[bartv]

What ammo do you use in your everyday carry sidearm and why?
Personally,I currently use the 185 grain Golden Saber jhp in my USP .45 but considering switching to Cor Bon's Pow'rball because it seems to offer the best of both worlds in terms of penetration/expansion and all comments about it so far have generally been on the positive side.
In addition it has the ability to feed reliably in pistols that have problems with hollow points like my CZ-97 which is loaded with fmj, which in my opinion is adequate for any defensive purpose I might require of it.

Still have loads of questions but one at a time :)

[sm]

Reliable everytime in that gun
POA/POI
JHP
Of which I run 300-500 rds before I carry a particular load for CCW in a bottom feeder. I then just grab one of the said tested loads and carry it--don't worry about it after that, whichever is handy

Rest it gravy, I use the scientific mud test and results from critters.

[bartv]

Just finished reading Cor Bon's website. They advertise the Pow'rball 165 grain +P at 1225 fps and 550 ft/lbs of energy. Sounds good to me but I wonder if a pistol can take these pressures without damaging something if I put 300-500 rounds to see if it is compatible with my gun.

But I think 1225 fps and 550ft/lbs of energy is really attractive.

[Preacherman]

A member of the API e-mail list posted this comment last week:we tried 165 CorBon Power Ball (1225 fps) this weekend - the hog was underwhelmed with lung hits. As my son told me, there is no advantage to making a .38 out of a .45 (duh...you would think I would know that).I take his point... the Cor-Bon Pow'rBall is very fast, but rather light for caliber. As all light-for-caliber loads, its penetration is not as deep as I'd like. I also carry the Remington Golden Saber 185gr. +P JHP in .45 ACP, and like it very much. (There's a reason it's the standard issue load for the FBI's Hostage Rescue Teams, you know... :D ) I've also bought some of the Pow'rBall, and am slowly but surely testing it in various media. It seems less accurate than the Remington (4" groups at 25 yards, as opposed to 2" for the Remington), and is certainly snappy in recoil. I want to see what penetration is like.

[Drjones]

Tell me what you think is effective defensive ammo

.50 AE out of a Desert Eagle.


:D :D :D

[Longbow]

.50 AE out of a Desert Eagle.

That's more like an offensive ammo to both shooter and target. :D

[fix]

Must go bang every time. All else is gravy.

[Black Snowman]

5.56 NATO, I use 55gr hollowpoints. For home defense that is. Since this is in Handguns I'd say my priorities are:
Energy - It takes energy to do work.
Penetration - Doesn't matter how much work you do if it's not in something vital
Accuracy - Doesn't matter how much work you do if it's not in the right place.
As part of accuracy being able to make accurate follow-up shots is also important.

I don't have CCW but when my home defense firearm was a pistol it was a Glock 24P because I knew I could shoot well with it and the .40 S&W out of a 6" barrel with 15 rounds on tap and 15 more in a spare were good enough for me.

[Brigrat]

I recomend spending some time over at www.ammolab.com or www.tacticalforums.com they have quite a bit of info on defensive loads available to the readers. This site is great also, but I always like to braden my horizons, and get info from varying sources. Good defensive loads to me, meet the following criteria:

1. Must go boom every single time!!!

2. Must penetrate 12"+ every time!!!

3. Must reliably expand, even through 4-layer denim!!!

I use this criteria for choosing defensive loads for my primary weapons systems. I am a little more forgiving when it comes to backups (Beretta Jetfire and the like). Finding reliable data is the most difficult part of this equation, so using the site I mentioned above may be usefull.

[Mil Novecientos Once]

Well said Brigrat, I'll add

4. SHOT PLACEMENT: There is no magic bullet.

[tbeb]

.38 special+P Federal 158 gr. lead hollowpoint in snubnose revolver. It will penetrate enough. It may expand. It may deform. If it doesn't do either then I'm still launching a heavy (for caliber) bullet doing around 800 fps.

[10mmshooter]

Either 10mm Cor Bon 165 GR JHP, or Hornady Custom 200 GR XTP JHP....both loaded into a 1911 with a 5 inch barrel.
My reasons are because both exhibit deep penetration, and reliable expansion, and the 10mm is one serious hand cannon! With 9 rounds of this stuff in the gun, and another 8 on hand...I have no worries of being under-gunned! Also...both of these rounds have proven themselves to be 100% reliable feeding wise in my Dan Wesson.
Although, I may consider trying some of DoubleTaps 230 GR offerings!:)

[CZF]

Doesn't the FBI HRT use the 230 gr Golden Saber?? Wasn't that the load
for the accuracy tests in 1911s to meet the contract?

I think 165 is best left for a .40, not a .45. No sense in going to a big
bore auto if you choose to load light bullets.

I really prefer a 10mm., both big, heavy and fast, but top end loads can
be a problem to control for some people.

The Mighty TEN has a reputation as a Hog Gun, and Bear Gun, and
Whitetail Gun, ect. :)

[N3rday]

+p or +p+ if your gun can take it without messin up service life, preferably a good hollowpoint or even a JHP.

a +p+ hollowpoint would give kickass penetration with a good expansion, but just carry any bullet that is reliable in your gun and you feel comfortable with.

If you can put 4 rounds into somebody with normal ammo in the same time it takes to put 3 +p+ rounds in, you might as well go fro the more comfortable, lower recoil round

[BluesBear]

:rolleyes: . . . . :rolleyes: . . . . :rolleyes:

How many different calibers actually come in a real +P+ loading?

There aren't even that many that have a true +P.

[Hal]

As my son told me, there is no advantage to making a .38 out of a .45 kid's got a good head on his shoulders - - More horse-sense than lots of folks that have been around a lot longer.

Effective - big, heavy, and just quick enough.

[WonderNine]

Tell me what you think is effective defensive ammo

Whatever bullet will drill through their skull without looking back. Generally FMJ or lead, but steel core FMJ if you can find any.

That's a "one shot stop".

Hahha

[bartv]

Big , heavy, and just quick enough makes sense. But doesn't speed account for effective penetration as well?

Some additional info I read somewhere before stated that Massad Ayoub, IIRC or one the known shooting experts (please correct me if I'm wrong) prefers to use fmj for defensive carry. Is there anyone who can agree that this has more advantages than holow points?

[Poohgyrr]

Well, I really prefer full caliber slugs out of a 12 ga. Otherwise, accuracy and power are important. Ammolab has some good information.

[clubsoda22]

I take his point... the Cor-Bon Pow'rBall is very fast, but rather light for caliber. As all light-for-caliber loads, its penetration is not as deep as I'd like.

So, 12+ inches of penetration with absolutely reliable expansion every time isn't good enough for you?

http://www.ammolab.com/corbon_prb_45.htm
http://www.ammolab.com/corbon_prb_40.htm

the .45 averaged 13.6" of penetration and expansion to .71"
the .40 averaged 14.3" of penertation and expansion to .62"

No other handgun round expanded as reliably through clothing or barriers.

I know the guy who owns Ammolab....guess what he recommends?

[Sean Smith]

Typically Pro Load 155gr or 180gr Gold Dots in 10mm Auto. 175gr Silvertips in a pinch.

[HSMITH]

Hogs are built quite a lot tougher than people, and wild hogs with russian in them are drastically tougher than people. Go shoot some whitetails with the powerball and I think you will find it VERY effective on broadside shots.

I have 135 grain Nosler JHP cruising out a tad over 1500 FPS in my 40. I have 125 grain Speer JHP cruising out a tad over 1700 FPS in my 357. I have 230 grain HydraShoks in my 45 acp. I subscribe to both the "massive energy dump" and "big bullet going deep" theories. I have seen both in action on critters and both work. The energy dump works a lot faster in putting something down and out but the big deep hole is a little more reliable. You make choices and you live with them. My primary defensive gun is a 40, and it deposits amazing energy with the load I choose. I figure if I need to shoot someone I want it over RIGHT NOW with one or two hits, and energy dump is what will put someone down quickly and for long enough for me to get clear of the situation or gain some worthwhile tactical advantage like hard cover etc.

I like to work WITH the strong points of the gun and cartridge. The 45 acp in a 1911 platform is a "big and slow" gun IMO, but I too have been looking at the Cor-Bon Powerball and think it a great choice especially for the milspec or non-tuned guns out there.

[clubsoda22]

smith, even with well tuned guns, i still think powerball is a great choice, the FMJ profile hollowpoint has more advantages than just feeding, it also has better flight characteistics and more reliable expansion through a variety of barriers. I was one of the first to go out and buy federal EFMJ when it came out, i think this corbon stuff will win the market in the end.

[bartv]

I'm not an expert but I have to agree with clubsoda22 on the Pow'rball having better flight characteristics since it's rounded nose makes it more aerodynamic. I always thought that hollow points tend to have more drag since the bullet cavity has a larger and flatter frontal area than fmjs or the Pow'rball.

So far the only downside I see in the Pow'rball is its weight, but thats just me.

[cidirkona]

I've been told that the energy = velocity squared times mass. The more velocity lost in target the better, thus whichever slows the most will transfer more energy into the target. aka the highest entering speeds and shortest impact distance. Most people aren't more than 12 inches thick and in self defense situations I wouldn't want to shoot all the way through them anyways... HPs for me.

-Colin

PS: "big and slow" is nice when "slow" is 200 times faster than an attacker

[clubsoda22]

i think you'd be plesantly supprised to know that the light powerball bullets penetrate 13" of gelatin consistantly. www.ammolab.com

[Jeff OTMG]

RBCD, mountains of velocity. Be it a .38 Spec., 9mm, or .40 S&W
www.rbcd.net

[Andrew Wyatt]

1. It goes bang every time.

2. it penetrates at least 16 inches into the target and doesn't skip off things like bone.

everything else is gravy.

[Dr.Rob]

1. Whatever you shoot best. (caliber/weapon combo)

2. Reliability. Ammo AND firearm.

3. Accuracy in that given caliber/weapon.

4. Penetration/expansion.

I love my 45's. If I had to shoot someone, I'd rather shoot them with a .45 or 357. However, I shoot my 9mm far better. I practice with my 9mm all the time. I can afford to practice with my 9mm. If my 9mm doesn't get it done in one shot that's OK.. I'll likely shoot 'em three times anyway. (Based on my IDPA habits) Ok thats likely true with any handgun.

So by this criteria:

45acp = Federal 230 gr Hydrashock, or Remington UMC 230 gr ball ammo.
9mm = Winchester 115 gr Silvertip.
357 = Federal 158 gr Hydrashock

[Oracle]

I use Winchester White Box Personal Protection ammo, USA9JHP, in my carry guns. It works well, has good expansion and penetration, and I don't have to mortgage the house to buy a few boxes of it. Plus, it's available at virtually every Wal-Mart I've ever been to, and it hits to the same POA as Winchester White Box Value Pack FMJ's, my practice ammo. Good points all around, IMHO. Of course, that's just 9mm, because that's the round my carry guns are chambered in.

I'd also recommend taking a look at Ammolab, they have some of the best information available at their site, extremely useful in determining what ammo to carry.

[M2 Carbine]

Mostly I carry Aguila IQ 45 in a Kimber 3 inch barrel.
About 1,400 fps.
117 grain bullet.
The bullet breaks up into 4 pieces with the base still being 45 cal in diameter, causing a lot of damage.

http://www.aguilaammo.com/iq.htm

Nothing I've informally tested comes close to the destruction and apparent power.

I'de like to see the Cor Bon Power Ball made in 32 and 380 for the Kel Tecs

[BluesBear]

Aguila IQ,

Good stuff, kinda like getting shot with 4 .22 Longs all at once.

[M2 Carbine]

"BluesBear
Aguila IQ,
Good stuff, kinda like getting shot with 4 .22 Longs all at once"

More power than 4 22's.

One of our "back yard tests" was filling a 5 gal jug with water and viedo taping the results.

I was going to try to hit it twice if I could.

The slow motion video is something to see.

First shot, I hit the jug in the top half.
The jug jumped into the air about 4 or 5 inches and rolled left and back.
The top half had several splits with water blowing out.

The second shot I hit the jug in the bottom half while it was still in the air.
There was still a lot of water in the bottom half and we got another "explosion".


I guess this isn't a very scientifis test but it sure gives an idea of the power of that round.

I've also tested the 45 against hard targets and as Aguila says the bullet will stay in one piece and penetrate.

[BluesBear]

Here is my Aguila test. (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10690)

I ain't saying it's not good. In fact if I was attacked by a Toyota full of water jugs it would be my very first choice.





I have first hand experience with .38+p 148CWBH on water jugs.
I also have first hand experience with .38+p 148CWBH on human tissue.
There IS quite a difference.

[David Schultz]

Well, in my duty Beretta 9mm the issued load is the 124+P Gold Dot. In my personal Glock 19 9mm I use the same. In my Glock 30 .45 I prefer the 200+P Gold Dot.

I am one of those "Reliable functioning, deep penetrating, accurate-under-stress, don't care what the 'energy' or 'OSS' is, shot placement is more important that the latest whiz bang flavor of the month" kinda guys.

What is my opinion on 'OSS' and 'energy dump' and 'knock down power' and 'stopping power' etc :banghead:

[M2 Carbine]

BluesBear

I guess I'm in trouble since I drive a Toyota pickup.:D


I'm still convinced from the testing I've done with the Aquila and the other +P JHP's, that the Aguila 45 (the 9mm Aguila isn't my first choice) is a good all around carry round.
I don't feel at a disadvantage with Gold Dots or others (I have them all) but I think one of these Aguila rounds in a BG's chest will stop the fight.