Should I load them any way?


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grubbylabs
March 23, 2010, 01:47 AM
I have some once fired brass for a 308.

I have sized it in a full length die.

I have trimmed it.

The speer book said trim to 2.005, I am there and a little under on some,2.005-1.995. It was my first time.


Well any way they still chamber really tight when I test them in the gun I will shoot them from.

If I load them and shoot them are they going to get stuck or be really hard to eject?

I am shooting a Marlin XS7 in 308

Thanks for all your help.

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918v
March 23, 2010, 01:51 AM
If they are chambering tight, you need to bump the shoulder back a bit more. Lube your neck insides as the expander ball may be dragging inside the neck and pulling the shoulder forward on the way out. Your caselength is OK. They will grow anyway.

grubbylabs
March 23, 2010, 01:55 AM
I will have to try the lube on the inside, I have the die almost touching the shell holder.

W.E.G.
March 23, 2010, 01:59 AM
You are just guessing if you don't use some sort of case gauge to measure your resized bottleneck rifle brass.

You might get by with it the first time, or the second time.

But mark my words, if you don't gauge your brass, you will eventually have a major headache on your hands.

http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd7/rkba2da/ammunition/precisionmic.jpg

http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd7/rkba2da/precisionmic.jpg http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd7/rkba2da/reloading/caseguage-Wilson.jpg

James2
March 23, 2010, 02:09 AM
I have the die almost touching the shell holder.

To full length size the shell holder has to touch the die.

Was this brass fired in your rifle? If not I would certainly turn the die in until the shell holder touches the die on the upstroke and size them again.

If you are loading brass that has been fired in your rifle you can sometimes get by without quite full length sizing it. In other words leave a small gap betweent the shell holder and the die. This then basically just neck sizes the brass and doesn't set the shoulder back. It makes for good tight head space, but you need to always adjust so that they will chamber without a fight.

evan price
March 23, 2010, 02:52 AM
I strongly advise anyone using range pickup brass to buy the Dillon case gauge. Worth the $24 or whatever they charge for it now. Just drop your resized case into it and it will tell you if it is too long or needs the shoulder adjusted.

918v
March 23, 2010, 03:13 AM
To full length size the shell holder has to touch the die.

No it does not.

R.W.Dale
March 23, 2010, 03:17 AM
To full length size the shell holder has to touch the die.

Was this brass fired in your rifle? If not I would certainly turn the die in until the shell holder touches the die on the upstroke and size them again.

If you are loading brass that has been fired in your rifle you can sometimes get by without quite full length sizing it. In other words leave a small gap betweent the shell holder and the die. This then basically just neck sizes the brass and doesn't set the shoulder back. It makes for good tight head space, but you need to always adjust so that they will chamber without a fight.

unless you have an out of spec die or shellholder to full length size your shellholder needs to "touch" the die + a quarter turn to eliminate all the flex in your press when you're actually shoving the shoulder back on a piece of brass. Anything less is partial length resizing

No it does not.

how do you figure

I agree with having a case gauge, but not so much with bolt actions. Because if you're like me once you fireform cases to that rifle's chamber they'll never see another FL sizing till they wear out

Steve Marshall
March 23, 2010, 07:05 AM
I use Wilson case gages for all rimless cartridges I reload for. About half of these require the die to touch the shellholder. Obviously the rest do not. I don't know what the spec. is for shellholders but all are reasonably close to .125" in depth. Anyone who insists on a universal touching of die to shellholder is in error. Even Redding dies on occasion, require a gap. Before you make blanket statements, I suggest you actually check your work. I had a sizing die from RCBS in .243 Win., that required almost a 1/16" gap.

Clark
March 23, 2010, 10:00 AM
918V,
Why is a guy with an IQ like yours posting on a handloading forum?

I'm thinking of writing a "How To Assemble Firearm Ammunition", Dr. Seuss style, with large color photographs. I may even sell a few copies.

He used a powder that was too quick,
extra slipped in, and he blew off his d***

The nanny cop said, "Oh what a bummer!"
"These load books....must get dumber."

Kentucky_Rifleman
March 23, 2010, 11:26 AM
Even Redding dies on occasion, require a gap. Before you make blanket statements, I suggest you actually check your work. I had a sizing die from RCBS in .243 Win., that required almost a 1/16" gap.

The gap was required to bring the brass back to spec, or to bring the brass to proper size for your rifle's chamber?

KR

rcmodel
March 23, 2010, 11:46 AM
No it does not. Generally speaking, it does.
A FL sizing die has to be screwed in to touch the shell holder, Plus another 1/4 turn or more to take all the slack & frame flex out of the press.

You have to feel the linkage "bump" when you complete the stroke.

If you have a FL sizing die that doesn't work that way, either it or your rifle is out of spec.

The OP needs to screw the die in further until the shoulder is sized back enough to chamber with only slight resistance when the stripped bolt is closed.

By stripped, I mean to take the striker assembly & ejector out of the bolt so you are not fighting the springs when trying them in the chamber.

rc

918v
March 23, 2010, 12:51 PM
No it does not. Because we're dealing with manufacturing tolerances from three sources (the gun, and the sizing die, and the shell holder), the "spec" goes out the window.

To push the shoulder back far enough for the bolt to close, the die has to be adjusted in such a way the internal shoulder of the die is positioned at a certain distance from the bottom of the shell holder. In many cases, the bottom of the die cannot touch the shell holder, else the shoulder will get bumped too much. You want about .003-.005" headspace at the most. If you "generally" screw down the die to touch the shell holder, you may end up with more than .005" headspace. Such an excess will reduce case life.

Headspace is a difficult concept for many handloaders. It is basically the free airspace between the case head and the bolt face. The amount of headspace is affected by the shoulder position. The closer the case shoulder to the chamber shoulder, the less headspace between the case head and the bolt face. It is important to keep headspace at a minimum because the more headspace we have, the more the case stretches upon firing. Unfourunately, the case tends to stretch about a half-inch forward of the bolt face. It gets thinner and thinner, and then lets go. When a casehead lets go (fails) the shooter gets to eat gas. That is not fun.

The proper die adjustment sequence is as follows:

Screw the die to touch the shellholder when the rem is all the way up.

Back off the die half a turn.

Size one case.

Chamber it. Is the bolt hard to close? If so, screw the die in an eigth of a turn.

Size the case again and try to chamber it. Is the bolt hard to close? Screw the die in a bit more.

Repeat until the bolt closes easily.

The one-eight turn increments will result in minimal headspace. The bolt will close easily, and the brass will last a long time.

Sometimes you have to screw the die in to touch the shellholder and then some. Many times you dont. Don't generalize when handloading. You'll blow yourself up.

918v
March 23, 2010, 12:53 PM
918V,
Why is a guy with an IQ like yours posting on a handloading forum?
Beats mowing the lawn ;)

R.W.Dale
March 23, 2010, 01:59 PM
The proper die adjustment sequence is as follows:

Screw the die to touch the shellholder when the rem is all the way up.

Back off the die half a turn.

Size one case.

Chamber it. Is the bolt hard to close? If so, screw the die in an eigth of a turn.

Size the case again and try to chamber it. Is the bolt hard to close? Screw the die in a bit more.

Repeat until the bolt closes easily.

There is only ONE degree of FL resizing --ONE. and that's with the shoulder and body of the case sized to the point where your brass will drop into a SAAMI spec case gauge. What you describe is partial length resizing to fit a particular chamber

BTW you try that with an ar15 or a K31 and let us know how that works out for ya! What you describe is only practical for turn bolt action rifles. Try this on an autoloader and you might never force the bolt open again, that is if you don't get slamfires on your not quite FL resized cases

This bears repeating in bold print!

What 918v describes is NOT full length resizing it is in fact partial length resizing where the shoulder is "bumped" back just enough to facilitate easy cambering

Kentucky_Rifleman
March 23, 2010, 02:12 PM
There is only ONE degree of FL resizing --ONE.

+1. I've used Redding, RCBS, Pacific, Hornady, Lyman, and Lee dies. Every manufacturer's instructions I've ever read indicate elevating the ram to full-stroke, tightening the die down onto the ram, dropping the ram, and then tightening the die an extra 1/8 to 1/4 rotation so that you can feel the compound lever of the ram "pop over" as it fully engages the die.

THE ONLY EXCEPTION is for carbide dies, which need to be backed out 1/8 to 1/4 of a turn to prevent cracking/shattering the die.

KR

shenck
March 23, 2010, 02:18 PM
It amazes me that people say the things they say without knowing what they are talking about. ALL of the dies I own clearly say to have firm contact between the shell holder and die for full length sizing. the instructions go on to tell you how to partial size the casing. By the way all my dies are RCBS and Redding. You should read the instructions that come with whatever dies you own.

Clark
March 23, 2010, 02:36 PM
My post is kind of repeat of WEG, but I am worried that 918V will get disgusted.

http://www.lewilson.com/images/400_Case_Gage_Slant.jpg


From:
http://www.lewilson.com/images/CASE_GAGE.pdf
competitor had 18 out of 22 cases break off in the chamber of his rifle in one match, due to having pushed the shoulder back too far in his press. With this gage that error in adjusting the die in his press could have been spotted at once and a lot of trouble prevented later.

What does it all mean?
If your FL sizing die touches the shell holder, you are most likely setting the shoulder back more than desirable.

243winxb
March 23, 2010, 02:55 PM
Well any way they still chamber really tight when I test them in the gun I will shoot them from.

If I load them and shoot them are they going to get stuck or be really hard to eject?
On firing, the case will expand to the chamber walls ,then spring back, extraction will be normal. You need to turn your flrs die down a hair more so the rounds chamber easy.

EddieNFL
March 23, 2010, 03:13 PM
It amazes me that people say the things they say without knowing what they are talking about. ALL of the dies I own clearly say to have firm contact between the shell holder and die for full length sizing. the instructions go on to tell you how to partial size the casing. By the way all my dies are RCBS and Redding. You should read the instructions that come with whatever dies you own.
The best advice I ever received was to throw out the instructions included with dies.

Yeah, turning the die down to SH and adding a partial turn will (almost always) completely FL size the brass. How much, you ask? No one knows...unless they have a way to measure the setback. For all you know your shoulder setback is 0.002"; just about perfect. Or it could be 0.010"; asking for a case separation. I have dies that completely resize without touching the SH. I have two sets that required removing metal to allow complete resizing.

Clark
March 23, 2010, 03:30 PM
I am repeating EddieNFL's post, but I am worried 918V is getting disgusted.
You can use the instructions, but you can do better.


The .308 chamber headspace is registered at SAAMI to be between 1.6300" and 1.6400".
The .308 ammo is headspace registered at SAAMI to be between 1.627" and 1.634".

That means the cartridge case to chamber fit can be from .0004" interference to .0130" clearance.

I have a 308 reamer and a 1.630" 308 go gauge.

If I put a the go gauge in a Forster FL 308 die and adjust until the gauge and die shoulders touch:
RCBS #3 shell holder has .010" clearance to the die

If I put a the go gauge in a Forster FL 308 die and adjust until the gauge and die shoulders touch:
Lee #2 shell holder has .008" clearance to the die

If I put a the go gauge in an RCBS small base 308 FL die and adjust until the gauge and die shoulders touch:
RCBS #3 shell holder has .004" clearance to the die

If I put a the go gauge in an RCBS small base 308 FL die and adjust until the gauge and die shoulders touch:
Lee #2 shell holder has .003" clearance to the die

The die / shell holder relationship then is capable of making the brass too short by .003" to .010" minus spring back.
Spring back is typically .001" ~ .002"
(A) The average die, shell holder, and spring back will then cause the shoulder of the brass to be set back to 1.630" - .005"

When I measure the head space of factory rifles, they are typically in the middle or upper middle of the .010" SAAMI allowed range for head spacing.
(B) But if we assume right in the middle the chamber would be 1.630 + .005"


Combining (A) + (B) we get the average chamber, average shell holder, and average FL die touching the shell holder, then the brass is set back .010" too far.

SlamFire1
March 23, 2010, 03:37 PM
Trim length is not safety critical once you are below max. If your case neck sticks into the throat and pinches the bullet, that is a safety issue.

I just trim my 308 brass to a nominal 2.0" minus who cares. As long as it is not 2.015" or longer, I don't have a problem.

Brass is just a gas seal. Neck trimming will not breech the case seal, but seating the shoulder back too much can.

That is why for bottle neck rifle cartridges, I use Cartridge Headspace gages to set up my sizing die.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/SlamFire/Reloading/ReducedWilsongagemeasuringnew308bra.jpg

Can you see the ledge in this photograph? That is the difference between "Go" and "No Go". Which is about .006" for most cartridges.

Cartridges which stretch more than .006" are highly likely to rupture. This depends on brass hardness and probably some other things, but brass will only stretch so much, and then it separates.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/SlamFire/Reloading/Wilsongagebetweengoandnogage308bras.jpg

Setting up sizing dies according to shell holder touch is an inexact way to improperly size your brass.

R.W.Dale
March 23, 2010, 04:14 PM
That is why for bottle neck rifle cartridges, I use Cartridge Headspace gages to set up my sizing die.


That's all well and good if you stick to loading the boring lemming 223-243-308-30-06 me too cartridges. But try finding a case gauge for 30HRT with a tight chamber or 7.5x54mm MAS?

But again if I'm loading for a bolt gun I have no need for a case gauge because if starting with new brass my ammo will never see anything other than a Lee collet die

Kentucky_Rifleman
March 23, 2010, 04:22 PM
The best advice I ever received was to throw out the instructions included with dies.

This sounds like bad advice to me. I seriously doubt if I know Hornady's products better than the engineers who designed them, but that's just my opinion.

seating the shoulder back too much can (breech the case seal).

If you're dealing with a rifle outside of SAMMI specs. But if the rifle is within specs, it should easily handle factory ammunition. If the dies are up to snuff (and I've never seen one that was outside of intense tolerances) then the dies, used as instructed, should full-length resize cases back to factory standards.

In my defense, I've reloaded thousands of rounds for both .308 and .223 autorifles using the directions supplied with my dies, and I've never had a case failure or a rifle malfunction due to my reloading. I generally reloaded .223 rounds 5 times before recycling them and .308 rounds I held at 4 reloads.

Using partial-length resizing makes sense for the OP's bolt gun. I personally prefer neck-sizing for bolts. But if one wanted to reload for an auotloader or a lever rifle, I would personally trust the folks who designed the dies I'm using. Can you get a fraction closer by using the headspace gauge and tweaking the dies? probably, but using the manufacturer's instructions has always worked for me.

Just my two-cents worth,
KR

Kentucky_Rifleman
March 23, 2010, 04:24 PM
That's all well and good if you stick to loading the boring lemming 223-243-308-30-06 me too cartridges.

Hey! That's hitting a little close to home brother! ;)

KR

shenck
March 23, 2010, 04:25 PM
There are much better ways, I almost always partial size to fit individual rifle chambers. I am simply agreeing with Krochus, doing anything other than having contact between shell holder and the die is not full length resizing. I agree that case/chamber gauges are the best way to set up your sizing die but they are not the only way, Many new reloaders get along fine without them. It's the quest for accuracy that usually gets gauges into the equipment list. And I don't think we should just disregard the instructions that come with our reloading equipment, I don't think that we are smarter than the engineers that design our equipment.

K. R. beat me to the engineer statement.

EddieNFL
March 23, 2010, 04:58 PM
This sounds like bad advice to me. I seriously doubt if I know Hornady's products better than the engineers who designed them, but that's just my opinion.

I probably don't know better, either. However, Hornady has not a clue about the specifics of my chamber or press.

In my defense, I've reloaded thousands of rounds for both .308 and .223 autorifles using the directions supplied with my dies, and I've never had a case failure or a rifle malfunction due to my reloading. I generally reloaded .223 rounds 5 times before recycling them and .308 rounds I held at 4 reloads.

. . . thousands doesn't touch what I've loaded and fired. Most reloaders follow manufacturer's instructions and very, very few will ever have a problem. Once a reloader graduates to handloading and is looking to minimize every variable possible, he has to move beyond the basics.

If I followed printed directions to the letter, I have several size dies that would have never worked. Either to short or too long. The to short would have worked...until about the third or fourth loading when I'm scratching my head wondering why caseheads are extracting, but the body is still in the chamber.

There is a lot more to handloading that what Speer prints in its manuals.

NavyLCDR
March 23, 2010, 05:07 PM
Ok, I might be a little bit dense here. To me the term full length sizing means that the entire shell casing is sized by the die, all the way from the case mouth to the case head. If there is a gap between the die and the shell holder, how is that portion of the shell casing that never enters the die sized exactly?

EddieNFL
March 23, 2010, 05:24 PM
It's a bit like saying, "I smacked the #$%^ out of him." Obviously not literal.

The only way to completely resize, that I'm aware of, is roll sizing. There are size dies designed for certain straight-walled cases that you push the case completely through.

Kentucky_Rifleman
March 23, 2010, 05:25 PM
I probably don't know better, either. However, Hornady has not a clue about the specifics of my chamber or press.

No they don't. What manufacturers do know is that if shellholder a is holding casing b and pressed completely into die C that the case will be returned to manufacturer's specified tolerances. This is full-length resizing, as I understand it. To manipulate the die into a position that does less is partial-length sizing, as I understand it. There is no way, without modifying the die itself or the shellholder, to move the reformed shoulder further down the case wall than the full-length resize stroke. You can back the die out of the press, and leave the shoulder forward of factory specs (partial length resizing).

While partial-length resizing is fine for bolt action rifles, it may or may not work for autoloaders and lever actions; that depends upon the rifle. I have yet to see a single instance where full-length resizing failed to produce cases that would chamber and extract from any SAMMI spec rifle.

In short, full-length resizing, following manufacturer's instructions has never failed to bring cases into spec, in my experience. It always works for me. Partial sizing or neck sizing leaves the brass better suited to a specific bolt-action rifle, but occasionally un-chamberable in a different rifle, especially models without the camming action of the bolt or with a slightly shorter headspace than the rifle that fire-formed the cases. Less than full-length resizing works sometimes, but not others.

If I've missed something, please show me.

KR

EddieNFL
March 23, 2010, 05:43 PM
What manufacturers do know is that if shellholder a is holding casing b and pressed completely into die C that the case will be returned to manufacturer's specified tolerances.

And that may or may not be "best" for my application.

I have yet to see a single instance where full-length resizing failed to produce cases that would chamber and extract from any SAMMI spec rifle.

Neither have I. I have seen dies not set the shoulder back far enough. Easy to figure out. And I've seen them set the shoulder back too far. Not easy to know if you have no way to measure a case. I've witnessed a number of case separations caused by excessive shoulder setback. First question: How did you set up your size die?

I have six AR15s. I have six sets of .223 dies with the sizer set for specific rifle. I'm too lazy to constantly make adjustments.

shenck
March 23, 2010, 08:50 PM
Some how this thread has gotten way off subject, I have reread my first reply to this thread and I think that I was [wrong] in the way I worded my response.:o For that I apologize to anyone that may I have offended, this was not my intent. Back to the subject at hand, It is my belief that if you full length size according to the manufactures instructions, and you have a chambering problem or excessive head space, the chamber, the die, or the shell holder is out of spec. Not including any special dies, I'm only talking about standard dies.

oneounceload
March 23, 2010, 09:33 PM
. . . since this is a bolt rifle - get a neck sizer and be done with it. If not, every die maker I have seen has stated what has been stated before - screw the die until it touches the ram at the top of the stroke, then screw 1/4 turn further for successful FL sizing

Not rocket science

grubbylabs
March 23, 2010, 09:56 PM
And to think I have another question.


Thank you for all your responses. I will be checking and adjusting the die till it touches the shell holder and let you all know how it worked out for me.

SlamFire1
March 23, 2010, 10:10 PM
I don't think that we are smarter than the engineers that design our equipment.

A lot of people who reload are engineers.

And if you want to really anger an engineer, tell him (or her) that another engineer is smarter than him. :evil:

Engineers will acknowledge equals, but not superiors. :scrutiny:

GarandNewby
March 23, 2010, 10:22 PM
EddieNFL said: "I have six AR15s. I have six sets of .223 dies with the sizer set for specific rifle. I'm too lazy to constantly make adjustments."

I'm getting an education, here. I load for 9mmL, .45 ACP, and .38 Spl, and learning before doing for 30-06.

Did you just say "I am too lazy to make cartridges that work in all six of my same-caliber rifles. It's just too much work to make standard ammo that I can use in any of my rifles. It is MUCH easier to have six separate sets of ammo and keep track of which set fits which rifle, because they are all different enough that they won't cycle properly in the wrong one, but they work better than standard as long as I don't screw up which rifle gets which ammo."?

Can we sum this thread up with "Full-Sizing gives you cartridges that meet the spec. Those cartridges should work properly in any rifle that is in spec. However, you may well get better results (and your cases last longer) if you Partial-Size, as long as you KNOW that your non-spec ammo will never find it's way into another rifle."? Does that make sense and meet consensus?

EddieNFL
March 23, 2010, 10:37 PM
Did you just say "I am too lazy to make cartridges that work in all six of my same-caliber rifles. It's just too much work to make standard ammo that I can use in any of my rifles.

No, I said I'm too lazy to constantly adjust dies. I doubt I save any time and may actually take longer, but I like to set a die and leave it.

I don't load much standard ammo. The chambers are slightly different rifle to rifle. I like a shoulder setback of 0.002" - 0.003" for auto loaders so I set up the sizer accordingly. Also, I use different bullets in different rifles so the seater stays set, as well.

Those cartridges should work properly in any rifle that is in spec. However, you may well get better results (and your cases last longer) if you Partial-Size, as long as you KNOW that your non-spec ammo will never find it's way into another rifle."? Does that make sense and meet consensus?

I don't consider it partial sizing if the shoulder is touched, but I agree with your statement.

Clark
March 24, 2010, 01:09 AM
SlamFire1
Member


Join Date: December 29, 2006
Location: Alabama
Posts: 3,056

Quote:
I don't think that we are smarter than the engineers that design our equipment.
A lot of people who reload are engineers.

And if you want to really anger an engineer, tell him (or her) that another engineer is smarter than him.

Engineers will acknowledge equals, but not superiors.
__________________

Myself, my father, my wife, my son, my cousins, and my uncle are all engineers. Many of my friends and hunting buddies are engineers.

I have sent drawing changes [suggestions] to Forster once for their seating die and a couple time for their co-ax press. No response.

But the only time I really made a change was to the Rockchucker press. I broke mine and sent the pieces to RCBS. The gave me a new press. Then next year they strengthened the design.

There is a joke in engineering "Not invented here" NIH.

grubbylabs
March 24, 2010, 01:46 AM
I went back and looked at the spacing, It was really close, barely see light close, I ran it the rest of the way down and put an extra 1/4 for good measure. I was able to get an extra 13 cases, on 4 of them they chamber but they are fairly tight.

So thanks for all your help.

Plus I have an extra 100 coming in the mail soon. So I should be for a little while.

918v
March 24, 2010, 02:14 AM
There is only ONE degree of FL resizing --ONE. and that's with the shoulder and body of the case sized to the point where your brass will drop into a SAAMI spec case gauge. What you describe is partial length resizing to fit a particular chamber

BTW you try that with an ar15 or a K31 and let us know how that works out for ya! What you describe is only practical for turn bolt action rifles. Try this on an autoloader and you might never force the bolt open again, that is if you don't get slamfires on your not quite FL resized cases

This bears repeating in bold print!

What 918v describes is NOT full length resizing it is in fact partial length resizing where the shoulder is "bumped" back just enough to facilitate easy cambering
If that's you position, then FL sizing is DANGEROUS. I have owned at least one rifle where your definition of FL sizing using a certain FL die would have induced casehead separation on the first shot. Is that what you want? People blindly slapping cartriges together and then returning with wood spliners in their face asking you what happened?

FL sizing means reducing the diameter of the case body, neck and shoulder. The other kind of sizing is called neck sizing, where the body and shoulder are left alone and only the neck gets sized. What I described in my previous post is the correct adjustment of your FL die for your rifle so that you can enjoy the benefits of safety and prolonged brass life.

My brass lasts in excess of 15 reloads. Some people report 50 reloads when using Lapua brass. Tossing brass after five reloads is a waste.

Clark
March 24, 2010, 10:45 AM
Is "shell holder bumping novice" the new handloading slight?

SlamFire1
March 24, 2010, 11:10 AM
If that's you position, then FL sizing is DANGEROUS. I have owned at least one rifle where your definition of FL sizing using a certain FL die would have induced casehead separation on the first shot. Is that what you want? People blindly slapping cartriges together and then returning with wood spliners in their face asking you what happened?

Sounds like that rifle was out of spec.

That is why it is always good to check headspace on used rifles.

Sure, the previous owner knew the trick, but if a rifle is so out of tolerance that case heads seperate, the first factory cartridge in the chamber, and the next owner will be missing a hand or an eye.

Firearms like that should be fixed, parted out, but not left to the next generation. They are dangerous. :evil:

R.W.Dale
March 24, 2010, 12:10 PM
915v if you hava a rifle that will seperate case heads on saami spec reloads then it will also do so with factory ammo. THAT RIFLE IS BROKEN! in which case you have a firearm malfunction and not a sizing problem.

So again what you describe is still not fl resizing.

BTW I have one batch of 7.62x39 cases that have 15 semiauto loadings on em with each and every one resized to fit in a saami case gauge

918v
March 24, 2010, 12:30 PM
It is FL resizing. What you are doing is changing the definition.

A case gauge is not your chamber. Oftentimes the chamber is larger or smaller.

Yes, my rifle was dangerously out of spec, but we can't tell by looking, can we? The only way to tell is to check with headspace gauges.

R.W.Dale
March 24, 2010, 12:49 PM
It is FL resizing. What you are doing is changing the definition.

no YOU are applying the definition of partial length sizing or "bump" sizing to FL resizing.

Again since you have trouble with comprehending.

THERE IS ONLY ONE DEGREE OF FL RESIZING. and that's where your cases will sit flush in one of these
http://www.lewilson.com/images/400_Case_Gage_Slant.jpg
If your cases will not fit in one of these no matter how well they fit your chamber they are NOT full length resized. FL resized ammo can be fired in any firearm of that same chambering, following your "definition" of FL sizing this is NOT possible

918v
March 24, 2010, 12:50 PM
Here is a good article on FL sizing. The OP should pay attention to the word "most" when reading it. They use the word to describe most rifles, most of the time, etc. What's importaint is that sometimes or oftentimes a rifle is out of spec and you cannot follow instructions blindly:

http://blog.sinclairintl.com/2009/02/19/setting-up-a-full-length-sizing-die/

918v
March 24, 2010, 12:52 PM
no YOU are applying the definition of partial length sizing or "bump" sizing to FL resizing.

Again since you have trouble with comprehending.

THERE IS ONLY ONE DEGREE OF FL RESIZING. and that's where your cases will sit flush in one of these
http://www.lewilson.com/images/400_Case_Gage_Slant.jpg
If your cases will not fit in one of these no matter how well they fit your chamber they are NOT full length resized. FL resized ammo can be fired in any firearm of that same chambering, following your "definition" of FL sizing this is NOT possible


I'm not changing the definition, you are. FL sizing is a term used to distinguish neck sizing. What I am doing is adjusting the FL die for minimum headspace, not partially doing anything.

918v
March 24, 2010, 12:55 PM
Furthermore, since you are having a hard time comprehending, your case gauge does not accurately represent your chamber. It may or may not represent the manufacturer's interpretation of a SAAMI spec chamber.

R.W.Dale
March 24, 2010, 12:57 PM
What's importaint is that sometimes or oftentimes a rifle is out of spec and you cannot follow instructions blindly:

at which point you partial length resize to allow chambering for THAT ONE RIFLE in order to extend brass life. But it's also glaringly obvious that you can't call the process FL resizing since you couldn't take this same load and chamber it in another rifle

R.W.Dale
March 24, 2010, 01:00 PM
Furthermore, since you are having a hard time comprehending, your case gauge does not accurately represent your chamber. It may or may not represent the manufacturer's interpretation of a SAAMI spec chamber.
repeat after me your chamber doesn't matter, your chamber doesn't matter, your chamber doesn't matter.

If the sized brass won't fit in a saami spec case gauge and therefore ALL firearms so chambered in good condition the said brass is NOT FULL LENGTH resized, PERIOD

you seem to be having extreme difficulty grasping the "in any firearm so chambered part" which is rather obvious since you admit to having how many .223 die sets?

918v
March 24, 2010, 01:02 PM
Even if you used your FL die's maximum headspace potential by screwing it down to touch the shellholder and then some, that in itself does not guarrantee the resulting round will chamber in another rifle.

R.W.Dale
March 24, 2010, 01:06 PM
that in itself does not guarrantee the resulting round will chamber in another rifle.
True!

if the resulting ammo fits into a saami gauge but still won't chamber (excluding bullet rifling contact) then you essentially have an incorrectly made firearm that needs to be fixed.

Again not a handloading issue but a RIFLE issue as said rifle won't be able to chamber & fire factory ammo!

I'm noticing you seem to use your size dies as crutches to avoid having broken rifles fixed properly.

918v
March 24, 2010, 01:06 PM
repeat after me your chamber doesn't matter, your chamber doesn't matter, your chamber doesn't matter.

If the sized brass won't fit in a saami spec case gauge and therefore ALL firearms so chambered in good condition the said brass is NOT FULL LENGTH resized, PERIOD

you seem to be having extreme difficulty grasping the "in any firearm so chambered part" which is rather obvious since you admit to having how many .223 die sets?
You are having a hard time with ynderstanding the term "tolerance". SAAMI is not law. It is a guide. No factory chamber, and no round of ammo falls in the middle of the SAAMI spec range. Neither do dies, gauges, or shell holders. Mismatch any of those, even unintentionally, and you will have an out of spec round.

Like I said, you cannot blindly screw stuff together and HOPE it will work because the tools are allegedly made to SAAMI spec.

Clark
March 24, 2010, 03:30 PM
Once I realize that someone believes in perpetual motion, or the like, I give up on technical discussion with them.

I have done lots of technical lectures to groups of engineers, and my expectation is that that I can get a few things into the heads of a few of them.

There are lots of smart non engineers around, but most laymen can't be taught anything new. They don't want to hear it.

There are some people that are not interested in learning, just arguing.

I endured years of flames from such types over CZ52 strength.
I have finally got the load books changed by posting my data on internet forums like this one.
I did that by ignoring posts with no technical wit.

I can see that there are stubborn shell holder bumping novice(s) that may be best treated the same way.

Johnny Guest
March 24, 2010, 04:05 PM
This thread has gone on for too long already.

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