Copper fouling


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ole farmerbuck
March 29, 2010, 10:43 PM
I'm getting a bunch of copper fouling in my Savage 22-250. This pic was taken tonight after 25 shots. These were sierra bullets. I'm having the same trouble with Noslers too. All loaded at 38.0gr of H-380. Why am i getting so much fouling so soon?:fire:
http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn88/farmerbuck/copper.jpg

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ole farmerbuck
March 29, 2010, 10:44 PM
That is dark blue (phone pic). I used sweets?7.62.

Beelzy
March 29, 2010, 11:16 PM
Normal IMO, as you are driving a little bullet really fast in that gun.

I would run a patch with Hoppes down the pipe and let it sit overnight.

Sweets is good stuff but I wouldn't soak the bore O/N with it.

Maj Dad
March 29, 2010, 11:31 PM
The 22-250 is a bore-fouling son of a gun. My brother in law must have used a 55 gal drum of copper solvents keeping his clean. Get some of the JB Bore Paste & Bore Shine, polish the crap out of your bore, and then just clean it after you shoot it. For sure don't leave the aggressive cleaners in over night - read the instructions & heed. I use Montana Extreme Copper Killer if I want to get it all out, otherwise, Hoppe's Bench Rest Copper Solvent does very well. The Montana Extreme was developed by 50 caliber (BMG) shooters with serious fouling issues, and believe me, it will get it out. Keep the fumes away from your eyes, and the stuff off your skin, though.

Grumulkin
March 30, 2010, 01:45 AM
If the bore if rusted or pitted, it will foul badly no matter what you do.

First of all, you need to get the bore really clean. I would recommend Wipe Out. Apply it repeatedly and leave it in at least half an hour each time. It's OK to leave it in over night. If the bore is fouled badly, it might take a day or two of work to get it really clean. No brushing is necessary. Once it's really clean, it may not foul as before. If it still fouls badly, the problem is likely a problem with the bore such as throat erosion or pitting. After cleaning, the last coat of stuff I put in the bore is Prolix which seems to cut down of fouling.

I've not found 22-250 barrels to foul any worse than the multiple other barrels I shoot.

918v
March 30, 2010, 02:07 AM
Also, just because your barrel is fouled don't mean it won't shoot. Is your accuracy degrading after 25 shots? Have you worked-up a load yet? Have you shot five 5-shot consecutive groups with it? If you have, try shooting a group or three after your initial 25 shots. See if the accuracy goes south.

ants
March 30, 2010, 02:25 AM
Hey, Buck. By any chance, your cleaning rod isn't brass. Is it?

Wildfire
March 30, 2010, 03:34 AM
Hey :
I see nothing out of line about that..
I did moly my own without the wax and almost eliminated that. But , I still see no harm done ..

If it still shoots accurately it is fine. Some of my rifles like being slightly dirty. I have one in .223 that really wants to be very clean but that one is about it. the rest all shoot very well slightly dirty. :)

Afy
March 30, 2010, 06:02 AM
My Savage LPRV in .22-250 fouls like crazy as well. However I can get the fouling out using KG-12 easily.
Look up KG 12, it makes every other solvent look like water by comparision.

ole farmerbuck
March 30, 2010, 06:27 AM
Hey, Buck. By any chance, your cleaning rod isn't brass. Is it?
Nope, its a fiber rod. As i run more patches through it, they eventually turn white.

ole farmerbuck
March 30, 2010, 06:53 AM
I will try again today if i have time. I do know the other day i benched it and had it grouping good. Shot it about 15 times. Go to the p-dog town and well, i couldnt hit anything to speak of. Bring it back to the bench and they are hitting everywhere but the bullseye. I dont think its the shooter because i had my shooting partner in on this with me. He's a good shot and couldnt hit much either.
I dont leave the sweets in very long, just long enough to run patches back and forth then a jag to finish cleaning.
I have wipe out but when i tried it i didnt think much of it. I did it the way the lady on the phone instructed me.
I know a gunsmith and my neighbor can shoot their 22-250's 100 times and not have the fouling i get. I cleaned my neighbor for him just to see. He had shot at least 60 times and i got NO sign of copper. I also have a Ruger with a heavey barrel and, well, i'd hate to say how little it used to get cleaned and never had trouble with it hitting anything. Guess i'll send it to Savage and have them check it out.

ole farmerbuck
March 30, 2010, 07:14 AM
Soooo, if i replace the barrel with a heavier barrel, what brand should i get? Any suggeations? I'm sure there are many choices and i have never done this but i am thinking about it.

Afy
March 30, 2010, 08:29 AM
Check the scope rings are on tight.
How many rounds do you have through it?

243winxb
March 30, 2010, 08:34 AM
Change powder, get rid of H380

Grumulkin
March 30, 2010, 10:22 AM
The powder you use has nothing to do with the fouling.

I wouldn't go with a heavier barrel unless you wish to do stock work. I would go with whatever barrel Savage uses as they have a good reputation for accuracy. In fact, Savage barrels are some of the easier ones to change so if you have some mechanical aptitude you could probably do it yourself.

_N4Z_
March 30, 2010, 12:58 PM
I will second the motion given about KG-12.

Nothing compares for removing copper, and I have used many different solvents.

Werewolf
March 30, 2010, 05:34 PM
Lots of good suggestion here about how to get rid of the copper fouling but not many on how to prevent it.

What bullet are you using at what diameter (measured by you not what the mfg says). Have you slugged your barrel and measured the land and groove dimensions. If your barrel is on the small side of the nominal spec and the bullets you're using are on the high side of the nominal spec you will experience copper fouling sooner than what would be considered normal. Are you using FMJ or plated bullets? 22-250 can be loaded up to 4000 FPS and that will cause copper fouling quicker than loading them at 3750 or 3800 for example.

Is the fouling thruout the barrel or just at the chamber end?

Discover the root cause of the fouling and you'll know right off how to eliminate or reduce it.

JDGray
March 30, 2010, 07:36 PM
Savages are accurate, but known to have rough barrels. Shillen, PacNor, will sell you a hand lapped match barrel for $300+:) A plastic brush, and jag are needed for using copper solvent, or you'll get false positives on your patch. If your handloading, maybe change it up, or try some good factory ammo.

308win
March 30, 2010, 07:46 PM
Two thoughts: 1) you said you finished with a jag, is it brass (I notice you are using a fiber cleaning rod I believe you said); 2) check your scope - see if it will shoot a square. I had a rifle that I could not get to group until I swaped scopes.

ole farmerbuck
March 30, 2010, 10:08 PM
I'm getting ready to post a couple of pics of targets so hold on, takes this old man a few mins. :)

ole farmerbuck
March 30, 2010, 10:18 PM
Ok, the first pic is from yesterday before we went pdog hunting. Even after shooting that good, i didnt get many with it. These are the 8208 powder not h380. Cleaned the barrel and the second pic shows what it was like tonight. I couldnt get a goup tonight at all so i put on a new scope. Well a used one with about 20 rounds with my AR. So i'm pretty sure it isnt the scope. I even laid the gun on its side and tapped the scope to see if anything changed. Then i got out some win 40 grain factory loads. What a messy target. Like 4 or 5 inch groups.
http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn88/farmerbuck/targettwo.jpg
http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn88/farmerbuck/targetone.jpg

ole farmerbuck
March 30, 2010, 10:21 PM
When we got back from hunting, shooting 12 rounds, i couldnt get a group anywhere as goos as the second pic here. I think i'm sending it to Savage and let them mess with it. I load a lot of rifle shells and yes i know i'm not an expert but all my other guns will hold there own pretty well.

ole farmerbuck
March 30, 2010, 11:24 PM
Change powder, get rid of H380
I really doubt that will change anything. Been using it for many years with great results. The 8208 was doing good too but look at the pics now.

ole farmerbuck
March 30, 2010, 11:27 PM
Two thoughts: 1) you said you finished with a jag, is it brass (I notice you are using a fiber cleaning rod I believe you said); 2) check your scope - see if it will shoot a square. I had a rifle that I could not get to group until I swaped scopes.
Changed scopes. Same thing. hmm

ole farmerbuck
March 30, 2010, 11:28 PM
My Savage LPRV in .22-250 fouls like crazy as well. However I can get the fouling out using KG-12 easily.
Look up KG 12, it makes every other solvent look like water by comparision.
How many shots before you loose accuracy?

Floppy_D
March 30, 2010, 11:35 PM
Is this a case of "barrel heating up and throwing shots?" Maybe a bedding issue? I know how fast the action gets in p-dog town... just a thought. Good luck, happy hunting.

ole farmerbuck
March 30, 2010, 11:47 PM
Not a chance of it getting hot yesterday. Too few shots and a loooong time between.

Afy
March 31, 2010, 04:01 AM
How many shots before you loose accuracy?


I normally clean every 20 or so, since I normally shoot groups and am paranoid about carbon. At the range it is just a couple of patches with lighter fluid to remove carbon.
My normal loads are a 55gr SMK with 36.5 grains of N150 or a 52 grain SMK with 38 grains of Varget.
I have gone 50+ rounds without crossing 1 inch groups at 100 meters. With the normal cleaning I tend to stay under .75 inches.

243winxb
March 31, 2010, 07:21 AM
Carbon fouling- On older barrels this can build up just past the chamber. I got lazy brushing and formed a carbon ring that you could feel when running a cleaning patch thru it. You might try removing the carbon. http://www.benchrest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65912&highlight=carbon+fouling

ole farmerbuck
March 31, 2010, 07:29 AM
I really dont know how anything at all can be in this thing! I have cleaned it spotless. I've looked in the barrel and see nothing unusual. Should i be able to see a ring?

243winxb
March 31, 2010, 07:33 AM
Should i be able to see a ring? I could not see mine with the naked eye. sure could feel it with the cleaning patch.

ole farmerbuck
March 31, 2010, 07:37 AM
Oh, this barrel is smoother than a spanked babys butt. Really, it is clean. Well not after shooting it lastnight but i told tha lady at Savage that before i send it back if i do, i will shoot it 20 or so times so they can see the fouling. Maybe i should send them some sweets 7.62 also. They'll flip when they see what comes out!

ole farmerbuck
March 31, 2010, 01:41 PM
I called Savage today. UPS should be picking it up tomorrow. Found sales ticket and i bought it 8/9/09. Hopefully all will be ok. Time to get the heavy barrel Ruger out. I know its a pdog getter.

Fatelvis
March 31, 2010, 05:49 PM
I've had real good luck with Tubb's "Final Finish" firelapping kits. I used it on a bad fouling 7mm BR pistol and fairly rough bored 30-30 Marlin. Now they both shoot cast bullets beautifully, foul very little, and clean easier. Just another option before swapping barrels.

ole farmerbuck
March 31, 2010, 05:51 PM
I thought about that but decided to send it back first. I have the Ruger out and the Nikon mounted, cases primed and powder ready to go!

ole farmerbuck
March 31, 2010, 09:19 PM
Well i dont think its the scope or reloads or me. This is from the Ruger tonight using the same loads and scope. Very small amount of blue on the patch after 30 shots. I havent shot the Ruger much but i bought it back in about 1986. Not a bad shooting gun for not really working up a load for it. The Savage will hopefully come back ready for a challenge! 5 shots

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn88/farmerbuck/rugershots.jpg

Wildfire
April 4, 2010, 02:32 AM
Hey :
I have been reading in here . Something came loose somehwere. Action ?
Something happened.
I hear you loud and clear.. the rounds seem to work.The scope seems fine too. I had a cracked stock one time that took forever to find.

Good Luck and happy dog whackin.:cool:

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