pistols with stocks question...


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DammitBoy
April 4, 2010, 10:32 AM
If you attached a stock like on an old Browning Hi-Power or a Luger or the Broomhandle Mauser to the pistol, does this make it an NFA item?

Is it Class III or Class II?

Color me confused.

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crushbup
April 4, 2010, 11:01 AM
The ATF has exemptions for certain C&R handguns. IIRC, you can't just put a stock on any old Hi-Power, it has to be one that was made for use with a stock.

Sam1911
April 4, 2010, 12:04 PM
Couple of answers:

First off: The whole "Class III" nomenclature issue. The guns aren't "Class II" or "Class III." All firearms are divided into categories as to how they are regulated under the National Firearms Act of 1934. "Title I" of the NFA covers rifles, shotguns, and handguns." "Title II" covers the more regulated items like machine guns, silencers, short-barreled rifles and shotguns, destructive devices, and "Any Other Weapons."

The "Class" confusion ("There you go, bringing CLASS into it again!" -- Obligatory Holy Grail reference.) is how the different FFL licensees that may work with Title II regulated firearms are taxed. A manufacturer of these guns must hold a manufacturer's FFL and pay the "Special Occupational Tax -- Class 02." A dealer who sells machine guns, SBRs, etc. must hold a dealer's FFL and pay the "Special Occupational Tax -- Class 03." So you have "Class 03 dealers" but not "Class 03" GUNS.

Make sense? Not really, but there it is. ;)

----------------------------

Regarding Hi-Powers, c-96 Mausers, etc.: Certain guns are exempt due to historic status. But, like most things the ATF does, they are exempt by specific serial number, not as a general class of item. So, some Mausers can be fitted with the shoulder stocks, but not most. Further, it has been ruled that they can only be fitted with ORIGINAL shoulder stocks, not reproductions. There is a lot of this information available on-line. I'll try to dig some up for you.

Sam1911
April 4, 2010, 12:09 PM
Here's a quote I pulled off of TFL which sheds some light:

Reproduction stocks are NOT legal for attachment to the Mauser C96, Browning Hi Power or Luger unless you hold a SBR tax stamp.

Current ATF regs say it has to be an original stock. As of 1999 a reproduction/replica/copy is an NFA violation unless you have a SBR tax stamp.

Only certain 96 Mauser, Lugers and HP's are exempt from the National Firearms Act. You can see the complete list at:http://www.atf.gov/firearms/curios/1...7/section3.pdf

It's getting harder and harder to tell an original from a copy. When the ATF ruled in 1981 that a replica stock holster was okay, quite a few very good copies were imported. Sportsman's Guide was selling Inglis HP wood stock copies last year for about $80 each. A genuine WWII vintage stock holster should run you at least $275-350.

ATF has issued conflicting "opinions" regarding replica stock/holsters.
I printed and keep both letters with my stocked Inglis.

From 1981 (said repros are okay):
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/user/wb...f_letter58.txt

From 1999 (said repros need $200 tax stamp):
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/user/wb...f_letter70.txt

****Only those Inglis Hi Powers with a Tangent rear sight are exempt from the NFA when a stock is attached. A number of fixed sight Inglis Hi Powers had a stock slot cut at the factory but ARE NOT exempt from the NFA.

Unfortunately, those links are broken, but I'm sure you can search them out if you need to.

rocky branch
April 6, 2010, 02:02 AM
You can put an original or repro stock on a 8 inch artillery luger.
Same-same Navy Luger.
No go for a standard Luger.

Same goes for M96 Mausers.
HPs also must be of original types.

That should be crystal clear-or not.

Dimis
April 6, 2010, 08:47 PM
hmmm now im curious

how do you add a stock to a modern handgun then?

example being ive seen stocks on Glock 18s (yes i know gotta be pre 86 etc etc)

but lets say you wanted to put a stock on your Glock 17? (which ive seen done as well)

do you just register as an SBR? and if so how does that effect the firearm ownership if you decide to ditch the stock (the glock ones ive seen are detatchable)

sorry for the highjack but got me thinking

rfurtkamp
April 6, 2010, 08:56 PM
Putting a stock on an existing pistol (G17 or whatever) is a Form 1 and $200.

There are conflicting letters floating around as to whether or not you can return it to non-rifle status (since you have put a stock on it).

Sam1911
April 6, 2010, 09:15 PM
G17 would have to be registered as a Short Barreled Rifle before you add the stock.

You can't "unregister" it.

A question I've never seen answered is, once you have your SBR G17, say you want to move to, or travel to AL or NC or WA, or some other state that doesn't allow SBRs, are you forbidden to bring that weapon because it is REGISTERED as an SBR, or would that only be illegal if configured as an SBR?

I'd assume you'd have to file a Form 5320.20 in any case, and the ATF would tell you (disapprove the form) if it was illegal, but I don't know for sure how this would actually work, legally.

Would the registered status be enough to make possession of that G17 illegal in WA, for example, or would it only be illegal if actually assembled as an SBR at that moment?

rfurtkamp
April 6, 2010, 10:05 PM
Would the registered status be enough to make possession of that G17 illegal in WA, for example, or would it only be illegal if actually assembled as an SBR at that moment?


There's a letter floating around saying it's ok to do with a rifle returned to normal configuration for travel purposes - as long as it's not configured as a SBR at the time.

On a pistol, it's a who knows. Given conflicting letters on returning pistol-to-sbr Form 1s (which variously state that it's OK or it's a rifle and needs to be 26" OAL/16" barrel), this one anyone's best guess.

jmorris
April 7, 2010, 10:46 AM
G17 would have to be registered as a Short Barreled Rifle before you add the stock.


Unless it’s a machine gun then you can add the stock without any additional paper work.

http://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv5/qvideo/7409/HPIM0327.jpg

dogtown tom
April 17, 2010, 09:04 PM
Sam1911 Here's a quote I pulled off of TFL which sheds some light:


Quote:
Reproduction stocks are NOT legal for attachment to the Mauser C96, Browning Hi Power or Luger unless you hold a SBR tax stamp.

Current ATF regs say it has to be an original stock. As of 1999 a reproduction/replica/copy is an NFA violation unless you have a SBR tax stamp.

Only certain 96 Mauser, Lugers and HP's are exempt from the National Firearms Act. You can see the complete list at:http://www.atf.gov/firearms/curios/1...7/section3.pdf

It's getting harder and harder to tell an original from a copy. When the ATF ruled in 1981 that a replica stock holster was okay, quite a few very good copies were imported. Sportsman's Guide was selling Inglis HP wood stock copies last year for about $80 each. A genuine WWII vintage stock holster should run you at least $275-350.

ATF has issued conflicting "opinions" regarding replica stock/holsters.
I printed and keep both letters with my stocked Inglis.

From 1981 (said repros are okay):
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/user/wb...f_letter58.txt

From 1999 (said repros need $200 tax stamp):
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/user/wb...f_letter70.txt

****Only those Inglis Hi Powers with a Tangent rear sight are exempt from the NFA when a stock is attached. A number of fixed sight Inglis Hi Powers had a stock slot cut at the factory but ARE NOT exempt from the NFA.
Unfortunately, those links are broken, but I'm sure you can search them out if you need to.

That was my post on TFL. Several months ago the ATF Tech Branch letters disappeared from that server. I blame the Obama administration an/or aliens for this disappearance.

Here is a list of Tech Branch letters: http://www.titleii.com/bardwell/law.html

It is my understanding that ATF keeps these individual letters organized by date, not subject, which makes cross referencing impossible. This probably explains why there are conflicting opinions as to the legality of "replica" vs. "original" stocks.

http://www.titleii.com/bardwell/atf_letter58.txt
1981 letter on use of reproduction Luger and High Power shoulder stocks

DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO AND FIREARMS
WASHINGTON, D.C. 20226

MAY 29 1981

T:T:F:CHB
7540
Dr.
Odin international
Fairfax, VA

Dear Dr. :

This refers to your letters of March 13 and March 30, 1981, in
which you ask that certain Luger and Browning Hi-Power pistols
equipped with reproduction shoulder stocks be considered for
removal from the provisions of the National Firearms Act.

It is not the policy of this Bureau to render a classification on
a shoulder stock which in and of itself is not subject to the
provisions of the Gun Control Act or the NFA. However, as you are
aware, certain Luger and Browning Hi-Power pistols when accompanied
by original shoulder stocks have been removed from the purview of
the NFA.

Our Firearms Classification Panel has examined your request and it
is their opinion that the above mentioned pistols equipped with
currently made reproduction shoulder stocks which either duplicate
or closely approximate the dimensions and configuration of the
original stocks would also be primarily of interest to collectors
and not likely to be used as weapons. Therefore, any Luger or
Browning Hi-Power pistol which would be removed from the purview of
the NFA if equipped with an original shoulder stock, would also not
be subject to the NFA if equipped with a reproduction shoulder
stock which either duplicates or closely approximates the
dimensions and configuration of the original stock.

It must be pointed out that should one of the subject reproduction
stocks be attached to any handgun which has not been specifically
removed from the purview of the NFA with an original stock, the
combination would be subject to all of the registration and
transfer provisions of the NFA.

We trust that the foregoing has been responsive to your inquiry.
If we can be of any further assistance, please contact us.

Sincerely yours,

[signed]
C. Michael Hoffman
Assistant Director
(Technical and Scientific Services)

http://www.titleii.com/bardwell/atf_letter70.txt


DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO AND FIREARMS
WASHINGTON, DC 20226

MAR 12 1999

903050:RDC
3311

Dear :


This refers to your letter of January 4, 1999, In which you inquire
about the legality of purchasing a replica shoulder stock for your
Canadian Inglis No. 1 Chinese contract Browning Hi Power 9mm semi
automatic pistol having a serial number that begins with the letter
"CH".

27 Code of Federal Regulations (CFR), Part 178, section 178.11,
defines the term "curio or relic" as firearms which are of special
interest to collectors by reason of some quality other than is
associated with firearms intended for sporting use or as offense or
defensive weapons. To be recognized as curios or relics, firearms
must fall within one of the following categories:

(a) Firearms which were manufactured at least 50 years prior to the
current date, but not including replicas thereof;

(b) Firearms which are certified by the curator of a municipal,
State, or Federal museum which exhibits firearms to be curios or
relics of museum interest; and

(c) Any other firearms which derive a substantial part of their
monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, bizarre, or
because of their association with some historical figure, period,
or event. Proof of qualification of a particular firearm under
this category may be established by evidence of present value and
evidence that like firearms are not available except as collector's
items, or that the value of like firearms available in ordinary
commercial channels is substantially less.

- 2 -

Mr.

The Bureau has previously determined that the Canadian Inglis No.
1 Chinese contract Browning Hi Power 9mm semiautomatic pistol
accompanied by an original Canadian manufactured detachable wooden
holster/shoulder stock is a "curio or relic" as defined in 27 CFR,
Part 178, section 178.11. This specific pistol and shoulder stock
combination has been determined to be primarily a collector's item
and not likely to be used as a weapon. The combination is
therefore removed from the provisions of the National Firearms Act
(NFA).

A Canadian Inglis No. 1 Chinese contract browning Hi Power 9mm
semiautomatic pistol with a compatible reproduction
holster/shoulder stock is still subject to all of the provisions of
the NFA. Individuals desiring to acquire a reproduction
holster/shoulder stock for their Canadian Inglis No. 1 must first
submit and have approved ATF Form 1 "Application to Make and
Register a Firearm" and pay the applicable $200 making tax.

We trust that the foregoing has been responsive to your inquiry.
If we can be of any further assistance, please contact us.



Sincerely yours,

[signed]
Edward M. Owen, Jr.
Chief, Firearms Technology Branch

Sam1911
April 17, 2010, 11:05 PM
Sweet! Thanks for the update!

Carl N. Brown
April 20, 2010, 06:37 AM
To my 25 Jun 2002 letter to ATF firearms & technology branch, the 3 Jan 2003 response was that the original Mauser pistol with original shoulder stock produced prior to 1940 was a curio or relic, not subject to the 34NFA (Title II) as an SBR, but still subject to 68GCA (Title I) as a handgun. (Mine is in the 107,000 serial number range indicating pre-WWI (1912-1913) manufacture.)

ATF has previously determined that Mauser Model 1896
pistols with reproduction stocks, which duplicate or
closely approximate the originals, have also been
removed from the provisions of the NFA. Copies of the
Mauser pistol using frames of recent manufacture, with
shoulder stocks, are still subject to the NFA.

The letter was signed by Curtis H.A. Bartlett, Chief, Firearms Technology Branch
ADDED:
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=106653&d=1254784322
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=106640&d=1254770838


I keep a copy of my letter in the case with the gun and retain the original in a safe place.

Sam1911
April 20, 2010, 07:17 AM
Awesome! Thanks Carl!

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