Developing load for ACP .45 lead RN


PDA






JimGun
March 28, 2010, 07:21 PM
I have just received from Missouri Bullet my Lead RN 230 gr. bullets. According to Hodgdon website, the low load for these rounds is:
4.5 grs. H. Universal with C.O.L. of 1.200 producing 703 fps.
From my Speer Manual 13th Ed. the low load for these rounds is:
5.2 grs. H. Universal with C.O.L. of 1.270 producing 748 fps.

I would like an informed opinion of the effect of C.O.L. on shot performance.
Additionally, since I always like to start at the lowest load on a new bullet load and work my way up, I would like to know of any pitfalls with starting at the 4.5 gr load?

thanks for any info,

Jim

If you enjoyed reading about "Developing load for ACP .45 lead RN" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
Walkalong
March 28, 2010, 10:30 PM
1.200 is way too short for a RN 230 Gr lead bullet. 1.265 is more like it.

5.2 Grs Universal with that bullet between 1.265 to 1.270 will be a perfectly safe place to start. Shoot for 1.268 and you should stay within 1.265 and 1.270.

P-32
March 29, 2010, 12:31 AM
4.6 grs of Bullseye with a CCI primer is an old Bullseye or (National Match) practice load. If your pistol won't shoot this some thing is wrong.

918v
March 29, 2010, 12:47 AM
1.200 is way too short for a RN 230 Gr lead bullet. 1.265 is more like it.


1.200" is a correct OAL for a bullet with a 1R nose profile.

cray2751
March 29, 2010, 12:50 AM
That is what Hodgdon has for that load. None of my other load books has a listed COAL for that powder/bullet combo. You should be gtg. Load some dummy rounds and see what your barrel likes.

Steve C
March 29, 2010, 02:50 AM
OAL make the most pressure difference in small case capacity cartridges like the .32 caliber and 9mm. In the .45 ACP its pretty much a non issue as the case is large and pressures are low but it is important for feed and chambering. Set your OAL to chamber in your pistols barrel, compare it with a factory load to match fit. This often takes trial and error to find what works. The OAL listed in the Speer manual is for the profile of their bullet. Bullets of other makes may have different profiles and require a shorter OAL to fit in the chamber properly.

The 4.7gr load is very light and you run the risk of a load that will not cycle the action briskly enough to function properly. I'd suggest that you test 50 rounds with varying levels of charge to determine the best one to use. Speers maximum is 5.5 grs so if you start at 4.7grs and increase by 0.2grs you can make 10 rounds at each charge level (4.7, 4.9, 5.1, 5.3 and 5.5) and use up one box of cases. Test for function and accuracy and then select the load you will load from then on. Better than just picking a load and hoping that its a good one.

Walkalong
March 29, 2010, 07:32 AM
1.200" is a correct OAL for a bullet with a 1R nose profile.
It's too short for the Missouri bullet he has, despite the fact it is blunter than some. That 1.200 on the Hodgdon website has confused more than one new reloader.

918v
March 29, 2010, 11:22 AM
Why is it too short?

rcmodel
March 29, 2010, 12:46 PM
Because it is too short.
Seating the MB 230 at 1.200" would put the ogive down inside the case neck and leave a gap between the case & the bullet ogive.

You may be correct that 1.200" is right for a 1-radius bullet.

But 230 grain .45 ACP 1-R bullets are few and far between when you buy cast bullets.

Some commercial cast bullets, such as Missouri Bullet, use the Magma 45-230 RN BB mold, which is slightly different then a true 230 grain GI bullet.

Magma mold 45-233-RN-BB is very close to the GI bullet profile, and doesn't have a driving band shoulder.

Proper OAL for them is going to be just about the same as GI hardball, or 1.266" - 1.271".

This is the MB 45-230-RN-BB the OP ask about.
It should be seated to the foreword edge of the driving band.

Whatever the OAL comes out to be, Is what it is.
But it won't be 1.200".

http://www.missouribullet.com/cw3/assets/product_full/softball.jpg

rc

Walkalong
March 29, 2010, 02:08 PM
Why is it too short?
Because it is too short.Yep.

JimGun
March 29, 2010, 02:35 PM
let me show my ignorance one more time. Should I put a taper crimp on a Missouri Bullet .45 RN and should the top of the case cover the grease line but not exceed the band?

rcmodel
March 29, 2010, 02:48 PM
As I said in post #9.
It should be seated to the foreword edge of the driving band.

Seat to the forward sharp edge and leave the round pointy part sticking out.

Taper crimp to .472" Max - .469" Min case mouth measurement.
You must taper-crimp to at least straighten out the case mouth bell necessary to get the lead bullets started in the case.

rc

JimGun
March 29, 2010, 03:02 PM
Thanks, RC. I got the round pointy part still visible and I'm heading for the range.

MulticalinMO
March 29, 2010, 03:04 PM
I use Missouri Bullet softball! 230 gr. round nose. 5 gr. of Bullseye with a COAL of 1.265. Works great in any .45 I have tried it in, and it feeds just as well as ball ammo. Just enough crimp to take the bell out so as to not work the brass too much. Don't know how many times they can be reloaded, but it is a LOT!

Skip in Kingsville

ir3e971
March 29, 2010, 03:16 PM
I have been seating my MBC LRN at 1.240. Perhaps I need to re-examine that and adjust out further.

Seemse to work well with Unique, Bullseye, and Titegroup.

earplug
March 29, 2010, 03:37 PM
I have to seat my Lee mold cast bullets deeper then some manuals spec for equal bullet weight, due to the bullet engaging the rifling ahead of the chamber.
Then they don't allow the barrel and slide to lock up.
I have found some other lead bullets have the same problem.
I yank the barrel out of my 1911 and do some chamber checking with new reloads. If they don't fit, I keep seating them deeper until they chamber.
Deeper seating will increase pressure for the same charge weight.

loadedround
March 29, 2010, 10:25 PM
I put a very slight taper crimp on all my 45 ACP loads.

918v
March 29, 2010, 11:33 PM
It's too short for the Missouri bullet he has, despite the fact it is blunter than some. That 1.200 on the Hodgdon website has confused more than one new reloader.
See post #19.

The reason Hodgdon lists an OAL of 1.200" is due to the various profiles available and 1.200" is the lowest common denominator. Their data indicates a particular velocity and pressure at the lowest practical OAL for the 230gr bullet weight in the 45 ACP. It is hardly confusing.

I liked RC's explanation.

Walkalong
March 30, 2010, 10:17 AM
I liked rc's explanation as well. As usual he was quite clear and correct, but that 1.200 has confused more than one person, and it is too short for that Missouri bullet. It is not a 1R bullet. AC

918v
March 30, 2010, 11:53 AM
Like I said before, the 1.200" OAL is the lowest practical seating depth for the 230gr weight- 1R RN, TC, etc. A reasonable person looking at the data knows he is safe as long as the OAL remains 1.200" or higher. That's not confusing, but does require a bit of research prior to use, as does reloading in general. You should never blindly slap together anything.

Another example: Sierra data shows their 125gr FMJ RN loaded to 1.090" OAL. But wait a minute! Aren't those loaded to 1.150"+ ususlly??? Is Sierra trying to purposefully confuse the reloader? On purpose? With malice aforethought?

I don't think so.

JimGun
March 30, 2010, 03:18 PM
Back from the range, using 5.2 grs of Universal with the MBC 230 L-RN, COL of 1.265 I had an average of 720 fps on twenty round, which I am very pleased with. Now, I also bought a Lewis Lead Remover when I bought my MBC. How many times should I run the brass screen through the barrel? Do any of you also use a solvent?
Thanks for any info.
Jim

floydster
March 30, 2010, 03:29 PM
I don't use my Lewis lead remover anymore, I cut a piece from a Chore Boy"all copper' pad and rap it around a brass brush, I run this thru the bore dry and it takes the lead out in an amazing hurry.
Been doing this many years in all my pistols I shoot lead in.

Works great for me.

Floydster

rcmodel
March 30, 2010, 03:57 PM
How many times should I run the brass screen through the barrel?The LLR is only needed if the barrel is heavily leaded in the rifling grooves.

Not required for normal cleaning every time you shoot lead bullets.

Your gun will probably shoot better if you leave the slight film of lead & bullet lube in there. Every time you clean it out, you have to re-foul it again before cast bullets will shoot most accurately.

rc

Walkalong
March 30, 2010, 04:56 PM
That's not confusing,When people post here, confused by the 1.200 O.A.L., then it must be somewhat confusing. That is what I based my opinion on. People posting here wondering why 1.200 when most of what they see is a good deal longer for RN bullets. Simple enough.

rcmodel
March 30, 2010, 05:04 PM
I agree.
It is confusing.

Most new reloaders, and a majority of old experianced ones, expect the listed OAL in the manual to be what you are supposed to use with that bullet.

Not the minimum that you could ever use with a goofy 1-R bullet nobody sells.

rc

ljnowell
March 30, 2010, 05:10 PM
Because it is too short.
Seating the MB 230 at 1.200" would put the ogive down inside the case neck and leave a gap between the case & the bullet ogive.

You may be correct that 1.200" is right for a 1-radius bullet.

But 230 grain .45 ACP 1-R bullets are few and far between when you buy cast bullets.

Some commercial cast bullets, such as Missouri Bullet, use the Magma 45-230 RN BB mold, which is slightly different then a true 230 grain GI bullet.

Magma mold 45-233-RN-BB is very close to the GI bullet profile, and doesn't have a driving band shoulder.

Proper OAL for them is going to be just about the same as GI hardball, or 1.266" - 1.271".

This is the MB 45-230-RN-BB the OP ask about.
It should be seated to the foreword edge of the driving band.

Whatever the OAL comes out to be, Is what it is.
But it won't be 1.200".


I think if you did seat the bullet all the way flush with the driving band, it may be 1.20 or thereabouts. I have loaded alot of the 230 gr Missouir Bullet softballs, and I like mine around 1.230-1.240. There is still some of the band showing at that length. To load them out to 1.265 there will be a large amount of it showing. You really cant load them to a total flush with the band and have a normal OAL.

Werewolf
March 30, 2010, 05:10 PM
I put 8.2 grs of Accurate #5 under that 230gr LRN bullet. OAL is 1.5. This load chronies for me at an avg of 880 FPS with a std dev of of 12 FPS out of a 5" barrel 1911. It is a very accurate load.

But less accurate out of my Sig P220 with a 4.2" barrel. For that gun I use 5.3 grs HP-38at a COL of 1.2. Chronies at 830 + 10 FPS. Works great in the shorter barrel, very accurate, not so much out of the 5" standard 1911 barrel. This load is straight out of the Hogdon manual.

Don't know about the guys saying 1.2 is too short. Have no clue what a 1-R bullet is. Could you guys explain in more detail - learning new stuff is important - especially so when it comes to ammo.

That Said:
Been reloading for about 8 years now and have never had any problems with any bullet in .45ACP at an OAL of 1.2 though most of my loads do run 1.5 to 1.27.

rcmodel
March 30, 2010, 05:27 PM
1-R, 2-R, 3-R etc means the radius of the ogive in calibers.

One radius or 1-R bullet design.
http://www.leeprecision.com/graphics/bullets/3561021r.gif

Two radius, or 2-R bullet design.
http://www.leeprecision.com/graphics/bullets/3561252r.gif

Three radius, or 3-R bullet design.
http://www.leeprecision.com/graphics/bullets/459-500-3r.gif

The more R's, the longer the bullet will be for any given weight.
Also, the longer the seated OAL will be.

rc

Werewolf
March 30, 2010, 05:45 PM
1-R, 2-R, 3-R etc means the radius of the ogive in calibers.
Ahhhhh... that explains a lot.

But why does it change OAL measurements?

It does appear that the R number would have an impact on how the bullet would feed into the chamber - is that even relevant?

Jeff H
March 30, 2010, 07:18 PM
Heck, my 230 LRN are seated out at 1.265 (not Missouri but the same Magma mold) and don't give me any issues in my 1911. They feed and cycle perfectly.

918v
March 31, 2010, 12:58 AM
Ahhhhh... that explains a lot.

But why does it change OAL measurements?

It does appear that the R number would have an impact on how the bullet would feed into the chamber - is that even relevant?
Due to the geometry of the bullet, a 1R ogjive will hit the rifling sooner at a given OAL than a more slender design. A 1R bullet simply will not chamber in a standard 45 ACP chamber at an OAL of 1.260". The bullet will hit the rifling before the case is fully seated and will result in a failure to feed malfunction.

918v
March 31, 2010, 01:06 AM
I agree.
It is confusing.

Most new reloaders, and a majority of old experianced ones, expect the listed OAL in the manual to be what you are supposed to use with that bullet.

Not the minimum that you could ever use with a goofy 1-R bullet nobody sells.

rc
If they expect a certain OAL, then they should be using the bullet manufacturer's data, not the powder manufacturer's data. Powder manufacturer's data has to be universal. Bullet manufacturer's data has to be specific.

People should read a manual before reloading. Things like OAL vs. pressure are usually covered.

twice barrel
March 31, 2010, 01:06 PM
I happen to like that "softball" over 4.8gr Hodgdon Universal at 1.235. I do use a firm taper crimp and like how it looks, feeds, and shoots. Once the barrel heats up the lube sure smokes a trail.
:D

918v
March 31, 2010, 01:47 PM
How did you arrive at the 1.235" OAL? In other words, why did you not stick to the 1.260" OAL promoted by other people in this thread? Did you try the longer OAL first? Did the bullet hit the rifling prematurely?

twice barrel
March 31, 2010, 02:00 PM
Well, this thread came after I worked up my load. It drops into my barrel's chamber, feeds thru my magazine/action, and shoots well. I just didn't chase anymore combinations down.

TB

Skip_a_roo
March 31, 2010, 06:13 PM
No, 1.200 is not too short. It, the reloading data, is a recipe, period.

Let's say you make a cake. Put in too much salt. It isn't going to turn out right.

Same way with a reloading recipe. 1.200" is the OAL with that weight of powder in those type of cases with that kind of primer and bullet, period. If you try to substitute anything you had better do it with more knowledge than most home reloaders have.

The 4.5gr load works because the OAL is 1.200". Change that OAL to 1.265" and you may get a stuck bullet in your barrel. Of course, no big deal as long as you don't chase it with another one! ;)

That is the reason for the difference in charge weight. It means that the seating depth is less making more room in the case. That means that pressure is going to drop, and that could mean that you don't have enough pressure to drive that bullet out of the barrel. Maybe.

If you want a longer OAL, use the other recipe and go up in charge weight. Use the recipe, plain and simple.

I have several loads that call for a 1.190" OAL. I also have several that call for a 1.275" OAL. Guess what, different powders, different weights of the same powder.

Sorry to be long winded.

918v
March 31, 2010, 07:44 PM
I disagree. Hodgron's load data for the 230gr LRN is generic, not specific to a particular projectile. They specify a 1.200" OAL to keep people safe. If they called for a 1.270" OAL with a generic LRN, and someone got a hold of some of those "goofy" 1R bullets, by casting them maybe, and then realized they would not chamber at 1.270" and then seated them deeper and damaged his gun... See where I'm going? Due to dozens of different mold profiles, it's better to be safe than sorry.

Also, there is the issue of throat diameter. Most commercial .45 ACP cast bullets mike .452". Most .45 ACP chambers have .453" throats and accept the front driving of a .452" bullet without any problems. Some chambers, however, have .452" throats and will not accept the front driving band of a .452" bullet. I had a Wilson CQB with a .452" throat. I had to size my bullets to .4515" in order for them to chamber using a normal OAL.

Now, some people are not willing to resize their bullets and simply reduce the OAL until the round chambers. Afterall, the nose is much smaller in diameter than the front driving band. They have no issue with taking a Missouri Bullet and seating the front driving band flush with the case mouth. I hope everyone sees where this is going. I can assure you Hodgdon is aware of this and has taken the necessary precautions when developing their data.

Skip_a_roo
March 31, 2010, 08:06 PM
No, 918v, Hodgdon's data is super specific for most of their data. Look at it. data.hodgdon.com

I understand your problem, I had it too with the Lee 228gr LRN. That is one silly mould!
Case in point with that bullet though, because there is so much of it sticking out of the case, the base of the bullet is not seated as deep as it would be if you used a standard 2R bullet, allowing for more powder space.

I cast a 230gr Saeco 456(?) with a reduced nose, much like the H&G #34. It is a wonderful bullet.

One thing for sure, the more of your bullet that is in the case, the higher the pressure. If you have a reduced area in the case, you could use a lighter charge and be just fine. It's give and take on that point.

I know this first hand, if you use too light of a load and have the OAL too long for that recipe, you are going to get a stuck bullet, period.

918v
March 31, 2010, 08:13 PM
If H's data is super specific, what brand of LRN are they using to develop their data? What mold was that LRN cast in?

Skip_a_roo
March 31, 2010, 08:26 PM
No, no, you are misunderstanding me. Read my post. MOST partner, I said, MOST.

If you use the Lee 2R bullet, and seat it to the 1.200" OAL, how much of that bullet is in the case? Will pressure be higher or lower if you were to use a 1R bullet?

We are in agreement, I think. If I have to use one of those silly bullets and seat it as short as they say to get it to chamber, and you do if you use them, then I had better stick with their powder recommendations too. If I can go to a longer OAL, then I can increase the powder charge and have the same pressure and still have the round chamber.

I can seat my bullet out to 1.275". If I use the 4.5gr, what will my velocity be and what pressure will I develop? If I seat that bullet out to 1.275" and use 5.5gr what will I get? Remember, the bullet I am using will seat that long and still chamber and feed from my magazines.

I think we agree more than not. You may be having a problem understanding what I am trying to say. My problem, not yours. I'll keep trying though! :)

918v
March 31, 2010, 08:35 PM
You're right, I missed the "most" part. We are in agreement.

ArchAngelCD
April 2, 2010, 02:35 AM
I charge 5.5gr W231/HP-38 with 230gr bullets like those made by MB and use a OAL of between 1.260" and 1.270" like most everyone else here. I don't think I've loaded any other bullet/powder combination for the .45 Auto in years...

Walkalong
April 2, 2010, 07:35 AM
Yep. Hard to beat 5.0 to 5.5 Grs W-231. No need for a beginner to try anything else unless they just like to experiment. Yea, of course there are other excellent options, but that one just seems to universally work well.

ruger1228
April 2, 2010, 03:04 PM
Here is the load I worked up for 230gr LRN bullets for S&S castings bullets:
Hodgdon Univeral Clays: 5.4gr
Federal LP primers 150
Federal Cases
COL 1.235-1.245"
These feed perfectly in both my Kimber Pro-Carry and Kimber Ultra-Carry.
No FTF or FTE. And this load is very accurate in both pistols
thom

If you enjoyed reading about "Developing load for ACP .45 lead RN" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!