1st of several casualties of California's new law


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AmmoSphere
March 31, 2010, 07:00 PM
Hey Guys,

I started a profitable online ammunition business about a year ago and sometime in November a new California strangulation law passed "AB962". This garbage bill says that you can't sell ammunition online in the golden state and that you need to do all ammo sales face to face, not only this you must finger print your customers!!!! As a result I need to sell a business I was/am making money with and that I never had the intention of selling!!!:mad:#$#@!~!!

This is ridiculous!!!:confused: Bad guys are going to get tools to do evil no matter what the law says. The only thing this law does is punish people who are PRO 2A. Not to mention the state is on the brink of bankruptcy they will be kissing all of that tax revenue from the ammunition industry goodbye to.

I was wondering if I could muster some support from the m4 community and ask that you politely call Arnie and ask him to repeal "AB962". It will only eat up 60 seconds of your time to call and voice your opinion:

Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger
State Capitol Building
Sacramento, CA 95814
Phone: 916-445-2841 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting**************916-445-2841******end_of_the_skype_highlighting
Fax: 916-558-3160

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earlthegoat2
March 31, 2010, 07:03 PM
You should sue the govt to get back any lost income.

I dont know the process but I know people have succeeded at this in the past. There is nothing constitutional about running a legitimate business and then have an unconstitutional and arbitrary law make you a criminal overnight.

AmmoSphere
March 31, 2010, 07:05 PM
They are going to make it a misdemeanor!!! Where you can sell ammo everywhere else in the United States except here come Feb 2011!!!

If there was a class action suit, I would be tempted to sign on. I just don't have the fund to do it by myself.

earlthegoat2
March 31, 2010, 07:16 PM
I just don't have the fund to do it by myself.

That is what usually gets people. Good luck and just try to imagine all the gun companies who would be out of business if they banned/restricted all guns. There are reasons the NRA exists. They do more than just protect the intrests of citizens. Businesses give more money to them every year than do individuals combined.

Nicodemus38
March 31, 2010, 10:43 PM
does the law prohibit an internet company run from california, that sells all over the us prohibit the internet company from still selling online to other states?

if so the ACLU should get involved as the law can be seen as an illegal injunction against internet trade as well as an illegal interferement with interstate commerce.

also, the requirement to finger print is a big herring to. the national standard for ammo sales is a visual check of the drivers liscence to prove age and identity of the user, not take a fingerprint.
at same time the fingerprint requirement can be seen as an illegal database of gunowners through defacto "if they buy ammo, they most likely have a gun to use it with" and right now the atf doesnt have any requirement for fingerprints, so that should help a lawsuit on the law.
im not a lawyer though, just a somewhat smart person.

Yo Mama
March 31, 2010, 11:13 PM
Move! Let your money do the talking. Let your rep know that you're leaving.

You already have the business. You have it on the internet. You don't need to be based out of CA. Personally I also think you do alot of good for the gun community, and I'd rather have you still in business.

God knows you'll get a better tax break somewhere else.

jeepguy
April 1, 2010, 09:00 PM
can you live in cali & run the business from another state, or just move to another state?

AmmoSphere
April 2, 2010, 02:40 AM
I'm not sure if that would be legal. It seems to me to fall in some grey area.

CHEVELLE427
April 2, 2010, 09:28 AM
sorry to say but:uhoh:

move to a non commie state.:(:barf:

ILikeLead
April 2, 2010, 11:51 AM
It never ceases to amaze me the the senseless Crap that comes out of California. This law is a perfect example. AND just yesterday I was taking the cardboard off of a new WATER HOSE I bought and saw a notice, "This package not labeled for sale in California"

WHAT? Can't sell this water hose in Ca because it's not packaged right! Perfectly acceptable to the other states' citizens, but not those Californians.

I agree with Chevelle. Move and take your business elsewhere.

Good Luck.

Yo Mama
April 2, 2010, 12:17 PM
^ The best was when I was visiting in laws in CA, their car had a big warning label saying: This vehicle has flamible fuel! Caution.

Really! I thought they ran on air. :banghead:

Gouranga
April 2, 2010, 12:39 PM
Wait...fingerprint to buy ammo!? That is beyond retarded. I would never do it. It was worse enough I had to do that for my CCW.

Black Toe Knives
April 2, 2010, 01:26 PM
If it is making money. Just move to Nevada. Second option is to Drop ship from another state. If I love where I was living. I would do the drop shipping.

AmmoSphere
April 4, 2010, 04:14 PM
I need to talk to a lawyer to see if that would be legal, it seems to me that falls into some gray area.

JR47
April 4, 2010, 04:37 PM
I believe that the intent of the California Law was to stop Internet Sales from coming into California, not the opposite. While you may not SELL IN California, the law shouldn't prevent sales outside of the state.

Perhaps moving is going to be the ONLY way to actually do something. California will only change when the talking heads who run the place begin to see their sources of revenue fleeing the state. You pay personal taxes, need a business license, property taxes, sales taxes, and on and on. With the increasing number of job losses, and business relocations, there will be ever fewer to pay for the idiotic programs put in place.

230therapy
April 4, 2010, 04:51 PM
Nevada is calling your name!

Just run the biz from there since you don't have a storefront anyway.

Quiet
April 4, 2010, 05:17 PM
AB962 does not prohibit the internet/mail order sale of rifle and shotgun ammunition.

So, stop selling handgun ammo and just sell rifle & shotgun ammo or move to another state?

Too many taxes and regulations are the reason why business are leaving CA.

Quiet
April 4, 2010, 05:35 PM
Penal Code 12060
As used in this article, the following terms apply:
(a) "Department" means the Department of Justice.
(b) "Handgun ammunition" means handgun ammunition as defined in ubdivision (a) of Section 12323, but excluding ammunition designed and intended to be used in an "antique firearm" as defined in Section 921(a)(16) of Title 18 of the United States Code. Handgun ammunition does not include blanks.
(c) "Handgun ammunition vendor" or "vendor" means any person, firm, corporation, dealer, or any other business enterprise that is engaged in the retail sale of any handgun ammunition, or that holds itself out as engaged in the business of selling any handgun ammunition.

Penal code 12061
(a) A vendor shall comply with all of the following conditions, requirements and prohibitions:
(1) A vendor shall not permit any employee who the vendor knows or reasonably should know is a person described in Section 12021 or 12021.1 of this code or Section 8100 or 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions Code to handle, sell, or deliver handgun ammunition in the course and scope of his or her employment.
(2) A vendor shall not sell or otherwise transfer ownership of, offer for sale or otherwise offer to transfer ownership of, or display for sale or display for transfer of ownership of any handgun ammunition in a manner that allows that ammunition to be accessible to a purchaser or transferee without the assistance of the vendor or employee thereof.
(3) Commencing February 1, 2011, a vendor shall not sell or otherwise transfer ownership of any handgun ammunition without, at the time of delivery, legibly recording the following information:
(A) The date of the sale or other transaction.
(B) The purchaser's or transferee's driver's license or other identification number and the state in which it was issued.
(C) The brand, type, and amount of ammunition sold or otherwise transferred.
(D) The purchaser's or transferee's signature.
(E) The name of the salesperson who processed the sale or other transaction.
(F) The right thumbprint of the purchaser or transferee on the above form.
(G) The purchaser's or transferee's full residential address and telephone number.
(H) The purchaser's or transferee's date of birth.
(4) Commencing February 1, 2011, the records required by this section shall be maintained on the premises of the vendor for a period of not less than five years from the date of the recorded transfer.
(5) Commencing February 1, 2011, the records referred to in paragraph (3) shall be subject to inspection at any time during normal business hours by any peace officer employed by a sheriff, city police department, or district attorney as provided in subdivision (a) of Section 830.1, or employed by the department as provided in subdivision (b) of Section 830.1, provided the officer is conducting an investigation where access to those records is or may be relevant to that investigation, is seeking information about persons prohibited from owning a firearm or ammunition, or is engaged in ensuring compliance with the Dangerous Weapons Control Law (Chapter 1 (commencing with Section 12000) of Title 2 of Part 4), or any other laws pertaining to firearms or ammunition. The records shall also be subject to inspection at any time during normal business hours by any other employee of the department, provided that employee is conducting an investigation where access to those records is or may be relevant to that investigation, is seeking information about persons prohibited from owning a firearm or ammunition, or is engaged in ensuring compliance with the Dangerous Weapons Control Law (Chapter 1 (commencing with Section 12000) of Title 2 of Part 4), or any other laws pertaining to firearms or ammunition.
(6) Commencing February 1, 2011, the vendor shall not knowingly make a false entry in, fail to make a required entry in, fail to obtain the required thumbprint, or otherwise fail to maintain in the required manner records prepared in accordance with paragraph (2). If the right thumbprint is not available, then the vendor shall have the purchaser or transferee use his or her left thumb, or any available finger, and shall so indicate on the form. If the purchaser or transferee is physically unable to provide a thumbprint or fingerprint, the vendor shall so indicate on the form.
(7) Commencing February 1, 2011, no vendor shall refuse to permit a person authorized under paragraph (5) to examine any record prepared in accordance with this section during any inspection conducted pursuant to this section, or refuse to permit the use of any record or information by those persons.
(b) Paragraph (3) of subdivision (a) shall not apply to or affect sales or other transfers of ownership of handgun ammunition by handgun ammunition vendors to any of the following, if properly identified:
(1) A person licensed pursuant to Section 12071.
(2) A handgun ammunition vendor.
(3) A person who is on the centralized list maintained by the department pursuant to Section 12083.
(4) A target facility which holds a business or regulatory license.
(5) Gunsmiths.
(6) Wholesalers.
(7) Manufacturers or importers of firearms licensed pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code, and the regulations issued pursuant thereto.
(8) Sales or other transfers of ownership made to authorized law enforcement representatives of cities, counties, cities and counties, or state or federal governments for exclusive use by those government agencies if, prior to the delivery, transfer, or sale of handgun ammunition, written authorization from the head of the agency authorizing the transaction is presented to the person from whom the purchase, delivery, or transfer is being made. Proper written authorization is defined as verifiable written certification from the head of the agency by which the purchaser, transferee, or person otherwise acquiring ownership is employed, identifying the employee as an individual authorized to conduct the transaction, and
authorizing the transaction for the exclusive use of the agency by which he or she is employed.
(c)(1) A violation of paragraph (3), (4), (6), or (7) of subdivision (a) is a misdemeanor.
(2) The provisions of this subdivision are cumulative, and shall not be construed as restricting the application of any other law. However, an act or omission punishable in different ways by different provisions of law shall not be punished under more than one provision.

Penal Code 12316
(a) (1) Any person, corporation, or dealer who does any of the following shall be punished by imprisonment in a county jail for a term not to exceed six months, or by a fine not to exceed one thousand dollars ($1,000), or by both the imprisonment and fine:
(A) Sells any ammunition or reloaded ammunition to a person under 18 years of age.
(B) Sells any ammunition or reloaded ammunition designed and intended for use in a handgun to a person under 21 years of age. As used in this subparagraph, "ammunition" means handgun ammunition as defined in subdivision (a) of Section 12323. Where ammunition or reloaded ammunition may be used in both a rifle and a handgun, it may be sold to a person who is at least 18 years of age, but less than 21 years of age, if the vendor reasonably believes that the ammunition is being acquired for use in a rifle and not a handgun.
(C) Supplies, delivers, or gives possession of any ammunition to any minor who he or she knows, or using reasonable care should know, is prohibited from possessing that ammunition at that time pursuant to Section 12101.
(2) Proof that a person, corporation, or dealer, or his or her agent or employee, demanded, was shown, and acted in reasonable reliance upon, bona fide evidence of majority and identity shall be a defense to any criminal prosecution under this subdivision. As used in this subdivision, "bona fide evidence of majority and identity" means a document issued by a federal, state, county, or municipal government, or subdivision or agency thereof, including, but not limited to, a motor vehicle operator's license, California state identification card, identification card issued to a member of the Armed Forces, or other form of identification that bears the name, date of birth, description, and picture of the person.
(b)(1) No person prohibited from owning or possessing a firearm under Section 12021 or 12021.1 of this code or Section 8100 or 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions Code shall own, possess, or have under his or her custody or control, any ammunition or reloaded ammunition.
(2) For purposes of this subdivision, "ammunition" shall include, but not be limited to, any bullet, cartridge, magazine, clip, speed loader, autoloader, or projectile capable of being fired from a firearm with a deadly Consequence. "Ammunition" does not include blanks.
(3) A violation of paragraph (1) of this subdivision is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not to exceed one year or in the state prison, by a fine not to exceed one thousand dollars ($1,000), or by both the fine and imprisonment.
(4) A person who is not prohibited by paragraph (1) from owning, possessing, or having under his or her custody or control, any ammunition or reloaded ammunition, but who is enjoined from engaging in activity pursuant to an injunction issued pursuant to Section 3479 of the Civil Code against that person as a member of a criminal street gang, as defined in Section 186.22, may not own, possess, or have under his or her custody or control, any ammunition or reloaded ammunition.
(5) A violation of paragraph (4) of this subdivision is a misdemeanor.
(c) Unless it is with the written permission of the school district superintendent, his or her designee, or equivalent school authority, no person shall carry ammunition or reloaded ammunition onto school grounds, except sworn law enforcement officers acting within the scope of their duties or persons exempted under subparagraph (A) of paragraph (1) of subdivision (a) of Section 12027. This subdivision shall not apply to a duly appointed peace
officer as defined in Chapter 4.5 (commencing with Section 830) of Title 3 of Part 2, a full-time paid peace officer of another state or the federal government who is carrying out official duties while in California, any person summoned by any of these officers to assist in making an arrest or preserving the peace while he or she is actually engaged in assisting the officer, a member of the military forces of this state or of the United States who is engaged in the performance of his or her duties, a person holding a valid license to carry the firearm pursuant to Article 3 (commencing with Section 12050) of Chapter 1 of Title 2 of Part 4, or an armored vehicle guard, who is
engaged in the performance of his or her duties, as defined in subdivision (e) of Section 7521 of the Business and Professions Code.
A violation of this subdivision is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail for a term not to exceed six months, a fine not to exceed one thousand dollars ($1,000), or both the imprisonment and fine.
(d)(1) A violation of paragraph (1) or (4) of subdivision (b) is justifiable where all of the following conditions are met:
(A) The person found the ammunition or reloaded ammunition or took the ammunition or reloaded ammunition from a person who was committing a crime against him or her.
(B) The person possessed the ammunition or reloaded ammunition no longer than was necessary to deliver or transport the ammunition or reloaded ammunition to a law enforcement agency for that agency's disposition according to law.
(C) The person is prohibited from possessing any ammunition or reloaded ammunition solely because that person is prohibited from owning or possessing a firearm only by virtue of Section 12021 or ammunition or reloaded ammunition because of paragraph (4) of subdivision (b).
(2) Upon the trial for violating paragraph (1) or (4) of subdivision (b), the trier of fact shall determine whether the defendant is subject to the exemption created by this subdivision.
(3) The defendant has the burden of proving by a preponderance of the evidence that he or she is subject to the exemption provided by this subdivision.

Penal Code 12317
(a) Any person, corporation, or firm who supplies, delivers, sells, or gives possession or control of, any ammunition to any person who he or she knows or using reasonable care should know is prohibited from owning, possessing, or having under his or her custody or control, any ammunition or reloaded ammunition pursuant to paragraph (1) or (4) of subdivision (b) of Section 12316, is guilty of a misdemeanor, punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year, or a fine not exceeding one thousand dollars ($1,000), or by both that fine and imprisonment.
(b) The provisions of this section are cumulative and shall not be construed as restricting the application of any other law. However, an act or omission punishable in different ways by this section and another provision of law shall not be punished under more than one provision.
(c) For purposes of this section, "ammunition" shall include, but not be limited to, any bullet, cartridge, magazine, clip, speed loader, autoloader, or projectile capable of being fired from a firearm with deadly consequence. "Ammunition" does not include blanks.

Penal Code 12318
(a) Commencing February 1, 2011, the delivery or transfer of ownership of handgun ammunition may only occur in a face-to-face transaction with the deliverer or transferor being provided bona fide evidence of identity from the purchaser or other transferee. A violation of this section is a misdemeanor.
(b) For purposes of this section:
(1) "Bona fide evidence of identity" means a document issued by a federal, state, county, or municipal government, or subdivision or agency thereof, including, but not limited to, a motor vehicle operator's license, state identification card, identification card issued to a member of the Armed Forces, or other form of identification that bears the name, date of birth, description, and picture of the person.
(2) "Handgun ammunition" means handgun ammunition as defined in subdivision (a) of Section 12323, but excluding ammunition designed and intended to be used in an "antique firearm" as defined in Section 921(a)(16) of Title 18 of the United States Code. Handgun ammunition does not include blanks.
(3) "Handgun ammunition vendor" has the same meaning as set forth in Section 12060.
(c) Subdivision (a) shall not apply to or affect the deliveries, transfers, or sales of, handgun ammunition to any of the following:
(1) Authorized law enforcement representatives of cities, counties, cities and counties, or state and federal governments for exclusive use by those government agencies if, prior to the delivery, transfer, or sale of the handgun ammunition, written authorization from the head of the agency employing the purchaser or transferee, is obtained identifying the employee as an individual authorized to conduct the transaction, and authorizing the transaction for the exclusive use of the agency employing the individual.
(2) Sworn peace officers, as defined in Chapter 4.5 (commencing with Section 830) of Title 3 of Part 2 who are authorized to carry a firearm in the course and scope of their duties.
(3) Importers and manufacturers of handgun ammunition or firearms licensed to engage in business pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto.
(4) Persons who are on the centralized list maintained by the Department of Justice pursuant to Section 12083.
(5) Persons whose licensed premises are outside this state who are licensed as dealers or collectors of firearms pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto.
(6) Persons licensed as collectors of firearms pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto whose licensed premises are within this state who has a current certificate of eligibility issued to him or her by the Department of Justice pursuant to Section 12071.
(7) A handgun ammunition vendor.
(8) A consultant-evaluator, as defined in subdivision (s) of Section 12001.

HexHead
April 4, 2010, 06:10 PM
Why would Der Sturmfuhrer repeal it? He SIGNED it.

I wouldn't do anything to help anyone in CA. You guys got the government there you deserve by electing all those idiots. You can do like I did and vote with your feet, I got the hell out of there 20 years ago.

AmmoSphere
April 9, 2010, 03:00 AM
I would be happy to move if I didn't grow up here and have family here as well. I'm just going to give the company up to someone who owns a store or lives in another state.

ants
April 9, 2010, 03:32 AM
For purposes of this section, "ammunition" shall include, but not be limited to, any bullet, cartridge, magazine, clip, speed loader, autoloader, or projectileThis law also applies to magazines and speed loaders. Huh???

Do they even know what speed loaders are? Why is a speed loader so utterly dangerous that it requires picture ID, face-to-face transfer, and a fingerprint? Or a Garand clip? Or a stripper clip? They don't even know what they prohibit in this law.

ants
April 9, 2010, 03:35 AM
For purposes of this section, "ammunition" shall include, but not be limited to, any bullet, cartridge, magazine, clip, speed loader, autoloader, or projectileReloaders can't buy bulk bullets by mail either.

Thingster
May 16, 2010, 03:19 AM
AND just yesterday I was taking the cardboard off of a new WATER HOSE I bought and saw a notice, "This package not labeled for sale in California"

Wanna bet is has to do with there not being a lead warning on the package? If the hose has brass fittings, brass contains lead, and therefore must have a warning per california law and cannot be sold with the intentions of anyone under 13 using it, nor can a parent knowingly allow their under 13 yo to use it due to potential lead exposure.

Lead. From brass.

Oyeboten
May 16, 2010, 03:45 AM
I wonder...technically, under these laws, if a parent allows a child to water the lawn, if the parent can then be arrested for child endangerment, since the Brass Fittings on the Hose may contain minute traces of Lead, thus exposing the child to a reckless Toxic "DANGER" worthy of a misdemeanor or felony charge..?

Has Fishing in California has been inconvenienced also?

What about old fashioned Electronics, Soldering Irons...Soldered connections?? Items which contain Soldered connections?

Old Shooter
May 16, 2010, 08:45 AM
Do any real people live in California, and if they do, why?

Talk about a place that wants to get you under their thumb, or rather, your right thumb.

Dosen't California have some sort of "lead free" fishing sinker law? I seem to recall reading that somewhere but can't remember all the details.

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