.308/7.62x51 for home defense?


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SpeedAKL
March 24, 2010, 03:31 PM
There have been many excellent .308 AR-type carbines released to the public recently (DPMS AP4, LWRC REPR, Armalite AR-10 variants, Fulton Armory Titan, KAC SR-25 EM, POF 308, etc etc), in addition to the PTR-91, FAL, M1A, Saiga .308, etc. Given their relative portability, semi-auto fire, and controllable recoil I can understand why they would be used as a HD weapon. Using FMJ would obivously have major over-penetration issues, but with controlled-expansion or soft-point bullets it would have tremendous stopping power.

Would you ever use such a weapon for HD purposes?

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C-grunt
March 24, 2010, 03:32 PM
Hornady makes a 110 grain TAp round that is supposed to be devastating and has little penetration.

TexasRifleman
March 24, 2010, 03:35 PM
Second the Hornady TAP 110gr. Excellent choice for something like this. Even though others will be along shortly to tell you how bad the .308 is for self defense I would argue that it's more about proper load selection than the caliber.

ny32182
March 24, 2010, 03:35 PM
.308 is over the line where I would really start to worry about over-penetration, so... no. Seems like a lot of everything (blast, recoil, energy) for across the room distances.

TheHighRoadDude
March 24, 2010, 03:36 PM
Unless you live in the wide open country and are worried about having to pop shots out of a window or something, why not a good ole Remmy 870?

DMK
March 24, 2010, 03:38 PM
I like the 155gr TAP myself. The 110gr seems to be a little shallow.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=40685&d=1149203874

rcmodel
March 24, 2010, 03:38 PM
Too much power for home defense use, even with varmint loads like the 110 grain TAP.
Muzzle blast inside a room or hallway will peel the paint off the walls and blind & deafen you.

Besides that, all the AR-10 platform guns I am aware off are just plain Huge & Heavy in comparison to the short & light AR-15 carbines. That's why the M4 type carbines have become the most popular SWAT Team weapon in America over the years.

If .308 AR-10's offered any advantage at all, SWAT would be using them instead.
But they aren't.

rc

TexasRifleman
March 24, 2010, 03:40 PM
Muzzle blast inside a room or hallway will peel the paint off the walls and blind & deafen you.

As will an indoor shot from many firearms.

Suppressors, aisle 6 :)

Z-Michigan
March 24, 2010, 03:49 PM
It depends.

Where do you live? What are the overpenetration risks? If you're in a city or typical suburbia, I think it's right out, even with the reduced penetration loads like 110gr TAP. Of course, a .223 is an iffy proposition in those settings as well.

What do you practice with? If you've been shooting an M14/M1A since 1960 and know it backwards and forwards, maybe it's a good choice for you. If you mostly practice with a .223 or something other than your .308 carbine, then the .308 carbine is probably not the best choice.

What threats are you concerned about? In brown bear or mountain lion country, the .308 may be quite useful. Against two legged threats, most people would be happy with a .223 (let's not reopen that tired discussion).

mothermopar
March 24, 2010, 03:50 PM
Can it be used? Obviously. Is it the ideal choice? Not so much.

THE best home defense combo is a 12 gauge (pick your weapon) with 00 buckshot. Nothing else really comes close.

Given that, I'd grab a slingshot if it was the only weapon available!

I'd worry less about muzzle blast, etc. than I would about potential overpenetration. I say potential because its not a given that you'll hit center mass.

Get a decent soft point bullet of moderate weight (light weight ones may not penetrate enough) and have at it. That's what I say! LOL

W L Johnson
March 24, 2010, 04:00 PM
One word, Loud
I have both 16" and 20" AR-10's and I wouldn't want to be anywhere near the 16" indoors.

jobu07
March 24, 2010, 04:18 PM
I think running a carbine course that utilizes an indoor shoothouse with a .308 AR-10 would be interesting and a good way to see how it handles in those situations. Especially with your ears on.

Honestly, touching one off indoors... Realistically? Is there much difference between a .357 and a 7.62? I think you'd notice the difference more with ears on than off. You'll be ringing afterwards no matter what.

TexasRifleman
March 24, 2010, 04:36 PM
THE best home defense combo is a 12 gauge (pick your weapon) with 00 buckshot. Nothing else really comes close.

I guess that explains why LE agencies around the world are dropping the shotgun in favor of the carbine?

The shotgun is a great home defense weapon, but to say that it's so superior nothing else comes close is quite untrue.

00 Buckshot may be a very poor choice as well if you have interior wall penetration concerns.


As for noise levels, that's bad no matter what you do unless you suppress the firearm. Here are some sample noise levels, they are all bad:

.223, 55GR. Commercial load 18 _" barrel 155.5dB
.243 in 22" barrel 155.9dB
.30-30 in 20" barrel 156.0dB
7mm Magnum in 20" barrel 157.5dB
.308 in 24" barrel 156.2dB
.25 ACP 155.0 dB
.32 LONG 152.4 dB
.32 ACP 153.5 dB
.380 157.7 dB
9mm 159.8 dB
.38 S&W 153.5 dB
.38 Spl 156.3 dB
.357 Magnum 164.3 dB
.41 Magnum 163.2 dB
.44 Spl 155.9 dB
.45 ACP 157.0 dB
.45 COLT 154.7 dB
12 Gauge 28" barrel 151.50dB
26" barrel 156.10dB
18 " barrel 161.50dB

Strahley
March 24, 2010, 05:03 PM
No way. 9mm, .45 ACP, or 12ga (no slugs!) for home defense for me

Hizzie
March 24, 2010, 05:04 PM
Another vote for the TAP round. Keep a set of Pro-Ears or other electronic muffs next to the bed just in case of a bump in the night. The enhanced hearing will help give you an advantage as well as protect your ears.

rcmodel
March 24, 2010, 05:10 PM
Maybe the bad guy will give you a time-out to allow you to get the Pro-Ears on, turned on, and volume adjusted properly on each side too??

If you happen to have a dead battery maybe he can re-schedule his home invasion for a later time too?

rc

ktn65
March 24, 2010, 05:11 PM
As for noise levels, that's bad no matter what you do unless you suppress the firearm. Here are some sample noise levels, they are all bad:

.223, 55GR. Commercial load 18 _" barrel 155.5dB
.243 in 22" barrel 155.9dB
.30-30 in 20" barrel 156.0dB
7mm Magnum in 20" barrel 157.5dB
.308 in 24" barrel 156.2dB
.25 ACP 155.0 dB
.32 LONG 152.4 dB
.32 ACP 153.5 dB
.380 157.7 dB
9mm 159.8 dB
.38 S&W 153.5 dB
.38 Spl 156.3 dB
.357 Magnum 164.3 dB
.41 Magnum 163.2 dB
.44 Spl 155.9 dB
.45 ACP 157.0 dB
.45 COLT 154.7 dB
12 Gauge 28" barrel 151.50dB
26" barrel 156.10dB
18 " barrel 161.50dB

Yikes! :eek: They all look rather bad!

Where did you get that data?

TexasRifleman
March 24, 2010, 05:16 PM
Yikes! They all look rather bad!

Where did you get that data?

No idea of the accuracy of that, I just pulled it from a site I googled. I saw several places with similar data from Google, what struck me was that they were all pretty close to the same from a pure volume level.

1KPerDay
March 24, 2010, 05:16 PM
No way a .25 ACP is as loud as a .308. At least for anyone as far away as the shooter. :scrutiny:

TexasRifleman
March 24, 2010, 05:19 PM
Found the site. There were several.....

http://www.freehearingtest.com/hia_gunfirenoise.shtml

Mp7
March 24, 2010, 05:30 PM
interesting. Hope this thread stays rational.
im completely with RC, so far.
HD weapons would be revolvers or glocks for me.
and 12g pumps. ( and u can have slugs and sabots, too)

I guess that explains why LE agencies around the world are dropping the shotgun in favor of the carbine?

SWAT is offense, with the advantage of knowing WHEN the battle starts.
HD is defense, with the advantage of knowing the place.

... waking up .. grabbing someting, asessing the situation by hearing,
and then react ...

is two different worlds imho.

gun fascination and tactical thoughts
.... i understand.

But a shotgun can be operated easily
by you and others ...

Its a Family waking up/ responding .. not a SWAT team.

( of course in a Z-scenario ... Saiga308 would be sweet :) )

cheers from here.
Mp7

Driftertank
March 24, 2010, 05:35 PM
No way a .25 ACP is as loud as a .308. At least for anyone as far away as the shooter.

Fired from a 1.5" pocket pistol, I imagine it would be nearly as loud as a .308 fired from a hunting rifle. The character of the sound would be different, but from a pure decibelmeter standpoint, they're probably similar...

mothermopar
March 24, 2010, 05:45 PM
Texas...

The reason some agencies are choosing carbines are various and have little to do with home defense.

Defense would insinuate defending... quite the opposite of an offensive operation (executing a search warrant, for example). If one is hunkered down or slowly and methodically searching in a typical HD situation, it is quite a different scenario than a dynamic entry. Actually, it is EXTREMELY different.

Different weapons for different purposes.

If I'm defending a small space (a room, hallway, etc.), I want a 12 gauge with 00 buckshot (my Colt 1911 on the hip to boot). I can gather my family and while they are evacuating or what have you, I can hold the fort... more or less stationary... until my blue cavalry arrives. The purpose of HD is to defend, to protect your family... not go out searching for the threat; but rather, shielding your loved ones from the threat.

If I'm performing a dynamic entry, then a smaller, easy to handle, lighter carbine is what I'd reach for. Something I can sling quickly to cuff a turd, and at the same time reach out and touch a longer distance threat.

One is better suited for offensive purposes, the other, defensive.

I work for one of the 10 largest LE agencies in the USA... we issue both 12 gauge 870's and carbines.

Of course, this is just opinion. I've participated in countless entries, and the rationale for my statements are based on my training and experiences. To each their own, but I'm certain the top 'gun guys' would agree that the 12 gauge with 00 buck is the way to go for HD.

DMK
March 24, 2010, 05:45 PM
. waking up .. grabbing someting, asessing the situation by hearing,
and then react ...

But a shotgun can be operated easily
by you and others ...Actually, I would have a much easier time operating a rifle than a shotgun since I'm more familiar with the former and get a lot more trigger time with it.

Sunray
March 24, 2010, 05:47 PM
"...major over-penetration issues..." Any .30 cal rifle cartridge has that, a 110 grain SP included. Mind you, it's the distance the bullet will travel after penetrating a typical house door that is the issue.
"...explains why LE agencies around the world are dropping the shotgun in favor of the carbine..." Who? Not all 'beat cops' are issued a shotgun either.

TexasRifleman
March 24, 2010, 05:51 PM
If I'm defending a small space (a room, hallway, etc.), I want a 12 gauge with 00 buckshot (my Colt 1911 on the hip to boot). I can gather my family and while they are evacuating or what have you, I can hold the fort... more or less stationary... until my blue cavalry arrives. The purpose of HD is to defend, to protect your family... not go out searching for the threat; but rather, shielding your loved ones from the threat.

That works great if your family sleeps together in one room. I'm working on the assumption that many people may have to move to get to a child in another room.

Hard to hunker down in bunker mode with a kid in another room and intruders in the house.

I don't WANT to go through the house looking for bad guys, but the reality is that it's pretty likely to happen that way. In that situation, 00 buck would be very dangerous it seems.

mothermopar
March 24, 2010, 06:21 PM
Texas...

How would buck be more dangerous than a high-powered rifle? The rifle has higher penetration and more energy... a rifle will go through a ballistic vest. Buckshot will not. Please look at the website boxotruth for real world evaluations.

As for missing a target, be reminded that in typical HD scenarios, you won't be firing more than 15, 20 feet or so. At that distance, buckshot spread will be minimal... we're talking inches. A good, moden buckshot at 25 yards will ideally pattern all pellets on an 8.5 x 11 inch sheet of paper. AT 25 YARDS.

As for 'hunkering down'... of course you'd need to move initially to gather people up. But moving down a hallway doesn't require a nimble weapon unless you're in and out, in and out of doorways in an offensive capacity.

Anyway, that's my stance. Don't believe me? Read some Ayoob (sp?), etc.

mothermopar
March 24, 2010, 06:26 PM
Additionally, if you've secured your family and are then attempting to clear a house by yourself with a threat that's already known to be inside, then you're a danged fool (not a jab, but a word of wisdom). You can't cover your front and back by yourself. That's why in LE and military training, you don't even clear a ROOM by yourself.

Get your family safe and defend/evacuate them. When help arrives let them worry about the rest.

RatDrall
March 24, 2010, 06:37 PM
People don't seem to read, learn, and change their minds. After numerous posts demonstrating that a .308 with the proper ammunition will fragment and penetrate less than their own handgun or shotgun rounds, they still post "No way man .308 will go through your brick walls, a car, the house across the street and kill all of your neighbors". What is the point of joining these discussions if you ignore everything else written and leave just as ignorant as you were when you came in?

I wouldn't use the .308 just because of the blast and flash, but if all I had was a FAL I would load up with the light TAP round and worry about hitting the badguy.

TexasRifleman
March 24, 2010, 06:37 PM
How would buck be more dangerous than a high-powered rifle?

I didn't say buck was more dangerous than a high powered rifle, I said that OO buck and a shotgun were not significantly better choices.

The shotgun is simply not the only choice for this application. Rifles can effectively be used as home defense firearms. Any firearm capable of stopping a bad guy will have the potential to penetrate walls after hitting the bad guy. The idea is to minimize that risk and the shotgun doesn't give significant advantages in that area. I want to minimize the risk, I can't make the risk go away.

Would I sacrifice some stopping power in favor of a load that might not penetrate either the bad guy or a wall as well? Maybe in some cases that might be necessary.

TexasRifleman
March 24, 2010, 06:39 PM
Additionally, if you've secured your family and are then attempting to clear a house by yourself with a threat that's already known to be inside, then you're a danged fool (not a jab, but a word of wisdom). You can't cover your front and back by yourself. That's why in LE and military training, you don't even clear a ROOM by yourself.

Get your family safe and defend/evacuate them. When help arrives let them worry about the rest.

Unfortunately the real world doesn't work that way. You can't call the police every time you hear a noise or the dog barks.

In the real world home owners do have to move room to room to validate whether or not there is an intruder and to get everyone safe. Sure, once you know there is one you don't go after him, but you need to know for sure and if you have family in another room you simply don't have any choice but to move.

It's just not realistic to say "don't do it". You have to plan for real life.

benEzra
March 24, 2010, 07:05 PM
The reason some agencies are choosing carbines are various and have little to do with home defense.

Defense would insinuate defending... quite the opposite of an offensive operation (executing a search warrant, for example). If one is hunkered down or slowly and methodically searching in a typical HD situation, it is quite a different scenario than a dynamic entry. Actually, it is EXTREMELY different.

Different weapons for different purposes.

If I'm defending a small space (a room, hallway, etc.), I want a 12 gauge with 00 buckshot (my Colt 1911 on the hip to boot). I can gather my family and while they are evacuating or what have you, I can hold the fort... more or less stationary... until my blue cavalry arrives. The purpose of HD is to defend, to protect your family... not go out searching for the threat; but rather, shielding your loved ones from the threat.

If I'm performing a dynamic entry, then a smaller, easy to handle, lighter carbine is what I'd reach for. Something I can sling quickly to cuff a turd, and at the same time reach out and touch a longer distance threat.

One is better suited for offensive purposes, the other, defensive.

I work for one of the 10 largest LE agencies in the USA... we issue both 12 gauge 870's and carbines.

Of course, this is just opinion. I've participated in countless entries, and the rationale for my statements are based on my training and experiences. To each their own, but I'm certain the top 'gun guys' would agree that the 12 gauge with 00 buck is the way to go for HD.
Actually, the reasons many agencies have adopted semiauto-only .223 carbines for general patrol use (non-SWAT) are very applicable to civilian HD. A .223 carbine can be employed in any setting in which a civilian HD shotgun would be, including sheltering-in-place, and the carbine is just as suitable for the latter as a shotgun loaded with 00.

The shotgun offers perhaps the greatest single-shot lethality of any Title 1 firearm; the carbine offers less recoil, better capacity, and easier reloading, and (with lightweight .223 JHP's) somewhat less penetration in wallboard than 00 buckshot. The other thing is, a lot of people (including me) have a lot of experience shooting carbines and little to no experience/interest in shooting shotguns; if it comes down to shotgun vs. carbine, the best choice is the one you are most competent with.

If you have access to back issues of Police Marksman, check out the following article (this was 12 years ago): Roberts G.K., "Law Enforcement General Purpose Shoulder Fired Weapons: the Wounding Effects of 5.56mm/.223 Carbines Compared with 12 ga. Shotguns and Pistol Caliber Weapons Using 10% Ordnance Gelatin as a Tissue Simulant, Police Marksman, Jul/Aug 1998, pp. 38-45.

Having said that, moving up to .308 (even relatively light-for-caliber JHP) loses some of the advantages of .223 with regard to HD; a .308 recoils more, likely penetrates more, and requires a bigger, heavier, and bulkier firearm.

How would buck be more dangerous than a high-powered rifle? The rifle has higher penetration and more energy... a rifle will go through a ballistic vest. Buckshot will not. Please look at the website boxotruth for real world evaluations.
Penetration in Kevlar does not correlate with penetration in wallboard. Shotgun penetration in wallboard depends on shot size, but 00 buckshot does out-penetrate most civilian .223 JHP, though probably less than 5.56x45mm FMJ. I can't speak to .308 penetration, though, as I have seen no tests.

To my knowledge, there are no tests of light .223 JHP on the Box o'Truth website. There is a 3-wall test of various .223, pistol rounds, and buckshot here:

http://how-i-did-it.org/drywall/results.html

I am unfamiliar with any drywall tests of light .308 JHP or VMAX loads, unfortunately.

Bartholomew Roberts
March 24, 2010, 07:35 PM
Why are we even discussing shotguns? Did the original poster ask about alternatives to a .308 or rifle for home defense? Was the title of this thread ".308 or Shotgun" and it got changed at some point?

I'd be ****ing amazed if we had a thread discussing the use of rifles for self-defense and somebody didn't chime in with their off-topic $.02 regarding some other firearm being better.

I think I'm going to start responding to any thread regarding self-defense by telling people they should use a soup can in a sock because it only penetrates one sheet of drywall and won't harm their hearing.

And getting back on topic:

Would you ever use such a weapon for HD purposes?

Yes; but not my first choice and only if I had the appropriate ammunition. At close range is precisely where there is the least difference between an intermediate caliber and a full rifle caliber like .308, so I am increasing the size and weight of the firearm (or the blast if I reduce barrel size), I am going to get a longer split time between shots, and in return I am going to see a small increase in performance.

mothermopar
March 24, 2010, 07:47 PM
Sweet baby Jesus.

Texas, you said:

"I don't WANT to go through the house looking for bad guys, but the reality is that it's pretty likely to happen that way. In that situation, 00 buck would be very dangerous it seems."

Why?

The point of all of this is that I said that the 12 gauge with 00 buck is the premier choice for HD. Some of you disagree. That's fine. Your opinion is based on individual choices and levels of experience. I'm simply stating that it is widely accepted amongst those who know weapons that this pairing is commonly considered to be the best HD combo going. I'm stating nothing more than that... of course, we got off base a bit, but that's all I'm saying: most persons in the know feel that the 12 gauge/00 buck combo is the best HD weapon combo. Its not a matter of what is actually better for YOU, but for persons in general according to some noted authors (and fellow posters) I've read about.

As for my "errors" in caliber choice, penetration, etc. I'm no ballistics expert, so forgive my well intentioned point-making.

Point is that a typical 308 (FMJ, for example, the most common round) will penetrate at least as well as 00 buck fired from a 12 gauge through any media. *Note: I suggested earlier that the OP should consider a lighter bullet and/or one that is not FMJ.

*** How did we bring 223 into this discussion? Did I do it?!?! LOL

TexasRifleman
March 24, 2010, 07:48 PM
I'm simply stating that it is widely accepted amongst those who know weapons that this pairing is commonly considered to be the best HD combo going.

No, most don't say that. But in deference to what BR said, maybe best to start another thread on shotgun vs rifle so as not to derail this one.

But you asked a question about my comments. I said that 00 Buck would be very dangerous for some of the reasons that benEzra touched on above vs a carbine. Also, 00 gives a bit much over penetration, and while it's true that a rifle does as well, you have potentially 9 projectiles flying around a room instead of 1. Shotguns do pattern close together at close range but after the first impact they spread out in a bit of a random pattern. Box O Truth has the sheetrock stacked with small air space between, but that's not how houses are built.

#1 hardened Buck seems to be what I see recommended most for home defense use with a shotgun. "For personal defense and law enforcement applications, the International Wound Ballistics Association advocates number 1 buckshot as being superior to all other buckshot sizes" is a quote I see often. There are so many possibilities that it's silly to say that "a shotgun and 00 buck are far superior". That's simply not the case.

There may be situations where they are the best choice, but there will be many where they are not the best choice. They are simply one possibility to consider among many others.

I think there is a tendency to get wrapped up in the firearm type, and that is only part of the picture. The firearm is simply the delivery mechanism for the projectile so there needs to be at least as much time spent thinking about the ammunition as there is spent thinking about the firearm.

Bear 45/70
March 24, 2010, 08:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasRifleman I guess that explains why LE agencies around the world are dropping the shotgun in favor of the carbine?

Yeah, we wanna follow cops example on firearms since they fell in love with the Glock and 9 mm.http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r206/Bear-45-70/Emoticons/rolleyes.gif (http://s145.photobucket.com/albums/r206/Bear-45-70/Emoticons/?action=view&current=rolleyes.gif) Besides that cops never do home defense, they assault homes from the outside. A shotgun is twice the home defense weapon a carbine is. And over penatration is the issue that any rifle caliber over steps the bounds of.

C-grunt
March 24, 2010, 08:26 PM
I think running a carbine course that utilizes an indoor shoothouse with a .308 AR-10 would be interesting and a good way to see how it handles in those situations. Especially with your ears on.

Honestly, touching one off indoors... Realistically? Is there much difference between a .357 and a 7.62? I think you'd notice the difference more with ears on than off. You'll be ringing afterwards no matter what.
Had an Army buddy who did a course, through Blackwater I think, with a PTR-91.

He said he was the only one with a .308 rifle. He said he had slower times due to recoil and the size of the weapon, but stated the blast and what not was not much more over the ARs.

Girodin
March 25, 2010, 01:19 AM
[QUOTE]Muzzle blast inside a room or hallway will peel the paint off the walls and blind & deafen you.

http://www.advanced-armament.com/repository/product/silencer~762sd.jpg

Problems solved!

General Geoff
March 25, 2010, 01:23 AM
A shotgun is twice the home defense weapon a carbine is. And over penatration is the issue that any rifle caliber over steps the bounds of.

Completely false. Aside from the proof in this thread, see: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=513586


We tout ourselves as the logical side, but so many people insist on believing in something that isn't true (and indeed can be proven false). Why is that?

Girodin
March 25, 2010, 01:40 AM
It doesn't matter how many times people point out that a carbine can be less of an over penetration threat than popular handgun calibers or shotguns, people will continue to repeat the misconception that carbines pose too much a threat of over penetration. Some people are so convinced of things that they wont let facts get in the way.

06
March 25, 2010, 02:04 AM
What is your definition of HD?? Is it letting them get close and inside your home?? If so then your primary HD has failed. Mine changes from room to room from handguns to shotgun to my reach out and touch them '06. I keep different needs in different mags(ten rd each) from AP to hunting rds. If they are wearing armor then the AP will make a difference-even with ballistic plates. So what HD rounds do you want?? "TAP" fragmenting rds or something that will penetrate what ever you are aiming at??? If you are worried about "over penetration" that badly then load your shotty with bird shot. I will take my heavy shooter anyday--there may be two or more standing behind each other-- there may be one behind "protection" and you may need something to "remove" his cover.

Bear 45/70
March 25, 2010, 02:32 AM
Completely false. Aside from the proof in this thread, see: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=513586

We tout ourselves as the logical side, but so many people insist on believing in something that isn't true (and indeed can be proven false). Why is that?


Yeah, your logic defies all logic, because you want to believe it. Oh and just because somebody posts it on the net don't make it so. I suppose you also believe that to get deep penetration you have to have high velocity? http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r206/Bear-45-70/Emoticons/rolleyes.gif (http://s145.photobucket.com/albums/r206/Bear-45-70/Emoticons/?action=view&current=rolleyes.gif)

Bear 45/70
March 25, 2010, 02:33 AM
[QUOTE]

http://www.advanced-armament.com/repository/product/silencer~762sd.jpg

Problems solved!
That might work except they are illegal here. You can own them, even mount it on your gun, but firing a round thru it is a felony.

General Geoff
March 25, 2010, 02:39 AM
Yeah, your logic defies all logic, because you want to believe it.

My logic follows proven fact found by repeatable experimentation and evidence. How about yours?

Oh and just because somebody posts it on the net don't make it so.

So you are questioning the veracity of Hornady? I'm sure they'd like to hear about it. Or are you just alleging that the poster of said gelatin tests retouched the photo (without a shred of evidence to contradict the results it shows)? Also, said tests can be replicated by anyone with gelatin mix, a refrigerator, a .308 rifle and a box of Hornady TAP ammo. That's the point of science. Proven, repeatable results.

I suppose you also believe that to get deep penetration you have to have high velocity?
Not at all. Why would you think that?

Driftertank
March 25, 2010, 03:28 AM
I think I'm going to start responding to any thread regarding self-defense by telling people they should use a soup can in a sock because it only penetrates one sheet of drywall and won't harm their hearing

I'm SO signing up for your self-defence class....that sounds WAY more effective than my current 'PVC pipe wrapped in duct tape and pipe insulation' Home Defense solution.....:D

benEzra
March 25, 2010, 07:09 AM
Yeah, we wanna follow cops example on firearms since they fell in love with the Glock and 9 mm.
And Glocks and 9mm aren't good choices for non-LE civilian use?

Besides that cops never do home defense, they assault homes from the outside.
Semiauto-only civilian carbines are issued mostly to non-SWAT, and the primary mission of the long gun in the trunk/roof rack is not "assaulting homes".

Carbines with appropriate ammunition are suitable for any HD role that a shotgun with light buckshot is.

A shotgun is twice the home defense weapon a carbine is.
On what grounds? Terminal ballistics? Ease of use under stress? Hit probability? Capacity? Ease of reloading? Probability of rounds being contained by the structure?

The shotgun and carbine are pretty evenly matched. It comes down to personal preference and proficiency.

And over penatration is the issue that any rifle caliber over steps the bounds of.
This is provably, demonstrably, false for both gelatin and wallboard, unless you are talking about birdshot and not buckshot.

NMGonzo
March 25, 2010, 07:28 AM
.308?

Most platforms are kind of unwieldy for indoors.

Would you settle for .223?

Hangingrock
March 25, 2010, 08:30 AM
(No)

Art Eatman
March 25, 2010, 08:34 AM
:barf: Nuff.

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