Threat of arrest for empty holster


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divemedic
March 23, 2010, 04:31 PM
I was attempting to enter the courthouse in Osceola County, Florida. The Deputy asked me to remove all metal items and put them in a tray to be X-rayed. I knew what a pain it is to enter the courthouse, so I had left my firearm, handcuff keys (carried for work), watch, and wallet in my truck.

She then asked if I had a belt with a metal buckle, and I replied that it was brass and would not set off the metal detector. She said that I still had to remove it, because their detectors were sensitive. (I didn't bother to explain to her how a magnetometer works, but you would think they would have training on the limitations and capabilities of their equipment.)

When I did, I was forced to remove my holster and place it in the tray as well. From the looks on the Deputies' faces, you would think that I had produced a live cobra. They then threatened to arrest me for attempting to introduce a prohibited item into a secure facility (a felony). I told them that if they could find the statute that listed a leather holster as an illegal item, I would put the cuffs on myself. They let me go with a warning, after telling me that they alone get to decide what a prohibited item is.

So much for the theory of it being impossible to unknowingly commit a felony.



Edited to add: here is a link to the court website (http://www.ninja9.org/courts/courthouses/oscloc.htm). Holsters are nowhere to be seen on the list.

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Nikdfish
March 23, 2010, 04:34 PM
But now you're on double secret probation! ;-)

dovedescending
March 23, 2010, 04:42 PM
They let me go with a warning, after telling me that they alone get to decide what a prohibited item is.

:scrutiny: :mad: :fire: :cuss: :banghead:

No, the legislative body does...

kingpin008
March 23, 2010, 04:45 PM
Security: Sir, we get to decide what prohibited items are.

Divemedic: No, you don't. Have a nice day!

/scene.

Claude Clay
March 23, 2010, 04:46 PM
under the umbrella of--its not bragging if its true;

its not cop bashing if its true:
much abuse of 'the power to say NO' by those in power has led to
a great many of the 'we the people' to being dissatisified.
even the sheep are starting to rally against the establishment.

......better late than never.

Frank Ettin
March 23, 2010, 04:47 PM
...So much for the theory of it being impossible to unknowingly commit a felony....Wait, what does this have to do with being able to unknowingly commit a felony? The facts are:

[1] You did not commit a felony.

[2] You weren't arrested for committing a felony.

[3] You weren't charged with committing a felony.

[4] You weren't prosecuted for committing a felony.

You were subjected to badgering by some idiots who obviously didn't know what they were doing, who realized that they had overstepped their bounds, and warned you because they were too churlish to admit that they made a mistake.

How does all of that translate to "unknowingly committing a felony"?

Ragnar Danneskjold
March 23, 2010, 04:51 PM
Wait, what does this have to do with being able to unknowingly commit a felony? The facts are:

[1] You did not commit a felony.

[2] You weren't arrested for committing a felony.

[3] You weren't charged with committing a felony.

[4] You weren't prosecuted for committing a felony.

You were subjected to badgering by some idiots who obviously didn't know what they were doing, who realized that they had overstepped their bounds, and warned you because they were too churlish to admit that they made a mistake.

How does all of that translate to "unknowingly committing a felony"?

This. Not to mention I've never heard of the "theory of it being impossible to unknowingly commit a felony".

rcmodel
March 23, 2010, 04:54 PM
I didn't bother to explain to her how a magnetometer works,How come I can find silver, copper, gold, aluminum, and brass items with my metal detector then?

Don't they work the same way the metal detector works at the court house?

It's not based on magnetism.
It's based on an interruption of a electronic field produced by the search coil.
All the metal has to be is able to do is conduct an electric current.

rc

divemedic
March 23, 2010, 05:12 PM
This. Not to mention I've never heard of the "theory of it being impossible to unknowingly commit a felony".

That was claimed by several members in this thread:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=479651

The Deputies claimed that any item that can be used as a weapon or aid in the escape of a prisoner is prohibited. They claimed that they were the sole determinants of what could be used as a weapon.

I have worn this belt and holster into numerous courthouses all over central florida, and not once have they set off the magnetometer,

EddieNFL
March 23, 2010, 05:15 PM
They let me go with a warning, after telling me that they alone get to decide what a prohibited item is.

Whenever I read something like this, I remember the scene from Dumb and Dumber. Jim Carey is running down the jetway with Lauren Holly's briefcase. An airport employee tries to stop him and he yells, "It's okay. I'm a chauffeur!"

ForumSurfer
March 23, 2010, 05:15 PM
How come I can find silver, copper, gold, aluminum, and brass items with my metal detector then?


^^^What he said.

I've seen brass do it. You may have a brass buckle, but there may be metal eyelets, a metal clasp, metal internal reinforcement or who knows what on there. They see hundreds of belts go through, so they're just covering their bases. It's not outrageous for them to ask for your belt. They have exactly 2-3 seconds to judge your demeanor. If you acted protective over your belt in any way, I don't blame them for asking.

Now as far as the holster being a felony...that's another story. Me personally, I would have left it in the truck to avoid any questioning from the start. I would also have been rather peeved, made note of his name and possibly phoned the SO and asked for his Captain....depending on how mad I was after I calmed down and how disrespectful his tone was. Five minute later I may completely dismiss it and move on with my life, making a note to "leave holster in car" next time. ;)

Also keep in mind that you may be dealing with rookies at the door, getting their feet wet. Be patient and grant them some slack. I know they hold a high position, but we all screw up. I've screwed up worse than that at my job without punishment. Many people start bashing "cops" the minute one makes a mistake. They haven't been trained on the law to the extent of a lawyer, they don't know 100% of the intricacies of their equipment and they occasionally goof up. Sounds like you acted rationally, but I know others that would have created a pretty bad scene and been thrown out of the building.

heeler
March 23, 2010, 05:16 PM
Well under that guise a pocket comb might be cause for a felony arrest.

Frank Ettin
March 23, 2010, 05:22 PM
...The Deputies claimed that any item that can be used as a weapon or aid in the escape of a prisoner is prohibited. They claimed that they were the sole determinants of what could be used as a weapon....It doesn't matter what they claimed. You were not charged with any crime; you were not arrested; you were not prosecuted. You were merely bothered. The deputies may have been wrong and rude, but that doesn't have anything to do with the unknowing commission of a felony.

NMGonzo
March 23, 2010, 05:37 PM
And what type of offense is to be rude, ignorant, and wrong?

Raise the wage base; improve your force pool.

kda
March 23, 2010, 06:41 PM
Sadly another case of people filling jobs that are way over their abilities or skills (mental in this case). The bluffing / blustering is a typical sign of people in over their heads.

MetalHead
March 23, 2010, 06:55 PM
The deputy should have just made a calm comment that it would make them feel much better if you didn't bring the holster next time.

danprkr
March 23, 2010, 06:59 PM
after telling me that they alone get to decide what a prohibited item is.

Had a zoning guy tell me that there was no definition of "unclean premises" after he wrote me multiple tickets for it. He just got to decide. I then took them to court, and the city attorney pitched out all of the tickets since the city official was writing tickets he knew nothing about. Turned out that there is a "unclean premises" offense, but my wrecked car awaiting insurance settlement did not match it in any way shape form or fashion. Just a city bureaucrat lording it over us mere citizens.

To this day I'm not sure if the guy was being intentionally dishonest to attempt to make his fine numbers better, or if he was stupid. Either way the city was scared to shine the light of day on the matter.

It's hard to tell, but often it's like my mother says, "if they had the brains to be productive citizens they'd have a job instead of sponging off us!" Just as often it's them trying to suck up to their boss by pumping the numbers in someway. Hard to tell, but either way often if it's called it mysteriously disappears.

gym
March 23, 2010, 07:19 PM
I would call the clerk of the court, and tell him or her the story, just ask for clarification. They will do the rest.

19-3Ben
March 23, 2010, 07:23 PM
I would call the clerk of the court, and tell him or her the story, just ask for clarification. They will do the rest.

The clerk's office deals with pending legal matters in the court. They do not oversee the day-to-day management of the court, nor the marshals. There should be a head marshal's desk where they will address issues such as these.

Hud
March 23, 2010, 07:39 PM
Never take "No" from someone who doesn't have the authority to say "Yes".

Uncle Mike
March 23, 2010, 07:53 PM
Hey...welcome to the great state of Florida!

Impureclient
March 23, 2010, 08:03 PM
Just for fun I would go back with the holster and tell them "stop threatening and arrest me."
Nothing like a nice lawsuit to shake some sense into them. Just another case of law enforcement again thinking they are above the law.
They need to be put in their place. The unemployment line, that is.

Gouranga
March 23, 2010, 08:18 PM
The clerk's office deals with pending legal matters in the court. They do not oversee the day-to-day management of the court, nor the marshals. There should be a head marshal's desk where they will address issues such as these.

Not sure if it is the same there, but here the County Sheriff (assuming county courthouse) controls all security for the court house. If that is the case, you could go to the Sheriff and voice your concern to him.

Personally, as tempting as it is, I would avoid deliberately antagonizing them. That is a game you just will not win. You need to be careful with your state laws. They had a guy arrested (and convicted) here for cussing at a cop who supposedly just said "Hello". The guys reportedly responded with <Duck Goo>, and was arrested for some statute on using language that was intended to provoke/incite an official, which IMO is a pretty scary law.

Ragnar Danneskjold
March 23, 2010, 08:28 PM
Never take "No" from someone who doesn't have the authority to say "Yes".

Ok. You walk up to the gate of a nuclear power plant and tell the guard you are coming inside to see the facilities. The guard does not have the authority to tell you "yes". Good luck.

Speedo66
March 23, 2010, 08:32 PM
Aluminum foil will set off a magnetometer, even the foiled paper from inside a cigarette pack.

From the comments I gather the thinking here is there are no good or essential civil servants? Same for police?

ozarkgunner
March 23, 2010, 08:32 PM
people charged with the protection of others should not be given slack, or leeway. This is the problem. How would you feel if your life was being guarded by "rookies just getting their feet wet". Not comforting. Put them out beating the street to get some experience.
I'm a welding supervisor. We don't put new bee's out in the field wleding structural steel on high rises, school, etc. They are in the shop, learning, being taught, correct procedure, right, wrong, etc. Not until they have proven themselves without fault, do they get to go out to the field and put their skills to the test and people lives at risk, should they not perform well.
This should be the same with LE, who's job it is to judge who and what is safe, dangerous, etc.

orionengnr
March 23, 2010, 08:36 PM
^^^^
This. :)
They let me go with a warning, after telling me that they alone get to decide what a prohibited item is.Yet another case of Barney Fife complex.

Just because I'm fed up with goverment abuse of power (and I'm a bit old and crotchety), I would be sure to wear my holster next time. Go ahead and arrest me--I want to hear the charges. I don't have a lawyer, but I'm thinking any law school graduate (and most paralegals) could find their way through this one blindfolded.

I believe certain college students attempting to hold "empty-holster" protests on campus have been threatened with Disturbing the Peace (because that was about as creative as the authorities could get), but I'd be willing to take that one on.

If I read between the lines correctly (I think you said something about handcuffs being part of your duty gear) I am guessing you may be an LEO...in which case I would do the same, with even more confidence of prevailing.

Tyrannical acts and tyrannical attitudes, whether large or small, should always be challenged, lest they grow bolder.

It's not like we're dealing with Uday and Qusay here. Yet. ;)

LRS_Ranger
March 23, 2010, 09:05 PM
I always raise a few eyebrows when I wear my leather into my county courthouse, but I've never been hassled... I politely tell the officer that my firearm is in the car; I had one ask me why I carry a gun all the time. I asked her why she carried hers all the time. She just shrugged and went on to the next person.

divemedic
March 23, 2010, 09:10 PM
If I read between the lines correctly (I think you said something about handcuffs being part of your duty gear) I am guessing you may be an LEO..

Paramedic. I have handcuff keys because I frequently transport prisoners, and some of the cops here don't know what positional asphyxia is.

janedoedad
March 23, 2010, 11:44 PM
Sounds like the Deputies were trained by the TSA.

evan price
March 24, 2010, 05:01 AM
What I usually do in these situations is put my cell phone in my gun holster. It's a phone holster. They can go pound sand.

Bovice
March 24, 2010, 05:26 AM
That's stupid. Report that to their superiors. What in the hell can you do with an empty holster? If we're going to consider a piece of leather a prohibited item, then most wallets can't be carried into a courthouse either.

I have no problem with police officers. I do have a problem when they throw their weight around just for the hell of it.

I find it frightening how much authority is given to your average cop. They can arrest you for bogus stuff and put you through a nightmare, they can "Baker Act" someone (FL) with no real expertise in mental health... The list goes on. Not to mention that I'm not so confident in their abilities as protectors of society. It's a position that's rather easily gained and a breeding ground for monsters. If they're going to have these abilities to so greatly impact our personal lives, becoming a police officer needs to be on the same level as getting a college degree in terms of amount of time learning and training. Some of them have degrees, but it's certainly not a requirement. The police academy is a joke. I know a guy who just went through it and I don't think he could handle a squabble between two 5 year olds and an ice cream cone. He weighs about 120 pounds, soaking wet. It's a physically demanding job and if I were someone who was weak and was at the mercy of thugs who greatly outmuscled me, I'd want an officer who physically dominated on the scene. Nothing makes me chuckle more than to see those videos of LEOs getting into physical confrontations with people and losing miserably(not to mention this is FOOLISH if you're carrying a weapon within reach of the other person). We all know how reluctant they are to pull their weapons, so they use other skills if at all possible, and those skills are lacking. However, they're taught JUST enough to be a danger to themselves and the rest of us.

Ky Larry
March 24, 2010, 07:09 AM
Small minds + a little authority= danger to liberty.

Ragnar Danneskjold
March 24, 2010, 07:21 AM
It's a position that's rather easily gained
Wrong. In my state there is an average of 150-200 applicants for every one open officer position.
If they're going to have these abilities to so greatly impact our personal lives, becoming a police officer needs to be on the same level as getting a college degree in terms of amount of time learning and training. Some of them have degrees, but it's certainly not a requirement.
Wrong. In many states, such as mine, a college degree is an unwaivable requirement to even be accepted to a police academy
The police academy is a joke.
Wrong. My police academy was 21 weeks long, 6 days a week, and 12-14 hours a day. And the physical requirements exceeded that of anything I've ever done in the military.

You sure do make a lot of baseless arguments.

danprkr
March 24, 2010, 07:30 AM
some statute on using language that was intended to provoke/incite an official, which IMO is a pretty scary law.

Pretty scary? Try terrifying.

From the comments I gather the thinking here is there are no good or essential civil servants? Same for police?

Easy to see why you would think we'd feel that way just reading this thread, but the reality is that mostly we realize that most public servants are fine people trying to do their job as well and professionally as possible. Like all occupations though you see the standouts either way. In this case we're looking at the sub par standouts so you get this impression that we think all of them are this way. At least in my case that is not the case. I am merely aware that the power hungry foolish bureaucrats exist, and don't take any guff from them. If they handle a situation in a professional courteous manner I may not agree with it. I may even fight for what I feel is right, but I won't take it out on the person on the line. I'll buck it up the chain of command as is proper.

Double Naught Spy
March 24, 2010, 07:52 AM
I have worn this belt and holster into numerous courthouses all over central florida, and not once have they set off the magnetometer,

She then asked if I had a belt with a metal buckle, and I replied that it was brass and would not set off the metal detector. She said that I still had to remove it, because their detectors were sensitive. (I didn't bother to explain to her how a magnetometer works, but you would think they would have training on the limitations and capabilities of their equipment.)

It is interesting that you mentioned that your buckle was brass and would not set of a magnetometer given that magnetometers have been used to find old shipwrecks and have generated hits on individual brass cannons.

I know you introduced this unrelated facet (has nothing to do with the threat about the holster) as further documentation to portray the deputies as not being very swift, but I am afraid it has backfired and shows your own ignorance on the subject. In this case, the deputies know more about the equipment than you do. As noted above, metal detectors actually detect changes in the magnetic field generated by the detector. This includes both ferrous and nonferrous metals.

The deputy is correct about the sensitivity as well. It can be turned up or down (which may be by changing the power level or the frequency of the field, I believe most do the latter). So your brass buckle may not have affected some detectors in the past, but might have during your current visit.

I have managed to pass through detectors with my change, cell phone and keys at one airport only to have a dime set up the detector at another on the same day (pre 9/11).

Sav .250
March 24, 2010, 08:04 AM
I`m thinking, next time you should remove the holster before entering and avoid the grief. :)

Hokkmike
March 24, 2010, 09:40 AM
Shame on them for not doing their job! If the hoslter was a "prohibited item" and they let it go then they are not worthy of their hire and should be prosecuted and fired! Of course I realize that for you to have challenged them in that manner might have cause you further unecessary delay and harassment while they invented some other rediculous violation!

Sorry you had to endure that arrogance and stupidity......

wishin
March 24, 2010, 09:52 AM
The Deputies claimed that any item that can be used as a weapon or aid in the escape of a prisoner is prohibited. They claimed that they were the sole determinants of what could be used as a weapon.
You'd better wear a disguise the next time. They'll probably make you remove your shoelaces too!:uhoh:

ForumSurfer
March 24, 2010, 10:32 AM
If they're going to have these abilities to so greatly impact our personal lives, becoming a police officer needs to be on the same level as getting a college degree in terms of amount of time learning and training.

Are you willing to pay more local government taxes to cover higher pay grades? Or are we assuming LEO's will earn a 4 year degree and accept a $35,000 yearly salary?

Keep in mind that we entrust our safety to fine LEO's everywhere, yet our government sees fit to pay them bottom dollar. I have many LEO friends that do what they do out of a sense of duty and civic service. An ex-coworker comes to mind, who went from making 75-80 per year to 32 because he wanted to do public service. He carries out his duties with respect for all those he comes into contact with. For that, he gets spit on and treated badly. Most people seem to treat the good ones out there badly because it's as if everyone takes the bad apples and assumes that they are the status quo.

dovedescending
March 24, 2010, 10:49 AM
Any job field has good apples and bad apples. A police department about 35 minutes from here has the most professional, courteous, and intelligent officers I've ever met. They are in good shape, they are well trained, and they are very good at their jobs.

My own county's deputies are highschool dropouts with Barney Fife complex. They are overweight, insecure, and only remember how to shoot their weapons because POST requires them to requalify once a year.

mbt2001
March 24, 2010, 11:03 AM
America used to be:

UNLESS PROHIBITED, ALLOWED

now it is

UNLESS ENUMERATED, PROHIBITED

Welcome to the D.C. Jail, you might make it out of here, you might not...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=soX00BnXCoo

Officers'Wife
March 24, 2010, 11:07 AM
The moment you were threatened with arrest you should have answered in that case let's wait for my attorney. Too many time the Roscoe's with a badge use arrest as a tool to abuse their authority. They need to be called on it. Even a special needs lawyer can get you reimbursed for your time and trouble.

nitetrane98
March 24, 2010, 11:16 AM
A lot of these scenarios fall under the "officer's discretion" category. Some have better discretion than others. You will never find any legislation that covers any possible security situation so it indeed boils down to a "it's our ball so we make the rules" attitude.
Many times a person like these will default to a "by god nothing gets in" and "because I said so" is a perfectly logical answer to the why not question.

If a supervisor is contacted, they will generally support their employee publicly and give a little discretion guidance in private. Sometimes the whole chain of command is ate up with the same mindset. Despite the wording, "common sense" is really not that common. Lower echelon employees are generally fearful of thinking for themselves. It's rarely encouraged in any military type organizational structure.

This was illustrated to me when I used to fly armed in prisoner transport. After declaring my weapon and going through the dog and pony show, I was asked if I had any sharp objects on my person. Somewhat incredulous, I asked the clerk if she understood that I had a loaded weapon on my hip. "Oh yeah, I understand, but we have to ask these questions."

Officers'Wife
March 24, 2010, 11:26 AM
Hi Nitetrain,

Lower echelon employees are generally fearful of thinking for themselves. It's rarely encouraged in any military type organizational structure.

Never been around Special Forces/ Elite Forces units I take it.

Action_Can_Do
March 24, 2010, 12:16 PM
Ragnar
Those are some pretty high requirements to become a police officer. I imagine Michigan must pay pretty well to make those demands. Where I live, not only do local police not need any degree, they needn't have gone to the police academy at all. I'm talking local police here. I believe the state police have higher standards.

rmfnla
March 24, 2010, 12:29 PM
The moment you were threatened with arrest you should have answered in that case let's wait for my attorney. Too many time the Roscoe's with a badge use arrest as a tool to abuse their authority. They need to be called on it. Even a special needs lawyer can get you reimbursed for your time and trouble.
I like this!

easyg
March 24, 2010, 12:46 PM
I would report them to their superiors.
If for no other reason than in the hopes that someone might be able to educate them on exactly what a prohibited item is.

wojownik
March 24, 2010, 12:56 PM
Regarding metal detectors, yes of course they can detect brass - ask any civil war buff...

Regarding the holster issue, I got hassled once by county cops in Maryland. I came home from the range, all my pistols nice a locked up in a case in my locked trunk. I just forgot to take my OWB holster off. Some deputy hassled me a bit, saying something about "showing intent" (there's virtually no such thing as public carry in MD).

In Virginia, I got hassled by a security guard at private business - they posted a no firearms sign, but asked me to leave because I had a holster.

Deanimator
March 24, 2010, 12:58 PM
I find it interesting that citizen gun owners constantly tell each other to use discretion and to not make everyone look bad, but time after time I see LEOs who DON'T use discretion and common sense and who end up making the rest of them look bad. Does nobody tell them that what they do affects the public perception of ALL LEOs?

I had a local cop try to justify his 100% incorrect statement of Ohio CCW and open carry law by announcing self-importantly, "I'm a cop!" All he really told me was that he was ignorant, immature and petulant about his own ignorance in the bargain. He definitely lowered my opinion of the local PD a few notches, where I'd previously had a relatively high opinion of them. I started carrying a voice recorder days later and am never without one now.

Ithaca37
March 24, 2010, 01:25 PM
Keep in mind that we entrust our safety to fine LEO's everywhere, yet our government sees fit to pay them bottom dollar.

You could not be more wrong. Their job is not protect anybody. The supreme court has made this clear on several occasions.

Furthermore, the job pays ok for something that requires only 6 months of education and has fairly low admission standards.

Ragnar Danneskjold
March 24, 2010, 01:31 PM
America used to be:

UNLESS PROHIBITED, ALLOWED

now it is

UNLESS ENUMERATED, PROHIBITED

I like that. Well, I hate it, but I like the way you phrased it.

ChaoSS
March 24, 2010, 04:46 PM
You'd better wear a disguise the next time. They'll probably make you remove your shoelaces too!Well of course, we can't start letting people bring machine guns into courthouses now, can we?

Grey_Mana
March 24, 2010, 05:25 PM
3 years of law school, a test, paperwork and a fee will let you carry your gun into that courthouse.

Whatever anyone thinks generally of police and courtroom guards, you should have a much lower general opinion of lawyers.

Spot
March 24, 2010, 05:48 PM
They let me go with a warning, after telling me that they alone get to decide what a prohibited item is.

Sort of like that judge who said, "I know pornography when I see it."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_know_it_when_I_see_it

Webbj0219
March 24, 2010, 05:55 PM
I think the issue was that the gaurd had a big head. Not man enough to admit he doesnt know. The thing I learned from years in customer service is to be firm but respectfull. Made my job much easier and the customers happier. You can stand your ground without being rude.

P.S. Not all cops are like this. Got pulled over while riding bicycle home from work, in Reno. The cop said I needed to ride off to the side of the road enough for cars to pass me. I told him that it was safer in the way I was doing it and that there was no law saying to keep to the side. I could tell the cop was thinking for a moment. Then he said He'll have to check that out. But for now to ride off to the side and stay safe. So as soon as I got home I looked it up and I was wrong. There is a law saying to ride as far to the right as you safetly can for cars to pass. Now I felt like the jerk. Was hopeing I could meet up with that cop again to appologize. Ive got nothing but good to say about the Reno police department. In all my dealings with them theyve always been really curtious.

wishin
March 24, 2010, 06:09 PM
Not too long ago while going through the security check point at our county courthouse, the detector sounded off. When the LEO wanded me he noticed my holster and motioned toward it. I raised my jacket to reveal it was empty and was waved on. My belt buckle was the culprit.

rmfnla
March 24, 2010, 06:15 PM
You could not be more wrong. Their job is not protect anybody. The supreme court has made this clear on several occasions.

Furthermore, the job pays ok for something that requires only 6 months of education and has fairly low admission standards.
Exactly; the LEO mandate is to enforce the law.

Since there is no law against carrying a holster anywhere it is frightening to think of these morons in that position, let alone that they are allowed to carry guns.

Deltaboy
March 24, 2010, 06:38 PM
Get their badge # and report them.

EmmyLou
March 24, 2010, 07:33 PM
after telling me that they alone get to decide what a prohibited item is.

Should have given them a lesson in non-delegation doctrine.

Officers'Wife
March 24, 2010, 08:27 PM
Hi Grey,

Whatever anyone thinks generally of police and courtroom guards, you should have a much lower general opinion of lawyers.

We get to lawyers in the Legal section. :)

While lawyers are an easy target, by and large they stay within the confines of the law and legal precedent. In an encounter with an attorney they are not going to be expanding the boundaries of their authority on the fly. If only because should they do so and are called to the carpet for it they do not have the concept of 'reasonable deception' as a get out of jail free card. They could possibly lose their livelihood.

Tinpig
March 24, 2010, 08:31 PM
I see cops protecting and helping people in ways that have nothing to do with enforcing the law, all the time.
It may not be mandatory, but many of them do it because they can, because they're good guys, and because they see themselves as public servants.
Why do we always point out the few jerks and never praise the overwhelming number of good ones?

Tinpig

divemedic
March 24, 2010, 08:36 PM
Why do we always point out the few jerks and never praise the overwhelming number of good ones?

Because the so-called good ones become bad ones when they do not turn in the bad ones, or even worse, lie to protect the bad ones.

Officers'Wife
March 24, 2010, 08:37 PM
Hi Tinpig,

Why do we always point out the few jerks and never praise the overwhelming number of good ones?

Mainly because for some reason the good ones seem compelled to make excuses for the bad ones. Giving lip service to evil is an evil in itself.

Tinpig
March 24, 2010, 08:53 PM
Well, don't know about "evil." Soldiers, Marines, Sailors, Airmen, Coasties, firefighters or police, people who put their lives on the line do have an ingrained and understandable tendency to protect others who do the same.

Tinpig

MR.G
March 24, 2010, 09:02 PM
I was detained upon entering a Florida courthouse because there was a S&W gun lock key on my key ring. I put my keys and other items in the basket and walked through the entry point. An officer examined my key ring, and the next thing I knew there were three officers around me. The officer with my keys approached me and said that it was a felony to bring a handcuff key into the facility, or to even carry one in public. I explained that it was a key for a S&W gun, and not a handcuff key. I would think they could tell the difference since they carry them. They didn't want to buy it, and were going to take me with them for processing. Just then their superior arrived to see what was going on. She looked at the key, told them it was for a gun lock, and let me go. Took the key off my ring when I got home.

ChaoSS
March 24, 2010, 09:03 PM
It's that attitude right there, Tinpig. It's the attitude that their profession is so dangerous that it makes them and everyone else in it special and above everyone else.

There are a number of good cops out there. The bad ones are the ones that good people experience though. Good people don't normally have large amounts of interaction with good cops unless something happens to them. Good people do often enough end up dealing with the bad cops though, and when the "good" cops protect the bad cops, it's easy to be fed up with them all.

ChaoSS
March 24, 2010, 09:05 PM
MR. G, you should have asked them to try it in their handcuffs.

Officers'Wife
March 24, 2010, 09:24 PM
Soldiers, Marines, Sailors, Airmen, Coasties, firefighters or police, people who put their lives on the line do have an ingrained and understandable tendency to protect others who do the same.

My husband has been stationed at Myers, Bragg and Campbell that I have lived on base. The soldiers I've met were professional enough that they would not justify illegal behavior from their peers. Mainly because they are wise and well trained enough to realize such behaviors threaten the safety of the entire unit.

Aaron Baker
March 24, 2010, 09:30 PM
Are you willing to pay more local government taxes to cover higher pay grades? Or are we assuming LEO's will earn a 4 year degree and accept a $35,000 yearly salary?

I, for one, would be willing to pay more taxes.

But I gotta wonder why you think $35,000 is so bad for someone with a 4-year degree. What do you think teachers get paid?

How about lawyers who work as public defenders? Those folks took a 4-year BA and a 3-year JD and they often start at $35k.

Is more money really going to attract better candidates anyway? There's a lot of real jerks who get their medical degrees or law degrees just for the money.

I think the right attitude is more important than the right salary.

Aaron

Officers'Wife
March 24, 2010, 09:42 PM
Hi ChoaSS

It's the attitude that their profession is so dangerous that it makes them and everyone else in it special and above everyone else.

Actually that claim is more reasonable deception. Police work doesn't even make the top ten of dangerous civilian professions.

http://money.cnn.com/2003/10/13/pf/dangerousjobs/

SharpsDressedMan
March 24, 2010, 09:49 PM
Sounds like they were caught in a state of stupid, and decided to threaten you with "BS", so they could still hold the upper hand.................

cassandrasdaddy
March 24, 2010, 10:39 PM
this ^

Zoidberg523
March 25, 2010, 01:10 AM
people charged with the protection of others should not be given slack, or leeway. This is the problem. How would you feel if your life was being guarded by "rookies just getting their feet wet". Not comforting. Put them out beating the street to get some experience.
I'm a welding supervisor. We don't put new bee's out in the field wleding structural steel on high rises, school, etc. They are in the shop, learning, being taught, correct procedure, right, wrong, etc. Not until they have proven themselves with out fault, do they get to go out to the field and put their skills to the test and people lives at risk, should they not perform well.
This should be the same with LE, who's job it is to judge who and what is safe, dangerous, etc.

Are you giving an example of something that is not comforting, or are you actually suggesting that police gain experience on the beat, where they may be called upon to save a civilian's life? Because if you are indeed suggesting the latter, then you are contradicting yourself - a courthouse is the equivalent of a welding shop, where police learn their trade, as welders do. :scrutiny:

If you meant the former, then disregard my message.

Tinpig
March 25, 2010, 09:02 AM
Actually that claim is more reasonable deception. Police work doesn't even make the top ten of dangerous civilian professions.

http://money.cnn.com/2003/10/13/pf/dangerousjobs/

I see a difference between those who risk their lives for a paycheck, and those who put themselves in harm's way for their country or their community.

Next time you have a serious problem call 911 and see how many lumberjacks and Bering Sea crabbers show up.:)

Tinpig

IdahoLT1
March 25, 2010, 09:02 AM
It's not based on magnetism. It's based on an interruption of a electronic field produced by the search coil. All the metal has to be is able to do is conduct an electric current.


A basic metal detector has one coil that creates an alternating magnetic field. When a metal object comes in contact with this field, an eddy current is induced into the object and creates its own magnetic field around the object. Another coil in the metal detector senses this separate magnetic field and goes off.

Some metal detectors use an induction balance system. It uses two electrically balanced coils that become unbalanced when a metal objects is in its vicinity. They are able to detect different types of metals because most metals have a different phase response when it conducts electricity. Their disadvantage is that it has a much lower sensitivity than other designs.

Modern metal detectors use a pulse induction, which pulses a high voltage current into the ground. It measures this voltage until it reaches 0 and times it. If metal is in the path, the metal will conduct the electricity, which will take longer to reach zero. The metal detectors senses this delay and goes off.

Deanimator
March 25, 2010, 10:20 AM
I see cops protecting and helping people in ways that have nothing to do with enforcing the law, all the time.
It may not be mandatory, but many of them do it because they can, because they're good guys, and because they see themselves as public servants.
I've seen cops deny police services on the basis of race.

I've seen cops volunteer to check out a screaming woman call after their shift was over because park rangers wouldn't.

I don't have ANY control over which of them I'm going to encounter, or more importantly, which of them CHOOSE to encounter ME.

Why do we always point out the few jerks and never praise the overwhelming number of good ones?
Because the "few jerks" can cause you to lose your liberty and your life. Do a Google search on "Danziger Bridge New Orleans".

And as somebody else has pointed out, the "good ones" NEVER seem to "rein in" the bad ones. They won't even testify against them unless internal affairs (where there is one and it's on the up and up) or the prosecutor or FBI has something on THEM to make them flip.

When you have that degree of power over somebody's freedom and very life, I expect you to be squeaky clean, and to do EVERYTHING possible to make sure that your co-workers are too. Otherwise, you're part of the problem, NOT the solution.

ozarkgunner
March 25, 2010, 01:08 PM
Per haps working the "beat" was not the correct term. I mean they, as with any other profession. New "beat" cops get put with a training supervisor, correct? To be shown proper procedure and such. Two new "recruits" working the metal detector at the court house, and making things up as they go along cause they don't know, or think they know, is like handing a scalpel to a new med school grad, and letting them have free will in an OR. It wouldn't happen. Just like SWAT teams and such. No new cadets there. Seasoned LEO with some sort of proven track record. Newly graduated cadets flying solo are the some of the ones that cause problems. Lack of experience and training cause problems world wide in every proffesion out there. Some with deadly consequences.
Officers on the street respond to calls or intervene when something does not look right. So not everyone has to deal with them. Officers manning the door and metal detector, deal with everyone walking in. So they should have more training, I feel. On the street, innocent people can run, hide, etc. In a court house, not so much. So the people deciding who and what gets in, should know exactly what they are talking about, not making it up as they go along, and "enforcing" their will on normal, law abiding citizens.
I review Missouri's CCW regs regularly, and no where in them does it say that holsters cannot be brought or carried into court houses or any federal building.

The closest situation I've come to like this, I don't remember where or when, but I was passing into a secure area, and the guard at the metal detector wasn't going to let me in and have my keys, because of my key chain. They are on an aluminum caribener. I asked why, and she said that the caribener could be used as "knuckles". I told her to keep it, not a big deal to me, I have more in my truck. It wasn't a big deal to me, at the time, but just an example of how they can and will make it up as they go along. Had some thing like that happened to me now, I would have asked if she wanted my shoes too, as I could throw them at some one, or my belt cause I could use it to choke some one or swing like a whip.
Next we'll be having to disrobe and put on hospital gowns. Oh wait, they have strings on them to tie with. Potentially dangerous weapon???????????????????

nitetrane98
March 25, 2010, 01:28 PM
Never been around Special Forces/ Elite Forces units I take it

I don't think that you intended to do so, but if you consider those examples to be lower echelon employees then have at it. I certainly do not. The terms "special" and "elite" are used fora reason. I suppose if you want to consider paygrade to determine echelon I can see your point. I'm fully aware that these types are encouraged to improvise if the mission calls for it. But generally speaking any mission is planned to the finest point. Usually not a whole lot of winging it going on. These plans are generally good until the first round is fired.

Officers'Wife
March 25, 2010, 01:49 PM
I don't think that you intended to do so, but if you consider those examples to be lower echelon employees then have at it. I certainly do not.

Nor do I, but the original poster made a blanket statement and elite forces is the natural foil to that blanket. Further, LEO's should be held to the standards of the military elite in mission rather than the grunt considering the impact their decisions have on the public and individual.

BTW- the context of the answer was whether armed forces personnel would cover up a violation of ROE not the differences in mission or the decision processes involved. I know it's your way but it's impolite to attempt to put words in people's mouths. Leave the reasonable deception in the field with your friends and watch your manners in polite company. Thank you.

Werewolf
March 25, 2010, 05:24 PM
Sounds like they were caught in a state of stupid, and decided to threaten you with "BS", so they could still hold the upper hand.................

Sounds like they were caught in a state of stupid, and decided to threaten you with "Pelosi", so they could still hold the upper hand...

There...
Fixed if for ya.

nitetrane98
March 25, 2010, 06:06 PM
Nor do I, but the original poster made a blanket statement and elite forces is the natural foil to that blanket. Further, LEO's should be held to the standards of the military elite in mission rather than the grunt considering the impact their decisions have on the public and individual.

BTW- the context of the answer was whether armed forces personnel would cover up a violation of ROE not the differences in mission or the decision processes involved. I know it's your way but it's impolite to attempt to put words in people's mouths. Leave the reasonable deception in the field with your friends and watch your manners in polite company. Thank you.

We are obviously not communicating. I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. What precisely is "my way" and what is the "reasonable deception" of which you speak? Maybe you could PM me with a list of grievances re: my breaches of etiquette in polite company?

ChaoSS
March 26, 2010, 12:08 AM
I see a difference between those who risk their lives for a paycheck, and those who put themselves in harm's way for their country or their community.

Next time you have a serious problem call 911 and see how many lumberjacks and Bering Sea crabbers show up.

Tinpig This is exactly why the "good" cops ought to be protecting us from the bad ones. When the people charged with protecting our freedoms are the ones taking it away from us, it makes it all the worse, and all the more important for the good guys to not have the backs of the bad guys.

svaz
March 26, 2010, 05:20 PM
I told them that if they could find the statute that listed a leather holster as an illegal item, I would put the cuffs on myself.

Classic! :D

Hann
March 26, 2010, 06:12 PM
Once I walked into the Georgia State Capitol building in Atlanta wearing a pair of steel toed shoes (not boots, shoes). I went through the detector, beeped, went back through, beeped again, took my belt off, beeped again. At this point I'm turning red as I'm holding up the line and the Staties working the line are getting nervous/annoyed (not sure which). Finally I remembered it was the shoes and laughed. I took them off, one officer wanded them and tapped on it with her wand, I sent them through the scanner. We all had a big laugh about it (4-5 officers, me and my wife). Most of these people are just that, people. =)

Deanimator
March 26, 2010, 08:00 PM
Next time you have a serious problem call 911 and see how many lumberjacks and Bering Sea crabbers show up.
Depending upon who and where you are, see how many cops show up.

I've personally witnessed cops turn around and leave when they learned that the perpetrators were White kids in a newly Black neighborhood.

When I moved to the Cleveland area in 1986, cops here refused to respond to multiple calls from a Black woman and her children, trapped in their home by a drunken mob of rock, bottle and fireworks throwing Whites. They only responded after a friend of the family showed up and fired his 12ga. pump shotgun into the mob. They of course arrested the friend and no one in the mob. The friend walked after the 911 tapes of the cops joking about the woman's peril were played in court.


Police have no legal duty to protect individuals
Police have no legal liability when they fail to protect individuals.
99% of the time, police have no physical ability to protect individuals.

If you have a "serious problem" RIGHT NOW, you're going to protect yourself, or you're not going to get protected AT ALL.

Tinpig
March 27, 2010, 10:57 AM
Deanimator-
First, I'm not a cop and never have been. Second, I know there are bad cops, just like there are bad everything else.
All I'm saying is, there are some very good ones, too, and they get very little attention. Here's one:

An Angel in Blue
By Brian McGrory
Boston Globe / March 26, 2010

It began amid Monday’s downpour, which ended a weekend of downpours. In Dorchester, 78-year-old Joan McCoy carefully maneuvered her basement steps, stopped in a state of disbelief on the landing, and gazed at more than a foot of water swishing around her basement floor.

McCoy didn’t know what to do. Her heat was out. The rain was pounding against the windows, and the basement was filling fast.

So, in an act of desperation, she picked up the phone and called the cops, asking for Dorchester community patrol officer Thomas Griffiths who once told her to let him know if she ever needed anything.

When Griffiths came to the house she told him about the flooding. There were several ways the story could have ended there. He could have flipped through the phonebook to find plumbers who were charging hundreds to help. He could have dialed up flooding specialists who already had a backlog of several days. He could have cited union rules, department regulations, the catch-all fear of possible litigation, and made his way for the door.

Here’s what happened instead: Griffiths descended into the cellar. He stepped off the second-to-last step into calf-high water.
He found an old sump pump and, for an hour, in full uniform, he jostled the wires, played around with the motor, and just about willed it into operation.

Sometime Monday night, the pump died from exhaustion and the McCoys woke up to a new flood. When Joan called the station, she was told that Griffiths was on his day off.

Within an an hour he was on her doorstep anyway. This time, he was with Brian Shea, a plumber from Local 12. They were there to get the heat back on.

When he saw the water, Griffiths called another friend at the Home Depot, who brought over a new pump that sucked the cellar dry in an hour. They got the furnace going and were gone — off to several more houses with flooded basements. The charge: nothing. Police at the precinct even pitched in to buy the McCoys a new pump.

This week, Joan McCoy sat at the kitchen table and proclaimed Griffiths to be her “angel.’’ Griffiths shuffled his feet a bit, said, “We knew the circumstances of the family,’’ and mentioned something about it being his job.

Tinpig

Officers'Wife
March 27, 2010, 11:04 AM
We are obviously not communicating. I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

When you quote people out of context then expand on the new context it proves a basic dishonesty and contempt for your fellow man.

Kaeto
March 27, 2010, 12:55 PM
Tinpig: That is a man I am proud to see wearing the badge.

Deanimator
March 27, 2010, 01:52 PM
Deanimator-
First, I'm not a cop and never have been. Second, I know there are bad cops, just like there are bad everything else.
All I'm saying is, there are some very good ones, too, and they get very little attention. Here's one:
My point is that I have ***ZERO*** expectation of being "protected" as an individual by the police, good, bad or indifferent.

You're as likely to be protected as an individual by the police as you are by a fisherman, a lumberjack or the commissioner of major league baseball.

The worst police department in the world won't protect you as an individual.

The best police department in the world CAN'T protect you as an individual.

I've seen the best and the worst that law enforcement has to offer and I don't entertain the fantasy that EITHER of them is going to protect me when I really need it.

Protect yourself when you really need it or don't get protected AT ALL. Anything else is at best a fantasy, at worst a despicable lie.

Officers'Wife
March 27, 2010, 03:57 PM
The worst police department in the world won't protect you as an individual.

The best police department in the world CAN'T protect you as an individual.

I've seen the best and the worst that law enforcement has to offer and I don't entertain the fantasy that EITHER of them is going to protect me when I really need it.

Protect yourself when you really need it or don't get protected AT ALL. Anything else is at best a fantasy, at worst a despicable lie.

Amen!

My only complaint is your lack of political correctness in the last phrase, the new phrase is 'reasonable deception'. While despicable lie is more accurate the courts have spoken.

Deanimator
March 27, 2010, 04:40 PM
While despicable lie is more accurate the courts have spoken.
The courts have ruled that LEOs may lie (NOT under oath) in the course of an investigation.

Claiming that you don't need a gun because the police will protect YOU as an individual isn't an investigatory technique. It's a psychological operation intended to deceive the gullible into being defenseless victims, waiting for "protection" which almost never comes in time.

Officers'Wife
March 27, 2010, 04:55 PM
The courts have ruled that LEOs may lie (NOT under oath) in the course of an investigation.

The courts have instituted being a liar as part of the job description. There is an old saying about part time liars. You know it as well as I do.

Tinpig
March 27, 2010, 07:56 PM
a despicable lie...
The courts have instituted being a liar as part of the job description.

Enough for me.

Tinpig

TargetTerror
March 27, 2010, 10:23 PM
Depending upon who and where you are, see how many cops show up.

I've personally witnessed cops turn around and leave when they learned that the perpetrators were White kids in a newly Black neighborhood.

When I moved to the Cleveland area in 1986, cops here refused to respond to multiple calls from a Black woman and her children, trapped in their home by a drunken mob of rock, bottle and fireworks throwing Whites. They only responded after a friend of the family showed up and fired his 12ga. pump shotgun into the mob. They of course arrested the friend and no one in the mob. The friend walked after the 911 tapes of the cops joking about the woman's peril were played in court.
Police have no legal duty to protect individuals
Police have no legal liability when they fail to protect individuals.
99% of the time, police have no physical ability to protect individuals.
If you have a "serious problem" RIGHT NOW, you're going to protect yourself, or you're not going to get protected AT ALL.

Do you have any references for any of that? I DON'T DOUBT YOU AT ALL! Rather, that is one of the best cases/scenarios I have ever read countering the argument that individuals don't need guns because the police will protect you. I would like to be able to use it in the future.

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