranges. The Mosin round will be the one outshooting the 35 Remington by miles.


To this day, I have yet to meet a Mosin that would shoot a group tighter than the Marlin 336. You might have six in your gunsafe, but I've never seen one.

I'd rather have one good 336 than a crate full of those Mosins. That's just the truth, be it apple or orange color.

Bearhands
March 24, 2010, 09:40 AM
Abel,
I did not mean in any way, to disparage the 336 or the round itself (35 rem OR 30-30)... I'd love to have a 336 to accompany my Mod 94. The OP asked "I was just wanting a pure round comparison", which I tried to provide... With all things being equal (rifle condition etc), I do believe that the 7.62X54R is a much more powerful round with superior ballistics:

7.62x54R,200 gr 2529fps 2841energy 200gr n/a 58.2load
.35 Rem,200 gr 1987fps 1754 energy 200gr n/a 50.8load

that being said, I prefer the levergun for all it's inherent qualities.

Jason_W
March 24, 2010, 10:57 AM
The .35 Rem from a 336 is a lot more pleasant to shoot than a '54R from a Mosin. Just my opinion anyway.

While ballistics wise, the numbers are different on paper, I doubt any animal hit right with either could tell the difference.

Buffalo Bore makes some pretty stout 225 grain .35 Rem loads that would be good for most big game in north America, excluding big bears and bison.

saturno_v
March 24, 2010, 12:26 PM
Not according to Lyman's 49th Ed., the A-Square manual, or the Hodgdon Manual. In fact Lyman's puts it slightly below the .308Win.


Maverick

According to the Hodgdon Reload Data Center

http://data.hodgdon.com/main_menu.asp

The 30-06 and the 7,62x54R are within 50-70 fps from each other (gap favoring the 30-06) for bullet ranging from 150 gr. to 220 gr. so the Russian round is well ahead of the 308.

The Vihtavuori reload data has one 185 gr. 54R load outperforming the 180 gr. 30-06.

For all practical purposes the two rounds are equivalent.

Abel
March 24, 2010, 12:41 PM
The Mosin round will be the one outshooting the....

Yep. But, you said Mosin round, not 7.62x54R. What good is a 7.62x54R if you can hit a barn standin' inside?

Cosmoline
March 24, 2010, 01:28 PM
Then the general is wrong Mavrick! Black bear and hogs both easily fall to the 35 Rem. I consider those bigger than deer.

I'd have to agree with this. Current dogma mandates African level magnums for N American game, but it's a lot of nonsense. One of the most successful brown bear hunters up here, Judge Folta, bagged a ton of bruins with his .35 Remington. The big slow bullets don't deform and have a good sectional density. You don't need a high ft. lb. rating or velocity. The only real drawback is the range limitation, which is why the .35 is ideal for brush.

To this day, I have yet to meet a Mosin that would shoot a group tighter than the Marlin 336. You might have six in your gunsafe, but I've never seen one.

Mosin-Nagant accuracy is primarily a question of which cartridge you use. Most shooters tend to assume one 54R is the same as the other, but it ain't the case. I recently bought a pre-war 91/30 that shot pie plates with most loads but tightened up nicely with Wolf light FMJ. Apart from the truly shot-out examples, most Mosins are capable of 3MOA with tweaking and load searching. The best are pinpoint accurate, and can outshoot any levergun. Here is the 50 yard test target showing the dramatic variation in loads, all other conditions being the same:

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b52/Gussick/MosinGroupTest.jpg (http://s17.photobucket.com/albums/b52/Gussick/?action=view&current=MosinGroupTest.jpg)

Maverick223
March 24, 2010, 01:47 PM
Then the general is wrong Mavrick! Black bear and hogs both easily fall to the 35 Rem. I consider those bigger than deer.It can even do a bit more (with a skilled operator), but like I said it is generally considered to be a deer load.

Maverick [...] According to the Hodgdon Reload Data Center [...] The 30-06 and the 7,62x54R are within 50-70 fps from each otherI suppose it is one of those rounds that has loading information that varies pretty greatly from manual to manual. FWIW, I have noticed that the internet manuals tend to have stronger loads overall.

:)

randommj
March 24, 2010, 02:51 PM
eddism! PM sent!

Miles

Bearhands
March 24, 2010, 03:26 PM
[QUOTE]Yep. But, you said Mosin round, not 7.62x54R.[QUOTE]

Abel,
the 7.62X54R IS the Mosin round

336A
March 24, 2010, 06:03 PM
I think that most of the pros and cons have been covered by the previous posters. It really boils down to what you prefer. What are you going to be using the rifle for? If it is going to be for hunting what is the terrain like where you will be hunting? If you are going to be primarily plinking then I would say get the Mosin as ammo is pretty cheap. For hunting I would choose the .35 Remington. The Marlin rifles for which it is chambered in are very arccurate unlike what a lot of folks would expect. In general IMHO the Marlin .35 Rem will be more accurate than your run of the mill Mosin surplus rifle. Ammunition is geared for hunting and fairly easy to find. Maybe not quite as easy to locate as the 30-30. However it is easier to find ammo for than it would be to find hunting ammo for the 7.62x54R.

While the .35 Rem may not have the amount of energy that the 7.62x54R has, it has plenty at the ranges most deer are taken. Regardless of what the gun scribes would lead most folks to believe most deer are taken inside 150yd, and most of those are probably closer to 100yd. Sure there are with out a doubt folks that shoot deer beyond that distance but I don't think very many. Unless of course they set out to shoot that far on purpose. But at that point that kind of hunting is more shooting not hunting in it's literal sense.

IMHO hunting is getting on the ground in the dense woods where the game actually live and out witting your quarry, not sniping at it from 300-400yd away. Nothing lends itself to that style of hunting better than a good lever action rifle, as their fast handling, carry like a dream, and allow for quick follow up shots. For those that think a 30-30/35 Rem class of cartridge is not enough for game larger than deer then you need to watch this. This is hunting in it's purest form. Get in close undetected, positivley ID your quarry, know what is beyond it, and line up for a good shot to ensure a good clean kill.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1g4xILwfY60

_N4Z_
March 24, 2010, 10:18 PM
To this day, I have yet to meet a Mosin that would shoot a group tighter than the Marlin 336. You might have six in your gunsafe, but I've never seen one.


I have both, Marlin336 and Mosins M39.

Following was done with my Mosins. The Marlin can keep up for about 3 to 4 shots, but after that forget it.

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f22/_n4z_/mbar_sept09.jpg (http://s44.photobucket.com/albums/f22/_n4z_/?action=view&current=mbar_sept09.jpg)

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f22/_n4z_/private001.jpg (http://s44.photobucket.com/albums/f22/_n4z_/?action=view&current=private001.jpg)

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f22/_n4z_/firstMBARwSAKO.jpg (http://s44.photobucket.com/albums/f22/_n4z_/?action=view&current=firstMBARwSAKO.jpg)

randommj
March 24, 2010, 11:09 PM
NZ4, the stock on your mosin is amazing! did you refinish it? if so with what?

Miles

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