Virginia Concealed Carry Laws: I need a basic rundown


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WardenWolf
March 27, 2010, 11:28 PM
I'm from Arizona, and have a valid Arizona CCW permit. I am going to be flying to Virginia this summer. Virginia honors the Arizona permit, but I need a basic rundown on Virginia's laws, in plain English, so I know what I am and am not allowed to do. Specifically, I am looking for information on:

Car carry:

What are the rules regarding car carry?

Does the weapon have to be unloaded and inaccesible, even for permit holders?

Any other details, etc.

General carry:

What specific locations (other than the obvious ones such as schools and government buildings) am I NOT allowed to carry?

Do no-weapons signs carry force of law?

Is there "Duty to inform" during an encounter with an officer?


If there's anything else you think I missed, please share it.

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ar24095
March 27, 2010, 11:35 PM
http://www.usacarry.com/virginia_concealed_carry_permit_information.html


Issuing Authority:
Virginia Resident Concealed Handgun Permits are issued by the circuit court of the county or city in which the applicant resides. Please contact the applicable court for specific instruction on the application process.

Out Of State Permit Issue:
The 2004 Virginia General Assembly amended § 18.2-308, Code of Virginia, to authorize nonresidents of Virginia to apply for a concealed handgun permit. Nonresidents of the Commonwealth 21 years of age or older may apply in writing to the Virginia State Police for a five-year permit to carry a concealed handgun. The application shall be made under oath before a notary or other person qualified to take oaths on a form provided by the Virginia State Police, requiring only that information necessary to determine eligibility for the permit. If the permittee is later found by the Virginia State Police to be disqualified, the permit shall be revoked and the person shall return the permit after being so notified by the Department of State Police.

For more information and how to apply for a non-resident permit click here.

NICS check:
Yes

Permit Valid For:
5 years.

Permit Issued Timeline
The court shall issue the permit within 45 days of receipt of the completed application unless it appears that the applicant is disqualified.
Cost:
The court shall charge a fee of $10.00 for the processing of an application or issuing of a permit. Local law enforcement agencies may charge a fee not to exceed $35.00 to cover the cost of conducting an investigation pursuant to this Code section. The State Police may charge a fee not to exceed $5.00 to cover the cost associated with processing the application. The total amount of the charges may not exceed $50.00, and payment may be made by any method accepted by the court. Out of state permits have a fee of $100.

Requirements:
1. Applicant must be 21 years of age or older
2. There is no requirement as to the length of time an applicant for a Concealed Handgun Permit must have been a resident or domiciliary of the county or city where he or she resides.
3. The court shall require proof that the applicant has demonstrated competence with a handgun and the applicant may demonstrate such competence by one of the following, but no applicant shall be required to submit to any additional demonstration of competence:

1. Completing any hunter education or hunter safety course approved by the Department of Game and Inland Fisheries or a similar agency of another state;
2. Completing any National Rifle Association firearms safety or training course;
3. Completing any firearms safety or training course or class available to the general public offered by a law-enforcement agency, junior college, college, or private or public institution or organization or firearms training school utilizing instructors certified by the National Rifle Association or the Department of Criminal Justice Services;
4. Completing any law-enforcement firearms safety or training course or class offered for security guards, investigators, special deputies, or any division or subdivision of law enforcement or security enforcement;
5. Presenting evidence of equivalent experience with a firearm through participation in organized shooting competition or current military service or proof of an honorable discharge from any branch of the armed services;
6. Obtaining or previously having held a license to carry a firearm in this Commonwealth or a locality thereof, unless such license has been revoked for cause;
7. Completing any firearms training or safety course or class conducted by a state-certified or National Rifle Association-certified firearms instructor;
8. Completing any governmental police agency firearms training course and qualifying to carry a firearm in the course of normal police duties; or
9. Completing any other firearms training which the court deems adequate.


Required Documents:
1. A photocopy of a certificate of completion of any of the courses or classes; an affidavit from the instructor, school, club, organization, or group that conducted or taught such course or class attesting to the completion of the course or class by the applicant; or a copy of any document which shows completion of the course or class or evidences participation in firearms competition shall constitute evidence of qualification under this subsection.
2. Completed application.
3. Fingerprint impressions

Renewal Information:
Persons who previously have held a Virginia resident permit shall be issued, upon application, a new permit unless there is good cause shown for refusing to reissue a permit. The same fees and time constraints apply in the instance of renewal.

Fingerprint impressions are not required for the renewal of an existing permit pursuant to §15.2-915.3.

Change of Address:

Informing Law Enforcement of Carry:
The person issued a permit or in possession of a de facto permit must have the permit on his person at all times during which he is carrying a concealed handgun and must display the permit and a photo-identification issued by a government agency of the Commonwealth or by the United States Department of Defense or United States State Department upon demand by a law enforcement officer.

Automobile carry:
Loaded firearms may be carried in the passenger compartment in plain view or secured in gun cases that are unconcealed; trunk transport is also legitimate for loaded firearms

Places off-limits when carrying:
§18.2-308 (J.3.): No person shall carry a concealed handgun onto the premises of any restaurant or club as defined in § 4.1-100 for which a license to sell and serve alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption has been granted by the Virginia Alcoholic Beverage Control Board under Title 4.1 of the Code of Virginia, nothing herein shall prohibit any sworn law-enforcement officer from carrying a concealed handgun on the premises of such restaurant or club or any owner or event sponsor or his employees from carrying a concealed handgun while on duty at such restaurant or club if such person has a concealed handgun permit.

§18.2-308 (O.) : Private property when prohibited by the owner of the property, or where posted as prohibited.

§18.2-283: To a place of worship while a meeting for religious purposes is being held at such place, without good and sufficient reason.

§18.2-283.1: Courthouse.

§18.2-308.1 : School property. Exemptions to this statute include a person who has a valid concealed handgun permit and possesses a concealed handgun while in a motor vehicle in a parking lot, traffic circle, or other means of vehicular ingress or egress to the school.

§18.2-287.01 : Carrying weapon in air carrier airport terminal.

Alcohol and Drugs:
Waiting For Information. As always, alcohol/drugs don't mix with firearms. That's a pretty simple rule of thumb.

Deadly Force / Castle Doctrine:
Virginia is not a Castle Doctrine state and has no stand-your-ground law.

Open Carry:
Unrestricted under state law and becoming generally accepted.


Localities with Varying Laws:
The following information is provided as a general overview of various state statutes relating to firearms and other weapons.

Included herein are several statutes found in the Code of Virginia, which address transporting firearms through Virginia, as well as other related firearm laws, which may be of interest.

§ 15.2-1209.1. This section empowers the governing body of any county to adopt ordinances making it unlawful for any person to carry or have in his possession, for the purpose of hunting, while on any part of a public highway within such county a loaded firearm when such person is not authorized to hunt on the private property on both sides of the highway along which he is standing or walking; and to provide a penalty for violation of such ordinance not to exceed a fine of $100. The provisions of this section shall not apply to persons carrying loaded firearms in moving vehicles or for purposes other than hunting, or to persons acting at the time in defense of persons or property.

§ 15.2-915.2. This section empowers the governing body of any county or city to, by ordinance, make it unlawful for any person to transport, possess or carry a loaded shotgun or loaded rifle in any vehicle on any public street, road, or highway within such locality. Any violation of such ordinance shall be punishable by a fine of not more than $100. Game wardens, sheriffs and all other law-enforcement officers shall enforce theprovisions of this section. No ordinance adopted pursuant to this section shall be enforceable unless the governing body adopting such ordinance so notifies the Director of the Department of Game and Inland Fisheries by registered mail prior to May 1 of the year in which such ordinance is to take effect. The provisions of this section shall not apply to duly authorized law-enforcement officers or military personnel in the performance of their lawful duties, nor to any person who reasonably believes that a loaded rifleor shotgun is necessary for his personal safety in the course of his employment or business.

§18.2-308. Prohibits the carrying of any pistol, revolver, or other weapon designed or intended to propel a missile of any kind by action of an explosion of any combustible material; any dirk, bowie knife, switchblade knife, ballistic knife, machete, razor, slingshot, spring stick, metal knucks, or blackjack; any flailing instrument consisting of two or more rigid parts connected in such a manner as to allow them to swing freely, which may be known as a nun chahka, nun chuck, nunchaku, shuriken, or fighting chain; any disc, of whatever configuration, having at least two points or pointed blades which is designed to be thrown or propelled and which may be known as a throwing star or oriental dart; or any weapon of like kind by any person hidden from common observance about his person. Any of the enumerated weapons shall be seized and forfeited to the Commonwealth. A weapon shall be deemed to be hidden from common observation when it is observable but is of such deceptive appearance as to disguise the weapon's true nature.

Forms & Links:
NRA-ILA: Virginia Laws
Virginia State Police: Firearms / Concealed Handguns
Virginia State Police: Forms

basicblur
March 28, 2010, 12:00 AM
What are the rules regarding car carry?
For CC, AFAIK there are none? I know of nothing unusual AFA car carry in VA-I carry on my hip at all times, both open and concealed-VA is an OC state.

Does the weapon have to be unloaded and inaccesible, even for permit holders?
No

What specific locations (other than the obvious ones such as schools and government buildings) am I NOT allowed to carry?
Nothing comes to mind off the top of my head.

Do no-weapons signs carry force of law?
No-if you're "discovered", they can ask you to leave the premises-if you don't leave, you can be arrested for trespassing-not a weapons violation.

Is there "Duty to inform" during an encounter with an officer?
Not that I'm aware of-as a courtesy (and I live on the NC border where you do have to inform), when driving I hand both my license and CHP to the officer-when interacting with him outside the vehicle, I've not said a word.

If there's anything else you think I missed, please share it.
Weirdest thing that comes to mind in VA is you cannot CC in an establishment that serves alcohol for consumption on premises, but you CAN OC! We do not have "bars" per se in VA-we have restaurants that serve alcohol. As such, I've eaten way too much fast food rather than disarm at a restaurant. 'Course, I have on occassion practiced "discreet carry" in Red Lobster, etc-take my coat off before entering the building, black gun, black holster, sit with gun facing the wall, etc.

I did get into a discussion 'bout carrying IWB-in our town, they consider IWB concealed and treat it as such-guys in some northern VA towns tell me IWB is not considered concealed (they've hashed it out with the cops)-tread lightly on this one!

You might also visit VCDL (http://www.vcdl.org/)'s site-these folks do good work, have a lot of reference material, and stay after our lawmakers in Richmond (and elsewhere in the state).

WardenWolf
March 28, 2010, 12:06 AM
Thank you. That pretty much covers it. In that case, I will definitely be bringing my firearm with me. If I was just going to be there for a couple of days, I wouldn't bother, but I will be there for 2 weeks and would prefer to not be unarmed the entire time. The restaurant bit is problematic, though, because you often do not know if a restaurant serves alcohol until you walk through the door. What is the nature of the statute? In Arizona, it is a trespass statute, meaning someone must ask you to leave and you must refuse before you can be cited or arrested (so you always have the opportunity to correct a mistake).

ar24095
March 28, 2010, 12:16 AM
Also if you get on the Blue ridge Parkway You use to could not carry concealed. Your fire arm had to be unloaded locked in a case separate from the ammo but that may have changed with the new laws I need to look into that my self.

Lincoln7
March 28, 2010, 12:17 AM
If you are only visiting for a couple weeks, just open carry while you are here. No permit required and generally accepted by the communities. If you only have IWB holsters you can open carry them by 'virginia tucking'. Tuck your shirt in behind your holster/firearm to expose it. Popular among CCW individuals who go to alcohol serving restaurants who want to remain legal.

Lincoln7
March 28, 2010, 12:19 AM
I don't how of the 'Blue Ridge Parkway' thing. If it's because it's part of a National Forest, then a law recently passed allowing the states' laws take precendence. ie: open carry is allowed.

Craig_VA
March 28, 2010, 12:47 AM
Also IANAL but wanted to describe my understanding of our VA laws.
These answers are all based on the statement you will have a valid, recognized CC permit. Some of the answers are very different for folks with no permit.

Car carry:

Q. What are the rules regarding car carry?
A. Since open carry of a loaded firearm is legal in Virginia, even non-permit holders (not otherwise prohibited, such as felons) can have a loaded gun in the car and within reach. HOWEVER, that gun must be in plain view; State Police have suggested that on the dashboard or on the empty seat next to you is open and in view. A holstered gun is not in plain view when you are sitting in the car, and thus, in that situation would be considered as concealed. If you have a valid CC permit with you, you can leave your OC gun holstered while in the car. If you re in OC mode while walking around and do not have CC permit with you, as you enter the car, you need to unholster the gun and place it on teh seat or dashboard in view.
Please note that basicblur's answer about carrying on the hip only works in cars if you have CC permit.

Q. Does the weapon have to be unloaded and inaccessible, even for permit holders?
A. Reading the full law, there are all sorts of descriptions of having guns unloaded and locked away, like in the trunk. There is also a lot of language about being able to transport firearms only when on the way to or from the range. As I understand it, and in keeping with the OC and CC rules I describe above, this pretty much refers to folks without permits, except when properly in OC mode..

Any other details, etc.

General carry:

Q. What specific locations (other than the obvious ones such as schools and government buildings) am I NOT allowed to carry?
A. Prohibited at schools and on school grounds EXCEPT when driving on to the grounds to drop off or pick you a student, and you must stay in the vehicle.
Prohibited at churches during services unless you have a good reason. (Try figuring out that nuance... what is good reason?)
Prohibited in certain parts of airports.
Federal law on prohibited areas still applies, e.g. Post Offices, Federal property, military installations, etc.
Prohibited at courthouses, jails, and government buildings.
Interestingly, it is legal for valid CC permit holders to carry in the State Capital building. Many VCDL members do this each year on VCDL Legislature Day.


Q. Do no-weapons signs carry force of law?
A. They carry the force of law to the level that failure to follow them constitutes illegal trespass. There is no required standard for the sign (such as the 30-06 signage law in Texas). Also, even if there is no sign, if told to leave by the owner or proprietor of private property, refual to do so constitutes illegal trespass.

Q. Is there "Duty to inform" during an encounter with an officer?
A. There is no duty to inform in VA law. However, as is regularly discussed in this forum, you need to use your own judgment regarding what to say when in such circumstances.

If there's anything else you think I missed, please share it.

As has already been pointed out, OC is legal, unless prohibited by signage, in establishments that sell alcoholic beverages, BUT, for now CC is illegal in those places. Thus, CC holders going to a nice restaurant have been known to switch to an OC holster to go in. This law will change soon; legislature passed a correction this year, and we are waiting on the governor to sign it. NOt sure when it will be effective once signed.

WardenWolf
March 28, 2010, 01:04 AM
All right. Thank you. Since the "No weapons" signs and the ability to prohibit weapons are under a trespass statute, as they are in Arizona, that simplifies things quite nicely. It matters because, with different classification, it's possible they could simply call police and have you arrested forthwith, even if you simply overlooked the sign. A trespass statute means they must inform you and ask you to leave before you can be arrested. Basically, if I follow mostly the same rules I follow in Arizona, I should be fine.

Lincoln7
March 28, 2010, 01:05 AM
General carry:

Q. What specific locations (other than the obvious ones such as schools and government buildings) am I NOT allowed to carry?
A. Prohibited at schools and on school grounds EXCEPT when driving on to the grounds to drop off or pick you a student, and you must stay in the vehicle.
This is only allowed if you have a CC permit. Otherwise entirely not allowed on school grounds or school property(like buses)

As has already been pointed out, OC is legal, unless prohibited by signage, in establishments that sell alcoholic beverages, BUT, for now CC is illegal in those places. Thus, CC holders going to a nice restaurant have been known to switch to an OC holster to go in. This law will change soon; legislature passed a correction this year, and we are waiting on the governor to sign it. NOt sure when it will be effective once signed.
This law goes into effect on July 1, this year.

WardenWolf
March 28, 2010, 01:06 AM
Ah, excellent. I go there in mid-July.

basicblur
March 28, 2010, 01:25 AM
If you only have IWB holsters you can open carry them by 'virginia tucking'. Tuck your shirt in behind your holster/firearm to expose it. Popular among CCW individuals who go to alcohol serving restaurants who want to remain legal.

As I stated earlier-TREAD LIGHTLY here!
I got into this with a newbie at the "other" High Road (http://www.thehighroad.us/showthread.php?t=413967)-you might want to read that thread!

You IWB in VA, you "might" be legal, but in our little town you WILL be arrested (if you're treating IWB as OC where you shouldn't be CCing).
Now, our local cops may be wrong, but you did say you were going to spend only two weeks here, didn't you? :D

basicblur
March 28, 2010, 01:30 AM
This law goes into effect on July 1, this year.

Huh? Did I miss something? Has McDonnell signed it (I haven't heard of him doing so).
If he has not, we're "assuming" he will do so, but he is a politician and there are forces out there within the LE community urging him NOT to do so.

WardenWolf
March 28, 2010, 12:06 PM
Well, for me, there's a very easy solution if I want to carry in a restaurant. I'm ambidextrous with pistols (technically left-handed, but I can shoot equally well with either hand and normally carry my pistol on my right). All I'd need to do is pull my IWB holster out and move it to my left side, outside the pants. It may feel a bit odd, but it will be legal. It'll also be very obvious, given my concealed carry piece is a Makarov with a big honking red grip.

basicblur
March 28, 2010, 01:14 PM
Also if you get on the Blue ridge Parkway You use to could not carry concealed. Your fire arm had to be unloaded locked in a case separate from the ammo but that may have changed with the new laws I need to look into that my self.

I used to spend a fair amount of time on the BRP-my understanding (before the recent law changes) was if you carried a weapon in a national park, you had to have it locked up, ammo separate, etc, but you had to notify the ranger at the gate when you entered the park. Since there is no gate on the BRP (there are hundreds of roads tied into/crossing it), how the heck are you supposed to notify a ranger when you "enter" the BRP? Were you supposed to flag down the first ranger you see...I would not have taken that chance. You'd probably be told you were supposed to notify when you entered the park, and since that's impossible, you might have found yourself in jail pondering what an ass the law can be.

I've also heard many a discussion 'bout how there was no law against firearms in a national park-it was "park policy" that was being treated as law. True or not, I know the NRA and others are warning since anti-gun folks aren't doing very well with court cases recently, be aware of officials within departments setting anti-gun policies and having it treated as law.

Anywho...from a recent VCDL e-mail:

Firearms in Wolf Trap

Government considers lawn area "part of a building"

XXXX emailed me this. This is your government working AGAINST you. Petty bureaucrats ripping away your freedoms. VCDL is weighing its options.

I finally got a response from the NPS about carrying a firearm in the "lawn area" of the Filene Center at Wolf Trap National Park.

Apparently, between the Park Service and their Solicitor Office, they have determined that the lawn area is "part of a building".

In my opinion, this is quite a stretch, but I'm not surprised as government bureaucrats often do whatever they can to restrict our freedoms.

***********************************

Dear Mr. XXXX,

This responds to your e-mail inquiry about the recent Federal firearms law, now codified at 16 USC 1a-7b, and its impact at Wolf Trap National Park for the Performing Arts, located in Virginia.

Federal Law 16 USC 1a-7b generally allows individuals to possess firearms in a Unit of the National Park System, if such possession is also in compliance with other Federal laws as well as the laws of the State in which the park unit is located.

In that regard, 18 U.S.C. 930 is another Federal law, and it generally prohibits firearms within a Federal facility. Further, the term Federal facility is defined at 18 USC 930(g)(1) as a "building or part thereof owned or leased by the Federal Government, where Federal employees are regularly present for the purpose of performing their official duties."
The Park Service in consultation with our Solicitor's Office, has determined that the entire Filene Center, which also includes the amphitheater areas located inside its ticketed entrances, qualifies as a Federal facility under 18 USC 930(g)(1). To alert the public, appropriate signage has been posted conspicuously at each public entrance to the
Filene Center.

As to your question regarding firearms at private restaurants at Wolf Trap National Park for the Performing Arts, it is the Park Service's policy to defer to its concessioners to decide for itself whether to prohibit
firearms, as long as such authority is also authorized under State law such as at Va. Code Ann. 18.2-308(O). In the event that a restaurant concessioner in our park decides to prohibit firearms, appropriate signage will be posted conspicuously by the concessioner at each public entrance to
the restaurant.

Thank you for your interest in Wolf Trap National Park for the Performing Arts.

Duane Erwin, Chief Ranger
Wolf Trap National Park for the Performing Arts
1551 Trap Road, Vienna, Virginia 22182-1643

Craig_VA
March 28, 2010, 01:21 PM
No indication that governor has signed it, yet. I do not recall seeing any news reports that has been signed.

According to the VCDL legislation tracking page
http://www.vcdl.org/static/2010leg.html
HB505

Concealed handguns; restaurants; penalty. Allows a person with a concealed handgun permit to carry a concealed handgun onto the premises of a restaurant or club and prohibits such person from consuming alcoholic beverages while on the premises. A person who consumes alcohol in violation of the provisions of the bill is guilty of a Class 2 misdemeanor. This bill is identical to SB 334.

03/22/10 House: Signed by Speaker
03/25/10 Senate: Signed by President
- - -

VCDL (http://www.vcdl.org/) Member
Armed Citizens Legal Defense Network (http://www.armedcitizensnetwork.org/) Member
NRA Member

basicblur
March 28, 2010, 01:47 PM
This law goes into effect on July 1, this year.
No indication that governor has signed it, yet. I do not recall seeing any news reports that has been signed.

Well there ya go...we hope this law will go into effect, but until the guv' signs it...

Let's cross our Ts and dot our Is folks-else we could get a visitor to our fair state in a heap o' trouble!

Lincoln7
March 29, 2010, 01:27 AM
I stand corrected that the bill has not been signed by the Gov yet. He is pro 2A and it is looking good, but we are still awaiting his decision. I appreciate the correction.

More info: As long as the bill is not vetoed by the Gov, it goes into effect on July 1st. Doesn't matter if he signs it or not.

zoom6zoom
March 29, 2010, 03:29 PM
If you re in OC mode while walking around and do not have CC permit with you, as you enter the car, you need to unholster the gun and place it on teh seat or dashboard in view.
Please note that basicblur's answer about carrying on the hip only works in cars if you have CC permit.


Craig, if this is other than your opinion, could you please cite your source? Going by this interpretation, you are also "concealing" if you sit in a restaurant booth with your strong side towards the wall.

Craig_VA
March 29, 2010, 11:23 PM
zoom6zoom said
Craig, if this is other than your opinion, could you please cite your source? Going by this interpretation, you are also "concealing" if you sit in a restaurant booth with your strong side towards the wall.

Zoom,
My information is from the Virginia State Police web site at
http://www.vsp.state.va.us/Firearms_ResidentConcealed.shtm
which says,
"Based on the statute and decisions rendered by the Supreme Court, a weapon is considered to be concealed at any time it is placed in a location as to be within reach of the person, without the person being required to make an overt act to retrieve such weapon, when such weapon is hidden from common observation. Placing a weapon under the seat, on the seat hidden from common observation, or at any location from which the weapon can readily be retrieved is considered to be concealed. A person carrying a weapon in the unlocked glove compartment of an automobile, if the person does not have a permit or otherwise fall within any statutory exemption, is a violation of § 18.2-308(A), unless some particular fact or circumstance renders the weapon inaccessible."

I don't disagree with you about the practical nature of concealed vs. open when wearing a holster while seated in a restaurant. However, practice has been quite well established that OC in restaurants have not faced such a claim by LEOs. The fact that the State Police explicitly describe the situation in motor vehicles, above, is why I and others have passed on the wisdom to non-CC permit holders who are in OC mode to place the firearm in very clear view when driving.

Back to the original post at the top of this thread - he has a recognized reciprocal CC permit, so he will be fine leaving the holster on his hip while driving.

basicblur
March 29, 2010, 11:32 PM
The fact that the State Police explicitly describe the situation in motor vehicles...

I noticed it specifically stated "unlocked" glove box.
When I took my CC class, we had a former LEO talk a bit 'bout VA state laws. He specifically mentioned the "two move" rule-if you have to make two distinct moves to get the gun, you were (probably) OK-if you can get the gun in one move, you're not.

'Course, I'm sure this is a guideline which may vary by area, although I'm assuming he's basing the two move rule on previous court cases?

Something to keep in mind, but like the "VA tuck", YMMV! :scrutiny:

WardenWolf
April 12, 2010, 06:49 AM
Quick update to this, with some good news for everyone: I did some research, and Virginia's governor has announced he WILL sign the bill that repeals the ban on restaurant carry. For me, that's particularly good news since it means it will take effect before my trip in mid-July.

basicblur
April 12, 2010, 11:54 AM
If you'll remember, a while back I called the City Attorney and got shuffled off to the PD regarding IWB being considered OC in an establishment that serves alcohol. I was told "if we catch 'em, we arrest 'em".

Never one to leave well enough alone, I figured I'd visit the PD and show 'em the IWB pix from the VA Gun Info site I sent out earlier (link to pix below) to get a face to face answer, 'specially since "The VA Tuck" is popping up on the 'Net.

First young officer I spoke to informed me you could NOT carry in an establishment that served alcohol! I politely informed him that you could OC, and there is a bill on the VA Governor's desk that will allow you to CC in said establishment (the Guv' said the other day that he would sign it).

I was bumped up the chain of command, and the next two in line looked at the pictures and said "as long as I can see the gun it's not concealed". Neither was aware of the "1/3 of the gun showing" as stated on the VA Gun Info site reference.

So...if young officer #1 were to see you...!
If the other 2 were to see you carrying in the pix, they "say" it's OC.

As always, YMMV! I'd still be careful on this one folks!

**********************************************
Check out the pictures in the IWB (Inside The Waistband) section listed as "acceptable" ways to OC at such establishments in the link below:
http://vaguninfo.com/pages/opencarry.htm

Also note from the site:
“In the waistband” holsters are not considered “concealed” under VA law since about 1/3 of the firearm (the butt) is exposed...

Notice there is NO link to the applicable law/statute/official letter etc that would specify this!

tkaction
April 12, 2010, 12:27 PM
I am still confused after reading all the posts. I have a ccw can I put the loaded gun in a cubby hole next to the steering wheel, not on my hip or in the glove box and not visible? If the resturant serves any alcohol (not a 51%)
I cannot carry concealed? I live in Pa but travel in VA often so I was on the VA law question. My CCW is good in VA. as I am sure you know.

basicblur
April 12, 2010, 02:35 PM
I am still confused after reading all the posts. I have a ccw can I put the loaded gun in a cubby hole next to the steering wheel, not on my hip or in the glove box and not visible?

Well I don't know what state you're in (folks, can we at least put your state under your screen name?), but in VA:
1. If you have a CHP (Concealed Handgun Permit), I can see no reason why you can't carry it anywhere in the vehicle you want. You can put it in the cubbyhole, keep it on your hip, in the glove box, yadda yadda yadda.
2. If you DON'T have a CHP, then you can't hide it (and that's often open for interpretation). Leave it on the seat, on the dash, etc, but it better be in plain view.
3. As stated earlier (and this is not "law"?), the LEO that spoke to our CHP class referred to the "two step rule". Way it was explained-if you have it in your glove box and the glove box is locked, you're OK (takes 2 distinct moves to retrieve the gun). If the glove box is unlocked, you're screwed (takes only 1 move to retrieve the gun-opening the glove box). This applies to folks without a CHP-if you have a CHP, you're covered either way.
'Course, the two step rule sounds more like a training guide-I doubt it's law-I could see you getting in trouble even if you follow the rule-probably depends on where/who pulls you over.

If the resturant serves any alcohol (not a 51%) I cannot carry concealed?
If the business serves alcohol for consumption on the premises, you cannot CC! You CAN OC-one of those quirks in VA law that the governor has said he will correct when he signs the bill on his desk.

Now, if you read my little tale of local PD interaction on the subject of the VA Tuck, if the young officer #1 sees you OCing...well, it shouldn't make it far before it gets corrected, but LEOs are still learning the law!

I still say you're treading on thin ice AFA the VA Tuck...

ArthurDent
April 13, 2010, 01:31 AM
Given the controversy around restaurant carry, would it be legal to lock the handgun securely in the car while you were in the restaurant? I realize many would consider that an unreasonable risk for having your gun stolen, but wouldn't that risk be small compared to the chances of stirring up a "man with a gun" call if you open-carried in an upscale restaurant?

And... I'd like to ask one more question:

I am planning a trip to Virginia in about a month. I am in the process of getting a Florida permit which is honored in Virginia, but I doubt that the permit will be ready in time for my trip. (My Alabama permit is NOT honored in Virginia.)

Given that I'll be "unlicensed" in the state, would it be legal for me to keep the gun unloaded and safely locked up in the trunk while I'm in Virginia?

I would still like to have the gun with me as a legal means of self-defense on the drive through the surrounding states. However, if I'm going to be on shaky legal ground, I'll just go un-armed (and let the anti's win) rather than risk breaking the law.

One other idea:

What about the legality of having the gun unloaded, locked, and secured in a locked case inside of a briefcase that you could carry with you. Would that count as "concealed carry" or merely "transporting," and would that be a way to keep the gun under careful watch without breaking any laws?

I would appreciate any official references for answers if they are available.

Thanks! :)

basicblur
April 13, 2010, 03:22 AM
Given the controversy around restaurant carry, would it be legal to lock the handgun securely in the car while you were in the restaurant? I realize many would consider that an unreasonable risk for having your gun stolen, but wouldn't that risk be small compared to the chances of stirring up a "man with a gun" call if you open-carried in an upscale restaurant?

Yes it's legal to leave it locked up in your car-if you don't have a CHP, then you better have it in the trunk-'course, you could also leave it in plain view inside the car, but that does invite theft. According to what we were taught, you should be OK if it's locked up in the glove compartment (2-moves), but I don't know that I'd chance it.
'Course, there's not really a controversy AFA the law (more of a quirk)-VA is an OC state-if you go in a restaurant that serves alcohol for consumption, there's nothing that says you can't "discreet" carry! I've got a black gun, black holster, black pants, and most "upscale" restaurants are dimly lit-most folks will never know-just be sure if someone does call the law on you that you know it IS legal to OC (hope you don't get young officer #1 I ran into at the local PD)!

Given that I'll be "unlicensed" in the state, would it be legal for me to keep the gun unloaded and safely locked up in the trunk while I'm in Virginia?
Well IANAL, but I'm sure it would be-if you couldn't, how the heck is everybody transporting firearms to the gun shop, shooting range, etc (and they don't have CHPs). AFA that goes, since VA is an OC state, there's no reason why you can't have it loaded and in the car with you-just make sure it's in plain view!

I would still like to have the gun with me as a legal means of self-defense on the drive through the surrounding states. However, if I'm going to be on shaky legal ground...
Can't help you on other states-you'll have to do your own research.

What about the legality of having the gun unloaded, locked, and secured in a locked case inside of a briefcase that you could carry with you. Would that count as "concealed carry" or merely "transporting," and would that be a way to keep the gun under careful watch without breaking any laws?
Wow-we're getting into some stuff that needs more clarification?
As before, you're talking 'bout other states? If so, can't help you there.
You do have federal law that is supposed to guarantee you the right to transport, but that can get sticky if you stop for gas, eat, spend the night, etc in places that are paranoid 'bout firearms (like D.C., which I hear ignores the federal law).
'Course, if you're talking 'bout keeping it unloaded and locked up in a trunk etc, just how much good is it going to do you AFA SD?

http://www.vsp.state.va.us/Firearms.shtm
http://www.opencarry.org/maps.html
http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/virginia.pdf

ArthurDent
April 13, 2010, 01:20 PM
basicblur,

Thanks for the information! Particularly, thank you for the first, official link. I don't know why I hadn't found that before. (I had been aware of the handgunlaws.us site, but it didn't answer all of my questions.)

Yes, keeping it locked up does no good for self defense, but it sounds like it would prevent any legal problems, while allowing me to be able to defend myself on the trip to Virginia. The states in between do honor my carry permit from Alabama, although I was surprised at how restrictive North Carolina is as far as where you can carry. South Carolina is a real problem, so I guess I won't be going there if I can help it. I am also somewhat surprised at some of the restrictions in Virginia. This stuff really does vary a LOT from state to state.

Thanks again!

basicblur
April 13, 2010, 01:40 PM
I was surprised at how restrictive North Carolina is as far as where you can carry.
Yeah-I live on the VA/NC border-used to spend more time in NC than VA. When NC/VA got reciprocity, I got my CHP, then spent some time studying NC laws-they really suck! The 2 that really jumped out at me were no carrying where you pay admission, and sounds like no carrying in any large group if it takes place on public property (which would cover parades, funerals, etc).

South Carolina is a real problem, so I guess I won't be going there if I can help it.
I didn't check that closely, but I thought one of the links said in SC you could carry in your glove box? I might be mistaken, but I remember a co-worker once traveling to one of the southern states with his gun in plain view on the passenger seat-he said the officer told him to put the gun in his glove compartment-I thought that was SC?

AFA the "case in a case" you mentioned-I remember reading of a former LEO in CA that had such a setup-think he travelled with the briefcase open and the gun locked in the second case on the seat beside him-if he was ever stopped, he just shut/locked the briefcase. If he was asked to open the case (do you have a warrant?), he might do so, but then they were staring at the second case-kinda got sticky/troublesome for the officer to gain access to the second case (NOW do you have a warrant?). Interesting strategy that seemed to satisfy CA law according to him.

EDIT: Just checked the travel map at opencarry.org-according to it, you MUST carry in glove box in SC-that doesn't sound so bad for SD?

Lincoln7
April 15, 2010, 04:18 AM
Concealed carry in restaurants Bill signed by the Governor!

Wednesday, April 14, 2010

Fairfax, Va. - Governor Bob McDonnell has signed into law a NRA-backed measure allowing right-to-carry permit holders to carry a concealed firearm for self-defense in restaurants, providing they do not consume alcohol. State Senator Emmett Hanger (R-24) and Delegate Todd Gilbert (R-15) were the principal sponsors of Senate Bill 334/House Bill 505.


“This is a victory for self-defense in Virginia," said Chris W. Cox, executive director of the NRA’s Institute for Legislative Action. “As headlines remind us, violent crime can happen anywhere. Law-abiding Virginia residents now have the option to carry a firearm in restaurants to defend themselves and their loved ones.”


The measure passed the State Senate in February by a margin of 22-18 and passed the House of Delegates in early March with a vote of 72-27. Virginia is the 42nd state to extend self-defense rights to permit holders in restaurants.


“The right to self-defense and the protection of loved ones in and outside the home is vital. We are pleased that Virginia passed these laws to enhance the self-defense rights of law-abiding folks in the Commonwealth,” concluded Cox. “The NRA would like to thank Governor Bob McDonnell and the lead bill sponsors, Senator Emmett Hanger and Delegate Todd Gilbert, as well as all the other legislators who supported this common-sense measure.”


This law will take effect July 1, 2010


Link including other bills signed:
http://www.nraila.org/Legislation/Read.aspx?ID=5720

basicblur
April 22, 2010, 01:39 PM
From VCDL newsletter

The House and Senate both just adopted Governor McDonnell's change to HB 885, so that starting July 1 a non-CHP holder can have a loaded handgun in an UNLOCKED compartment or container in a private motor vehicle or vessel!!!

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