PMR-30 as a carry weapon?


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gofastman
March 28, 2010, 12:50 PM
Anyone have thoughts? is it small enough to conceal?
i want another pistol and this one looks like it would be really fun to shoot, but i need something that can be used for social work too.

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ronto
March 28, 2010, 02:24 PM
If you're looking for something fun to shoot, stick with 22LR unless you're rich.
I have to admit that 30 rounds of 22Mag would be awesome if you're good enough to place shots in the BGs eye socket.

thunder173
March 28, 2010, 02:27 PM
Has anybody even seen one of these yet? I could be convinced.

Shear_stress
March 28, 2010, 02:29 PM
I'm not really sold on the idea of .22 Magnum for self defense, but I guess it will the job done with good shot placement. The real issue is whether the gun is reliable.

rcmodel
March 28, 2010, 03:25 PM
I would have no problem using a 30-shot .22 Mag for SD.

But there are no guns yet.

Until they come on the market and prove themselves to be 100% reliable?
I would rather carry my S&W 317 with 8 shots of .22 long rifle.
If I carried a .22RF for SD at all.
Which I do sometimes.

rc

Joe Demko
March 28, 2010, 03:38 PM
If the gun works reliably, I'd also have no problem with carrying it as a self-defense piece.

gofastman
March 29, 2010, 12:48 AM
I'm not really worried about firepower, more is the weapon reliable and does it conceal easily and comfortably.

Nick5182
March 29, 2010, 12:59 AM
If it is reliable, .22 mag would be better than nothing. I've known some people that use those small 5 shot .22lr as car guns. This would certainly blow those out of the water.

GLOOB
March 29, 2010, 01:02 AM
I'm not really worried about firepower,

With 30+1, I think there's no reason to worry about firepower. I'm wondering more about the stopping power. :)

Quiet
March 29, 2010, 10:37 AM
is it small enough to conceal?
It's slightly bigger than a SIG P220, but weighs lighter.

gofastman
March 29, 2010, 11:47 AM
Well thanks for all the input, I'm trying to decide between the PF9 or the pmr30,
its gonna be my main carry weapon as I found out its next to impossible to tuck a Glock 20.
Its gonna be used for recreation (maybe some varmint hunting too, who knows)
which is why I'm hesitant on the pf9, idk how my hand will feel after 100 rounds or so.

Madcap_Magician
March 29, 2010, 12:02 PM
If the PMR-30 is bigger than a Sig 220, and you have problems with carrying Glock 20, I don't think you'll conceal a PMR-30 very well.

My concern with the .22 mag is less with the stopping power and more with the simple fact that it's a rimfire.

bigfatdave
March 29, 2010, 02:17 PM
its gonna be my main carry weapon as I found out its next to impossible to tuck a Glock 20.How are you tucking?
The PMR-30 doesn't appear to be smaller than "duty-size", it isn't designed as a CC pistol.
The pf9 IS designed to be a CC pistol, but is not designed to be a high-volume range pistol.

Generally concealment/carry issues are as much due to the carry rig as they are the fault of the gun.
Of course, stuff from Block does tend to be wide and chunky ... so it probably is partly the gun ... but if you're stuffing it into a "universal" holster and hanging it from a Wal-Mart belt, then even a pf9 won't carry well.

wild cat mccane
March 29, 2010, 02:22 PM
Good bye hearing for life.

Nick5182
March 29, 2010, 02:29 PM
I don't know where I saw this, but someone asked about swapping barrels to 17HMR. I think that would be a sweet plinker/ trunk survival gun, although 22WMR for a survival gun isn't bad either.

rcmodel
March 29, 2010, 02:33 PM
In case you haven't noticed, .17 HRM and semi-auto's haven't been getting along too well lately.

Remington recalled all their rifles, and Ruger never tried to make any in the first place.

The .17 HRM has a very different recoil impulse then a .22 WMR, and tend to blow out cases in semi-autos.

rc

gym
March 29, 2010, 02:52 PM
PF-9, for self defense. Plinking is an altogether different catagory. You can't get both in one gun. People will disagree but you really don't want to carry a large 22 in place of a small 9mm. At least no one I know would.

oasis618
March 29, 2010, 02:54 PM
hope u the best
I think I just found my new signature.

Serial Crusher
April 16, 2010, 05:50 PM
Ballistics should be pretty similar to the 5.7

Ben86
April 16, 2010, 07:49 PM
It could do, just be ready to empty at least half of the magazine to stop your aggressor. Stick with the usual service calibers if your life is what you are protecting.

.22 mag is too expensive for me, I'd buy one if it came out in .22lr.

19-3Ben
April 16, 2010, 07:53 PM
Ballistics should be pretty similar to the 5.7

Not sure about that. .22mag loads are worked up to be efficient out of a rifle. When shot out of a pistol, they lose an awful lot of their velocity.
The 5.7 WAS designed for the pistol and shorty carbine that shoot the cartridge, so it's pretty snappy out of a pistol.

SaMx
April 16, 2010, 08:24 PM
http://www.ktog.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1259682868
PMR velocities. They're all quite a bit lower than the 5.7

.22 mag is only comparable to 5.7x28 if the .22mag is being shot out of a 20+ inch rifle barrel and the 5.7 is being shot from a 5 inch pistol barrel.

wild cat mccane
April 16, 2010, 08:38 PM
Good bye hearing.

Sure its for self defense, but so is a 45 or 9mm. They permanently damage your hearing.

Also, lets see if they get it right. Kel Tec already made this gun and it was a failure for reliable feeding.

MachIVshooter
April 17, 2010, 02:30 AM
Well thanks for all the input, I'm trying to decide between the PF9 or the pmr30

For CC, that's a no-brainer. The PMR is light (14.something ounces), but dimensionally large, as in full size+. And the 9mm has far better terminal ballistics. For putting down an assailant, I'll take 8 rounds of 124 gr. 9mm over 31 rounds of .22 mag from a pistol every time.

Also, lets see if they get it right. Kel Tec already made this gun and it was a failure for reliable feeding.

The only thing the PMR shares with it's predecessor is the chambering and 30 round 2-in-1 magazine concept. The Grendel used tradtional blowback and had a fluted chamber. The PMR uses a Hybrid blowback/delayed system to compensate for varying pressures and recoil impulses of different ammunition. George has come a long way in design and quality control since the days of Grendel and Intratec. The essence of the former guns can be seen in some of the newer products, but they are entirely different.

atomd
April 17, 2010, 09:08 AM
Good bye hearing.

Guns are loud. Hearing damage occurs at somewhere around 120db in fairly small doses. If the noise is continuous, even levels of around 85 or so can cause damage. A .357 Mag is about 164db. That's way more than enough to say goodbye to your hearing as well (how bad depends on how long you're exposed to the sound). Some people hunt with rounds that are louder than a .357 and some even use muzzle brakes which make them even louder. How many db is the .22 mag? I'm betting it's not much worse on your hearing than a lot of rounds people use for self defense. I'm not saying it isn't very loud...it is easily dangerously loud. It's just not the ultra mega blow your eardrums out in one shot insta-deaf round that you think it is.

Girodin
April 18, 2010, 03:58 PM
The pf9 IS designed to be a CC pistol, but is not designed to be a high-volume range pistol.

I'm always a bit floored by the idea that one doesn't need to shoot their carry gun a lot. How are you going to develope the requisite proficeint with a weapon if you aren't shooting a fair number of rounds through it?

As to the PMR for a carry gun I would say no. First of all its a new design from a company with a record for spotty quality. You want to beta test on your CCW? Second, using a rim fire round for SD is a little sketchy. Third, the 22 mag is inferior in terms of terminal ballistics to other popular SD chamberings. Having 30 rounds seems to be little advantage for most SD situations b/c the likelihood of having the time or occasion to blow through 30 rounds seems pretty slim. Rather I'd be looking for more punch on the front end. You may only have time to get of a few shots. If you need round count there are many a wonder 9 that holds in excess of 15 rounds. Fourth the thing is big. If you are going to carry a duty sized pistol why carry a mouse gun round?

I honestly do not see anything that is of practical value for a carry gun that a number of other guns cannot do better.

bigfatdave
April 18, 2010, 10:50 PM
I'm always a bit floored by the idea that one doesn't need to shoot their carry gun a lot.Me too, honestly.
I shoot the crap out of my carry guns, and if I was packing a pf9 I'd have a second one, most likely.

wild cat mccane
April 18, 2010, 10:58 PM
If it carries nothing over from the Grendel then it is a new design. What other 30 round 22 mag handgun is there?

I am not say it wont work. Don't misread that. It is unfortunate however that Kel Tec gets rave reviews without pointing out the this gun comes from the same people, under a different legal name.

If it is a full size hand gun please refer me to data showing a 22 mag is capable in the same size barrel to any other handgun in the same size.

husbandofaromanian
August 5, 2010, 05:53 PM
I was thinking of using it as a snake gun with shotshell.

valorius
August 5, 2010, 06:19 PM
Anyone have thoughts? is it small enough to conceal?
i want another pistol and this one looks like it would be really fun to shoot, but i need something that can be used for social work too.
Rimfire ammo for self defense?
Horrible idea.

The gun is also immense.

RevolvingGarbage
August 5, 2010, 06:39 PM
If the gun is a success, dedicated sealed SD ammo is likely to come around for it, and even if it doesn't you can always seal the rounds yourself, or simply change ammo out every couple of weeks. Its also worth noting that the ammo would be significantly less exposed to sweat and the environment than it would be in the small 5 shot mini revolvers, which is where the reports of rimfire ammo going bad seems to come from.

Im not saying its the ultimate SD handgun, but it certainly has its advantages.

Manco
August 5, 2010, 10:05 PM
As it is with many others here, my main concern would be the PMR-30's reliability; and for me, the reliability of any rimfire autoloader.

I have to admit that 30 rounds of 22Mag would be awesome if you're good enough to place shots in the BGs eye socket.

You may have a few more options than that, at least based on these ballistic gelatin test results:

http://www.brassfetcher.com/index_files/Page1504.htm

While each of these rounds failed to expand, including the JHPs, all of them achieved an effective depth of penetration, which is more important anyway. Note that each was shot out of a 2" barrel, while the PMR-30 has a 4.3" barrel, which could be a positive or negative, but either way load selection will be critical for defensive purposes.

Ballistics should be pretty similar to the 5.7

For comparison, here are some ballistic gelatin test results for 5.7x28mm:

http://www.brassfetcher.com/5.7x28mm.html

I can't say for sure which is truly more effective, but penetration seems a bit iffy with the 5.7x28mm. :scrutiny: .22 WMR can have similar penetration performance when shot out of the 1 1/8 inch barrel of an NAA Mini-Revolver:

http://www.brassfetcher.com/NAAminiRevolver22Magnum.html

Granted, this is with less kinetic energy, but I doubt that the additional energy of a 5.7x28mm round could do any meaningful damage anyway.

With 30+1, I think there's no reason to worry about firepower. I'm wondering more about the stopping power. :)

I don't have faith in the stopping power of any combat-manageable handgun caliber. However, the cumulative effect of putting a bunch of rounds into the target extra quickly seems to have some merit. :evil: By the way, I don't mean putting 30 rounds or anywhere close to that into a target, but rather placing some number of rounds (more than usual, I suppose) both accurately and with greater speed.

.22 mag is only comparable to 5.7x28 if the .22mag is being shot out of a 20+ inch rifle barrel and the 5.7 is being shot from a 5 inch pistol barrel.

While that may be true in terms of velocity and/or kinetic energy, external ballistics doesn't always correspond directly with terminal ballistics. Even with .22 LR, sometimes having less velocity and therefore energy can actually be beneficial. :scrutiny: That's right, for example the CCI Stinger penetrates well enough to do some real damage when shot out of a little 2.5" handgun barrel, but practically explodes on contact when shot out of a rifle because the velocity is high and the bullet is weak. While the effect of the latter may be spectacular on small varmints, all it does is create a somewhat messy but shallow wound in human targets, meaning that as counterintuitive as this may seem, the Stinger is actually more effective and lethal for self-defense when it is shot out of a snub-nosed revolver than out of a rifle. :eek: For most .22 LR loads, it's the exact opposite as we'd expect, but this only goes to show that not everything that is obvious is necessarily true.

gym
August 7, 2010, 12:13 PM
I was told that the production was held up because of magazine problems. The source was a pretty knowledgeable guy, he told me they were shipping some with a 10 round mag, don't know if it's true or not, but does make sense.

valorius
August 7, 2010, 02:15 PM
If the gun is a success, dedicated sealed SD ammo is likely to come around for it, and even if it doesn't you can always seal the rounds yourself, or simply change ammo out every couple of weeks. Its also worth noting that the ammo would be significantly less exposed to sweat and the environment than it would be in the small 5 shot mini revolvers, which is where the reports of rimfire ammo going bad seems to come from.

Im not saying its the ultimate SD handgun, but it certainly has its advantages.
Please do name one real world advantage a PMR-30 has over my HK P7 for CCW other than less recoil. The capacity is a total non-issue in the real world.

Relying on rimfire cartridges for defense is just plain foolish IMO.

Ballistics should be pretty similar to the 5.7
.22 WMR fired from a RIFLE are "similar" to FN 5.7 ammo ballistics, but Elite Ammunition 5.7 Ammo fired out of a Five Seven pistol is a good deal hotter (over 100fpe more) than even .22 WMR fired from said RIFLE.

5.7 is MUCH hotter than .22wmr ammo. What's more, many 5.7 loads fragment on impact like 5.56mm rounds do. 5.7 ammo is also centerfire and rimless, .22wmr is neither.

5.7 is in no way comparable to .22wmr.

FIVETWOSEVEN
August 7, 2010, 02:17 PM
If you could get and carry them full auto they would be sweet.

Joe Demko
August 7, 2010, 02:36 PM
Please do name one real world advantage a PMR-30 has over my HK P7 for CCW other than less recoil.

It doesn't have that goofy squeeze cocker. Before you launch into how it is a feature, not a bug, I'll just go ahead and note that nobody else ever used such a system,HK doesn't even use it themselves any more, and the pistol was not widely used compared to more prosaic designs.
Also, you seem to have a real hard-on for a pistol that few have even seen and fewer yet have fired. Have you done either or are you just operating off the publicity photo that Kel-Tec first released a year or so ago?

valorius
August 7, 2010, 03:37 PM
I love my squeeze-cocker, and so do the cops/soldiers from the dozens of police agencies and military forces that used the P7 for about 3 decades, never once having been shot by their own gun by a criminal after being disarmed. (Source: Massad Ayoob). The P7 was a very expensive pistol, often costing 2x the price of other pistols it was competing against in police and military trials, and dozens of agencies/forces STILL adopted them and used them for about 30 years.

The P7 pistol is a time proven design with a die hard cult following, and is of absolutely top notch construction- the flagship of the HK pistol line for 3 decades.

The PMR-30 can only hope to ever attain such a status (really, it cannot).

And since there are no PMR-30s to shoot yet, how could i have shot one?

One thing we do know: It's a rimfire, that's all i need to know about it's viability as a defensive weapon. Rimfires simply misfire way, way too often for use as serious defensive tools.

Joe Demko
August 7, 2010, 04:04 PM
The P7 pistol is a time proven design with a die hard cult following, and is of absolutely top notch construction- the flagship of the HK pistol line for 3 decades.
Hi-Points have a very vocal cult following, too, so we probably shouldn't head down that road as some sort of validation of your personal preference in handguns. HK doesn't make it any longer. Nobody else made or is making anything similar. You may love your goofy squeeze cocker, but then my parents have a yappy little dog that shakes and urinates uncontrollably that they love.

I'll tell you what...come back with some experience_any experience_with the PMR-30 and then we'll talk some more. For my part, I'm holding off on saying anything more than it looks interesting until Kel-Tec actually gets some to market.

valorius
August 8, 2010, 12:30 AM
Yep, i love my goofy little squeezecocker:

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b343/m21sniper/Spoons/1holepsprt1.jpg
Shot this group with full power corbon 115gr+P the day i bought the pistol, at 10yds.

Yep....love it i do.

We are talking defense here. The PMR-30 is a rimfire. I have fired 10s of thousands of rds of rimfire. I have volumes of experience with rimfire, and my experience tells me that rimfires go click FAR too often to EVER be relied on as a serious defensive cartridge.

Which is why exactly ZERO police or military agencies on earth use rimfire cartridges in that role. Hence, the PMR-30 is just plain unsuitable for any sort of a defensive role, the propensity for a life ending misfire is just far too great. Simple.

Ben86
August 8, 2010, 02:05 AM
It looks too big to CC. .22 doesn't make a big enough hole for me to count on, and rimfires are not reliable enough for me either. Also, .22 mag is expensive, especially considering the small amount of material involved.

I'd buy one if it was in .22lr, just for plinking and small game hunting though.

EGGMAN240
August 8, 2010, 02:37 AM
HAs anyone held one yet? I am gonna get one as soon as they are available... Anyone know when that may be?

valorius
August 8, 2010, 05:10 AM
And let me be clear about something, if the PMR-30 was a centerfire, i'd buy one in a second. If only they'd have chambered it for the 5.7 cartridge.

bigfatdave
August 8, 2010, 07:18 AM
To be fair, modern quality .22mag is many orders of magnitude more reliable than the cheap bulk .22lr that gives rimfire a bad name.

valorius
August 8, 2010, 07:32 AM
I agree that you are correct in your observation, but it's still not nearly as reliable as quality premium factory center fire ammunition (I have had .22 mags misfire on me while squirrel hunting), which is the only thing i am ever going to rely my life on if i have a choice...and i have a choice.

Call me crazy. ;)

If you or anyone else want to carry a PMR-30 as a defensive arm, it is your right, but i seriously recommend that anyone who does commit a disproportionate amount of your training time to stoppage drills.

Isn't there a .22 mag equivelant centerfire type cartridge on the market? Is it .22 hornet? Whatever it is, KT should have made the PMR-30 fire that instead. That would kick muchimus assimus.

Don't get me wrong, i love the concept of a 31rd high velocity small caliber defensive sidearm. It just has to be centerfire.

The FN Five Seven is in an entirely different league, especially when loaded with EA ammunition. Eventually, i will be buying one of those for sure. Just waiting on the right deal on a nice used one to cross my path.

Manco
August 8, 2010, 10:14 AM
Please do name one real world advantage a PMR-30 has over my HK P7 for CCW other than less recoil. The capacity is a total non-issue in the real world.

In the real world, there may be times, albeit rare on the average, when somebody will need to put multiple rounds into more than one target in order to stop them, and then there are the misses to count. I've seen cases (and I'm sure that there are more that I've not seen) in which people have just barely come through after emptying their gun, and sometimes two in the case of revolvers. While I will admit that even 5 rounds is usually enough and even 10 rounds (what I'm limited to per magazine by law here in California) is almost always enough or more than enough, I'd still want more just in case I need them, and so that I can concentrate a bit more on stopping bad guys. Perhaps 30 rounds per magazine is a bit of overkill for personal defense, but that's better than having too few, and I think it's a comfort.

Relying on rimfire cartridges for defense is just plain foolish IMO.

I don't shoot .22 WMR so I'm not familiar with any specifics, but there are very reliable loads in .22 LR, some of which have never failed me once (in terms of ignition). Such loads tend to be more expensive, of course, since extra steps were taken to ensure reliability (e.g. using more of the primer compound, which is costly, and doing some additional processing to ensure that it is spread evenly).

I will acknowledge, however, that I am extremely wary in general about autoloader reliability with rimfire ammunition, but nevertheless we'll have to wait and see on that regarding the PMR-30 specifically.

.22 WMR fired from a RIFLE are "similar" to FN 5.7 ammo ballistics, but Elite Ammunition 5.7 Ammo fired out of a Five Seven pistol is a good deal hotter (over 100fpe more) than even .22 WMR fired from said RIFLE.

Frankly, I'm not impressed with the 5.7's terminal ballistics, at least in tests. I'm not saying that it isn't lethal, as even .22 LR is lethal, but penetration seems to be consistently lacking in comparison to other calibers. With the right loads in the appropriate guns, one can do much better in this regard with .22 WMR and even .22 LR (in pistols), but I'm not sure whether any such load yet exists for 5.7x28mm (does one?).

5.7 is MUCH hotter than .22wmr ammo. What's more, many 5.7 loads fragment on impact like 5.56mm rounds do.

I don't think this means much of anything, as 5.7x28mm doesn't have anywhere near the amount of kinetic energy per round that 5.56x45mm does. It's very much a pistol caliber in that regard.

bigfatdave
August 8, 2010, 01:10 PM
I agree that you are correct in your observation, but it's still not nearly as reliable as quality premium factory center fire ammunition (I have had .22 mags misfire on me while squirrel hunting), which is the only thing i am ever going to rely my life on if i have a choice...and i have a choice. I'm going to need failure rates in actual numbers to make that call, not just an anecdotal account and an opinion.
Add in that new guns DO get special ammo for them made (remember the Judge and the new ".410 defensive" loads that hit the shelves?) and perhaps the pmr30 will end up being a useful duty-type weapon. It is still overly bulky for CC, but when I get one I'm getting a holster for it anyway, just for laughs.

valorius
August 8, 2010, 06:15 PM
It's not anecdotal that rimfire ammo fails more- it is a long established fact, but its your life to gamble with.

Not one single military or police force on earth uses rimfires in not one single modern firearm designed primarily for shooting at other human beings. Not one manufacturer makes not one single big game rimfire rifle or pistol or cartridge.

Now why do you suppose that is?

Dave, spend some time looking at Elite Ammunition's offerings in 5.7x28mm Particularly their trident round. There are videos of that load on youtube dropping big wild pigs. That round yaws after impact and breaks into 2 solid copper pieces, each creating it's own wound tract. It'll also blow right through a Class II vest.

Or thier V-max round at over 2000fps from a Five Seven pistol barrel and about 350fpe of energy (9mm std pressure or .38spl +P type energy). This stuff fragments violently in gel, in the manner of 5.56mm XM193.

Any advantage gained by having 31rds of .22wmr vs 9rds of 9mm is completely lost by the fact that the 9mm is a vastly more effective self defense cartridge. Having to shoot someone 5-6-7 or more times with a .22 just to stop one threat, maybe, not my idea of a good time. With many current offerings 9mm "+P+" ammo is the ballistic equivalent to .357 magnum. .22WMR fired from a pistol is the ballistic equivalent of .22lr fired from a rifle.

Having your rimfire go click where your centerfire would have gone BOOM is a silly way to die, in my opinion.

I'll stick with my centerfire 9mm for defense, thanks.

bigfatdave
August 8, 2010, 06:45 PM
fails morequantative analysis, please ... qualitative isn't going to cut it.

For the duties you seem to think 5.7 is effective for, I'll just take the more economical Tokarev or a rifle.

I'll stick with my centerfire 9mm for defense, thanks.And how often to you take the easy option of that LCP in your sig line?

I'm not about to abandon my CC guns in duty calibers for the pmr30, but your skewering of the gun and the rounds it fires are quite amusing, please continue!

valorius
August 8, 2010, 06:59 PM
The total absence of weapons designed for serious defense or big game hunting in rimfire cartridges, indeed the very absence of such rimfire cartridges to begin with, is an ironclad definitive analysis.

I would not mind the Tokarev at all if they made modern platforms for it. It is a magnificent combat proven round, if only there were 21st century weapons to fire it, i would definitely consider one.

That you'd compare a 5.7 to a rifle- or a 7.62x25mm Tokarev- is to me, a compliment to the 5.7.

I carry my LCP with CT laser about 95% of the time, loaded with Corbon DPX+P solid copper hollowpoints. I would willingly and knowingly take that over a PMR-30 if i was going into a fight. (But i'd want a shotgun or rifle over both, including my 9mm. :D)

harmon rabb
August 8, 2010, 07:34 PM
With many current offerings 9mm "+P+" ammo is the ballistic equivalent to .357 magnum.

9mm +p+ is only equivalent to the very low end of .357mag loadings. On the high end, you'd need a necked down 10mm (i.e. the 9x25 dillon) to match .357mag.

valorius
August 8, 2010, 07:40 PM
9mm +p+ is only equivalent to the very low end of .357mag loadings. On the high end, you'd need a necked down 10mm (i.e. the 9x25 dillon) to match .357mag.

Light weight (110-130gr) .357 magnum rounds are considered to be nearly ideal for personal defense by most experts, with 125gr @1450 fps and 580fpe being the legendary benchmark. That's a "full power" .357 magnum load.

One one can get pretty close to matching that with Doubletap 115gr+P Gold Dot JHP at 1415fps and 515fpe of energy.

That i can make my 9mm mimic (and in some cases actually exceed) the performance of such .357 mag loads by just buying some +P+ ammo makes me a very happy man.

gun guy
August 8, 2010, 07:59 PM
rimfire ammo fails to fire?? thats news to me, but i've probably only fired a few hundred thousand rimfire rounds, maybe a million, i personally havent had a misfire yet, or even seen one at a range, interesting. why dont they load larger rimfire rounds? the case of a rimfire round has to be soft, in order to crush the primer, this negates a high working pressure found in center fire rounds. in the black powder days there were large caliber rimfire rounds. now, everyone knows a 22 can be lethal, it has probably killed more creatures, from big to small, than any other round, about anyone can learn to hit well with one. anyone that has been in a real gunfight will tell you shot placement matters, so, you have a round, that is proven lethal, that is easy to place where you want it to go, that some fine weapons are chambered in, but avid readers of the riflemen, with hours of xbox combat time, will tell you it won't work as a self defense round. what am i missing here? Granted i carry a model 23 glock in 40, and a colt diamondback snubbie on assignment. why? mostly company requirements/guidelines. sometimes, when i pop out to the store, i carry an 8 shot Taurus 22 mag, why, i'm armed, it works. as to bullet fragmentation, bet it would take surgery to get those fragments out. i got my degree in gunfighting at the university of vietnam, i did my grad work on the streets of orlando. would i take a 22 into a gunfight, if thats all i had, you bet, would i rather up my odds with a larger weapon, sure, its just hard to hide an m-14 with cargo shorts and a t-shirt

bigfatdave
August 8, 2010, 08:09 PM
I would not mind the Tokarev at all if they made modern platforms for it.Now that would be nice ... maybe when surplus ammo dries up and ammo makers see there is an actual demand the gun makers will follow. Hell, an updated Tok loading might be the .32NAA or a descendant, or .357sig might evolve and/or drop in price.

That you'd compare a 5.7 to a rifle- or a 7.62x25mm Tokarev- is to me, a compliment to the 5.7.
I'm comparing the mission mall ninjas think the 5.7 can accomplish to the actual tools for the job ... I've seen what Tok does to jugs right next to the 5.7 ... and ball Tok was more impressive than ballistic-tip 5.7 ... and of course just about any centerfire rifle beats both. I'm short on a .22WMR rifle, but I'd be interested to put it up against my CZ52 shooting cheap Tok and a FiveSeveN shooting that over-hyped poodle-shooting expensive boutique stuff from Belgium.
I'm honestly not impressed with the 5.7 for the same reasons you're not impressed with the .22mag, beyond ignition issues. I don't need more little bitty non-expanding projectiles, I want an immediate energy dump in a controllable package. If nothing else, I expect the pmr30 to be ergonomically well designed with a duty-size grip and toy-size recoil. The gun should be fine, it can handle full-auto so it should be fine semi, we'll have to see about reliable magazine feeding, and thinking of the mags I understand why KT went with heel release, but I still don't like it much.

And I still want to see actual numbers on those .22mag ignition, I'm thinking that modern premium .22mag housed in a magazine in a quality holster will be just fine, there's far better primer application in .22mag than in .22lr/l/s, and the extra energy of the round will allow KT to have a heavier hammer/spring setup for a wider area of primer crush ... ever notice how semiautos don't crush the rim as much as a revolver/levergun does in .22lr/l/s guns? More recoil energy can fix that.

I carry my LCP with CT laser about 95% of the time, loaded with Corbon DPX+P solid copper hollowpoints. I would willingly and knowingly take that over a PMR-30 if i was going into a fight.Suddenly I'm not impressed. I manage to pack a Walther PPS everywhere other than work (real GFZ with metal detectors/armed security/etc) ... or a compact 1911 when I feel like it. What's that mousegun for? Doesn't it point naturally? How many malfunction-free rounds of that SCHP stuff do you have down the pipe? Do you carry an extra mag?

===

When it comes down to it, assuming a pmr30 appears in a shop I frequent and has a pleasing grip to my hand, I'll probably buy one for the hell of it, and chances are I'll get a holster for it just because that's how I roll. Maybe it can be an OC gun for political purposes, maybe it can live with my Sub2000 and p32 as a bugout collection in one bag ... but I like KT and I'm amused at the concept of a .22mag semiauto, and I can afford another toy.

Lvl21nerd
August 8, 2010, 08:20 PM
any word on price for the pmr-30 when it hits the market?

wild cat mccane
August 8, 2010, 08:23 PM
BigFatDave, I would say you appear to have one hell of a chip on your shoulder...but that would be stating the obvious. oops.

Jim Watson
August 8, 2010, 09:28 PM
I first thought the PMR-30 would be a good self defense weapon for the non-enthusiast.
Not much weight, not much recoil and a lot of tries.
But...
It is a single action auto and said non-enthusiast would have to master its operation, shooting enough that disengaging the safety was as reflexive to him as for we 1911 traditionalists.

valorius
August 9, 2010, 08:42 AM
I manage to pack a Walther PPS everywhere other than work (real GFZ with metal detectors/armed security/etc) ... or a compact 1911 when I feel like it. What's that mousegun for?
I have an HK P7 if i feel the need for a bigger pistol. 95% of the time, i don't. I did carry a high capacity 9mm for employment for many years though, in several different jobs. (and no, i have never been a security guard, lol)

Doesn't it point naturally?
Why point and guess when you can precisely place?

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b343/m21sniper/Spoons/488f274e.jpg
Federal Hydrashok JHP, off hand, 25 feet- the 9 ring hit was shooter error on my part.

How many malfunction-free rounds of that SCHP stuff do you have down the pipe?
200 of various types, including about 50 of the DPX rounds i carry. I've also shot some Rem Golden Saber, Fed Hydrashok, Triton+P, Geco+P and various loose FMJ i had laying around through it. So far, so good.

I'll be going up the mountains in a few days and will rip about another 100rds through it during my get away. I'll be putting my HK, AR, and Beretta 12ga through their paces too. Fun days ahead. :D

Do you carry an extra mag?
Yes. I carry an extra mag in my jeans watch pocket, along with a LED light w/skullcrusher (also in watch pocket), and a nice CKRT pocket folder in my front off hand pants pocket. If i cannot kill a threat with 14rds of solid copper DPX+P hollowpoints...it's because there are 15 guys. :D

LOL, no, but seriously, that particular ammo has shown excellent gel test results with expansion between .64" and .70+" cal in at least 3 different gel tests that i've seen, and i have trained to double tap for about 20 years now.

I think i'll be good, and i feel 100% confident that i am adequately armed for anything short of a professional armed robbery squad or an Al Qaeda hit team.

I'd need a Five Seven and a mall ninja uniform for that. :-P

valorius
August 9, 2010, 09:06 AM
rimfire ammo fails to fire?? thats news to me, but i've probably only fired a few hundred thousand rimfire rounds, maybe a million, i personally havent had a misfire yet, or even seen one at a range, interesting.
I call B.S., plain and simple.

I've seen hundreds if you include the cheap bulk ammo, and many dozens if we're just talking premium rounds.

MachIVshooter
August 9, 2010, 10:21 AM
The total absence of weapons designed for serious defense or big game hunting in rimfire cartridges, indeed the very absence of such rimfire cartridges to begin with, is an ironclad definitive analysis.

The reason no modern big game and defense cartridges are rimfire has nothing to do with ignition reliability. It's about pressure. The very design of the rimfire case dictates that the case head material must be thin enough that the firing pin can dent it to provide ignition. That worked just fine with black powder loads, and just about every cartridge up until the 1880's was rimfire. Smokeless powder generates much more pressure, and a case thin enough to give rimfire ignition is too thin to contain that pressure when you start talking about larger rounds. The .22 WMR has a peak operating pressure of 22,000 PSI-about the same as .45 ACP, and well below many modern hangun rounds and virtually all rifle cartridges (typically between 45,000 and 65,000 PSI). Couple that with the fact that as scale increases, so must the thickness of the brass to contain the same amount of pressure, and you can see why rimfire becomes impractical even for lower pressure rounds when diameters begin to approach .30 caliber. Also consider that most modern cartriges are rimless to facilitate better feeding from a box magazine; I don't think I really need to explain the problem with rimfire in that regard.

In summary, while .22 LR is known to have many misfires on account of high volume/low cost production (QC), that does not mean that the rimfire design is inherently unreliable. Quality rimfire ammunition is every bit as reliable in ignition as centerfire. While I agree for many reasons that the PMR-30 would be a relatively poor choice for SD, you need to drop the rimfire reliability argument. It's not a valid point, and you've been unable to substantiate that claim in over a dozen posts.

gofastman
August 9, 2010, 01:10 PM
rimfire ammo fails to fire?? thats news to me
I guess I'm in the same boat.
I can totally see how it would be less reliable than a comparable centerfire round, but I have yet to experience any problems :confused:

Orion8472
August 9, 2010, 02:50 PM
The last time I went to the range, my brother and I found a 9mm, a .40 cal, and a.45acp, all of them unfired, and both the 9mm and .45acp had primer diimples. . . .. . . not sure why the .40 was there and unfired.

My point is, centerfire rounds can fail to a gun's light primer strike. Just saying this to make the point that even centerfire rounds can prove problematic. I would say that this may be less of an issue than the probability of a rimfire failing to fire, but it is there.

valorius
August 9, 2010, 04:06 PM
and you can see why rimfire becomes impractical even for lower pressure rounds when diameters begin to approach .30 caliber.
Ah, well then, please show me the modern low pressure .299 caliber and down rimfires on the market intended for defensive use or serious hunting.

If it was viable to do, there would be nuts out there doing it. We have blackpowder and bow hunters. No big bore rimfire hunters though. No makers even suggesting making such cartridges or arms. A "low pressure" .299 cal rimfire would theoretically be suitable for some medium to smallish sized big game hunting, but no such weapons exist. No such cartridges exist. (caveat: that i am aware of)

Also consider that most modern cartriges are rimless to facilitate better feeding from a box magazine; I don't think I really need to explain the problem with rimfire in that regard.
I agree- the rim on rimfires is yet another strike against rimfires for use as defensive cartridges in autoloading weapons.

In summary, while .22 LR is known to have many misfires on account of high volume/low cost production (QC), that does not mean that the rimfire design is inherently unreliable. Quality rimfire ammunition is every bit as reliable in ignition as centerfire. While I agree for many reasons that the PMR-30 would be a relatively poor choice for SD, you need to drop the rimfire reliability argument. It's not a valid point, and you've been unable to substantiate that claim in over a dozen posts.
I disagree that i have failed to "substantiate my claim", to the contrary, several other people, including yourself, have agreed that existing rimfire ammunition (which is what we're talking about here), is less reliable.

There are numerous threads online where people discuss this issue at great length, where poster after posters notes all the misfire problems they've had with various rimfire ammunition misfiring.

On top of it, you went on to further state that it's rimmed design is yet another problem for reliable defensive use. And i agree.

But i really don't care if anyone wants to convince themselves in their head that a rimmed .22 caliber rimfire autopistol is in any way a serious defensive tool. It's a free country.

The same pistol chambered for a .22 cal rimless and centerfire cartridge with the same pressure and velocity levels would be a far more suitable defensive arm.

Joe Demko
August 9, 2010, 04:43 PM
But i really don't care if anyone wants to convince themselves in their head that a rimmed .22 caliber rimfire autopistol is in any way a serious defensive tool.

The numbers and lengths of your replies to this thread say otherwise.

zhyla
August 9, 2010, 05:12 PM
I've seen hundreds if you include the cheap bulk ammo, and many dozens if we're just talking premium rounds.

Perhaps there is just worse QA for .22LR rounds, but I think anyone who has shot .22 for an afternoon has had a round not go off. It's often the gun that is blamed, but I think brass is just harder to ding reliably than whatever centerfire primers are made of (plated tin?).

I don't know why people always feel the need to justify a gun purchase as being defense-related. We all want a PMR-30 because it looks cool and it holds ton of rounds. Mmmmk?

gym
August 9, 2010, 07:00 PM
Someone asked about price, the street price will be around $300.00, from what I have read on various gun sites. Ibelieve msrp is around $415.00, for 3 bills I will buy one, as long as they get the mags working, just to have a plinker. Although I saw a nice ruger in stainless with the wood handles for the same price lase week. and that is a nice looking pistol for a plinker. With the new barrel I think it's called "slab sided". Have me thinking now. Look under distributer exclusives on the ruger page, they have some special models.

MachIVshooter
August 9, 2010, 08:31 PM
Ah, well then, please show me the modern low pressure .299 caliber and down rimfires on the market intended for defensive use or serious hunting.

Reading comprehension 101. I didn't say rimfire was a superior design in sub-.30 caliber cartridges or that there is a demonstrable benefit over centerfire. Obviously, there isn't. What I said is that the limitations of the rimfire design coupled with smokelss powder create a logistical problem in cartridges over .30 caliber, even at lower operating pressures.

If it was viable to do, there would be nuts out there doing it. We have blackpowder and bow hunters. No big bore rimfire hunters though. No makers even suggesting making such cartridges or arms. A "low pressure" .299 cal rimfire would theoretically be suitable for some medium to smallish sized big game hunting, but no such weapons exist. No such cartridges exist. (caveat: that i am aware of)

There were tons in the black powder era, and they were used for all tasks from gallery plinking to dangerous game hunting, and everything in between. And once again, it was the advent of smokeless powder that made those larger rimfires impractical. It could be done today, but would require either a tremendously powerful firing pin spring to smash a sufficiently thick case rim, or a small thin spot in the case rim that somehow indexed correctly on feeding, in order to prevent a rim blowout. Of course, we know that neither approach is feasible.

I disagree that i have failed to "substantiate my claim", to the contrary, several other people, including yourself, have agreed that existing rimfire ammunition (which is what we're talking about here), is less reliable.

No, I did not agree with that, and you have not substantiated it. There's that comprehension thing again. I said that cheap bulk .22 LR is less reliable than most centerfire because of the QC issues with something produced on the order of 3 billion rounds per year at an average cost of $0.03 per round. .17 HM2, .17 HMR, 5mm RMR and .22 WMR are in a different class, with much lower numbers and much better quality (not the least of which is the use of conventional jacketed bullets).

Cheaply produced centerfire ammunition suffers from the same QC related reliability issues.

On top of it, you went on to further state that it's rimmed design is yet another problem for reliable defensive use. And i agree.

No I didn't. Not here, not ever. Why would a rim be a problem for defensive cartridges? The .38 Spl. has a rim. So does the .357 Magnum. Are guns so chambered somehow less reliable than a 9mm or .45 in your world?

I said the rimless design of modern centerfire cartridges was to facilitate better feeding in box magazine firearms. How you get rimmed being a drawback for defensive use from that, especially without differentiating between revolver and automatic, is beyond me. Pretty convoluted thought process, it would seem.

The same pistol chambered for a .22 cal rimless and centerfire cartridge with the same pressure and velocity levels would be a far more suitable defensive arm.

Perhaps the most ridiculous comment you've made thus far. The primary argument against the .22 Rimfires for defensive use is the poor terminal performance. Making the cartridge case different won't fix that shortcoming.

It's fairly obvious at this point that most of what you're saying is just regurgitated from other boards or gunshop conversations, as your previous posts suggest that you don't really have a very good understanding of metallic cartridge design and internal ballistics, but rather just a grudge against rimfires. Get back to us when you can come up with something researched and verifiable.

oasis618
August 9, 2010, 08:37 PM
Yep, i love my goofy little squeezecocker:

Ok, now I really found my new signature line...

Txhillbilly
August 9, 2010, 11:13 PM
And I have also had countless FTF,FTL,FTE and Misfires with just about every centerfire pistol caliber too,so what's your point?

My main carry weapon is a Springfield 1911A1 double stack,and even after having alot of custom work done to it,I still have a few problems every so often.
There are no problem free guns or ammo,if man makes it,it's going to malfunction sooner or later.

Ben86
August 10, 2010, 12:19 AM
There are no problem free guns.

Haven't you every heard about Glocks?

Sorry, I couldn't resist. ;)

SIGLBER
August 10, 2010, 03:28 AM
I have a friend that has severe hand strength problems. All she can shoot is a .22. She has a Ruger MK II with 10+1 rounds of Stingers in it. She is very good with it. If she can step up to a .22 Mag I'm going to have her go for it. Can you conceal it? Of course if you are willing to dress around the gun. You can carry a full sized gun in the dead of summer with the right cover garments. Is it the best choice. By no means. But if you want to it can be done.

evan price
August 10, 2010, 05:33 AM
I carry the Hornady 30-gr V-max 22WMRs in my NAA Mini; so far no problems with ignition in new rounds, or the rounds carried in the sweaty depths of my pants for days at a time while working. I'm absolutely not going to say that a rimfire is ever going to be 100% reliable, but I can't say that about centerfire calibers either!

Bulk 22LR is a totally different ballgame than the WMR rounds, especially the nicer ones like the Hornadys or CCIs. The rounds cost as much as centerfire rounds and they expend more QC on making them right. I would personally say that I have never seen a WMR fail to fire but I can't say they never fail to fire. I would not trust bulk 22LR as SD ammo, ever, under any circumstances. The NAA is the gun I carry as BUG or when I can't carry a gun, and that's a WMR for that reason.

The 30+1 capacity of the Keltec pistol is intriguing, and the Hornady V-max at 2200 fps still manages to get around 1150 fps* in the 1-5/8" NAA Mini; I would imagine it is closer to 1300 fps in the PMR30's longer barrel. A 30-grain V-Max at 1300 FPS would certainly put a hurting on a BG, and with 29 more of them incoming it might just ruin his day.

That said, a single action 22WMR semi-auto is not on my list of stuff I want. Double action please.

(*PER THE NAA WEB SITE- http://www.naaminis.com/magvel.html)

valorius
August 10, 2010, 09:25 PM
No I didn't. Not here, not ever. Why would a rim be a problem for defensive cartridges? The .38 Spl. has a rim. So does the .357 Magnum. Are guns so chambered somehow less reliable than a 9mm or .45 in your world?
You twice say "reading comprehension 101" in your last post, but you totally failed to see where i said rimmed designs are less reliable in automatics. The PMR-30 is an automatic.

It's a free country, use whatever you want for defense, but using a rimfire, especially in an automatic, is most unwise.

The 30+1 capacity of the Keltec pistol is intriguing, and the Hornady V-max at 2200 fps still manages to get around 1150 fps* in the 1-5/8" NAA Mini; I would imagine it is closer to 1300 fps in the PMR30's longer barrel. A 30-grain V-Max at 1300 FPS would certainly put a hurting on a BG, and with 29 more of them incoming it might just ruin his day.
Right, because that guy who is firing back at you with 9mm or .357 magnum or whatever other centerfire cartridge isn't going to drop you dead where you stand after his first doubletap. 1300fps for a 30gr bullet is barely 100fpe of energy. You'd be better off (literally) stabbing your opponent.

Even if the other guy charges you from 21 feet (7yds) with a knife you're at most getting half a dozen or so rapid fired rounds off, and most people won't get even half that many rounds off.

If you really like the idea of a 31rd defensive pistol, you want a 5.7. It has about triple the muzzle energy, and about double the range...and it's centerfire.

The numbers and lengths of your replies to this thread say otherwise.
Well you know Joe, on firearms forums people like to discuss firearms.

GLOOB
August 11, 2010, 08:08 PM
What the heck? I'm going to jump in the water to defend rimfire ammo from poor logic.

Even if you consider all the personal experiences with .22LR being prone to failure.... have we forgotten what gun we're talking about? It's a 22WMR. Lumping it together with 22LR because it's a rimfire is not fair. AFAIK, the majority of dud .22LR is due to the weak crimp allowing oil/moisture into the cartridge. Take the nose of .22 LR, and you can easily wiggle the bullet with your bare hands. The 22 WMR has a totally different/better type of crimp on it. Submerge a box of .22LR in oil for 2 days. Then shoot it an see what happens. Now do the same with a box of .22WMR. Then report back, here.

And even as unreliable as .22LR is, I have fired thousands of rounds of mostly Federal Auto Match and Federal Bulk HP's in the past 2 years, and I have had exactly 1 dud round (and that was out of a rare "other" brick of Eley Club). And I took that dud round and rechambered it at 2 different spots. The failure wasn't due to lack of primer distribution!

The rate of your own "duds" might be higher, but mine is pretty darn low. I feel like the chance of my gun jamming from other causes greatly dwarfs the reliability of .22LR ammo, as long as the ammo is kept clean and rotated frequently. For .22 WMR, I think there'd be almost no issue of reliability.

So, can anyone here regale us with stories of the unreliability of .22 WMR?

Also, in refute of rimmed cartridges being inherently unreliable in autopistols... there's a thing called rimlock. This is a phenomenon related to 1. bad magazine design and 2. high recoil. It may not be in issue in the PMR. Does anyone here have a 10/22 that will claim their gun is unreliable with factory mags?

bigfatdave
August 11, 2010, 08:41 PM
I'm with you on just about all of that, GLOOB, but 10/22 factory mags are the rotary ones with a little depression for each round, they don't contact each other in the magazine much, if at all.

Now, my Ruger rimfire pistols don't have rim problems, and even the low-rake 22/45 doesn't as far as I know.
But the feeding of a rimmed cartridge from a properly-designed magazine is hardly an issue ... you get problems when you feed rimmed casings in a gun designed for rimless, or when you shove improper-length rounds into a properly-sized magazine (the reason .32acp gets rimlock is too much rattle room in the mags front-to-back)

Seeing as the pmr30 is designed from the ground up to feed a rimmed case, I'm going to assume KT had their engineers on it. Also since KT is likely aware that .22wmr has a rim, and since KT sells a magazine add-on for shorter .32acp rounds they are probably even aware of the need for careful magazine design for rimmed cartridges.

And GLOOB, don't you know that because rem golden bullets suck in every way that high-end .22wmr ammo will be exactly the same?
Funny, now that I think of it, the only .22wmr I've ever seen fail was Remington cheap stuff.

harmon rabb
August 11, 2010, 08:43 PM
A 10/22 has a rotary magazine. I don't think it can rimlock.

GLOOB
August 11, 2010, 08:54 PM
Yes, I see the error of my example. Thanks!

MachIVshooter
August 11, 2010, 10:26 PM
there's a thing called rimlock. This is a phenomenon related to 1. bad magazine design and 2. high recoil.

And 3, a semi-rimmed design, like the .25 ACP and .32 ACP, where the protrusion of the rim on the cartridge above gets hooked in the extractor groove of the one below. True rimmed cartridges really don't suffer from that, as it'd be darn near impossible for the rim of one to jump over the next.

valorius
August 11, 2010, 10:33 PM
So, can anyone here regale us with stories of the unreliability of .22 WMR?
I have had .22 WMR factory ammo fail to go bang for me while hunting a couple times.

So rimmed cartridges are just fine in autoloaders eh?

Hmmm, ok.

Please explain the existence of the .357 Sig cartridge, which was designed to, and i quote, "Mimic the ballistics of the .357 magnum in a reliable autoloading design."

Joe Demko
August 11, 2010, 10:40 PM
Rimmed cartridges work well enough in autoloaders designed to handle them. There's been a kajillion Ruger, Beretta, Colt, High Standard et.al. .22 autoloading pistols. Provided the magazine is designed with adequate rake, the rim is not an issue.
Coonan manufactured a .357 magnum 1911 derivative. The few who own them do not seem to find the rim to be an issue.
Lots of folks own .38 Super 1911's. The only issue with the semi-rim there seems to be that older guns headspaced on it rather than on the case mouth.
S&W marketed an autoloader that fired .38 spl wadcutters. It was a specialized target piece, but the couple guys I knew who used them in gun club competions said they worked well enough if ammo was in spec.

RevolvingGarbage
August 11, 2010, 10:49 PM
Its certainly possible to design a reliable .357mag autoloader. The .357sig merely makes it easier to do so, as you can use a pistol with a more standard chamber/grip/magazine length.

valorius
August 11, 2010, 10:52 PM
There is a .357 mag autoloader, but it's a gigantic heavy beast, and they are known to be finicky with ammo selection.

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTgoVz2_jNuVxXdJpw08nTrQDySxqyR_0Zu5-EgQkOXT7lu-fU&t=1&usg=__tRIWQsZMVUdZ5-DZ8HUFauW-Oqk=

Conversely, there are about a gillion different models chambered for the rimless .357 Sig cartridge, a cartridge specifically designed to give you .357 mag ballistics in a rimless case.

Rimmed cartridges work well enough in autoloaders designed to handle them. There's been a kajillion Ruger, Beretta, Colt, High Standard et.al. .22 autoloading pistols.
Yes, i've shot all manner of them. They're all more or less finicky in my experience. Toss in the misfires on top of it, and the very weak terminal performance of tiny 30gr .22 bullets in the 100fpe of energy range, and what you end up with is not a good defensive arm.

Why tempt fate? A 9mm, a .357 Sig, a .40S&W or a .45auto is a known commodity and any of them will cause far more tissue destruction than a tiny little 30gr solid bullet will.

The Coonan Arms .357 mag is an extremely obscure gun that was on the market for a very short time. Hardly what i'd call a success story to point to.

Joe Demko
August 11, 2010, 10:58 PM
Sort of. It gives you ballistics similar to one particular .357 magnum load. I expect there is much less diversity in .357 Sig loadings than there is in .357 magnum loadings. The DE's reputation for being picky doesn't have much, if anything, to do with the rim on the cartridge. Partially, it is due to gas operation. Use of unjacketed lead bullets isn't kind to it. Partly it is due to .357 magnum loads including a wide range of bullet weights and powder charges. Autoloaders in general are designed to work most reliably with ammo that meets certain specs. Stray from those specs and you court problems.

valorius
August 11, 2010, 11:00 PM
Stray from rimless, centerfire ammo, and you court problems in autoloaders too.

Rimlock is entirely feasible in a autoloading magazine. I've certainly had my share of rimlock issues with a .32acp Kel Tec. It's gone now in large part because it would rimlock pretty consistently with my favorite .32acp load.

Why ask for trouble?

I bought a .380 LCP. It's rimless, centerfire....it works. And it's got more than double the energy of a .22 mag from a pistol, and it will expand to triple the diameter of one too, while still getting 10+" of penetration.

Want a solid for deep penetration? You can put those in your .380 too. There are flat point loads in .380 that will get 20+" penetration in gel, while making a much larger hole than a .22 will. With the reliability of rimless centerfire ammunition.

If you want to step up to a big, full sized PMR-30 sized gun, the pistol is totally outclassed in terminal performance in it's size and price class by more powerful rimless centerfire weapons.

But, people love to hammer square pegs into round holes. Always have.

Joe Demko
August 11, 2010, 11:04 PM
Do you bother to read anything that doesn't agree with what you have already decided? Please address the issue of the mountain of .22lr auto pistols that are out there burning through oceans of ammo every single day. I own a bunch of them myself, and I will repeat: if the magazine is properly raked, the rim is not an issue.

mesinge2
August 11, 2010, 11:05 PM
The real issue is whether the gun is reliable.

This is what I am waiting to see...

valorius
August 11, 2010, 11:07 PM
Do you bother to read anything that doesn't agree with what you have already decided? Please address the issue of the mountain of .22lr auto pistols that are out there burning through oceans of ammo every single day. I own a bunch of them myself, and I will repeat: if the magazine is properly raked, the rim is not an issue.
Gee, my experience with .22 autoloaders, of which i've owned many, is that they jam far more often than centerfire rimless autoloading pistols do. Irregardless of the misfire issue. They just jam more.

Do you read anything that disagrees with what you have already decided?

Joe Demko
August 11, 2010, 11:18 PM
Irregardless? You mean regardless or irrespective.

You need to be more specific than saying "they jam more often" or there is no point in continuing to listen to you. What do you mean by "jams?" Failure to feed? Failure to extract? Something else? Are these jams, in fact, caused by the rimmed design we are specifically discussing? Which pistols were you using when you experienced all these "jams?"
See, I have a Ruger Standard Automatic here that my dad bought in the early 1970's when I was a still a kid. It's at least 35 years old. I have a Ruger Mark II I bought myself in the late 80's. Both of them run nearly flawlessly. When they do fail, it is typically due to an out of spec (e.g. bent) round or the accumulated filth of marathon shooting sessions when we have company. I, literally, cannot think of a single malfunction attributable to the rim on a .22 lr. I also owned an Olympic Arms Wolverine that would seldom fire two shots in a row without a malfunction. That had everything to do with a vestigial feed ramp and crap magazines, but not a thing to do with the rim.

So, I breathlessly await your new, focused response.

GLOOB
August 12, 2010, 12:51 AM
I have yet to have a failure with my MKIII, and I started shooting it right after I bought it, no cleaning no lube. It's had about a thousand rounds so far, with 1 cleaning.

I've also gone well over a thousand problem free rounds through a lowly Phoenix HP22A. The only rare jams are failures to return to all the way to battery when I let my thumb ride the slide on that little gun.

If the gun cycles, feeds, and ejects, properly, I wouldn't waste any worry about ammo-related failure. I've had a single dud .22LR round in 2 years. I've also had a bad .45 ACP round that wouldn't even fit in the chamber, and one of my shooting buddies had a squib .380 last month. But we shot at least 4 times as much .22 as either of the other calibers. So maybe some other people buy the wrong stuff and shoot it out of a gun that's worse than a Phoenix Arms potmetal SNS. Or maybe they don't know how to take care of their guns. But by my count .22LR is just fine. Statistically, there will be more overall problems with your average center-fire auto pistol than I've seen .22 ammo-related misfires. I'm sure .22WMR is even better.

evan price
August 12, 2010, 01:42 AM
Right, because that guy who is firing back at you with 9mm or .357 magnum or whatever other centerfire cartridge isn't going to drop you dead where you stand after his first doubletap. 1300fps for a 30gr bullet is barely 100fpe of energy. You'd be better off (literally) stabbing your opponent.

Oh, certainly, I agree there! I only carry a .22 WMR in my NAA Mini, and that's hardly a gun at all, a BUG or a gun carried when one can't carry a "real" gun. My own testing of various 22 WMRs through my Ruger Single-Six and NAA Mini showed a disturbing lack of effect on targets like cardboard boxes and paper cups other than a tiny hole. I subscribe to more air in, more blood out = better. I don't carry for primary CCW anything smaller than 9x19 124+P.

However, for people who can't take any recoil, it'd be an interesting choice for a PMR-30 loaded with 40gr Maxi-Mags or 50-gr Game-Shoks.

valorius
August 12, 2010, 04:29 PM
Well, one thing you notice immediately on these forums, is that everybody has fired "thousands of rounds through my X model, and its never failed."

I guess when i go to the range and see people having misfeeding problems with various firearms, it must just be them...and me....that have these problems. I've seen S&W autos jam, Glocks jam, berettas jam, 1911s jam, and all manner of .22s jam. I even saw a P7 jam once.

I've fired countless .22 autos in my lifetime, and all of them have jammed at least a couple times if i shot them enough to put more than a couple hundred rounds through them. Some of them jammed constantly with ammo they didn't like. A few of them jammed regardless of the ammo i tried to use in them. Some liked to stovepipe, others liked to fail to extract, others liked to double feed, others liked to not chamber properly. And all of them would have occasional misfires.

I had a Ruger Mk III. It would jam if i didn't keep it clean and use ammo it liked.
I had a Ruger 10/22. It would jam if i didn't keep it clean and use ammo it liked.
I had a Marlin Model 60. It would jam for no apparent reason at least 1x per box. regardless of brand.
I had a Remington (cant remember the model- i returned it shortly after i bought it), and it jammed as a matter of habit.
And all of them had misfires on occasion with good ammo, and frequently with the crap bulk ammo.
I know a guy that shot himself in the calf trying to clear a jam on his Ruger Mk III. Whoops.

Irregardless? You mean regardless or irrespective.
Figure it out. :)

Joe Demko
August 12, 2010, 05:44 PM
I never said my .22's don't malfunction. In fact, I said they did malfunction when ammo was out of spec or the gun extremely dirty. You wanted to make this about rimmed cartridges not feeding in autos, so I asked you specifically to address that. You just don't have anything substantive to say about the supposed problem with the rim in .22lr's, I guess. Good day to you, then, I've heard enough of your song that I don't need to hear it again.

GLOOB
August 13, 2010, 02:24 AM
Well, one thing you notice immediately on these forums, is that everybody has fired "thousands of rounds through my X model, and its never failed."

I'm sure that this has happened, and I'm also sure that some people may or may not be stretching the truth. But at least in my case, to be clear, I stated that the last thousand or so rounds fired without issue through my HP22. I did not say the gun never failed.

See, I agree. The world isn't perfect. Guns sometimes have problems. In fact, my HP22 was a jam-o-matic out of the box. It had ejection and extraction issues. But instead of whining about how horrible all .22's are, I fixed it.

So, can anyone here regale us with stories of the unreliability of .22 WMR?
I have had .22 WMR factory ammo fail to go bang for me while hunting a couple times.
I wish someone else, other than Valorius, would back that up.

valorius
August 13, 2010, 02:39 AM
Well my friend, do a google search, and you will see plenty of people back that up.

http://www.google.com/search?q=.22wmr+misfire&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

Just one example:

Remington 597 Mis-fire/Fail to Fire - Georgia Outdoor News Forum
5 posts - 4 authors - Last post: Feb 1
Remington 597 Mis-fire/Fail to Fire Gunsmithing Discussion and Tips. ... 597 semi-auto in 22WMR that misfires/fails to fire about 80-90% of the time. .... Member Help Forum, Deer and Small Game Hunting and Trail Cams ...
forum.gon.com/showthread.php?p=4578133 - Cached - Similar

And another:

.22 magnum guys sound off.... - Gun and Game Forums
20 posts - 14 authors - Last post: Jun 11, 2008
I got a Savage 93G wood stock .22 Magnum with accutrigger a few months ago and it's a blast to shoot. I had some misfires with Winchester Dynapoint 45 gr. ammo but it likes CCI Maxi-Mags and Federal FMJ'S.

------

Google is a wonderful thing. There you can read all about people having misfires with their .22WMR rifles and ammunition.

Frankly, it amazes me that some people need to be convinced that a rimfire autoloader is not as reliable as a centerfire rimless autoloader.

GLOOB
August 13, 2010, 02:45 AM
LOL. Those are clearly problems with the gun. It's no surprise there are plenty of fools out there that don't know how to clean a gun. It used to frustrate me how mechanically inept most human beings are. But now I just take it for granted.

valorius
August 13, 2010, 02:53 AM
The second link is in no way gun related.

.22 magnum guys sound off.... - Gun and Game Forums
20 posts - 14 authors - Last post: Jun 11, 2008
I got a Savage 93G wood stock .22 Magnum with accutrigger a few months ago and it's a blast to shoot. I had some misfires with Winchester Dynapoint 45 gr. ammo but it likes CCI Maxi-Mags and Federal FMJ'S.

Bullseye_shooter
August 13, 2010, 03:05 AM
The .22 Magnum is a powerful enough round, the main problem is that rimfire is infamously known to have many misfires due to bad primers id stick with centerfire

id rather have 17 rounds of 9mm in a glock for example

GLOOB
August 13, 2010, 03:45 AM
I think nearly everyone would rather have a GLOCK. But some of us already have GLOCKs and are going to buy this gun, anyway. :)

On an unrelated note, here's a vid that might make you wonder if .22LR might be a half decent SD caliber in the right gun. I promise it'll at least put a smile on your face!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QS31Gm9tIig&feature=related

It sounds a little like a lawnmower, eh? :)

valorius
August 13, 2010, 05:50 AM
If you want the features of this gun you can have them in a centerfire rimless cartridge chambered auto pistol that holds just as many rounds, also has very low recoil, but that can hit 2000fps and 300+fpe of energy, one that will blow through class II armor with ease, while also demonstrating 5.56mm type fragmentation with some loads. And it's got a great trigger and very good accuracy to boot.

You just have to spend $850.00....

I was just shooting a friend's brand new FN Five Seven tonight. That pistol is no joke.

Manco
August 13, 2010, 09:23 AM
Well, one thing you notice immediately on these forums, is that everybody has fired "thousands of rounds through my X model, and its never failed."

I guess when i go to the range and see people having misfeeding problems with various firearms, it must just be them...and me....that have these problems.

Well, I truly have with one gun--nearly 2000 rounds with zero malfunctions now--and it happens to be my defensive handgun, an M&P40. Others have jammed on me, sometimes before reaching the 50-round mark. I've never had luck with the several .22 LR autoloaders I've tried--sometimes they even jam more than once per magazine. Although some designs may be more reliable than others, and the quality control of some manufacturers may be better than that of others, ultimately it comes down to the individual gun. And of course, each individual cartridge also plays a part. Even my defensive handgun could have malfunctioned at any point if it had been fed a defective cartridge, so some luck was definitely involved in its current record (and as always), but you won't see me having to clear it all the time at the range, either.

I've seen S&W autos jam, Glocks jam, berettas jam, 1911s jam, and all manner of .22s jam. I even saw a P7 jam once.

I've seen many jam, too, and sometimes can't believe how much trouble a particular gun is having, but the gun that I depend on is more reliable--if it were not, then I wouldn't depend on it until it was made reliable, or else I'd try a different gun.

I've fired countless .22 autos in my lifetime, and all of them have jammed at least a couple times if i shot them enough to put more than a couple hundred rounds through them. Some of them jammed constantly with ammo they didn't like. A few of them jammed regardless of the ammo i tried to use in them. Some liked to stovepipe, others liked to fail to extract, others liked to double feed, others liked to not chamber properly. And all of them would have occasional misfires.

Now here is where caliber can also contribute to the problem. With such light recoil to work with, one might reasonably expect that .22 LR autoloaders would have more reliability issues in general. I don't have nearly as much experience with .22 LR handguns as you or many others, although I've fired more than a few .22 LR rounds already, and my luck with autoloaders in this caliber has been all bad so far. They were rental guns, so I suppose that would help explain why, but rental Glocks don't jam constantly on me like this, so it must tell us something. .22 LR revolvers have been great for me, though, so ignition is not the main issue by any means. I've had enough misfires from Remington bulk ammo to avoid it altogether, and all bulk ammo will have duds from time to time, but some .22 LR loads seem to ignite as reliably as centerfire ammo in revolvers.

Up to now, reliability seems to have been an issue with .22 WMR autoloaders as well, but there haven't been many, and we'll have to wait and see with a new design coming out.

I had a Ruger Mk III. It would jam if i didn't keep it clean and use ammo it liked.

If you baby them, then they may well be fairly reliable, but I'd hesitate to use them (or any .22 LR autoloader) as a defensive weapon, unless it was all I had handy, of course. Revolvers, on the other hand, obviously avoid most jamming issues, and they are what I have in mind when discussing the defensive use of .22 LR, by the way.

Figure it out. :)

Like I said, some individual guns are more reliable out of the box than others, and maybe some of us have come across a really good one or few, just by luck. Some can become reliable after breaking in or with the help of gunsmithing, and others are lemons to a varying degree, I guess.

If you want the features of this gun you can have them in a centerfire rimless cartridge chambered auto pistol that holds just as many rounds, also has very low recoil, but that can hit 2000fps and 300+fpe of energy, one that will blow through class II armor with ease, while also demonstrating 5.56mm type fragmentation with some loads. And it's got a great trigger and very good accuracy to boot.

You just have to spend $850.00....

I was just shooting a friend's brand new FN Five Seven tonight. That pistol is no joke.

Oh please, haven't we been over this already? While I'm not saying that the Five-seveN is a joke by any means, the "5.56mm type fragmentation" you're referring to is actually a bad thing because 5.7mm doesn't hit anywhere near as hard as 5.56mm--it simply lacks the kinetic energy to wound like a centerfire rifle does, and the fragmentation only hurts its already mediocre penetration performance even more (other loads that do not fragment generally do not penetrate much more than 10" at the most, and many shots are under 9").

valorius
August 13, 2010, 01:42 PM
The Elite Ammunition co. offerings in 5.7 are MUCH hotter than the anemic FN stuff, and it is more than 2x as powerful as the impotent .22WMR coming out of a pistol barrel (probably closer to 3x more powerful)

Their V-max at 2000+fps exhibits 5.56 type fragmentation in gel- the kind that causes large quantities of tissue detachment and destruction. Destruction far, far greater than anything you're ever going to find in .22WMR at pistol velocities.

There are videos on you tube of large feral pigs being taken in 1 shot with 5.7 in a hunting setting. And i'm not talking head shots.

There are also 55gr rounds that will surpass the FBI 12" penetration requirements. (Which would probably matter to me if i was an FBI agent...)

The round is no joke.

If it will kill a big feral pig in 1 shot, you or me should expect little better outcome.

The 5.7 is in an entirely different league than the .22WMR ballistically, and so is the Five Seven when compared to the PMR-30.

And it's a centerfire, and it's rimless. Oh...and it will blow through a class II vest like hot butter. EA's V-max at 2000fps will even blow through a class II vest.

Joe Demko
August 13, 2010, 01:46 PM
Hog hunting with a .177 airgun. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKcVkqiDCYU)

valorius
August 13, 2010, 01:53 PM
Oh, so you think you can take big hogs with shoulder shots with a .22wmr pistol round then?

Jeez louise.

PS, the velocity on that .177 was 1600fps!!! That's 300 more than you're gonna get from a .22 PMR-30, but 400 less than you'll get with 5.7 EA ammo.

It was also a pretty small pig that he shot too.

AND IT WAS A HEAD SHOT.

LOL....joe, you're a hoot.

Joe Demko
August 13, 2010, 01:57 PM
Nope. I'm saying that you can kill a wild hog with a .177 airgun.

valorius
August 13, 2010, 01:59 PM
With a HEAD SHOT, lol.

The videos of 5.7 hog hunting are your typical shoulder shots, and they're much bigger animals.

Joe Demko
August 13, 2010, 01:59 PM
I'd respect your integrity more if you would respond to my posts in new posts rather than by redacting previous posts.

valorius
August 13, 2010, 02:00 PM
I am not really very concerned with what you respect Joe. I'm sure that shatters your world, but i see you as pretty much an obfuscating diversionist. :)

Further, i redacted nothing. what i did was expand on my previous post which you were already responding to within seconds (which i have no way of knowing).

A 1600fps airpellet shot to the head against a small pig is hardly analagous to 5.7 shots through a big pig's shoulder. It is an attempt at obfuscation, but i've already come to expect that from you. :)

Joe Demko
August 13, 2010, 02:16 PM
What are you saying? That round placement possibly makes a difference?

valorius
August 13, 2010, 02:17 PM
I'm saying that showing video of a .177 making head shot kills on small pigs at 1600fps is an obfuscation that has less than nothing to do with the topic, or the point i was making.

M'kay?

You might as well post pix of pigs being run through by katanas, for all the relevance it would have. How many of your 5,847 posts have been so thoroughly off topic and irrelevant to the discussion at hand?

Joe Demko
August 13, 2010, 02:28 PM
So, is shot placement important or not?

Also, have you gathered the data vis a vis the rim on the .22lr causing malfunctions yet?

valorius
August 13, 2010, 02:32 PM
Is there an ignore feature on this forum?

Ah, there it is. :)

valorius
August 16, 2010, 12:53 AM
The reliability issue with rimfire ammo relates to the way the cartridges are made. If you shoot much 22 ammo, especially the bulk packs and in particular Remington ammo, you will get fail-to-fires (FTFs) and are often caused by the primer compound not being evenly spread across the base. Also, a dirty chamber can cause misfires or light firing pin strikes. If you choose to use a 22LR, shoot the ammo you plan to use. I would choose CCI Mini Mags or CCI Velocitors. There is some discussion as to whether a HP or solid point design would be better for self defense. I don't have a strong opinion either way.

Cartridge ignition is generally more reliable with centerfire cartridges. Also, feeding 22LR through a semi-auto pistol tends to be less reliable than a center fire pistol. Whatever you choose to use, you need to test the firearm and ammo for reliability. You reduce the potential feeding problem using revolvers.
Found this on another current THR thread.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=6682045&postcount=12

Sounds familiar, no?

wyocarp
October 24, 2010, 04:38 AM
I've been shooting the heck out of mine.

The magazines get progressively harder to load after about 20 rounds. 20 rounds load fairly easily. Also, don't play with the magazines after they are loaded. Leave them loaded. The cases become indented from pushing against them to load the next round and too much of this might affect how they work.

I was disappointed when I first got the gun out of the box, but it is really growing on me. 31 rounds. Let me repeat that, 31 rounds in the gun is something that has to be tried to know how much fun we are missing with other handguns.

It has been reliable except that the magazine has to be loaded with care otherwise the front of the bullet will be too low in the magazine and the round will not load. I have found that the perfect remedy for this is to use the polymer tipped bullets from Hornady or Remington. Remington has a larger bullet weight and the Hornady is faster.

It is light. Very light. It feels lighter than a loaded LCP.

Did I mention that this is a fun handgun.

I can hardly wait to be able to buy more magazines and I was thinking tonight as I shot a rabbit with it that I need to mount a small laser on the rail.

People keep talking about wishing it was in 22LR. I doubt that will be possible.

There is also a lot of talk of concealing this handgun. It's going to be more of a challange, but I suppose it could be done. It is fairly flat and weighs nothing. Mine has been utterly reliable and I'm currently at about 1000 rounds.

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