[schapman43]

What are the differences? I used to own a EAA Witness in 9mm and absolutely loved the gun and wouldnt mind getting something similar. The CZ's in another thread look exactly like my old witness. Are the CZ's better quality?

[9mmepiphany]

the EAA is an italian copy of the CZ

the only way to get a true CZ in this country, before the "wall came down" was through canada. the italians filled the demand with their clone

[Justin]

I've done a compare and contrast between a Witness and a CZ. Generally the Tangfolio pistols are heavier and don't seem to be finished quite as well as the CZ's. Looking closely at the slide on both of them, you can see that CZ does a number of cuts on the pistol that make it look a little sleeker and cut down on weight.

[Kamicosmos]

I'd imagine the differences would be similar in a Beretta vs Taurus discussion.

From what I've seen, the CZ are the originals, and are generally better finished and built. And of course, for that, they're also more expensive.

[Walt Sherrill]

The differences between the two are more than cosmetic -- but the guns are both based on the original CZ-75 design, developed by the Czechs during the Cold War. It was that same "Cold War" that kept the Czech guns from being freely imported to the West.

Tanfoglio, an Italian firm, just started copying the design and selling them -- making changes as they went to simplify production. Because of the "Cold War" there were no legal ramifications to the Tanfoglio actions.

Tanfoglio makes almost all of the "CZ Clones,' including the Magnum Research Baby Eagles, the Jerichos, and others, including the EAA "clone" Witness line. The parts are just assembled in different countries. (EAA, for example, is an importer. not a maker.) The clones -- which aren't really clones (in the conventional sense of the term) -- are somewhat simplified versions of the CZ design. Some of the changes may actually be improvements.

There are lot of differences between the two designs, and only a few parts interchange between CZs and EAA guns (or the other "clones," like the Baby Eagle.)

Some mags interchange, but mags made for the Tan. clones often have to have the mag release notch enlarged a bit on the top side. (Some mags made for the clones simply won't work in the CZ -- they're too wide at the top, where the CZ mags tend to taper more.)

Grips don't interchange; barrels don't interchange. Most internal parts don't interchange, although some EAA parts (like slide stops and safeties levers) can be used in the CZ with modifications to the part or to the gun. Recoil springs interchange, but that's about it for springs -- as the other parts requiring springs are made differnetly (hammer, safety, trigger return, etc.) Pins are different, and the firing pin safety designs are different, as are the ways the firing pins are stopped.

Both guns fit one's hand better than most other guns, and are far more "pointable" -- just coming on target more easily than other guns.

Both allow either hammer down or cocked and locked first shots (unless you've picked up a "decocker" model -- in which case SA starts aren't possible. (The EAAs and some clones allow "safety on" while the hammer is down; but you can't do that with the CZ.)

Hi-caps are still available for both at reasonable prices.

EAA has had a poor reputation for customer service and warranty work, but they seem to be cleaning up their act. CZ's warranty and customer is right up there with Kel-Tec and Ruger, in terms of quick turnaround and friendliness.

If I were buying new and it was to be a primary gun, I think I'd get a CZ; but if I had other guns, and could be more forgiving about quick repairs (not that they would be needed), I'd let other factors enter into the decision.

CZs seem to be a bit more nicely finished and fitted. The EAA guns and the clones have many more suppliers of after-market parts and equipment. CZs are generally a bit pricier -- but good deals can be had with either if you buy used.

[schapman43]

The Browning Hi-Power also seems to be very similar. Where does it fit in?

[Walt Sherrill]

The Bronwing Hi-Power is a totally different design, that shares a general "look" with the CZ guns.

That "look" is about all they have in common -- except for a generally similar Browning barrel lockup design. Internally, except for barrel lockup there is NOTHING similar.

[BamBam]

Walt,
You sure know your stuff!

All I can add is that I have a Witness .45 and it's been a fine weapon. I chose it over the CZ because the grip is slightly more narrow.
I know that Witness quality can be spotty...guess I'm lucky.

[9mmepiphany]

the browning hi-power, more commonly known as the p-35, is a single action design that is the forerunner of all the wunder-nines...having introduced the stagger mag to pistols. it was introduced in 1935 and was designed by browning as an "inprovement" of the 1911

the p-35 was the most popular service pistol in europe. the designers at CZ took it as the basis for their pistol...so i guess the cz-75 is a "product improved" p-35

[Walt Sherrill]

While I have several CZs, I also have a Witness -- a Sport Long Slide in .45. It is a VERY NICE weapon. (I have a small gun safe bolted to the floor in our bedroom; it is easy to open quickly, in the dark. The Witness and an extra mag, and a Maglite spend the night there, every night.)

It took a while and a lot of work (both a gunsmith's and my own) to get the double-action trigger really nice on the Long Slide, but it is now very good. The SA trigger was pretty darned good from the start. Its my favorite .45. Because of the slightly smaller grip, I prefer it over the CZ-97B.

There are wonderful CZs and wonderful Witnesses (and Baby Eagles, and Jerichos, and Sphinxs, etc.) You've just got to shop around. Witnesses were (and still are) very popular in IPSC -- and junk guns don't hold up in that type of competition.

One of these days I'll probably get a Witness 10mm...

[gvass]

"the p-35 was the most popular service pistol in europe. "

Why do you think this?

It was never true.

The HiPower was general issue sidearm only in .be and .uk. For a short time-frame .at and .de police and/or military forces used it, but not exclusively.

And the entire east-block used different pistols.

Nowadays only the British forces use some HPs.

[gvass]

hi,
the Tanfoglios are much less well-made IMHO. The CZ75s frequent problem is only the breakage of the slide catch.

The Tanfoglios have many frequent problems, such as rifling problem in barrel, the locking lugs on barrel often too soft, and unreliability with some ammo is a great problem with their IPSC-guns.

The Italian quality controll is not up to Czech standards.

(You can get a perfect gun one day, and a miserable on another.)

[PCRCCW]

Actually the CZ is the most widely used Service Duty arm in the world or in the top two.....yes I have a list of the Military that uses them.....Ill find it and post it.

European Forces use a Plethora of side arms......including CZ, Russian made arms and others.

The slide stop problem is NOT A PROBLEM, CZ made a run of less than 700 guns with bad Slide Stops. Most were fixed before they were sent do distribution and the others have been fixed accordingly.

In general most of the info stated is true......Walt will never get an arguement from me. I have alot of respect for his knowledge base.

Witness guns have had a spotty past and IMO, it is partially deserved.

But I will say this...the guns as of the last year or two in production have been much better than previously mentioned. Most are very good guns and function very well.

CZ's are better guns IMO....more consistant in most regards. CZ's arent perfect...but they are as perfect as any other maker out there..including Sig and HK. The % of guns that comeback for any reason is very very low.

CZ's prices are going up a tad and will do so a little more. But even if they reach a "mid priced" gun....they are still a hard value to beat.

Shoot well...................

[gvass]

"Actually the CZ is the most widely used Service Duty arm in the world or in the top two..."

???
Not even the Czech and Slovakian police and military used it! They use(d) CZ83 in 9x18 makarov. (Hey guy, believe me, I live in the next country)
They are nowadays changing to the CZ75.

I do not know any large military who officially adopted the CZ75.

The Makarov PM8 or the Beretta M92, or the HK USP, SIG P22X, or especially the Glock is much more widespread in official use worldwide.
(The French armed forces and LEO contracted 200 000+ sigpros, so within 5 years the sigpro will be the largest number adopted military sidearm in Europe after the Makarov.)


"The slide stop problem is NOT A PROBLEM, CZ made a run of less than 700 guns with bad Slide Stops. "

Do not believe such marketing BS!

Since 1975 the only well known major problem _is_ the slide stop breakage. I think that at least some hundreds of 1000 CZ75s are suffering from this worldwide.

It lies in the construction, and more on the barrel hood design, than in the slide stop pin material. If the barrel hit the pin whenever it stops recoil, the pin WILL broke once.

[Sean Smith]

Owned both. CZ = better.

[Walt Sherrill]

I'll have to disagree with PCRCCW on "the most widely used" service pistol comment. But in his defense, I guess it depends on what you mean by "widely used," and "service pistol."

"Service pistol" does not, by definition, mean "military service." It can also be a duty gun that can be used by police or military, alike.

The CZs may be WIDELY used -- i.e., in place in a lot of different countries --but that use is mostly in small numbers by smaller police units. Only a few military units use it. The Turkish military uses it (but are moving to a different gun based on the CZ-75 design; the Czech National police use a variant -- the P-01, previously having used the 75B PCR (=Police Czech Republic).

Glock, SIG, and Beretta seem to have CZ beat by a wide margin when you include POLICE use. And there are probably more SIGs and Berettas in use in the US military alone, than there are CZs in "service" use everywhere else, combined.

As to slide stops being or not being a problem...

We have several thousand members on the CZ Forum, and some of them shoot a LOT. But, only a handful have reported the problem, there -- maybe five or six. Is that a representative sample? I don't know.

Slide stop breakage does occur, but its not so widespread -- at least in the US -- as to be a major issue (like slide failures in military guns and locking blocks were, for a while, with Berettas.) Slide stops also break on the EAA and Tanfoglio guns, too.

[PCRCCW]

I may have spoken too soon...I cant find my list of countries whos military/leo's are using CZ's....It was on THR and TFL at one time.

Its a hell of a list and I wont argue my points..without anything to back it up. Beretta's, Glocks and Sigs are among the most popular with most US agencies and military.

If the slide stops have been a problem for that long..I am unaware of it.

Since Ive been into CZ's there have been no CONSISTANT problems with any of them. Im an admin on the CZForum and have heard of problems with a couple. The 700 # was from a member of CZUSA's staff.....

I do believe it has to do with more current manufacture and DONT believe its Marketing BS......as you so state.

Ive had over 12 CZ's...and among my friends and family probably over 30 of them........

I have yet to see or hear about a broken slide stop.

If it was a problem?..it apparently isnt anymore.

Shoot well....................

[CZ52GUY]

...I can see where it would be confusing to the unitiated...


"The slide stop problem is NOT A PROBLEM, CZ made a run of less than 700 guns with bad Slide Stops. "

An assertion of limited impact.

Do not believe such marketing BS!

Since 1975 the only well known major problem _is_ the slide stop breakage. I think that at least some hundreds of 1000 CZ75s are suffering from this worldwide.

An assertion of widespread calamity.



We have one emphatic argument without conclusive evidence but which cites a source you hope would be authoritative...being rebutted by what would appear to be an exaggerated claim of defect without a hint of a credible source to back it up.

We do this all the time on forums, but for those of us trying to educate ourselves along the way, it isn't easy.

In the end, we have to consider the source, consider other anecdotal evidence (which is really the best we can do) and act accordingly.

In this instance, while there may be some risk based on the consistent claims (one post reporting this to be a limited problem, the other suggesting that it is widespread), there is no corroboration for a widespread design or manufacturing flaw based on the body of information I've been exposed to.

So...while those with concerns about CZ's may find the lack of conclusive evidence to support the idea of a limited run issue confirms their concerns...those who are CZ enthusiasts can take comfort in that the claim of 100's of thousands of "at risk" weapons is not backed up by any objective evidence either.

Another day at the office...

Best wishes,

CZ52'

[RBull]

Gvass wrote:
Not even the Czech and Slovakian police and military used it! They use(d) CZ83 in 9x18 makarov. (Hey guy, believe me, I live in the next country)

Gvass, your info is not correct. Although statndard sevice pistol of old Czechoslovakian police during the 80's was CZ-83 (and the army used mainly CZ-82, which is the same design, just in 7.65 Browning), both Czech and Slovak police started adopting the full size CZ/75 in early 90's. However the adoption was differing by region and branche. For example, many traffic police officers used the 83's till switch to P-01 and also, departements with slimmer budget - those outside larger towns.

I do not even mention czech and slovakian "SWAT" units, which were the first to adopt CZ-75 in early 90's, along with some foreigner brands. In czech units it was Berreta 92, dunno if Slovaks bought them too. Currently, all Czech police is switching to p-01's. I do not know about slovakian police, but there are some domestic (Slovakian) products in production for some time already, I would be not surprised if their police will be using them.
Like this one: K100
http://www.rehak-lov.com/img_d/k100.jpg

Regards,
RB

[gvass]

hi,
"In the end, we have to consider the source, consider other anecdotal evidence (which is really the best we can do) and act accordingly."

I work in Hungary as a gun shop owner + editor of a firearm magazine.
Therefore I get a lot of feedback from other gunshops and shooters, the CZ75 is quite widespread gun here.

The CZ75 was allways a highly regarded pistol here, but a lot of people claim that bug.

But make no mistake: it is not a _rule_, that every CZ75 slide catch MUST broke. I met a shooter (IPSC competitor) who broke 9 (nine) of them, and met with other guys who use the original since 5000+ rounds.

But back to ONtopic: there are much less Tanfoglios here, but their problems are much more numerous.

(3 weeks ago I was on an IPSC match where all 3 participants with Tanfoglios had problems.)

"Gvass, your info is not correct. Although statndard sevice pistol of old Czechoslovakian police during the 80's was CZ-83 (and the army used mainly CZ-82, which is the same design, just in 7.65 Browning), both Czech and Slovak police started adopting the full size CZ/75 in early 90's. "

hey, you say about the same as I did: the CZ75 was not a general issue sidearm, but they switching to it nowadays.

"Like this one: K100"

Please tell me more info about this model!
Caliber, trigger, mag. cap., manufacturer etc!

[Walt Sherrill]

I haven't heard that much about problems with Tanfoglio/Witness guns in IPSC here in the US, but I would think that most of these guns are greatly modified with after-market parts... Even if there were problems, it would be hard to tell the cause.

CZs are much more rare in the US, only in the past year or two starting to get a following.

[PCRCCW]

Interesting...please tell me guys. According to what Ive learned the CZ82 was the father of my much beloved CZ83. It was designed as a military sidearm. Its original caliber was 9x18 Makarov. The 32 or 7.65 Browning was the first incarnation of the CZ83 for public purchase.......

So did they make an 82 in 32/7.65 Browning....?

Or was it the first of the CZ83's.?????????????

Shoot well........

[RBull]

Gvass, if "novadays" means 1992 on, then we are in agreement ;)

Regarding K-100 (named "Grand Power" ... eeeh, wait a second, I have heard that before! ;) ), quick google search produced thise interesting links:

Manufacturer website here:
http://www.k100.sk/data/k100_en.php (http://)


test on slovakian server http://www.e-zbrane.sk (http://) :
http://www.e-zbrane.sk/K100/test.htm (http://)

detail pictures:
http://www.e-zbrane.sk/K100/galeriak100.htm (http://)

They say: Caliber 9mm Luger, mag capacity 15 rnds, barrel lenght 108 mm. Text also confirms, that this model is tested by Slovakian police as future service pistol.

UPDATE:
on the same slovakian server www.e-zbrane.sk is interesting comparsion of the OTHER slovakian pistol named ARROW, with IMI Jericho, check this out:
http://www.e-zbrane.sk/suboj.htm (http://)


Hope this helps :)

Pavel

[RBull]

PCRCCW, I believe that CZ 82 and CZ-83 are the same weapon manufactured at the same time, but marked differently because of the calibers used. Later, during 90's, the marking was unified to CZ-83 and in one of my older CZUB catalog, they offer it in both calibers under the designation CZ-83. I guess the unification was because CZ-82 was "military" pistol, so they can not sell it to civilian market, but that is just my speculation.

regards,
Pavel

[gvass]

hi,
thanks for the info. The first link is in English, the others are just for the images:-))

Interesting gun, but its rotating barrel locking method is not for my taste. (Colt All American 2000:-((()

[Master Blaster]

Broken slide stop lever on this board.

CZ says this is a common problem:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=51653

[Walt Sherrill]

When I asked them the same question, they said it WAS NOT a common problem.

Perhaps in this case they're referring to the 85 line, which does have a different slide stop? (The ends are shaped differently and won't interchange properly with a 75 or 75B gun -- I found from experience.)

[otomik]

Interesting gun, but its rotating barrel locking method is not for my taste. (Colt All American 2000:-((() rotating barrel guns also include the excellent beretta cougar, the sig/mauser m2, the steyr tmp, the Savage .45 (contender for the M1911 contract), MAB PA-15, Steyr-Hahn pistol, CZ-24. please don't confuse colt's profound idiocy to be a flaw with that general type of design.

[gvass]

hi,
I've shoot the TMP-semi (SPP 9 mm Luger), Mauser M2 (.40SW), Cougar 9 mm Luger, none of the were perfect. (12 o'clock misfeeds, failure to go into battery).

[PCRCCW]

Master,
If you read the thread..it says if you only use 1/2 of the 85's slide stop it will break...........

Id imagine this to be the case with any gun that you only use half of the parts designed to function as a whole part...........

It also talks about the PRE B guns in their original design having probs. This may be the case but I have 2600 members world wide in the CZForum who really dont seem to have a problem with them.

Shoot well......

[VG]

Actually the CZ is the most widely used Service Duty arm in the world or in the top two.....yes I have a list of the Military that uses them.....Ill find it and post it.
And, it's a desert topping!

So you can't find the list - how about naming even ONE military organization that issues it? Double points if you can point to a SINGLE picture of any soldier with a CZ75, or any official website that names the CZ75 as a service issue weapon.

The CZ was sold in military Rod & Gun shops beginning in the early 80's. This business about the Iron Curtain belies the fact that tthere was not much demand for them.

[Walt Sherrill]

The CZ was sold in military Rod & Gun shops beginning in the early 80's. This business about the Iron Curtain belies the fact that there was not much demand for them.

Actually, your argument above, which seems to imply that the Western restrictions on imports from behind the Iron Curtain had nothing to do with the lack of widespread sale of CZ, is wrong.

Fact is, Tanfoglio's "clones" exist solely becuase of the restrictions that prevented the importation of CZ guns. They stole the design, and CZ didn't get a cent from the theft. Tanfoglio filled the niche that would have been filled by CZ had there been no import restrictions. Tanfoglio has sold a LOT of "clones."

THAT economic fact does NOT belie (give a false impression) about the cause of limited demand for the guns. Indeed, the import restrictions meant that when they could be imported at all -- often through several countries, eluding the restricts, or when they were made as true clones, or "duplicates" (in Switzerland), they were VERY, VERY expensive.

I've talked or exchanged messages with several folks who paid $800 - $1,000 for their CZ pistols during that period. (And I'll will be trading some C&R rifles for one that an acquaintance paid almost $700 for in the late 80's.)

That you can now buy them, almost 25 years later for roughly HALF that price in greatly inflated dollars tells you something about the true COST of those "import" restrictions. The high price during the 70's and '80s (and later) had EVERYTHING to do with the lack of popularity and availability.

By the way, "Service pistol" doesn't mean ONLY "military" pistol. Military units do use service pistols, but so do police departments.

The Turkish military uses CZ-75Bs, and are moving to a variant of the same design built by Tanfoglio.

The state police in the Czech Republic used the PCR, and are now moving to the P-01 (another variant of the 75B PCR).

CZs are also used in Lithuania, Poland, South Africa, Zaire, Brazil and Zimbabwe -- in their military and in state-level police units.

The Greek Police Special Mission Detachement selected CZ75s and CZ85s as soon as they were available, and both of these pistol are still in use there after all these years.

Israel used them for a while and then moved to their own versions based on the simplified Tanfoglio clones. (Magnum Research's Baby Eagle and the Jericho pistol, to name two of several more.)

PCRCCW overstated case, but you also overstate the opposing view -- and ignore the reasons for their sparse availability.