460 S&W stuck brass


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Franco
March 28, 2010, 01:48 PM
I just started loading for my 460 XVR Mag using W296 (also H110) and found that cases got stuck after I fired them requiring me to tap the eject bar to get them out. I've experienced this with my 44 Mag but only when I loaded at extreme levels of powder -- 100% or more of the max listed in manuals.

I'm loading the 460 at about 80% of the max load shown by Hodgdon data and about 90% of the max load shown by Hornady's manual. I would not expect stuck cases at that level. Any thoughts or ideas?

I thought that maybe I was crimping too much and it caused the cases to bulge a little but: (a) I can't see or feel any bulge; and (b) the loaded cartridges slide easily into the cylinder before firing.

The gun is a blast (no pun intended) to shoot but a pain to have to tap the ejector every time in getting the brass out. Thanks in advance for your help. My specific loads are below if anyone wants that detail -- all loaded with RCBS equipment.

47.5g W296, CCI 200 primer, 240g Hornady XTP Mag, Hornady brass

40.0g W296, CCI 200 primer, 300g Hornady XTP Mag, Hornady brass

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Scrapperz
March 28, 2010, 01:52 PM
Can you give us a good picture of what the cases look like. I shoot these without stuck cases in my 460 XVR 8 3/8"

Franco
March 28, 2010, 03:36 PM
I can't seem to get a very clear picture of it with my iphone but here's one of the 300g version that I haven't yet shot. You'll notice only a slight bulge where the bullet is expanding the brass creating a very slight hour glass shape over the cartridge. I find that to be normal for straight wall cases such as 44 mag and 45-70. Again, they slip easily into the cylinder and seem to fire fine. The empty cases have already been resized and are back in the tumbler so I can't take a picture.

One thing interesting that I've notice. Probably not relevant but who knows. I'm using a #4 shell holder which I believe is correct but the brass doesn't sit centered in the holder like other cartridges do in their respective holders. I have several #4 so I tried all and it's the same, also the same when I add primers. Again, probably not relevant but wanted you to have all the info.

When I first bought the gun, I shot 20 rounds of the 200g Hornady FTX and they ejected just fine (fyi). My gun is also a 460 XVR 8 3/8". Thanks again for the assistance.

Grumulkin
March 28, 2010, 10:23 PM
If you're using new brass, then you'll have to reduce the load a bit.

If you're using previously fired resized brass, then you'll need to size the brass all the way to the head (i.e., as far as you can).

EddieCoyle
March 29, 2010, 04:03 PM
Had you previously been firing .45 Colt or .454 Casull in the revolver?

rcmodel
March 29, 2010, 04:18 PM
Now, that right there is a very good question!!

And a very likely cause of high pressure excursions when firing .460 afterward.

rc

Win1892
March 29, 2010, 07:00 PM
Them cylinder holes might be a bit crusty!?

Franco
March 29, 2010, 08:27 PM
New gun and I clean well, no crust (Win 1892). I haven't fired any 45 or 454 prior to the 460 (RCmodel and EddieCoyle). I bought the gun new and fired Hornady 200g FTX, 20 rounds, no ejection problems. I then reloaded my own using new Hornady brass applying Hornady and Hodgdon specs and ran into ejection problems. Grumulkin, do you have any basis for your advice? I did use new brass but not sure why that would create a problem. I sized the new brass prior to reloading.

I think I'm just going to use lower end load and work up to see if it's a powder issue or a gun problem. Thanks all.

Beelzy
March 29, 2010, 11:23 PM
In my gun travels, if the cases stick in the cylinder AND the primers are flattened the
load is too hot. Regardless what the manual says.

What did the primers look like?? I would use magnum pistol primers and not the rifle ones
because the cups are harder on the 200's and that could mask a pressure issue when
looking for flattened primers. IMO

Grumulkin
March 30, 2010, 01:32 AM
Grumulkin, do you have any basis for your advice?

Yea, actually I do since I also shoot and reload for one. If you're using new brass and are having ejection problems, it's because the pressure is too high for a revolver. Remember, when you ejected spent cases from a revolver you're ejecting 5 at once. Pressure may be below the SAMI maximum of 65,000 but if the cartridges won't function in your gun you'll have to download a bit.

Since I also have an Encore in 460 S&W Magnum, I tried reloads from cases that had been fired in it in the revolver. My usual technique is to size just enough to get a good grip on the bullet when reloading. The cartridges assembled using this technique ejected with difficulty even though the pressure was fairly low. I had to size the cases as far as possible (i.e., with the shellholder abutting the bottom of the die) and then the cases ejected fine.

Large rifle primers, by the way, are the proper primers to use. I found CCI primers too hard for reliable functioning in my revolver so use Federal 210M primers. You could, however even use large rifle magnum primers though I don't think there is any advantage in doing so unless the case is full of powder and you still need a bit more ooomph.

For most cartridges, I don't resize new brass but make an exception for 460 S&W cartrigdes to be fired in a revolver because if I don't size them, the bullets walk under recoil. The bullets also need a firm crimp. I use a custom Lee Factory Crimp Die for my crimping operation since I found that a roll crimp even to the point of case deformation wasn't sufficient. If you're trying to use a roll crimp, that could be your problem with case ejection.

Franco
March 30, 2010, 06:03 AM
Thanks. I did resize my new cases before loading but I also used a roll crimp. I'll get a Lee crimp die as I'm sure they aren't expensive and give that a whirl. I'll also load down a few grains and work up. Stand by.

Franco
March 30, 2010, 08:54 AM
Grumulkin, where did you get a factory crimp for 460? Lee doesn't show it to be an available product on their site nor does any dealer (midwayusa, cabelas, etc) list these. Do I need to have Lee create a custom die? Thanks.

Grumulkin
March 30, 2010, 10:17 AM
You have to send Lee 3 cartridge cases of the appropriate length and have them make a custom FCD die for you. Mine cost $55 if I remember correctly.

Once thing to be aware of, two different trim lengths for the 460 S&W Magnum are listed in the manuals. I would advise you to go with the longer length.

Franco
March 30, 2010, 11:39 AM
Ok, thanks. I think the longer length is 1.79 but I'll double check.

EddieCoyle
March 30, 2010, 11:49 AM
I would use magnum pistol primers and not the rifle ones
because the cups are harder on the 200's and that could mask a pressure issue when
looking for flattened primers. IMO

This is a bad idea. The .460 has a primer pocket for a rifle primer that is deeper than that of a pistol primer. If he seats a pistol primer all the way and still manages to get the gun to go off, the primer absolutely will end up flat because it will fly back into the breechface.

There's also a very good chance that the pistol primer will end up being pierced. I've seen it happen.

Also, Franco - are all the cases equally stuck, or is there one 'problem chamber'?

buck460XVR
March 30, 2010, 01:54 PM
If you drop your 240gr loads down to 46grs and you 300 gr loads down to 38grs I bet you'll find extraction a lot easier. These are about max for me in my XVR before I find extraction difficult. Don't know if it's the gain twist rifling, chambers or throats, but it doesn't take much for my .460 to go from easy extraction to poundin' them out with a dowel. Anyway, these loads shoot extremely accurate outta my XVR and I see no reason to go any hotter. I have been using a lot of IMR4227 lately in the X-Frame and find that it shoots very well also. BTW.....Your load of 40grn with a 300gr XTP is almost a grain over max in the Hornady manual.


EDIT....Eddie is correct....use large rifle primers with .460 brass.

hydraulicman
March 30, 2010, 05:20 PM
this tread makes me want an x frame woo hoo

Franco
April 3, 2010, 03:07 PM
Buck, you're dead on. I loaded some 240gr with 44 and 46gr and some 200gr FTX w/ 48 and 50gr. No extraction problems with any of them. I think the lower loads with the two different bullets were the more accurate but I'll test that again. One case did blow literally in half and I had to use a screwdriver to dig out the top half. Probably just a bad piece of brass or maybe weakened from my previous overloads. I know the 300gr load was a little hot per Hornady but it wasn't at all per Hodgdon so I split the difference.... I'll probably load the 300gr with 38grns of W296 for my next trip to the range.

Thanks for help.

buck460XVR
April 3, 2010, 04:45 PM
One thing interesting that I've notice. Probably not relevant but who knows. I'm using a #4 shell holder which I believe is correct but the brass doesn't sit centered in the holder like other cartridges do in their respective holders. I have several #4 so I tried all and it's the same, also the same when I add primers. Again, probably not relevant but wanted you to have all the info.



#4 RCBS is the one I use. I also use a Hornady #46 Both work exactly the same. Case centers in the shellholder and dies just like the cases in the other calibers I load for.


One case did blow literally in half and I had to use a screwdriver to dig out the top half. Probably just a bad piece of brass or maybe weakened from my previous overloads.

Was it a Hornady case and did it look like this? I've found that they don't like a lot of heavy loads. I have also found that unlike many other revolver cartridges, that the cases will stretch more and be of of different lengths, so trimming or at least checking for length helps to keep crimps consistent. Not only to assure the bullets stay put under the recoil, but it doesn't take much to buckle the cases when applying the heavy crimp to cases that have grown longer than the case you set up the crimp for. This buckle tends to appear in the same place that the cases want to crack or split. Look for a shiny ring in the same place after tumbling your previously shot cases. Haven't figured out yet whether it is the way Hornady makes their cases, a problem from to much pressure, or a combination of both. Regardless, I've yet to have the same thing happen with Starline brass, but then again, I've gotten more conservative with my loadings. Hodgdon's starting loads for the .460 are almost max in my gun.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v333/buckanddot/bucks/100_3614.jpg

Franco
April 4, 2010, 08:32 AM
Yes, almost exactly like yours except there was a little fold at the top of the case. That fold was exacerbated slightly when I had to use a screwdriver to poke it out. Here's a picture. Although not a good one, you can see that my split was almost identical. I also found lengths to be inconsistent and I therefore trim every case every time. I think I'm going to limit to 3-4 reloads for this brass. I too am going to become more conservative in my loads, probably staying around 44-46gr with the 240grn XTP Mag and 48-50gr with the 200grn FTX. Thanks for the advice. If nothing else, at least I know that it's not only me having these issues!

Franco
April 4, 2010, 08:51 AM
Also posting a pic of my recently scoped XVR for anyone who's interested. (see thread "460 S&W Recoil") I used a 2x fixed leupold with very heavy Warne base and rings. High rings so that I can fit my gloved thumb between the scope and hammer next winter. Not the prettiest thing in the world but should be effective. I looked at the variable scopes but anything 4x and over had such a small field of view that I can't imagine hunting with it unless you're in a stand with a very stable 360 degree shooting rail. Hunting primarily in SW PA my longest shot will likely be less than 100yds so 2x is fine. I've shot 60 pretty heavy rounds so far with this scope and no adjustments yet needed.

Grumulkin
April 5, 2010, 02:16 PM
When you are firing full house 460 S&W loads you will get case head separations which is what the above photo shows and yes, it will happen with Starline brass too.

How soon a head separation will occur depends among other things on cartridge design, load pressure and chamber dimensions. Case head separations generally don't happen for quite a number of reloadings in straight walled cases but things change at 460 S&W Magnum pressure. What happens is when fired, the case expands to chamber diameter. When resized, the case brass is circumferentially forced inward and the displaced brass has to go somewhere. It takes the path of least resistance which is toward the case mouth and not toward the thick brass at the case head. This means there is progressive thinning of the brass above the web of the case until a head separation occurs.

Run a wire with the tip bent to 90 degrees down the inside of previously used cases. That way, you can feel the groove when it begins to form and can discard the case before a head separation occurs.

Franco
April 11, 2010, 07:14 AM
Thanks. Good advice. I'm also going to limit reloads to 3 or 4 with the 460 just to be safe. I've dropped my 240gr XTP load to 45g of W296/H110 and for the 200gr FTX I'm using 50.5g. This way I'm well below published maximums but, also, both bullets have plenty of power and roughly the same trajectory at 50yds so I won't have to adjust my scope between the two.

This is the first gun that has really taken some work to get the right loads, sight in, etc but it's turned out to be my favorite revolver. Really fun to shoot and should prove to be an effective deer/bear/hog gun. The only folks who don't like it are the ones within 10yds to my right or left at the range....

Mr.Revolverguy
April 11, 2010, 09:42 AM
I have not had this problem with my 460. But after 12 reloads I paint the base red with the wifes finger nail polish, sssshhhh don't tell her :). I picked 12 because that's when my micrometer had the greatest variation after firing, when measuring the web/base of the case. Is this scientific no but reloadings 4 through 10 showed no difference in expansion of the web, then on 11 there was a big difference.

But I fear your 200gr load is way to hot. Hodgdon the maker of H110 and W296, their manual says max load for 200gr bullet is 46.5, I have found the most accurate is 45.5 for me, but I do not shoot 200gr all that much.

My loads which are most accurate for me are
250gr Barnes X H110 40.5gr 2010-2085 FPS over Chrono

To avoid risk of harm of me or anyone else after 12 loadings I take the red base painted brass and load factory 454 in them.

This load is "most accurate in my gun"
250gr Barnes X LilGun 27gr 1690-1730FPS Over Chrono - H110 downloaded to 454 levels in 460 cases sucked very inaccurate.

I have been doing a lot of my own personal research if you can call it that with the 460 while trying to remain safe a possible. There has been tons of talk of longevity problems with the X Frame with such high pressure rounds. Well with my brass and the process above I have 32 loadings so far out of some cases with no neck splits or case separation. I am very careful not to expand the case mouth much for bullet seating. With this process I expect that the case mouth will split long before any case separation like any other handgun brass. When that happens I plan to try and document my findings on my website http://www.dayattherange.com

Franco
April 12, 2010, 06:38 AM
I'm not sure where you're getting the load data for Hornady's 200gr FTX. That bullet isn't even listed on Hodgdon's website. They do list a Barnes but not Hornady. If you go to Hornady's site, they list the range for W296 from 43.3 to 51.4. I've shot many rounds w/ 51gr with no sticking or brass problems. Having said that, I understand that caution is always recommended with this powerful weapon! Thanks for the input.

Mr.Revolverguy
April 12, 2010, 07:28 PM
Franco,

In my previous post notice I said this was Hodgdon's recommendation and I mentioned it was a 200gr bullet not a 200gr FTX.

I should have been more clear understanding you could not read my mind :)

Anytime I reload (notice this is my practice for safety reasons) I use the companies recommendation of the powder I choose to use. If the components are not the same between the recipe and what I am using. I will then crack open other reloading manuals (like in this case Hornady) to try and find the exact components I am using. Mainly what I am looking for here is to see how different the starting load is compared between the two. As long as the starting the load is the same I will then start there and work my way to what is most accurate and produces the least spread in my weapon.

Franco
April 13, 2010, 06:10 AM
Thanks. I do something similar. I use mostly Hodgdon powders so I start with their recommended loads but then I also go to the bullet manufacturer's manual regardless whether it's specifically mentioned in the Hodgdon data. I have found that Hodgdon is pretty liberal with their load data and the bullet manufacturers tend to be more conservative. I take the highest safe load listed that is most conservative (I.e. the smaller of the two highest safe loads) and crank back a couple grains to start. It's usually somewhere in the middle range.

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