price of "Quickload" program?


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W.E.G.
April 5, 2010, 01:26 AM
Where does it say how much the program costs?

I'm looking at the page at
http://www.neconos.com/details3.htm

All I see is a "click to buy" link, that takes me to the page at
http://www.neconos.com/shop/

...which is an 800-number

Is this one of those, "If you have to ask, you can't afford it" things?

Or am I just too lame to see the darn price tag right there in front of me?

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918v
April 5, 2010, 01:33 AM
About $150

Well worth it, though.

W.E.G.
April 5, 2010, 01:49 AM
Thanks.

I know what my wife is getting me for Christmas. http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd7/rkba2da/smileys/small_grin.gif

Is there a link to buy it online, or does it actually require that the purchaser call the 800-number?

ArchAngelCD
April 5, 2010, 03:39 AM
Here is the link to their Software Pricing Page (http://www.neconos.com/category/Software-2), the price above is correct. Is it really worth the $150? I've heard there are powders missing and a few other problems with missing or unavailable variable in the program. Is that true?

Myke_Hart
April 5, 2010, 08:56 AM
I have it and love it. Paid $150

I have not found any missing powders yet, bullets and bullet info yes, but you can add any bullet or powder you want. You just have to enter its info and save it as the bullet or powder name.

It really helps me when I have a unpublished bullet to determine starting loads and when I should start getting near max pressure.

Once you have the measurements correct, I have found quickloads to give me velocity readings within 50fps of actual.

I highly recommend it for taking your handloading to the next level.

What is the neatest is that you can play with seating depths or brass lengths to see what effect the change has on pressure. It is amazing how much the pressure changes with tiny little changes.

Its one flaw is that it does not factor in primers, I am hoping they add that one day.

jfh
April 5, 2010, 10:05 AM
Ridgeway_CO. I've conferred with him from time to time on the program. Maybe he can check in with a mini-review.

I think the program database is updated by the manufacturer--and that might be where an increased cost comes in--i..e. purchasing the updates.

Is this true, or no longer true, or whatever?

Jim

RidgwayCO
April 5, 2010, 10:36 AM
I've been accused on more than one occasion of being a QuickLOAD shill, but it really is a terrific program that provides information available nowhere else.

Is QuickLOAD perfect? Well... no. But I've not found much perfection in my 54 years on this lovely orb, so that criticism doesn't bother me much. Is it useful? Most definitely. It saves me a lot of time when working up a new or unusual load.

QuickLOAD is missing a few commonly-used powders (Trail Boss, all of the IMR handgun powders, and HS-7), but it does cover the Accurate, Ramshot, and my beloved VihtaVuori powders completely (as well as almost all of the Hodgdon powders). Updates come out about every year or so for a very nominal fee (about $15 if I remember correctly). But I've only purchased updates when there was some burning need for a specific powder in the update.

Some of the data in QuickLOAD also seems a little off for Power Pistol and AA #2, at least in my experience (it may just be a lot-to-lot variation thing). What I've found is that, for every cartridge I load, if I very carefully measure the actual water capacity a case will hold and then average this weight over ten cases, the numbers the program computes are much more accurate. Consequently, the only "mixed-brass" I now use is in .380 Auto, and I'm getting ready to retire that group of cases.

Where QuickLOAD really shines is in helping to solve problems for which there is no readily available information. Here are two examples...

First, I want to load a heavyweight lead bullet in .44 Special without exceeding the SAAMI maximum average pressure. QuickLOAD was essential in telling me that I could do it safely and efficiently, and that the best powder for this task might well be VihtaVuori's N105, a powder I'd never considered previously. Initial testing is very promising.

Second, I want to load an efficient .357 Magnum round with 158gr bullets at "tweener" velocities (between .38 Special +P and full-bore .357 Magnum pressures). QuickLOAD has made that task a piece of cake. It's also fun to run "what-if" problems using bullets of 140gr and 180gr under the same scenario.

I could go on and on about QuickLOAD (and you may think this comment has done that...), but is it worth $150? I don't know about you, but it sure has been for me. YMMV.

W.E.G.
April 5, 2010, 11:47 AM
Here is the link to their Software Pricing Page,...

BINGO!

Thanks.

...and many thanks to the others for the comments and info.

Offfhand
April 5, 2010, 12:30 PM
Even if the Quickload program cost $500. it would still be a bargan. It'a basic tool for the serious handloader.

DWFan
April 5, 2010, 06:52 PM
RidgwayCO, as noted in the Feb 2010 Handloader magazine, AA#2 has had different production facilities in its life and, as a result, load/velocity variation is to be expected.

Is there a version of Quickload that works in Linux? I have never gotten a response from them if it exists or if there are plans for it.

David Wile
April 5, 2010, 07:51 PM
Hey folks,

I have read the posts thus far in this thread, and Offfhand stated, "Even if the Quickload program cost $500. it would still be a bargan. It'a basic tool for the serious handloader." That to me is a pretty powerful statement, and it really got my attention.

I am one of the older folks on this forum, and I admit that I have some issues with the old dog and new tricks thing. So, I would like to respectfully ask some questions about the need for this software program. I read about how Myke and Ridgeway use the program, but as I read their posts, I could not help wonder what it would do for me that I could not do with the various manuals I have? I have always recommended the Lyman manual as a first manual to start with for any new reloader, and here Offfhand says it is a basic tool for the serious handloader.

I never considered myself a "serious" handloader. After all these years, I considered myself a fairly knowledgeable handloader, but I always considered serious handloaders the ones who measured their finished rounds for concentricity, and I never felt the need to do that. Heck, I already made ammunition that could shoot more accurately than I was able to shoot.

So, could I ask in a respectful way a bit more about why folks consider the subject software program so necessary?

Best wishes,
Dave Wile

RyanM
April 5, 2010, 09:03 PM
The main cases where Quickload really proves its worth would be when you go "hm, I've got powder X, and bullet Y, and want to use them together. Oh, no, none of the load manuals have data even remotely similar to that combination!"

It would also be very useful if you shoot a lot of wildcat calibers that don't have any reloading data, or at best have some loads from some guy who is basically saying "yeah, they didn't blow up my rifle, so they're probably fine in yours."

It also tells you the pressure when the bullet is in a certain part of the barrel. That can help you work up loads that will cycle a particular gas-op, if you know what pressure it likes at the gas port.

Peter M. Eick
April 5, 2010, 09:53 PM
I agree with the above. I use my quickload to test ideas and try out non-standard combinations. I was curious yesterday how a 357 maximum would do from a 26" barrel and I played around with different combinations of powder and bullets. End result, probably not a good idea. 38/55 would be a better choice.

I play a lot testing reload data after I calibrate the factors to my gun. For example I have a bunch of 125 grn lead rn bullets in .356 and am l loading for 38 super. I know that my 13 gr ns of Lil gun does about 1100 fps and quickload predicts 1118 fps. But I am hitting only 19339 max chamber pressure. Playing with the powder says I can work up to 14.2 before I get into problems and that will get me to 1285 fps. So I will work up a set of tests and see if I can match the powder curve. My goal is 1300 fps which should be doable but I may get into pressure right at 14.3 grns.

This the type of games I play. It lets me test the ideas before I load them and save powder and bullets.

armarsh
April 5, 2010, 10:19 PM
It gives you far more info than any manual. For instance, muzzle pressure. If you want to find the quietest load you can pick the one with the lowest muzzle pressure.

You can set fast and slow powder limits and max pressure and it will give you a chart with all loads that meet your criteria.

For me, the only limitation is that it is missing a couple pistol powders (one is longshot) that I really like. I'm going to see if they are in 3.6 and will update for them.

Grump
April 6, 2010, 12:45 AM
For me the greatest utility and value has been in being able to factor in case capacity.

Turns out that I CANNOT load the new batch of FC cases the same as my old batch. New stuff is within 0.12% of my twin military cases, and 3.3% less capacity than the old batch. To keep it safe, the loads for "old" FC need to be downloaded almost exactly a full grain of powder.

Without QuickLOAD, there would be 2-3 times as much load testing when making component changes like this.

It also confirmed for me that Hornady A-Max Bullets really do run a slight bit higher pressure than equal-weight SMKs and Nosler clones.

QuickLOAD takes you from educated guesses to quantified, educated, and calculated estimates. You might have to fudge powder burn rates because of lot variations, but once you have that, I've found the one measurable variable, velocity, to be quite reliably predictable.

Myke_Hart
April 6, 2010, 12:48 AM
Don't think of quickload as a manual or a substitute for a manual. It is not!

Think of it as a ballistics lab. A virtual test lab to test pressure curve and velocities of any powder/bullet combination you can come up with.

Your manual might have your load listed but shot with a shorter or longer barrel.

Great for trying new powders before buying, or trying new bullets before buying.

Play with seating depths, bullet wieghts, barrel length and powder charges. Without taking a single shot.

As for missing powders and bullets, you can add them by creating a new file or load them from a powder or bullet profile.

Wow, I'm starting to sound like Billy Mays here. RIP

ants
April 6, 2010, 02:19 AM
And this is a serious question in the best of spirit. :) Myke Hart's comment above made me stop and think.

In a true ballistics lab preparing load data to be published, one of the factors determining max load is the standard deviation. The max load is the one which falls two standard deviations below the SAAMI standard for maximum chamber pressure. This is an industry standard for published manuals, according to the techs I meet at the SHOT show. Standard deviation is calculated from the data collected in the lab, and cannot be modeled mathematically.

My understanding of QuickLoad is that it is a mathematical model. The lab techs tell me that mathematical modeling is completely feasible in modern ballistics. In fact, it is a very important primary tool during the design phases of new cartridges and components. But they also warn that models are not a substitute for lab tests, the data from which is gleaned such things as real-world variance (as measured by standard deviation) even when as many factors as possible are held constant in the lab. Why factor a two standard deviation variance into the published data? Because the real world is not a lab with controlled conditions. Two standard deviations below max explains 97.5% of sample data, which is enough to keep us safe as reloaders.

So here's the QuickQuestion: Do you really use QuickLoad to tell you how much powder to use in a load, or do you build the model using QuickLoad, then carefully consider how much you need to back off to account for real-world conditions?

918v
April 6, 2010, 03:31 AM
QL needs to be used in conjunction with published data. I have found it to be pretty accurate with bottlenecked data, but iffy with straightwalled stuff. QL's best use is not to find maximum pressure for a given load, but to get a well rounded idea what is going on inside your chamber when the gun fires.

I use it to create combinations where nearly 100% of the powder is consumed inside the barrel, the pressure curve is nice and gradual, and I get the velocity I want within the SAAMI maximum pressure limits.

For example, when loading 357 bullets in a 9mm at an oal of .990" for about 1000 FPS one quickly discovers that 231 is an inappropriate powder. This is not due to maximum pressure, but due to the shape of the pressure curve. A simple switch to Universal Clays broadens the pressure curve and magically stops the casehead from assuming breechface imperfections. This is an extreme example. While both 231 and Universal Clays deliver 1000 FPS within the maximum pressure parameters and are both consumed completely inside the barrel, the latter is much more gentle on the gun and the brass in that particular application.

When using QL you quickly begin to understand the effect of OAL reduction on pressure, velocity, and combustion. You see why it is not a good idea to load heavy bullets on top of fast burning rate powders or why Blue Dot creates such a huge fireball or why Reloader 22 is too slow for the 308.

It is a wonderful tool.

Afy
April 6, 2010, 06:16 AM
I am another Quickload groupie. Manuals are good, but QL is a lot better.
Since I am always tinkering with bullets and OAL et al, it does save me a ton of time and effort to find good loads.

Myke_Hart
April 6, 2010, 09:07 AM
Do you really use QuickLoad to tell you how much powder to use in a load, or do you build the model using QuickLoad, then carefully consider how much you need to back off to account for real-world conditions?

Sorta... On a new unpublished load, I get a theoretical MIN and MAX powder charge from quickload. Start at the MIN and work up from there.

But mostly use quickload to tweak loads, by changing seating depth, and brass length, or test component combinations to see if they will work.

Another thing I do with it is duplicate factory loads, I know the brass, bullet, powder charge in grains, primer, and velocity it produces on my equipment. All I have to do is substitute a powder type and charge.

RidgwayCO
April 6, 2010, 10:19 AM
When I'm developing a new load, I enter the basic parameters into QuickLOAD (case capacity, bullet length, COL, and barrel length) and then check a variety of powders for appropriateness. I'm usually looking for a specific level of performance (velocity/energy), and I like to see most or all of the powder being burned before the bullet exits the barrel for efficiency. As a safety step, I back things off at least 10% (usually more) from the computed maximum powder charge, and chronograph that load as a "reality check". If the load checks out, then I'll continue to work up the load carefully.

My thought process with QuickLOAD is that, if real world performance from my weapon is similar to what QuickLOAD predicts, then real world pressure must also be close to QuickLOAD's prediction. I understand intellectually that this might not be so, but it's the best I can do on my own without an expensive pressure testing lab. I try to compensate for the unknown variables by not loading anything within 5% of the SAAMI max average pressure. When I flew jets for a living, I'd sometimes hear other pilots say they were adding 5 knots to their final approach speed "for mom and the kids". My arbitrary 5% reduction from max average pressure uses a similar thought process.

The critical point here is that without QuickLOAD (and a chronometer), I wouldn't even know where to start.

Peter M. Eick
April 6, 2010, 10:39 PM
armash,

Longshot is in 3.6.

Any other powders you want checked?

FROGO207
April 7, 2010, 12:36 AM
Any trail boss listings in there yet?

Myke_Hart
April 7, 2010, 09:35 AM
I have found this.

Apparently hawkfeather on this forum has created a powder profile that works for trailboss.

See link.
http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-412520.html

He has not been active sice 2008 so I sent him a PM asking if he was willing to share the QL trailboss data he formulated. Its a long shot, I hope his email hasn't changed.

Myke_Hart
April 7, 2010, 09:56 AM
I did find a post from 2008 were Hartmut Broemel (creator of QL) says that a trail boss powder profile is not possible.

Best bet would be to contact him to see what he says today. http://www.neconos.com/

09/14/08 07:42 AM H_Broemel - At this moment I see no way to implement TrailBoss data: First, I do not get any data from the manufacturer. Second, TrailBoss is working very smooth when using a case filling between 65 and 80 percent, above this it produces erratic pressures. I made some tests with 308 Win and 30-06 with a 165grain bullet: When I fill a case to 100% (no air gap between bullet and powder top) I get still get safe pressures about 2500 bars or 36000 psi, but a very high S.D. The pressure jumps about plus-minus 10000 psi up and down. This behaviour cannot be calculated.
I will not put propellant data on the internet for downloading, because of sensitivity to export restrictions.
If someone has special needs, feel free to send a PM. Updated data are usually available after the ShotShow and the IWA, that means each year about end of March.


Source: https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/2374001/page/1

ants
April 7, 2010, 08:16 PM
This thread has been great. My thanks to everyone contributing.

jfh
April 7, 2010, 08:24 PM
I'll second that observation, ants. I'd buy it now, but I just snagged that 624 as an "impulse buy."

Jim H.

Suburban 72
April 8, 2010, 01:46 AM
DWFan :Is there a version of Quickload that works in Linux?

If not, you can always try using it in Wine. I've used Wine to play a few of my old windows games. The most recent I've tried Wine with are XP games and they work great. Wine should be in the repository.

armarsh
April 9, 2010, 12:14 AM
armash,

Longshot is in 3.6.

Any other powders you want checked?

Excellent! That is enough excuse to update, since I skipped 3.5. Thanks!

ArchAngelCD
April 9, 2010, 02:54 AM
I agree, this thread has been very informative, thank you to everyone who took the time to explain the program...

helg
April 9, 2010, 03:31 AM
armash,

Longshot is in 3.6.

Any other powders you want checked?

Peter,

Could you, please, check IMR 700x and Winchester WST?

918v
April 9, 2010, 03:37 AM
and WSF please!

sonick808
April 9, 2010, 04:14 AM
My version of wine is griping about MSVBVM50.DLL. No luck yet. I'm sure it can be made to run though. My v. of wine is very old as it's on my fileserver and i can't be bothered to upgrade and lose my 500000 scripts that my network depends on. (lazy).

YMMV

EDIT: Copied in the DLL and now Quickload (under wine) is saying installation not complete. Restart installation from disk. Registry dependencies ?

Maybe someone with newer wine and distro can try. I'm way back in 2005

FROGO207
April 9, 2010, 08:46 AM
Thanks guys.
Rick

azar
April 9, 2010, 11:25 AM
DWFan,

No, there is no Linux version and I highly doubt there ever will be. QuickLOAD is a niche product with a very small market. The number of potential windows users is quite small and I imagine the potential pool of Linux QuickLOAD users is infinitesimally small at least from a business perspective.

sonick808,

I don't have QuickLOAD but I do have the demo version which is a crippled version of 3.2. So, it's not exactly the latest version. I also have the latest developer version of wine (1.1.42) and I'm able to install and (apparently) run QuickLOAD just fine. I haven't tested that every feature works without crashing and I won't be able to since many of the features are disabled in the demo. But it does install and appear to behave just fine under Ubuntu 8.04 LTS with Wine 1.1.42.

ArchAngelCD
April 10, 2010, 03:49 AM
I don't have QuickLOAD but I do have the demo version which is a crippled version of 3.2.
Can you steer me in the right direction to download the demo so I can check it out before I decide to buy it or not...

sonick808
April 10, 2010, 07:09 AM
azar: good to know, thanks. I'm going to run an strace and watch the whole exec stack and see what happens; should reveal what it's looking for. But first, I'm going to install a new distro on a spare box and try it there. If the registered version still fails, I'll run the stack traces.....

azar
April 10, 2010, 07:44 PM
ArchAngelCD,

It's right on the QuickLOAD page on the left hand side. Look right down under the QuickLOAD logo. It says "Click to download NEW QuickLoad Ballistics Demo". They are now on version 3.6 and the demo still claims 3.2. I don't know if the program has changed significantly in those releases or if it's mostly updated data.

http://www.neconos.com/details3.htm

Peter M. Eick
April 11, 2010, 05:03 PM
No 700x, no 800x, no WST and no WSF.

No trailboss either (or sr4756).

redneck2
April 11, 2010, 08:27 PM
I'm trying to find info for a .458 SOCOM. Internet stuff is really scarce. Does the program give capacities of standard Starline cases or enough info to give starting loads??

I saw that Lil'Gun is supposed to give excellent velocities, but the link on the thread required a paid subscription. If I'm gonna do that, I'll maybe buy Quickload instead.

armarsh
April 12, 2010, 09:46 AM
458 Socom is in Quickload. It looks like 34 grains of lil gun would be a god starting point for 350 grain bullets. It shows that is 1778 fps. For 500 grain it is 23 grains for 1317 fps. I used a 20" barrel. These are about 15% below max pressure.

It also shows that R10, ADI AR2207, and H322 outperform lil gun by about 40 fps.

Peter M. Eick
April 12, 2010, 08:24 PM
One of the neat features is you can have it give you a run of what all of the powders would do to achieve the same pressure as your current load. So if you take the load above you can get a report of what all of the other powders would do to the same pressure level. Neat feature.

helg
April 12, 2010, 08:29 PM
No 700x, no 800x, no WST and no WSF.

No trailboss either (or sr4756).
Thanks, Peter. I doubt that the reason that these are not included is the same as for the trailboss - inconsistency.

tom357mag
April 12, 2010, 09:54 PM
Anybody want to burn me a copy?

redneck2
April 12, 2010, 09:55 PM
OK, so I'm going to use this for deer hunting. I really don't care so much about bullet weight. I'm thinking most any bullet launched at close to 2,000 fps will whack Bambi quite well. My goal is the flattest shooting (fastest) round I can get.

Does it list available bullet weights and corresponding velocity/drop?

I've got AA 1680, Benchmark, and RL 10 on hand. My thought is, that if those powders beat Lil'gun, I could maybe use RL-10 with 325's and approach 2,000 fps.

All the input is much appreciated. The more you guys talk about this, the more I'm thinking this program is in my future.

elkaholic1
July 23, 2010, 12:35 AM
Does the latest version have RL17?

stodd
July 23, 2010, 01:14 AM
Does Quickload program have updates for Plated bullets like from Berry's?

Anyone know where else you can download a demo at? Their link for demo doesn't work. It will download but not install.

rjrivero
July 23, 2010, 02:25 AM
Version 3.6 does have Reloader 17. It does not have Berry's Bullets. It does have data from Rainier, though.

desertfox2001
August 7, 2010, 07:36 PM
I absolutely love the software.

Redneck2: the software comes with Quick Target (mine did, but got the original version a LONG time ago), you can pull your load data and gun data from Quick Load into Quick Target and see what the trajectory is.....bullet drop, bullet drop with various zero distances....heck, you can even imput optic info and it will tell you how many clicks you need to adjust for various ranges......While it still takes real world testing, it gets you really close.

I am currently using Quickload to help me figure out some far from traditional loads. I am loading heavy 308 projectiles in a pistol cartridge for subsonic shooting....and trying to find a load that will also cycle the semi auto rifle. So I am loving the aspect of quickload that will let you see the pressure at various points in the barrel. up to this point, I have always shot commercial of surplus ammo so do not really know what pressures I need at my gas port to make this thing cycle.....once I find a load that just runs it, I can go back into quickload and see what the pressure is at that point in the barrel, and that is my magic number. After that, any future loads, I will just check and make sure my pressures at the port are atleast that amount.

There is NO published data for what I am doing. there are a couple of others out there doing the same thing with the same cartridge.

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