30 30 150gr hp for home defense

I've had a 9mm pistol for home defense with 147 gr hp's.

A police raid of a group suspected in home breakins in our neighbor city found all had body armour. I now have a Winchester 94 in 30 30 with 150 gr hp's by the bed stand.

Any thoughts?

Any thoughts?Yea, buy a CZ-52 pistol and a 12gauge shotgun. Practice COM shots with the pistol and headshots with the shotgun.

Good choice of rifle! Compact enough for inside use, hard-hitting enough to do serious damage, and it will penetrate up to a Level IIIA vest.

My pistol is a Colt 1911 and I don't own a shotgun. My other possible rifle choice is a 94 BB in 375 Winchester, but my wife won't shoot it because it kicks a bit harder.

With the 94 30 30, I'm very accurate and practice in an old barn at night. With a bit of moon light I can hit moving rats at 25 yards. I've also set out the floor plan of my house and shot targets pined up in the floor plan. I shoot about a 100 rounds in a practice session and am very serious about being as good as I can be. People don't give it much thought but if there is a break in, you will be under a lot of stress and the last thing you want to be doing is trying to figure out what to do and where to go. You will have one chance to both stop a bad guy(s) and stay out of jail.

Is there a better bullet than a 150 gr hp for beating a vest? Most factory loads are 150 gr sp and 170 gr sp.

And something else, no kids in the house, just my wife and I, and nearest neighboor is 250 yards away with trees and brush inbetween.

A question for anyone that knows...

Arent most vests(without plates) pretty trashed after the first shot? Or is that just a few vests?? If so, maybe an SKS would be better and count on hitting each guy twice in COM?

Maybe you could load up some of the USGI 30-06 163gr blacktip AP bullets for your 30-30, I think that would go through almost anything a civilian would have.

Your last sentence above negated what I was going to say. Just be sure you know which direction the neighbors are in all rooms of your house. 250 yards is well within killing distance of a thutty-thutty. Don't depend on the trees to stop a bullet that escapes your walls.

Otherwise, you're good to go.

PS - are there any walls left in your barn? ;)

I'm trying to get my shots in before the owner tears the barn down, during Christmas break.

Anyone have an idea for attaching a flashlight to a Winchester 94?

And about my barn range. Yesterday I used a dummy as a target, with a wig, a jacket, all made up to look like a bad guy with a gun. I learned one thing. If you are going to get any good at home defense shooting you should try it. A friend set up the dummy and I went looking for him. Was kind of fun, actually.

I have the same thing, only I currently have it loaded with 150gr. Winchester Power Points. Wanted the Power Point Plus's, but the store didn't have them. And I got the last box of Power Points. The regular Power Points seem to have more power than most factory loads anyways.

I'd rather have a Yugo SKS loaded with FMJ lying under the bed with some stripper clips than having to try to get to the 30/30 in the closet and get it out of its soft case. My C&R license hasn't come through yet though....

I think I'd take an AK or SKS over a 30-30 for antipersonnel use. I don't think there's much difference in terms of vest penetration and having a few extra rounds, quicker rate of fire and faster reloads are all good.

Maybe you could load up some of the USGI 30-06 163gr blacktip AP bullets for your 30-30, I think that would go through almost anything a civilian would have.


Would be bad news in a tube feed, spire points have the potential for a chain fire detonation.

With 30-30, it's fairly safe to assume we are talking a lever action tube feed here.


As for what most soft body armour vests are rated for, regular 30-30 will punch holes in most of them probably stopping with threat level III and IV vests. Most vests designed for stopping handgun rounds are gonna fail miserably when hit at near 2200fps by a 120-130grn bullet. No need for the 163grn steel core, it is likely it would be inferior to a faster moving 120grn bullet anyhow because velocity is a big factor in the defeat of soft body armor(having the bullet cut through layers before the vest can react or dampen the impact).


The blunt nose of a bullet intended for the 30-30 may be the only thing that gives it a bit of a handicap in punching through when compared to a spire point 7.62x39mm, more surface area across the front of the bullet upon impact allows for the vest to be a bit more effective in distributing the forces.

I am a little surprised that the admins are letting us discuss body armor penetration. With that out of the way:

A police raid of a group suspected in home breakins in our neighbor city found all had body armour. I now have a Winchester 94 in 30 30 with 150 gr hp's by the bed stand.

I have heard that many home invasions are actually drug dealers ripping off other drug dealers (and, frankly, that is what this sounds like), so it is improbable that YOU will be targeted by miscreants so equipped. All I can say is, if you want to use that rifle,
you cannot afford to miss, period. If you do, that bullet will go sailing through your walls and perhaps hit something or someone that you did not wish to hit. (Rule Four: Be sure of your target and what is beyond.) I think a pistol, perhaps augmented by a shotgun (if you have some distance and time to get ready) is the best bet.

Anyone have an idea for attaching a flashlight to a Winchester 94?This is what you need:


http://www.pachmayr.com/tacstar/images/flashlt.jpg


http://www.pachmayr.com/lymanproducts/images/Flashlights11.jpg


It comes with rifle and shotgun attachments. See here (http://www.lymanproducts.com/tacstar/index.htm) and click on "Tactical Lights And Accessories".

James,

We're not discussing breaking any law. If you are invaded, you are legally enabled to defend yourself and family.

Your Brother,

John

Oh- btw, Larry- I think the 150 grain HP is exactly the bullet I'd use in your case. If it's the PMC, I recall SOF tested it for terminal ballistics some years ago. You may be able to find the results.

The police raid turned up guns, stolen property, cash, credit cards, but no drugs. There was also a laptop computer with schedules and maps with a spreadsheet listing property to be sold. Armed invaders are not always restricted to the drug trade. A lot of recient traffic appears to be in credit cards.

I also take your comments about where a round might go, to heart. I have no close neighboors, but therein lies another problem. I'm alone with my wife and two dogs. I need a weapon that I am accurate with and is easy to handle in the house. I would like to have a wider choice but the Colt 1911 and the Winchester 94 in 30 30 is what I have.

I am checking out the idea of a shotgun with slugs. With shot, I'm worried about my dogs.

As you may have read above, I practice a lot and am far better with the M94 than friends with their shotguns and battle rifles. They do have their advantages and I am trying to learn by doing.

What I would like to find is a 12ga shotgun that is clip fed and has a good sighting system.

One question I would like to repeat. Anyone have any experience with flashlights and home defense?

Larry,

With many other tools in my toolbox, I have often kept a loaded Marlin levergun ready to repel boarders. It'll work just fine. I have also often kept a shotgun handy, but it will not penetrate Level II vests (though you still would not want to be shot with it).

See Preacherman's post for light attachment possibility.

John

Thanks for the hardware info for a flashlight.

Now, anyone used one? How will does one work. Are you making yourself a bright bull's eye?

Well, now that's another whole thread. There's a lot to be said on both sides of the issue, so I'd start a thread in Tactics.

John

Its pretty common knowledge that a 30-30, like most deer - rifle rounds will go through a vest. Picking it as your self defense caliber is bordering on paranoid, IMHO, unless thats all you have.

Don't miss. It will also go through the average person and out the wall of the house.

Saiga makes a clip-fed shotgun.

Externally, it looks like a hopped-up AK-47, but with a standard style buttstock instead of a pistol grip. I believe it has rifle sights.

Capacity is 3 in the clip, one in the chamber, IIRC.

Personally if you want a shotgun, I'd look around for a used Remington 870. You should be able to find a beater for around $100 and it will do everything you need. With an extended mag, it should hold 7 or 8 rounds of 2 3/4" shells.

Don't let the bead front sight fool you. I've been able to achieve surprising accuracy out to 50 yards using slugs and a standard bead sight.

If you play around with patterning loads, you should be able to find a load that doesn't spread out much at the distances you plan to use it. That would mean that the dogs were as safe as with a slug. Of course, neither the shot nor the slug will likely penetrate a vest. On the other hand, a slug might pack enough of a wallop to incapacitate without penetrating...

I still vote for an SKS or AK. You should be able to get a decent SKS for just over $100.

OK, now the last of my questions about an M94 for home defense while living out in the sticks with no neighboors closer than 250 yards, and then only two.

The question is sights. The stock sights are working ok but I have been looking at the ATN Ultrasight on the internet. Anyone have any experience with one?

5 round magazines are available for the Saiga. I've heard that 30-30 isn't that great of a penetrator (round nose). If you're really worried about this, go buy a SAR-1, bunch of hi caps, and 1000 rounds of ammo for $500-600. If you're on a budget, get an SKS and 1000 rounds of ammo for $200. 7.62x39mm penetrates like heck, it does not tumble or fragment. Also, I believe steel core ammo is available.

The old chicom steel core 7.62x39mm is on the ATF list of regulated AP ammo if I'm not mistaken.

Very hard to find that stuff still out there.


There isn't really any need for it either, most of the 30-30 loads should have zero problem defeating all of the threat level II vests and probably a good portion of the level III/A vests at defensive shooting ranges.

Even the expanding ammo should melt the kevlar nicely and punch nice holes in whatever it hits.

It would be a bad round for over penetration though in the event of a miss, same with most 30-30Win.

My brother has a Saiga. It's clip fed, relatively cheap, and reliable. The major disadvantage is the sights and trigger stink. The stock sight radius on the saiga is awful but there are aftermarket parts which can improve on this. I switched from his Saiga to a Winchester 1300 Police and my scores instantly improved.

The AK has it advantages, but silence of operation is not one of them. If you needed to be quiet while getting the rifle ready, the 94 wins hands down. You will probably win or lose big in the first 5-6 rounds anyhow.

I carried the 94 as a patrol rifle for some time, along with several others whom I qualified. I issued them Winchester 150 grain HP's for duty use.

My current is a SAR-1, which is a fine tool in it's own right. But I sure wouldn't feel naked with a topped-off 94 under my arm.

Speaking to the issue of ease of use we experimented in the barn yesterday. The time to bring the M94 to bear and fire a first shot, 25 feet and actually hit a 4 inch target was quicker with the M94 than an AK47 or any of several shotguns including a R870. The M94 shots were also solidly near the center. The others were all over the edges or clear misses by an inch or so. The little bit of time difference might be important, too.

Second shots take a bit of practice and are just a bit slower than a pump, so far, and really slower than an AK. But that first shot is much better with the M94. There is something about the M94 that makes it handy, easy to shoot and accurate at short range, even tracking a moving target. The difference is remarkable when when having a shoot off. Trying is the only way to learn and improve. Also you are much safer when have practiced a bit. In the middle of a dark night with your heart pounding is no place to learn. In my practice it is comforting to reach up and feel the hammer back and know, even in the dark, that you are ready.

Because of the ease of use and the first shot accuracy, I'm not sure I need an autoloader until I find one that shoots as well as this M94....but I'm looking.

It would be quite a bit of shooting before I got to the .30-30...(KP-90 Ruger, Mossy 12 Ga, then "The Garand"), but I keep Rem 170-Gr "Core-Lokt" soft points for my Marlin 30A.

If you are very familiar with the Win 94, comfortable/fast/accurate, etc. then "Run Whatcha Brung". The '94 beats a baseball bat every time.

Any thoughts?


AR-15 Carbine. You may never hear again after firing one indoors, but the same holds true for any of the rounds being discussed... 30 rounds to expend as fast as you can pull, prior to a 3 second reload, and its off to the races again. If you've got multiple body armored perps invading homes in your area (holy hell) its probably a good idea to have 2 or 3 mags loaded just in case...

The .223 cartridge especially, is perfectly suited for what you are talking about. It will penetrate all but the heaviest body armor with ease, and due to the light weight of the bullet, it loses velocity quickly when going through most building contruction type materials. Some tests have even shown .223 to penetrate FEWER layers of spaced drywall and sheetrock than typical handgun slugs. I would certainly expect it to be less of an overpenetration risk than heavier 7.62x39 or 30/30, and its got all the body armor penetration capability you need.

OK, the M94 isn't real "tactical", but it's a fine weapon. It will certainly do if you will do.

It will shoot thru any soft body armor. It will break down SAPI plates, but I really doubt you'd encounter other than soft armor on a Goblin. Chances are very, very low, to the point I'd be worrying about a host of other things instead.

Jim Brockman at http://www.brockmansrifles.com/ makes excellent sights for the M94, as does Ashley Express, XO, or whatever they're called this week. http://www.expresssights.com/

You're right, as Yoda says, 'Do or do not, there is not try'.

I wish there was a way to try out different sight systems. As you may have guessed, I like to try things out, and do the best I can with things I have before trying something new.

For home defense what's the difference in performance between 150 gr vs 170 gr and hp vs pp vs core-lokt's?

Here's an article talking about the use of 5.56mm for this purpose.

http://www.olyarms.com/223cqb.html

I agree with ttbadboy. If you are worried about engaging multiple threats wearing body armor in the confines of your home, 5.56mm is probably your ideal load. If you choose the right load you get a round that:

1. Will penetrate a Class IIIA vest and below.
2. Will produce devastating wounds in soft tissue.
3. Will penetrate fewer wall-type barriers then other rifle rounds.
4. Has very low recoil.

Check www.ammo-oracle.com and www.ar15.com in the ammo forum. Lots of good info there.

Then look at the options for your weapon: AR-15, Mini-14, Sar-3, Galil, Hk-93, FNC, SU-16, Daewoo, AUG etc.

Tons of options, all of which would provide a light package that would be plenty accurate for CQB, allow the optics (or irons) of your choice, and allow high cap mags (up to the 120rd Beta-C mags).

Any thoughts?

One......OVERKILL :p

I absolutely agree with ttbadboy and MolonLabe416 on this.

However, if anyone uses 5.56mm as a home defense against goblins wearing soft armor make sure you use at least a 20" barrel for maximum effectiveness and to minimize damage to your ears. I think carbine .223's are a bunch of crap.

But for poor people like me a 30/30 or SKS in 7.62X39mm with FMJ will have to do.

I really would like a hard cast +P type load in 30/30 for penetration, preferably with a FMJ, but I've never seen any. WHICH IS KIND OF STRANGE! since 30/30 is generally a hunting cartridge! I don't get that there isn't even ONE hard cast load out there! Makers are always trying to push handgun calibers beyond their limits, why not a decent penetrating load for a 30/30????????

I think carbine .223's are a bunch of crap.


While a 20" would be slightly easier on the ears, the edge in ballistics it gives isn't gonna make a bit of difference at indoor ranges. I've got a 20" HBAR and a 16" superlight. The 16" will still do over 3100 fps with a 55gr load in the right conditions, and all the weight reduction is in the barrel... meaning the gun balances pretty far back and can actually be fired with one hand in a pinch. It can be moved from one target to the next MUCH more quickly, and it can be gotten around corners with much greater ease as well. If I were going to pick one for indoors, or, outdoors <300 yards, it would be 16" superlight all the way.

That said, if you're gonna be using a 7.62x39 or 30/30, I think the mass of these rounds at indoor distances would be a bit much for 99.9% of perps no matter what they are wearing, and no matter what load you were shooting. Even if they are wearing very thick body armor and you hit them with a soft point, its still gonna break every bone in their torso even if it somehow doesn't penetrate... just my .02. Hopefully you'll never have to find out.

I really would like a hard cast +P type load in 30/30 for penetration, preferably with a FMJ, but I've never seen any. WHICH IS KIND OF STRANGE! since 30/30 is generally a hunting cartridge! My dad told me that the 30/30 should not use FMJ since (when it loads into lever-action rifles) the tip rests against the primer of the round in front of it.

He says that is why they do not make 30/30 FMJ. Is that right guys?

Logistar

Logistar:

Your Dad is correct:D