[Tenn870]

I have an 18" barrel on my 870 (bead sight), with a 2 round mag extension, 6 round side saddle, and knoxx stock. What would be the best load to put in there? I have buckshot and slugs but I hear you want to use birdshot indoors to decrease over-penetration. Best load for indoor and outdoor situations? right now I have ... buck buck slug buck buck slug ... (00 buck that is). Thanks.

[loadedround]

You are correct about 00 buck and slugs being used indoors for a SD situation. Both loads will penetrate several interior walls and kill a person very easily. If strictly an indoor situation I would use nothing larger than #6 shot, It may not kill except at close range, but would be a serious attitude changer...quickly. For outdoor use, it depends on your situation. For two legged or smaller four legged animals(deer sized), 00 buck is ideal. For nasty critters that can bite it would be a magazine of 1 oz slugs. JMHO!

[Guillermo]

depends on your situation

I am not in a situation where I am too concerned about over penetration and might have to make a 30 yard shot so I use triple O buck.

When I lived in an apt I kept 7 1/2 shot in a 20 Gauge

It is all about anticipated scenarios

[Texas Gun Person]

I keep 4 in mine.

[wrs840]

IMO, Remington "Managed-Recoil" 00 Buck is the ticket for within-chez shotgunning with a 12ga short barrel pump. My wife's 20ga has Federal 3 Buck in it. For outdoor vermin? Depends on what you're shooting at and how far away it is. Since I'm in the sticks, I keep a 26" bbl 870 with full-power 2-3/4" 00 buck and a 30-30 levergun quickly handy. Slugs belong in the slug-gun you shoot Coyotes in the back 40 with.

Les

[erichtmobile]

I load #4 buck..the last 2 are 00 buck. I keep a 7 1/2 in the side saddle in case a warning shot is ever needed

[Al LaVodka]

What the hell's a warning shot!?

Around the house? AS you won't find any (.18) BB, my suggestion is you'll be able to find (.15) #2 shot if you try, but, otherwise, go w/#4 Buck

Al

[Fred Fuller]

It depends on your situation. Worrying about shooting through walls? Then your first concern is to be sure all your friendlies are under cover behind you before you start shooting. Having a good home defense plan is more important than worrying about overpenetration.

And no instructor I know of teaches or endorses alternating loads in a shotgun magazine. The simple reason for that is, under pressure you won't know how many rounds you've fired and what will be coming out of the muzzle next will be a mystery. You NEED TO KNOW what your shotgun is going to do every time you press the trigger in a serious situation.

But it's your house and your gun, you can handle it as you see fit...

Stay Safe,

lpl

[Nick5182]

I've got my 870 loaded with 10 rounds of #7 1/2 shot. I've got 20 rounds of 00 buck, but I am also worried about over-penetration.

[poor_richard]

I always figured that, "If it's too weak to penetrate the walls, then it probably won't do what I want it to do when it lands where I want it to."

LL has it IMHO. Know your target, your field of fire, and your gun.

I just obtained a 870 P vintage 1984 that the smith put a short stock on. I made some homemade spacers for it and took it to the range today for 100 hulls. Never looked at the bead, and hit everything I shot at. Thanks to Dave McCraken and many others here, I've learned a thing or two. One of them is the joy of shooting a shotgun that actually fits me. Feels good and looks good. Having a well fitting gun makes for better accuracy I think.

If I miss with a 9mm or .45, I'm thinking it will have similar if not worse results than if I miss with low recoil buck shot. I prefer buck, and have heard people tell me bird shot is better for HD. I just disagree. If you want to go with bird, then it's your choice. We all have different needs, and different circumstances. Only you can decide what's best for you.

Like the man says, BAUUR.

Think software more than hardware.

[76shuvlinoff]

My 870 is set up with a 2 3/4 chambered smooth bore slug barrel and 2 rd mag extension. Because of the two large breed attentive dogs and various sidearms at the ready I keep the chamber empty. ( a whole different argument).
I have little to zero concern for over penetration and the neighbors are yonder. The last rd in the mag/ first in the chamber is a slug the rest are 00. In the event I need to use the shotgun for HD there will be not hesitation in regards to shucking the slug out of the lineup or not. It will be used, penetration would be the whole point.

Just my .02, no warranty extended or implied.

[Jason_W]

At close range, certain types of birdshot loads will turn tissue into burger. I've tested a few different kinds on gel covered with two layers of denim, and I was impressed. The 3.5" #6 turkey load made a real mess, but you can forget about a quick followup shot. Federal black Cloud #BB had a maximum penetration over 12".

I also experimented with some handloaded #F (.22" dia.) buckshot. High pellet count and penetration well over a foot.

[Guillermo]

again, the anticipated scenario dictates the load.

The way my house is situated, the most likely possibility (which is thankfully unlikely) is shooting from the back of the house towards the front. Beyond the brick wall is a neighbor's house 35 yards away. The one window does not line up with their home and the elevation change is also favorable to minimizing the chances of collateral damage. With this in mind, OOO 3 inch magnum is the order of the day

Your mileage WILL vary

[poor_richard]

At close range, certain types of birdshot loads will turn tissue into burger. I've tested a few different kinds on gel covered with two layers of denim, and I was impressed. The 3.5" #6 turkey load made a real mess, but you can forget about a quick followup shot. Federal black Cloud #BB had a maximum penetration over 12".

I also experimented with some handloaded #F (.22" dia.) buckshot. High pellet count and penetration well over a foot.
At what distance were those tests?

[Jason_W]

Very close range. 15 feet or so.

That is the disadvantage of light shot. Anything farther than distance across the average bedroom, and those little pellets really shed energy.

[shockwave]

It took quite a bit of searching, but I finally found a box of No. 1 buck. That, and No. 4 seem to be the preferred choices outside of 00 buck. Can't think of any reason to get slugs, though. The handguns throw bullets, the shotgun throws shot, in my HD plan.

[Fred Fuller]

shockwave,

I first heard the "#1 buck is better" line in a hunter safety class while I was still in high school. Here I am almost 40 years later and I still haven't found a barrel that will pattern #1 worth a darn. I'd rather have a pattern of 00 that suits me than 'theoretically better' #1 buckshot scattered all over the place. YMMV of course.

lpl

[poor_richard]

Very close range. 15 feet or so.

That is the disadvantage of light shot. Anything farther than distance across the average bedroom, and those little pellets really shed energy.
Thanks Jason.

Personally, I don't think that 3.5" is nearly enough penetration. 12" sounds pretty good, but won't that be about what low recoil buck with do?

Conventional wisdom is that more is required. I will however admit that this is just knowledge that I gathered from the internet and talking to people, and reading, and listening. No personal experience as of yet.

[ronto]

Put the round in the right place and the only one who has to worry about "over=penetration" is the BG.

[Jason_W]

Quote by Poor_Richard:
"Personally, I don't think that 3.5" is nearly enough penetration."


I was unclear. 3.5" was not the depth of penetration, but the length of the hull. It was a federal 3.5" turkey load, #6 shot.

Here are some pics of the damage. Interesting results, and I had fun blasting the gel blocks, but I wouldn't think this particular load would make a good HD load, unless that was all you had when things went south. The size F handloads may show promise as they were the lightest kicking of anything else I tried, and the pellets still defeated 12+" of gel. though, then you get into that whole handloads for self defense debate.

[poor_richard]

I was unclear. 3.5" was not the depth of penetration, but the length of the hull. It was a federal 3.5" turkey load, #6 shot....
I was wondering about that. Figured you'd correct me if I guessed wrong.

[Bear 45/70]

The ultimate HD load is the same load used in Nam, #4 buck, AKA "Hamburger Helper".

[SnakeLogan]

12 pellet 00 buck. 12 8.4mm diameter lead balls that get 16+ inches of penetration in ballistic gel? Can't get better stopping power than that for HD.

[Bear 45/70]

12 pellet 00 buck. 12 8.4mm diameter lead balls that get 16+ inches of penetration in ballistic gel? Can't get better stopping power than that for HD.
And every pellet that misses goes thur the wall, like it was butter, and ends up God knows where. You need to find a trade off between a big enough mass for good penetration and low enough mass to prevent over penetration when there is a miss.

[Shawn Dodson]

The size F handloads may show promise as they were the lightest kicking of anything else I tried, and the pellets still defeated 12+" of gel. I suspect you didn't calibrate your gelatin blocks? The penetration depths you're observing appear unusually deep. For example, maximum penetration of #4 buck (.24 caliber) is about 9-inches (one or two pellets achieve this depth), with the majority of shot distributed between 6-8 inches.

[SnakeLogan]

And every pellet that misses goes thur the wall, like it was butter, and ends up God knows where. You need to find a trade off between a big enough mass for good penetration and low enough mass to prevent over penetration when there is a miss.

Missing will not be a problem for me at HD distances. And the walls and distance between my house an neighbors makes collateral damage a non-issue anyway.

[Jason_W]

"I suspect you didn't calibrate your gelatin blocks? The penetration depths you're observing appear unusually deep. For example, maximum penetration of #4 buck (.24 caliber) is about 9-inches (one or two pellets achieve this depth), with the majority of shot distributed between 6-8 inches."

Correct. I didn't calibrate. It's just a backyard project and without climate controlled lab conditions, I can only keep the factors so consistent. Temperature is my enemy with all the media I've tried.

At what distance were your figures obtained? As I mentioned earlier, I was very close, and shot loses energy very rapidly.

[leadcounsel]

00 buck

[SnakeLogan]

I suspect you didn't calibrate your gelatin blocks? The penetration depths you're observing appear unusually deep. For example, maximum penetration of #4 buck (.24 caliber) is about 9-inches (one or two pellets achieve this depth), with the majority of shot distributed between 6-8 inches.

What?? Max penetration about 9 inches for #4 buck? *Average* penetration for #4 buck is at least 12 inches.

http://www.brassfetcher.com/12%20gauge%20number%20four%20buckshot.pdf

[Leaky Waders]

Use bird shot for bird size targets...use buck shot for deer sized targets. If you anticipate a gang of pigeons agressively pursuing a home invasion - then stick to 7 1/2.

If you expect Big Bird and larger sized muppets that intend to do you bodily harm...then you may want something will real stopping power instead of relying on maiming power. i.e. buck shot.

My two cents,

L.W.

[Al LaVodka]

Swan Shot, as it used to be called, which is generally .15 and greater up to about .25 s/be excellent for close range (+-15 yds.).
Al

[Shawn Dodson]

SnakeLogan writes: What?? Max penetration about 9 inches for #4 buck? *Average* penetration for #4 buck is at least 12 inches. I relied upon Fackler's wound profile illustration for #4 Buckshot:
http://www.firearmstactical.com/images/Wound%20Profiles/12%20Gauge%20No%204%20Buckshot.jpg

Thanks for posting Brassfetcher's results. It compelled me to investigate further, as I could see no anomalies with Brassfetcher's calibration data that might explain the deeper penetration. Close examination of Brassfetcher's photos revealed very little deformation of the shot. Pellet deformation increases surface area and decreases sectional density, both of which would cause decreased penetration. I looked up MacPherson's Lead Alloy Sphere Penetration Depth data and discovered that MacPherson indicated that #4 Buckshot, propelled at 1250 fps, would theoretically penetrate about 14 inches in properly prepared and calibrated ordnance gelatin, provided the shot does not deform. Brassfetcher's results seem to validate MacPherson's theory. Whereas Fackler's wound profile appears to depict unhardened #4 buckshot, which were substantially deformed by acceleration and impact forces.

As a result of these findings I'm contemplating changing my 12-gauge home defense load from Federal LE132 00 to Federal F127 4B.

SnakeLogan, thank you for challenging my assertion. Without that I'd still be misinformed about terminal performance of modern #4 buck.

Cheers!

[Jason_W]

"Whereas Fackler's wound profile appears to depict unhardened #4 buckshot, which were substantially deformed by acceleration and impact forces."

That could explain my results as well. I'm using BPI buckshot which is very hard and didn't seem to deform much.

[SnakeLogan]

Cheers, Shawn Dodson. I love Brassfetcher's work, and he's a super nice guy too. He posts on THR from time to time.

[jmk2k]

00 buckshot if you want to get the job done right. If you are worried about over-penetration and your neighbors' safety, birdshot might be a better idea.

[Bear 45/70]

00 buckshot if you want to get the job done right. If you are worried about over-penetration and your neighbors' safety, birdshot might be a better idea.
You're one of those either WOT or stopped guys. Why not use a good in between load? Since bird shot is for birds and should never be used on a man sized target. Buck shot is for tough animals which a man is not. Go with #4 Buck. it is proven man stopper. Besides that why would you settle for 12 or 15 30 cal. pellets when the 25+ 22 cal. pellets will do the job and not over penetrate.

[jmk2k]

Since bird shot is for birds and should never be used on a man sized target.

You don't think a well placed round or two of birdshot would be enough to stop a man at close range?

[Shawn Dodson]

You don't think a well placed round or two of birdshot would be enough to stop a man at close range? Under best case conditions birdshot will probably do the job. But the problem in a fight is the bad guy's body positioning may present an unusually deep penetration path to reach vitals and a well-placed hit with birdshot in this situation can fail to quickly stop him. Ditto if you must fire through a light barrier (couch, chair, mattress, etc.) to hit him.

[Guillermo]

the lightweight of the pellet would not allow it to penetrate.

I would go for 4 shot in those conditions

[shockwave]

I first heard the "#1 buck is better" line in a hunter safety class while I was still in high school. Here I am almost 40 years later and I still haven't found a barrel that will pattern #1 worth a darn. I'd rather have a pattern of 00 that suits me than 'theoretically better' #1 buckshot scattered all over the place. YMMV of course.

Thank you for the comment, Lee. After a lot of searching I finally found a box and am looking forward to patterning the #1 and comparing it with #4 and 00. The target will tell the tale (and most likely confirm your observations). I've also ordered a real stock for the 500, as the PGO is too limited in shooting positions.

[Jason_W]

Has anyone tried loading #0000 buck yet? I gave it a try, but I couldn't get it to pattern.

Not that 0000 would be a good size pellet for HD, but I figured we're already on the topic of buckshot.

[Sheepdog1968]

Go to boxotruth.com website. Do it when you have time to read. There is like 3 or 4 hours of real world firearms testing on this type of issue. There are few words and many photos. I doubt you will find a more comprehensive site. My big takeaway messages from this were

1. ALL ammo (yes that means birdshot, 22's, and 223 - even the frangible stuff) will go through at least one wall in a house. Watching your backstop will always be a concern unless you have a brick or cement wall or similar bullet resistent backstop.
2. OO buck and slugs have adequate penetration for home defense
3. Birdshot and number 4 buckshot do not have adequate penetration for defense.

[Colton White]

4 buck

[mljdeckard]

It depends on which load of #4. Copper-plated #4 magnums pattern well in my gun.

Quit worrying about 'overpenetration'. Of COURSE it will overpenetrate. If it wouldn't, why would you expect it to stop a bad guy?

You are speaking foolishly if you think EVERY pellet you fire in a defensive situation will hit the target EVERY time. There is no such thing as the perfect gun, perfect load, perfect shooter, or perfect situation. When you are fighting for your life, NOTHING will go as planned. Like Lee says, you need to plan in advance to make sure that the people in your house know what to do, and try to configure your house so that your most likely fields of fire will be clear of friendlies.

USE OVERWHELMING FORCE. You know what's worse than overpenetrating a wall and hitting a good guy? Overpenetrating, hitting a good guy, and still NOT putting the BAD GUY down.

[inSight-NEO]

I prefer low recoil 00 Buck. Yes, it is still penetrative, but at roughly 1100 fps, its not quite as much so as "standard" 00 Buck. Now, if "all I have" is birdshot or something of that nature, I will use it. But, again, I tend to go with the former.

I look at it this way. Given the close proximity of an HD encounter, I am far less likely to miss with a shotgun vs using, say, a handgun. Is it possible to miss with a shotgun? Sure. But, keep this in mind...most effective handgun loads used for HD (and many which are not) can also penetrate walls quite easily and in general, are much harder to aim well (effectively). How many of us use handguns for HD? Im betting plenty. Thus, this whole debate seems mute at times.

Sure, there is nothing wrong with minimizing risk. However, its a calculated risk at best. When firing a weapon in the home, in the middle of the night or whatever, you will ALWAYS have risk. It simply cannot be eliminated as far as Im concerned. This is where practice, awareness and a solid "mindset" come in to play.

Oh..and particularly within the home, do not freaking fire at a "target" unless you are absolutely sure it has been identified as a threat and is within reasonable range based on your current skill/ability. In addition, pay attention to the background (what is behind the "target"). To me, stuff like this means just as much, if not more, than what my gun is loaded up with.

So, whatever you decide to load in that 870 of yours, just be aware of the positives and negatives associated with it. Almost every load out there comes with both. Then, go out and shoot and then shoot some more. After all, you cannot stop what you cannot hit. In addition, try walking around the house... getting used to the layout. Become aware of "danger" areas, places/situations where a shotgun would be optimal, places/situations where a handgun may be a better choice and so forth. As you are doing so, think about the "what ifs?". It doesn't take long and can only help. Now, you do not have to get all "militant" about it, but just try to develop a general plan. Just keep in mind that even the best laid plans have a way of going to hell real quick!

IMHO, this kind of thinking (along with practice) can take you much further than spending most of the time worrying about what HD load you are using.

[Manco]

I think without a doubt that among the commonly available 12-gauge loads the greatest overall amount of tissue disruption and devastation is done by #4 buck. At close range, 27 pellets will penetrate about 12" into the target, pretty much all the way through an adult person of average size, wasting minimum energy in the process. The reason that #1 buck is considered by some "authorities" to be the ideal load to use against people instead is probably that it offers some extra margin in penetration for large and/or obese targets, as well as a slightly longer range, while still delivering 16 or so larger pellets. #00 buck is also a favorite because of its wide availability and guaranteed penetration at virtually any home-defense range and even after passing through light barriers. Finally, slugs have their uses but are not as effective on humans as buckshot, so I'd rule them out unless there is a good reason to use them.

So how to choose? Well, it depends on what you want, subjectively. If 9 largish pellets is enough for you, then #00 buck is probably the most versatile load because it'll take down even the biggest/fattest dude at a decent range (in a large house); it's also probably the best general load for hunting medium-large game, serving a dual purpose. On the other hand, if you think that 27 somewhat smaller wound tracks will do the job better against anybody anyway, even without full penetration in some cases, then #4 buck is for you. And finally some folks may be willing to compromise with 16 intermediate-sized pellets. Getting hit by any of these loads will hurt...a LOT. :evil:

As for mixed loads, why? :confused: The battle is not necessarily going to unfold according to some predefined script, and you wouldn't want to have to keep track of what load you're going to shoot next, anyway (it'll be hard enough just to keep count if you can even do that). In my opinion, mixed loads are only useful with high-capacity automatic weapons, allowing you to mix in some tracers every few rounds, for instance, or achieve a combined terminal effect by alternating armor-piercing and high-explosive rounds with an autocannon for use against armored vehicles. Such a practice has no place in home defense with a shotgun (or any type of firearm, for that matter). If you strongly feel that you may possibly need to have slugs or other alternative loads on hand for certain unpredictable situations, then carry a few on your shotgun in a side saddle or speed feed stock as long as you think the tradeoff in ammo capacity is worthwhile.

[Deltaboy]

Since some bab guys haved move up to BA; I keep some HP Slugs in mine along with the 00 Buck.

[Al LaVodka]

I've never understood that multiple loads thing. It is just odd. If you aren't stopping someone with buckshot at Open Cylinder distances, I don't care what size pellets, just give up.
Al

[mljdeckard]

I agree. To mix your load is to assume that you know what the situation will be. When you are fighting, you need to know what that load is with every shot. Mixing it means you have added a step to the thought process. I could see someone having a different load in the sidesaddle in case they NEED it, but not mixing it in the gun.

[dom1104]

The answer in my mind always has been, and always will be 00 buck.

[Tenn870]

I'm gonna go out and buy some 00, and #4 buck and see how they do, great advice guys thanks!

[inSight-NEO]

I'm gonna go out and buy some 00, and #4 buck and see how they do, great advice guys thanks!

Might I suggest you try http://www.ammunitiontogo.com for your ammo. They have a good selection, when stuff is in stock anyway. For the 00 Buck, I would suggest grabbing some Federal LE Tactical Low-Recoil (9 pellet) buckshot. I use this stuff and not only is it easy on the shoulder, it patterns very, very well at respectable distances. Just something to think about.

If they do not have the LE load (which they may not as its apparently hard to get at times), maybe try the Power Shok Low-Recoil 00 Buck. Its essentially the same thing, minus the "flitecontrol" wadding. It may not pattern quite as well, but it will still do the trick. In either form, I love the stuff.

[AKElroy]

It depends on your situation. Worrying about shooting through walls? Then your first concern is to be sure all your friendlies are under cover behind you before you start shooting. Having a good home defense plan is more important than worrying about overpenetration.

This is another issue I have changed my views on. I used to advocate #6 3" Turkey loads because they were devestating on the media I was shooting. (Junk, fruit, cactus, old cars, etc) Many threads on the subject forced more study, and now I use a far more effective load that actually stops people.

We have worked out a disciplined plan as a family, everyone knows where they should be if the alarm sounds. My 1300 defender is loaded with federal Premium 2 3/4" 00, a streamlight & side saddle.

Like Lee says, work out a plan so that you can use something effective. Look at some of the Hog threads running, and you will find a few posts decrying 4 buck as just shy of useless against them. I want 00. Unless your family is assaulted by a watermellon, in which case I would go with the Turkey loads.

[Tenn870]

We got some pretty mean melons here in Maryland.

[Al LaVodka]

HD. Home defense. Close range. In and just around the house. In the defensive role. Open Cylinder. 15 Meter optimal pattern.

Swan Shot is better than acceptable. For hit probability/multiple hits and effectiveness in penetration without long-range over-penetration but with serious system-affecting energy delivery at the generally intended ranges it is also better than 00 buck for the many reasons mentioned, IMO.

Al

[Guns and more]

I go with #4 buck. 2 3/4".
I believe it is a good compromise between over penetration and ineffective.
your first concern is to be sure all your friendlies are under cover behind you before you start shooting.
I love movie talk.
In reality, your neighbors are in danger, so be careful when pulling the trigger.

[.45Heater]

Just put some of this stuff in there.... it'll get it done.:D

http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu33/jbmcheers/IMGP0759.jpg

[Manco]

Since some bab guys haved move up to BA; I keep some HP Slugs in mine along with the 00 Buck.

Well, I guess that's as good a reason as any if you feel you have to resort to mixed loads, but perhaps the following load would be a decent compromise:

http://www.winchester.com/Products/New-Products/Pages/pdx1-12.aspx

I'm not sure what I think of it overall, though...I'll have to mull this one over a bit....

[opie4386]

i use this................. http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/catalog1/product_info.php/pName/10rds-12-gauge-centurion-le-2-34-multidefense-buck/cName/12-gauge-buckshot

[wrs840]

Just put some of this stuff in there.... it'll get it done...

Surely you jest. (?) I can't think of a single rational reason to use 3" magnum 00 buck at self defense range, especially within a domicile.

Les