I'm just wondering what you guys do to alleviate powder fouling? I've tried oiling the cylinder pin for my Remington with Bore Butter, Crisco, a mixture of the two, and olive oil. The result with all of them are that the first four shots fire smoothly but after that I occasionally have trouble cocking the gun for the fifth and sixth shots. To be clear, the first four feel like the action on a cartridge revolver, the fifth sometimes does but also sometimes feels discernably harder, and the sixth sometimes takes turning the cylinder by hand as I cock the gun.
It also doesn't seem to matter whether I grease the chamber mouths or not - the extra grease getting spattered off by the recoil doesn't make any difference.
Before I did a little polishing to the frame where the front of the cylinder touches it the jamming was worse. It does seem better now but I'm worried that more polishing might take too much steel off.
Am I just spoiled by modern guns or am I doing something wrong?
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April 3, 2010, 07:36 PM
The Remington is more prone to foul to a stop than the Colt, as the cylinder pin is much smaller in diameter than the Colt's arbor, and the Remington's hand is closer to the centerline, reducing its leverage to rotate the cylinder.
There is no offset between the barrel/cyl gap and the hole the cyl pin goes through as in later revolver designs that have a bushing/gas ring, so the cylinder gap fires fouling directly into the centerhole.
I have cut away the frame for a bit over 1/8 inch and installed a gas ring in the cylinder, which helps a lot to reduce that fouling, and the cylinder then looks more like the cylinder on a Ruger Old Army, which will just about shoot all day without stopping.
I use the vegetable spray PAM on the cylinder pin. I don't think anyone else has tried it. You might be the second. If you do try it, let me know how it works.
April 3, 2010, 07:46 PM
Does the PAM solution work well? I have some and could try it next time I shoot.
RCFlint - My Remington does have just a little back and forth play on the cylinder. Before it developed that (after my cocking it approximately a thousand times), the binding was worse. Now it will at least go a cylinder full without coming to a stop.
Do you think chamfering the edges of the frame where they come into contact with te cylinder would help? I don't want to take steel off, maybe just remove the sharp edges. Even if I could just get two or three cylinders through it without pulling the cylinder I'd be happy.
I realize it's not a GP-100 and that even in its day they had issues, so I'm not asking for much here.
April 3, 2010, 08:08 PM
goon, the edges aren't really a problem,, as the cylinder only really shears on the barrel forcing cone. The one thing I have seen, more often on a Pietta is the standing breech is not vertical, and the rear face of the cylinder only touches it in one area, usually the top. Hold it up to the light and sight through the rear and see if the cylinder sits flat against the breech, if it doesn't, it's the frame, not the cylinder that is out of square. If you now have more endshake than when new, it has probably seated itself a bit in the breech recoil area. I haven't found thatto be a problem except when a gas ring is installed and is too long even after adjusting it for cylinder gap, the rubbing in the rear will show up in one area or another, and I've filed a bit, using a magic marker to show the rub area more clearly. It only takes a few thousanths to jam things up, but too much and the endshake becomes excessive..
As everyone finds out, black powder fouling is definitely not a lubricant....
If you want to see a Remington foul to a stop real quick, try a 45 Colt caliber conversion cylinder with a black powder load. I shoot my conversions smokeless.
April 3, 2010, 10:59 PM
I use the PAM on my Paterson, a gun that is notorious for jamming due to arbor/cylinder pin fouling. Works great. I tried it on my Remington, another gun that jams due to fouling (the cylinder pins aren't grooved like the Colts') and again it (the PAM) works great. But it doesn't work so well on my Colts or my Ruger Old Army. And it doesn't work so well as a lube for a patch in a rifle - it makes the patches burn.
I spray the cylinder pins, over the loaded balls in the cylinder, and down the barrel. Try it. What the heck. If it works, I'm a genuis. If it doesn't, then I'm...special.
April 3, 2010, 11:57 PM
OK, I'll try it.
I might also see if I can find some kind of spray on dry lube. IIRC, I used to use this stuff that had teflon on it and sprayed on, then dried.
But I guess at the same time, if I'd been packing one in 1865, I probably would have been down to knuckles and a bowie knife by the time I got rid of the six shots in the revolver anyhow.
And I know when I take it to the range that I'm going to spend A LOT of time loading to get that thirty or so shots out of it. I purposely don't take the Remington when I go shooting with friends because I know they just don't have the patience to stand around while I load my revolver, or while I grease it every other cylinder full or so.
Maybe what I have run into here is just a bit of authenticity.
It also makes me wonder... How was something like a S&W Schofield advantageous over anything else in this era? If BP fouling builds up and ties a gun up that fast, what good is a quick reload?
I think I'd have stuck to packing a second revolver.
April 4, 2010, 12:32 AM
It looks like the fellow in this video is using petroleum jelly [Vaseline] to seal the chambers which has been reported to work well.
Because it has a higher viscosity, it might help to better seal the cylinder pin and provide some extra lubrication for the cylinder face longer than a liquid lube would since it may not burn off and dissipate as easily.
I'm not sure which powder you're using but 777 or APP may be cleaner burning powders to try.
Check out this patent for a Colt with a top strap. Seems like Sam Colt was really trying to solve the problem of smoke-caused fouling:
April 4, 2010, 11:23 AM
I'm using Goex FFFg powder. I do have some Pyrodex FFFg equivalent but it's at someone else's house right now - over seventy miles away.
Does 777 burn cleaner generally? And what is APP?
April 4, 2010, 04:12 PM
I have two Uberti Remingtons. They will foul faster shooting 30 grains than 20 grains of powder. I also put a lubed wad under the ball and grease over the ball. When I clean up and lube the gun for storage I put AUTOMOTIVE grease on the cylinder pin and on the back of the cylinder where it rubs on the frame as well as on the front of the cylinder. The heavy bearing grease stays around and works fine. Between cylinder loadings I place a drop of oil (olive oil or Ballistol) on the front of the cylinder where it contacts the frame. I hold the muzzle up and rotate the cylinder so the oil works its way down onto the pin. It takes about 10 seconds and frees the cylinder up fine. You may also have a very tight cylinder gap that causes the cylinder to rub on the forcing cone. I have also had Remingtons in which the front of the cylinder was not machined straight: as the cylinder is rotated the gap would widen or get smaller. Look at the gap as you rotate the cylinder and see if the distance varies. If so, you may want to make the tightest chambers your #1 and #2 shots so the gap opens up as the cylinder rotates and fouling builds while shooting. The easiest way to mark a cylinder is with a drop of fingernail polish over the designated "open" chamber which would be next to the tightest cylinder gap.
April 4, 2010, 04:31 PM
I was thinking along the same lines that it would be better to alter or polish the cylinder face rather than the frame or mouth of the barrel.
The cylinder is easier to replace while the other parts aren't.
But the cause for every circumstance is different.
I'm using Goex FFFg powder. I do have some Pyrodex FFFg equivalent but it's at someone else's house right now - over seventy miles away.
Does 777 burn cleaner generally? And what is APP?
Yes, 777 is about the cleanest burning powder and it's also the most potent sub. Use 15% less volume for BP equivalent loads and the extra recoil that it produces is noticeable. So start with a smaller load when trying it out.
TC makes a solvent that works really well to clean it named T-17.
APP is American Pioneer Powder which is a relatively weaker powder. I only buy the fffg because the ffg is very coarse, and 35 grains of fffg is equal in strength to about 30 grains of the other powders.
It can suck up moisture from the air so transfer what's going to be used for loading into another container, flask or measured vials, and keep the original container tightly closed at all times.
APP produces only a very moderate amount of fouling which is greyish, light & powdery. It's also relatively easy to clean with water as recommended.
April 4, 2010, 05:15 PM
777 is somewhat "self lubricating". That is, the residue from shooting with 777 has a greasy property to it. You just might find that with 777 you are less likely to have as much fouling problems versus using BP.
April 4, 2010, 05:57 PM
Goon this may seem like a long shot but try the lubed felt wads instead of all the grease. Im not saying dont use any(i dont but some say im crazy). last I took my remmy out I probably got around 60 rounds off and the only problem was a piece of cap getting stuck every now and again. Im guessing I shot 60 rounds as I ran out of wads and almost caps. coulda been more but I know it was still goin strong when I left the range.
April 4, 2010, 08:49 PM
I'm planning to try the greased wads as soon as I can get myself a wad punch. I don't want to buy them when I can buy the tools and have them paid for within three hundred or so wads. ;)
Hellgate - thanks. I'll try finding a little bottle to take some olive oil with me next time I go shooting. It's worth a try and will cost me nothing.
Also, the cylinder gap on my gun isn't the problem. I can see about the same amount of daylight between the cylinder and forcing cone regardless of which chamber. Whatever's going on with mine seems to be going on with the cylinder pin or the frame where the cylinder rubs against it.
FWIW, as I think about it, I actually am getting six shots with relatively few problems - it does get harder to cock on the last couple shots but it still seems to do it. It's the next cylinder full after that when I start to get the real binding for the last couple shots.
April 4, 2010, 09:31 PM
Graphite dry lube. or get the spray and spray the arbor shaft then put the cylinder in. Problem is most wet lube will attract more than you want and will cause the fouling. The dry powder graphite will lube the metal to metal contact and prevent fouling as there is nothing to stick too. burnt powder wise. Also use wonder lube wads versus crisco or over ball lube to prevent the gooey lube build up.
April 5, 2010, 09:57 AM
I put AUTOMOTIVE grease on the cylinder pin and on the back of the cylinder where it rubs on the frame as well as on the front of the cylinder. The heavy bearing grease stays around and works fine.
I know several shooters that do this and swear by it. I'm going to give it a try next time I take the Remingtons out. I have been using my grease cookies to lube the pin but I think that the heavier grease well last longer.
April 5, 2010, 10:46 AM
Wow, neat ROA style conversion, rcflint! Some of you guys are just too inventive. :D
Were it me, I'd just shoot 777 in it, much cleaner, don't get the goo like BP. My old 51 Navy would bind up after 60 or 80 shots, too. Just had to clean it when it did that.
April 6, 2010, 11:53 AM
rc flint has the right idea i have mine done and it completly cures the problem, it is a simple conversion to do yourself if you can use a bench drill and a blow torch.
April 6, 2010, 11:37 PM
Last summer I shot some 7 days of black powder with my Uberti Remingtons. Two or three were casual plinking days and the others were all CAS events of 5 stages each. So that's 5 reloads per gun. I didn't have to lube or remove the cylinder even once although there was one day when one or both was getting noticably draggy by the last stage. The oil of choice for all this was good ol' canola cooking oil. The gun was lubed with it after cleaning from the last shoot, the bore was oiled and dry patched with it and the bullets were sealed into the chambers with a drop between the chamber and the ball. And other than that one day they all felt like they were ready to go for at least another two or three reloads before they were going to feel at all gummed up. YMMV but this magic snake oil worked for me and I'll be using the same recipe this coming summer.
April 7, 2010, 11:10 AM
My Euroarms Remingtons don't foul out for an entire match but the Ubertis need a drop of oil onto the cylinder front where it touches the frame between stages.
April 7, 2010, 12:12 PM
I have shot black powder since the early 60's and don't use any oil or grease at all in any of my revolvers.
Just shoot with the cylinder pin or arbor dry and also no grease behind or in front of the ball.
No wads or grease cookies. These things will only make your gun more inaccurate. But maybe some only like hear the bang and see the smoke.
The grease only melts the black powder residue and turns it into a thick paste that gets thicker after each shot and soaks down into the pin or arbor area. With out the grease it stays dry and does not bind up the gun near as bad.
No one I knew in the older days used any lube except for inside the gun. In later years people started to put crisco on top of the balls. I tried it but found it made things worse then better.
Some one said to use graphite. Best answer so far.
That would be best of all if you must use anything.
April 7, 2010, 10:17 PM
According to this (http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=402325) lubricated wads were recommended to reduce BP fouling as early as 1930. That's 80 years ago and most likely lubricated wads were being used well before then.
April 8, 2010, 01:18 AM
I admit I'm suspicious, but it also won't hurt to try a cylinder full with no lube and see what happens. I've already tried with no grease on the chambers - each chamber shaves off a ring of lead as I load the ball so I know I'm getting a good seal already without the grease.
April 8, 2010, 01:59 AM
Hey, Do what the RodDoc says and give us a report. Half the fun of shooting the flotchlocks is rediscovering a lost art. The guns were basically designed to fire SIX shots and that was it.
April 8, 2010, 02:06 AM
Soft lube doesn't really need to be loaded up to the top of each chamber either, and using some doesn't mean that it must be all or nothing.
Some folks recommend to only use a very little bit in every other chamber (3 chambers total) or even only in 1 out of every 3 chambers (2 chamber total).
A small amount of lube may help the cylinder avoid getting stuck for just a little bit longer. :)
April 8, 2010, 04:54 PM
Hellgate - I thought of that too. It's not like it would be that easy to stop and reload one on the field, even with a spare loaded cylinder it would probably take steadier nerves than I have.
And even only six shots is still a huge improvement over a single shot.
Obviously, I'll keep experimenting until I find something that works.
And then I'll have to start all over again when I get a Colt style. ;)
April 8, 2010, 05:31 PM
I use CVA nipple grease on the cylinder pin, works great.
April 11, 2010, 06:04 PM
Range report -
Following part of the advice I got on here, I tried my Remington today without lubing the arbor pin. I was going to skip greasing every chamber as well but there were other people at the range and I didn't want to risk a chainfire (minute risk because my gun does shave a good lead ring, but still...).
Anyhow, I noticed that without lubing the pin the operation does seem a lot smoother. It felt like I was shooting a cartridge revolver. I also cut my charge to 24 grains (from 30). My last cylinder full was 30 grains just because I like to hear the boom, and it was just starting to get a little stiffer to cock for the sixth shot. But to be fair, it was getting dirty by then.
Anyhow, I think from now on I'm going to stick with lighter charges for my informal plinking sessions except when I really want to raise eyebrows combined with greasing the chambers but keeping the pin dry.
Hopefully this will help someone else who finds themselves with this predicament some day.
April 11, 2010, 11:16 PM
I use CVA Grease Patch on all moving parts in my Remigntons and Colts. Seems to work well.
Alas, it's apparently not being manufactured so you may have to use Bore Butter.
I started shooting cap and ball revolvers about 1970, using Crisco. Gave that up years ago for the CVA stuff.
Part of your difficulty with cocking may not entirely be fouling around the cylinder pin. That's part of it, to be sure, but the sides of the hammer and the hammer channel in the frame can get fouled and cause drag as well.
To alleviate this, use a Q-tip to coat the interior of the hammer channel and sides of the hammer. Also, ensure you use a good grease at the back of the cylinder, where the ratchet pushes against it.
The inner, moving parts inside the frame should also have a coating of good grease. This will shrug off fouling better.
The problem with black powder fouling is that it will soak up oil like a sponge, adversely affecting oil's lubricating qualities. You need grease, not oil, on moving parts.
Grease will last longer on the moving parts than oil, becoming a gray sludge but a lubricating sludge nonetheless. Oil will be quickly burned off, leaving bare metal on bare metal.
Greased felt wads also seem to prolong operation. I started with Crisco over the ball years ago but changed to greased felt wad between ball and powder when the difference in bore fouling and general operation became apparent.
Whatever grease you use, it must be natural. I've learned over the years, as have others, that petroleum-based greases tend to create a hard, tarry fouling when mixed with black powder. Natural greases don't do this, and keep the fouling softer.
Natural greases include: lard, Crisco, Bore Butter, SPG bullet lubricant, Lyman Black Powder Gold, tallow and even bacon drippings.
For moving parts, you need a fairly soft grease such as Bore Butter. For the felt wads, a harder grease is needed.
The best lubricant I've found for felt wads is named after me, though it's a modern version of an old recipe I found years ago:
Gatofeo No. 1 Lubricant
1 part canning paraffin
1 part mutton tallow
1/2 part beeswax
All parts are by weight, not volume. Substitution of any ingredients results in an inferior product.
Use only real beeswax; toilet seals are no longer a reliable source, they've been petroleum-based for 10 years or more.
Undoubtedly, some will disagree, point and laugh at the old geezer, or say it's too much trouble to do all of the above. They're entitled, but the above works for me.
April 17, 2010, 01:01 PM
I can shoot 4 full cylinders full before the cylinder starts to drag on the arbor. I copied a Colt trick and used my Dremel to grind rings into the arbor about 1-2 mm apart that hold the Crisco I use. Pushing the arbor throught that cylinder without these just kinda pushes off most of the lube and the little that is left is dirtied quicker. The stuff in my groves heats up while shooting and lets alittle of it mix in almost on an as needed basis and seems to realy postpone this lockup. My only Remingtons I have not done this to are the one I am have for sale and my authentic 1858 Police cap and ball version.
April 17, 2010, 04:50 PM
I thought about trying that on the arbor pin on mine too because as you note, the lube doesn't really stay on the pin. There just isn't anywhere for it to go.
But it seems as though keeping the pin dry and not running heavier charges will probably do the trick. I'm going to try to find a sweet spot that gets me the most boom (which I like) with a manageable amount of fouling.
April 17, 2010, 06:02 PM
Putting a single drop of oil on the cylinder face where it contacts the frame and holding the muzzle up and twirling/juggling the cylinder takes about 10 seconds between loadings and the gun will keep shooting all day with 30 gr of powder. The pin will pull right out when you go to clean it. Just go get a small squeeze bottle for the oil. I use olive oil but Ballistol would be even better. No need to groove the cylinder pin. I also use automotive grease on the cylinder pin and back of the cylinder where it rubs the frame.
April 18, 2010, 12:36 AM
The Gatofeo has some good ideas. I carry a small gunoil bottle filled with Hoppe's black powder solvent. After each cylinder, I pull the cylinder pin an inch or so and put a couple drops on it. Always works. There are probably other ideas in this thread just as good.
April 19, 2010, 01:45 AM
rcflint: " If you want to see a Remington foul to a stop real quick, try a 45 Colt caliber conversion cylinder with a black powder load. I shoot my conversions smokeless. "
You got that right, with my Kirst .45 LC CC, two shots max with BP. I am now a Trail Boss guy for the .45 LC, no problems whatsoever.
April 19, 2010, 01:58 AM
That Rem 58 C&B fouling is why I now have three cylinders for it. With practice cylinders can be changed out in just a few seconds.
Kirst .45 LC CC at top of pistol, so actually 4 cylinders.