Are militias the new boogie man?


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NWCP
March 29, 2010, 10:49 PM
Every time Washington DC goes nuts it seems as though all the fringe groups start coming out of the woodwork. I don't know about anyone here but until today I had never heard of a militia group called the Hutaree. Now all of the sudden 9 to 12 people calling themselves Christians are a national security threat and you know that means Napolitano and company will be scrutinizing any organization identifying itself as a militia. The same thing happened when that whack job Reno was Attorney General under Clinton. When government gets scary all the fringe groups rise to the top of the political swamp. It's a shame really, because now more than ever is when we need to be level headed, organized and working within the system. This administration will use militias to take the public eye off of their own underhanded shenanigans. Janet Napolitano is licking her chops over this opportunity and you can bet her boss is right there with her.

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cyclopsshooter
March 29, 2010, 11:22 PM
have you seen the photos of these nut jobs? profiling works

Wildfire
March 29, 2010, 11:28 PM
Hey there ;
Just this week it was reported that the FBI "Raided" suspected members in MI, IN, and ILL.
Made arrest on OPPPPS Gun charges. Imagine that..

Some may see it as you say "A shame" then again some do not...

I for one did not hear of any major Militia movements stiring up anything, yet the raids started.
The facts still remain the facts. After Waco Tx. The only thing they found was burned bodies and Bibles. Many babies included.. So what gave any barnch of our government the right to Judge, sentence and exicute those people. ???????

Our government Demonized that group of people to the point everyone wondered. They used the news media to back them up..
They even came up with eye witnesses.. ??????? I just have to wonder if those eye witnesses really expected to see those folks burned alive..

They shot Randy Weavers wife dead while holding a baby Not a gun.
Was she some sort of threat ????
We also more recently had a major storm that hit our nation and what we found again was our government flexing their mussles on American citizens again. They took privately owned guns out of the hands of those that owned them. Again a show of power over the people.

Another fact that many seem to forget was that during the Waco ordeal , NO one even thought about helping those folks. WHY ?????

Had a Militia with several hundred men all armed showed up I just bet things would have turned out different..

The other major factor in that ordeal was the tactics used on our people.
They used forms of torment on those folks that we can not even use on know terrorist...

Then they used a military tank and burned them .....

My self I see that as a system that has failed and at that point there is no need for useing that system anymore.

To say we need to stay within and work within the SYSTEM has not gotten any of us very far yet...
Fact is the SYSTEM is and has failed all of us. Why ? An improper ballance of power.

The NRA and many of the conservative talk show folks that seem to lead certain mind sets now days claim the American people will NEVER have to use force again... While I am a Patron Member of the NRA I must differ with them on that issue.
When using the word "force" many would love to jump to conclusions..
That is when feble minds start assuming things. Force means , to hold back , ward off , keep at bay.
Our government needs to be held back , warded off and held at bay..
I for one don't see anything wrong with that . That is also what our constution is for . To give us certain rights and the power to keep our government in it's place..... No more no less.

And the best I can tell no where in our constution did it tell us that it should take years for any of this to happen.

So before we start in tearing down the militias we should all maybe at the least wonder how, when , and where did these guys get there balls..

Atleast they have some. :fire:

Cyborg
March 29, 2010, 11:37 PM
What they will (doubtless inadvertently) use militias for is to set off a civil war. All it will take to set off a full scale rebellion is another Waco or Ruby Ridge.

The Hutaree are total nut jobs. Racist bas****s with no redeeming values at all. But if the Feds kill one of them in a remake of Ruby Ridge or Waco, I am convinced that the militias WILL respond.

I do not want a civil war. I have 6 grandchildren (3 from my son and 3 step via my daughter) and a 7th (my daughter's 1st) on the way. I do not desire for them to grow up in conditions such as those depicted in "Mad Max" and "the Postman". We dodged the bullet Saturday night/ Sunday morning. Unfortunately I just (22:30 CDT) read that there is still an ongoing (at least as of some time this evening 3/29/10) "standoff". If that "standoff" turns into a fire fight "Katie bar the door!".

All of you of the praying kind best get some "cross action" (as Hooker called it in the book, "M*A*S*H") going ASAP! It's a tinder box out there.

Wildfire
March 29, 2010, 11:53 PM
Hey :
No one in their right mind would "want " a war here .
But way too many are jumping to a judgement call on these groups and peopel way before the facts are out. the only so called facts that are out are what our untrustworthy government has told us.

Randy Weavers wife and Randy himself were found inocent.. Yet that cop went free.
They did not take up arms against those cops. The just took bullets.

Anyone that simply makes a conclusion from what our news media deems as truth needs to sit back and rethink things ...
I am not taking sides in this case.. But I am saying no one else should yet either.

It is very likely that our own FBI instigated this to start with.. OH YES THEY WOULD. They have in the past and they will in the future.
This is nothing new.

By the way I have 5 grand children and want no harm for them either.
But I certainly don't want what we are about to live through.

bigalexe
March 29, 2010, 11:56 PM
It is important to remember that the firearms charges for which the Hutaree Militia is being charged are not the focus of the investigation and raids but merely extras added onto other more serious charges. In particular this group was planning to assassinate a LEO and then attack the funeral in hopes of killing more LEO's.

From a news story out of Detroit:
All nine have been charged with seditious conspiracy, attempt to use weapons of mass destruction and two counts of possession of a firearm in relation to a crime of violence.

The WMD charge most likely relates to pipe bombs the group is connected with manufacturing and distributing which are illegal destructive devices, seditious conspiracy can reasonably be assumed to refer to the plot to kill an LEO ultimately setting the stage to kill more and in a public manner. Quite simply that is terrorism.

So please let us remember that the "Firearms Charge" in this instance is like "Wearing Body Armor While Committing a Felony." Although unfortunately for us many people will see "Militia" and "Gun Charges" and be sending checks off to Brady because of it.

I think the best action the gun community can take at this time is to continue to educate the public about firearms, and why we should be able to own and use them freely.

Ragnar Danneskjold
March 30, 2010, 12:06 AM
I refuse to take any so called militia or fighting force seriously if they do not require physical fitness to be a member. For some reason, they all have their share of 290lb guys in surplus camo, dip in their gums, and a confederate flag sticker on their trucks.

Stop being the stereotype. And btw, not being able to even jog 200 meters is going to get you killed in the first few hours if any of these "militias" are actually needed.

Kentucky_Rifleman
March 30, 2010, 12:13 AM
Little will be achieved through assuming a confrontational attitude or deliberately antagonizing groups that hold other political views. Our goal of affirming and perpetuating all our rights under the Bill of Rights will be better served by calm, deliberate patience.:cool:

Consider how many of us "tune out" political radicals. I ignore the radicals that occupy both ends of the spectrum, as I suspect many people do. When we develop the soapbox voice and stance, we are guilty of the same condescending, arrogant "I know what America wants more than you do" stance we find so distasteful in our political opposites.

Please don't mistake my soft-spoken approach for apathy; you'll find fewer Americans more ardent about our rights and liberties than I am. It's just that I've come to understand that head-on blustering confrontation makes me sound like as big an ass as those with whom I'm arguing.

It's far more productive to keep calm and appeal to reason. Even those we normally consider unreasonable may be more rational than we think.

The other thing to consider when engaging in political discussion with other Americans is that we tend to be an obstinate bunch. Push most Americans and they'll push right back - and they mean to push harder. Right it off to the incredible diversity of our culture or something toxic in the water, but Americans love to fight.

If you really want to win, always take the proverbial "High Road." Be polite, be courteous, listen to the other side with an open mind. If you still believe you're right, state your case in a polite, courteous manner. We lose out in too many political debates because of our hot-headedness rather than our being wrong.

Now, about the militias. I firmly support people's right to congregate. I think citizens need to be more proactive in our government, and militias are one way of meeting those duties of a good citizen. That said, when citizen militias show up at political rallies, politicians not sympathetic to our cause will use the opportunity to demonize us as gun-owners. We need to do everything we can to avoid giving them these opportunities. Instead of just coming out to political events, many militias would be better served to strengthen ties to the communities they represent - organize and help worthwhile charities and so on.

KR

Tommygunn
March 30, 2010, 12:20 AM
Are militias the new boogie man?

Well, they're "THE" boogie man. They have been for a couple of decades now -- ever since Clinton.

jmortimer
March 30, 2010, 12:28 AM
Janet Reno II previously declared war on the "right wing" long ago. If you are a white male who is pro-life and likes guns and the Second Amendment then she said you are the real terrorists. But if they targeted police they crossed the line. I'm waiting for all the facts but after Ruby Ridge and Waco I'll never trust liberal/socialist administrations.
P.S. Per Ragnar's comment below - let the record reflect I never trusted liberal/socialist administraions - Read "Liberal Facism" by Jonathan Goldberg and you will know why.

Kentucky_Rifleman
March 30, 2010, 12:30 AM
Randy Weavers wife and Randy himself were found inocent.. Yet that cop went free.
They did not take up arms against those cops. The just took bullets.

Okay, first, Randy Weaver admitted that he had cut a shotgun barrel shorter than NFA standards for a man who turned out to be an undercover fed. He was entrapped - the agent had to repeatedly pressure Weaver to do it, but at the end of the day Randy Weaver deliberately broke the law. Secondly, Weaver turned up on the federal radar because of his affiliation with the Aryan Nations Church, a known racist group with a long record of criminal activity, including racially-motivated crimes.

Now, I don't agree with how the agencies involved handled the Ruby Ridge standoff. They made a lot of mistakes, including killing Weaver's wife, BUT what would have happened if Randy Weaver had appeared in court as ordered? He might have been railroaded or he might have gotten a fair trial. I must believe in at least the possibility of the latter or lose all faith - not just in our government, but in us as a nation.

I'm not going to judge the individuals in this current mess. That's a job for a jury of their peers. Let's hope they get the opportunity to face that jury.

KR

Ragnar Danneskjold
March 30, 2010, 12:30 AM
I'm waiting for all the facts but after Ruby Ridge and Waco I'll never trust liberal/socialist administrations.

You trusted them before?


/Not saying you did, just making a quip.

Kentucky_Rifleman
March 30, 2010, 12:40 AM
What they will (doubtless inadvertently) use militias for is to set off a civil war. All it will take to set off a full scale rebellion is another Waco or Ruby Ridge.

Really? Is this the best we as a movement have to offer? I prefer to think that our rebellion will take the form of political reform in November. Saying that "God-fearing, gun-loving Americans will rise up against this regime" is just the kind of dogma that alienates so many fence-sitters on the second amendment.

Our rhetoric often offers only two options - A: Side with the reasonable-sounding anti-gun crowd, or option B: Fall in with the whack-jobs saying that the new revolution is 5 bloody minutes away.

Why not just say that we all hope this ends with no lives lost, so that a jury of citizens may judge those accused?

That's what I'm hoping for. And if calamity befalls anyone in harm's way tonight, it will be a loss for us all, the loss of a rare opportunity to get at the truth.

KR

NWCP
March 30, 2010, 01:12 AM
The thing that worries me is what Obama stated when he was a candidate. He wants a National Police Force as large and as well equipped as our military. Those were his words. It's incidents like the Hutaree that can, if frequent enough, trigger the political move to create an atmosphere justifying the need for a national police force that would answer to Napolitano and Obama. The day that happens, if it happens, things could get ugly in a hurry.

Wildfire
March 30, 2010, 01:59 AM
Hey :
Now I see more rational thinking here. We are not their judges. Just because they belonged to a militia has nothing to do with what they did.
If they really did it..

So far that is what we are told.
None of us were there. At least I don't think we were. Anyway.

The statement has been made. "National police force. " How about , in the making already.

Again my main point {in part of this was that } even the NRA has said that we as Americans would NEVER have to take up arms against our own government ... Do any of you really beleive that ???

Socialism is a nicey nicey form of communism and we are fast becoming a socialist land. Our government is way past the point of corruption even to the point we don't know any longer what to call it.

So the question remains , Do we sit back and let our government get so big and powerful that they rule every aspect of our lives ?

There is so much secrecy in what goes on even in ordeals like what has happened with the arrest that were made. How are we to ever really know what really happened. What I see happening is just what they would like to happen. If they can create division amoung even gun owners they can defeat us all.

It still amaze's me as to how many fall for every detail the news media slams out. :banghead:

Kentucky_Rifleman
March 30, 2010, 02:17 AM
Again my main point {in part of this was that } even the NRA has said that we as Americans would NEVER have to take up arms against our own government ... Do any of you really beleive that ???

Do I believe that we'll NEVER need to take up arms against our government? No. It's a hypothetical situation and I'm loathe to use the terms "never" or "always."

I don't think we're anywhere near the necessity of an armed revolt, and I seriously doubt that I'll see such a necessity in my lifetime.

I disagree with some of the decisions our current leadership has made.

I disagreed with some of the decisions our last administration made.

I'll do what any reasonable American should do in November - I'll look over the candidates, look at their rhetorics AND their records, and vote for the candidate I think will best reflect my values, beliefs, desires, and vision for my country. I'll state now for the record that I WILL NOT VOTE FOR ANY CANDIDATE BASED ON PARTY AFFILIATION. I want to see a more balanced senate and house, and that will figure into my vote, but I will ultimately vote for whichever candidate I think is more rational.

No one has created any division amongst gun-owners / second amendment advocates unless we create it ourselves.

This forum is devoted to SA issues, and I'm sure that 99.99% of us reading and posting here will agree that we want our SA rights protected and preserved. That's probably the only issue we all agree on. That's the joy of America. :)

KR

Voimakas
March 30, 2010, 02:24 AM
+1 Kentucky_Rifleman.

There are some liberal lefty RKBAers on here. While we might not agree on the rest of the political spectrum, I'd think most (if not all of us) would agree that 2A is important, that it guarantees our individual right to keep and bear arms, and that gun control is bad (unless you mean using two hands.)

wvshootist
March 30, 2010, 02:33 AM
The day the citizens take up arms against the US government will be the same day recorded in the history books that the US became no more. It would not take long for 50 different sides to be drawn up and fragile alliances fighting each other for control. All one has to do is look at the Soviet Empire and the mess that was created when it fell. I see similar events unfolding here should a civil war break out.

And as for the so called nut job militia people? They sound like they are disenfranchised and bitter clinging to religion and guns. Sound familiar?

ccsniper
March 30, 2010, 02:46 AM
whoo yeah in before the lock!!!

Voimakas
March 30, 2010, 02:49 AM
On a side note: they aren't new. They seem to pop up every time a Dem is in power (See: Clinton.)

Kentucky_Rifleman
March 30, 2010, 03:09 AM
whoo yeah in before the lock!!!

I'm not sure that this discussion will get locked. The political discussion has been genial and broad in scope (no one has started slinging mud at any individual or party, and no one has gotten hostile or ill-tempered - we're playing nice).

Who knows though, there are some threads that get locked and I'm at something of a loss as to why, while others which seem much more heated are let go. It's all up to the discretion of our gracious hosts. :)

KR

Wildfire
March 30, 2010, 03:18 AM
Hey :
Nothing wrong was said here. I asked a simple question to get opinions.
I got some and that is what I wanted.
I am by no means trying to push for anything more than opinions.

I would hardly call myself "left" ..
While I did state that I do not trust our leaders and do not beleive that simply voting this nov. will remove decades of corruption I do still beleive we have the best place on this planet .

You don't just vote away corruption and imorality.
I also do not beleive that any sort of civil uprising would result in 50 states against each other. In Russia those so called states were "Under the gun"
and that was how they were ruled. Their people revolted to make an attempt to get out from under that gun. They had no rights to save.

While I know I do not have the answer to any of this I do beleive that certain groups in this country need to be heard . Gun owners being on the top of my list.
I am an over the road trucker too. An owner Operator . The new laws coming out of our new leadership are flat out crazy.

The way we will be heard is when a loaf of bread cost you $10.00......
many of the new laws covering the trucking industry are unconstitutional.
And I am sure there will many up coming court battles because of it.

The reasons are very simular in both cases. No one gets too shook up about loosing their guns yet. And no one is worried about paying $10.00 for a loaf of bread YET !:uhoh:

Kentucky_Rifleman
March 30, 2010, 03:35 AM
And no one is worried about paying $10.00 for a loaf of bread YET !

You're right; I'm not worried about $10.00 bread YET. I'm probably not going to worry too much about 10.00 bread until it costs me more than $2.00 or $3.00. I have more immediate things to worry about today.

As I've said before, one of the joys of being an American and having our form of government is that we can repeal or modify any law that has disastrous consequences. While Americans can disagree about everything else, we all like having more money in our pockets at the end of the month. Some experts were predicting the Cap and Trade legislation would triple most families' electric bills. Had that bill passed and that prediction been accurate, then the bill would have been repealed.

So it goes with any potential legislation, including GC issues. I'm not going to worry about it right now, because as far as I know there isn't any pending passage, and because I pay the NRA to worry about it for me. :)

KR

Mp7
March 30, 2010, 04:25 AM
Kentucky Rifleman +2.

Tin Foil hats suck. Wether they are made of left or right wing
tin foil is no difference. :)


The BIG conspiracy that steers straight for USArmageddon
is as irrational and underinformed an idea as the anti-gunners
who cry about RKBA and "That shoulder thing that goes up!"

Loyalist Dave
March 30, 2010, 05:07 AM
It seems to me that what caused the most problems in Government's view, was the fact that the word got out as to what was in the healthcare bills. The folks on Capitol Hill think the cause of all of that was Talk Radio, and began to complain of how these radio hosts incite violence by their rhetoric. Then came the bogus claims of coffins on front lawns, etc etc, followed by this raid (convenient, no?) which appears to me to be setting the groundwork for renewal of the fairness doctrine, but with a twist, outlawing hatespeach. So instead of requiring equal airtime, they will push (just watch and see) to be able to simply remove shows from the FCC regulated airwaves, and before folks shout "no they wont due to the 1st Amendment" know tht broadcasting is a different animal than speech or print, in the eyes of the law and the SC folks. My guess is they will try to go further, and claim that since internet service is transmitted to wireless modems, it too comes under "broadcasting", as does satellite radio, and thus seek to eliminate the folks that they think did them the most damage. They've tried to link "violence" with talk radio before and talked about the fairness doctrine. Stay tuned, at least while you can.

LD

Art Eatman
March 30, 2010, 05:48 AM
Totally OT.

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