Question regarding more powerful loadings


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Ughh
April 5, 2010, 01:59 AM
Hello I'm fairly new and my first book that I am now starting is Speers Manual no. 14.

Over time I've read some people say how they have chronod their .45 acp rounds up to 1200 fps. That's pretty fast. This manual I'm reading made no reference to a loading that even reached 1100 fps, and that was under the 'higher power' column (the book has two columns, one for lower power/velocity, and one for higher power/velocity).

What I'm asking is how did you guys get .45 acp to go higher to 1200 fps? You didn't read it in a manual, I'm assuming. Did you guys just keep throwing in more grams of powder on top of the book's suggestions, then hit the chrono? Silly trial and error??

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ArchAngelCD
April 5, 2010, 02:49 AM
I don't recall seeing anyone claim 1,200 fps from a .45 Auto but that doesn't mean it didn't happen. If it did happen I'm guessing that was with a 185gr bullet, not a 230gr bullet.

Buffalo Bore claims only 1,150 fps from their 185gr +P ammo but DoubleTap does claims 1,225 fps from a 5" 1911 with a 185gr JHP bullet.

Are you sure you didn't read the 1,200 fps claims with a .45 Colt round instead of a .45 Auto round?

Welcome to reloading BTW, it's very addictive as I'm sure you will find out quite soon!

Ughh
April 5, 2010, 03:07 AM
well... I guess my question is: How do you make +P loadings? Or how do you make higher velocity loadings then what the book says.

Like my book, the same one, says the 9mm loadings only reaching as high as 1,150 fps. How do I go about getting 1300 fps, like the Cor-Bon +P loading, or the Black hills 115gr +P loading.

ArchAngelCD
April 5, 2010, 03:23 AM
It's very hard to duplicate "hot" loads from commercial manufacturers because they have access to powders we don't have access to. We can only use canister grade powders whereas they buy non-canister grade powders in very large lots and custom mix them until they achieve what they are looking for. They can mix the powder so the pressure stays below SAAMI specs while raising the velocities.

As for loading +P ammo, you can try to use a powder that is slow enough to raise the velocities while staying within SAAMI limits but if the data isn't available you will have to do some trail and error to do it. Most of the data available today will produce pressures which are quite a bit below the SAAMI limits. For example, the pressure limits for a standard .38 Special round are listed as 17,000 psi. Some of the data available will produce pressure of only 15,200 psi so you know you can add more powder safely even though the manual lists the 15,200 psi load as MAX. Same thing with +P loads, most are not even at standard pressure SAAMI limits. I hope I explained that well enough to make sense, if not just ask more questions...

Walkalong
April 5, 2010, 07:27 AM
How do you make +P loadings? Or how do you make higher velocity loadings then what the book says.
You don't. You stay within the guidelines. Leave the +P and high velocity loads for the experts with pressure equipment.

kestak
April 5, 2010, 07:51 AM
Greetings,

I read a few weeks/months ago in one of my gun magazine that 45 colt could be pushed to around 1200-1300 fps in Ruger firearms ONLY.

The author did not recommend that kind of load and said you have to be VERY VERY careful.

I took a look at all my reloading books and nowhere I saw a load pushing a 45ACP bullet at that speed.

as a matter of interest, I was talking to a reloading friend a couple weeks ago about using a 150-160 grains bullet in 45 ACP for increase speed. He said: use a 40 S&W because 45ACP is slow and heavy and was made to be slow and heavy.... hehehehehe :D

Thank you

Walkalong
April 5, 2010, 09:16 AM
Speer manuals have a "Ruger only" section in .45 Colt.

45ACP is slow and heavy and was made to be slow and heavy...
Yep... :)

snuffy
April 5, 2010, 01:01 PM
What we have here is a new reloader thinking that reloading is the path to making a 45 acp into a magnum. It can't be done. A 230 round nose jacketed bullet at 850 fps will out-penetrate just about anything short of a 44 mag. It's just about magic how much it will plow through. I say that to convince you to stop trying to achieve those pie in the sky velocities.

A few terminology corrections; it's grains, not grams that powder and bullets are measured in. Common use is loads, not loadings.

kestak
April 5, 2010, 01:04 PM
Greetings,

Grams instead of grains = KABOOM!!!! :what:

Thank you

243winxb
April 5, 2010, 01:20 PM
1200fps in a 45acp. :confused: Check Hodgdons data. 155gr lswc bullets, they list 1135fps :uhoh: KABOOM See Kabooms here > http://www.photobucket.com/joe1944usa Many factory advertised velocity is not the true fps if you would run it over a chronograph.

Beelzy
April 5, 2010, 01:26 PM
Ahhh, Grasshopper.......More power does not a more accurate bullet make.

Do not cross the threshold between handloading and lunacy.......it's never a good ending.

rcmodel
April 5, 2010, 01:34 PM
There is no possible way to get 1,200 FPS out of a .45 ACP, even in a revolver, without it blowing up. The case is just not big enough to hold the necessary large dose of slow magnum type powder to do it.

With the available case capacity, and all the medium burn rate powder that would fit, pressure necessary for 1,200 FPS would be well off the charts.

If you want 1,200 safely, buy a 10mm pistol.

rc

kestak
April 5, 2010, 01:44 PM
Greetings,


Source American handgunner May/June 2010 Page 61:

.38 special, 150-160 hard cast lead
Bulleyes 3.0 grains 750 fps
Unique 4.5 grains 900 fps
2400 11 grains 1150 fps

The last load is to be shot ONLY in 357 magnum or .38-44 type revolvers (like S&W model 23).

Food for tought: With a 160 grains bullet , you can't get to 1200 fps with a "bullet" that can go (i.e.: designed) easilly to 1300 fps in 357 magnums... 45ACP was never designed that way....NEVER.

Thank you

NCsmitty
April 5, 2010, 02:07 PM
If you want 1,200 safely, buy a 10mm pistol.

Amen to that.

If you're shooting a 1911 style, it doesn't take long to loosen one up if you shoot +P constantly. Keep it around 850fps with the right powders and let the big 230gr bullet do it's thing and the pistol will last.
Do not fall into the newbie pitfall and abuse your firearm because you heard someone say that they did it with their gun.



NCsmitty

dmazur
April 5, 2010, 03:33 PM
Another idea is Clark Custom's .460 Rowland conversion kit -

http://www.clarkcustomguns.com/rowland.htm

This requires a replacement barrel, springs, full-length guide rod. The barrel has a comp so the gun will survive more than a few rounds. Clark doesn't recommend it except for a few 1911 frames. Check yours to see if it is listed.

.460 Rowland brass is also special, as it is stronger and slightly longer (to handle the pressure and so that you can't accidentally chamber one in a standard .45 ACP barrel.)

Standard dies for .45 ACP can be used to reload .460 Rowland.

I'm not sure why someone would do this, unless they had such an aversion to .44 Mag revolvers and needed the power / penetration in a 1911 platform.

However, it is a way to get past 1200 fps.

Ughh
April 5, 2010, 08:11 PM
So how does the ammo manufacturers make +P loads then??

Arkansas Paul
April 5, 2010, 08:38 PM
It's very hard to duplicate "hot" loads from commercial manufacturers because they have access to powders we don't have access to. We can only use canister grade powders whereas they buy non-canister grade powders in very large lots and custom mix them until they achieve what they are looking for. They can mix the powder so the pressure stays below SAAMI specs while raising the velocities.


That's how ammo manufactorers make +P loads. It was covered very well in post #4.

Ughh
April 6, 2010, 01:17 AM
And we can't make mixtures ourselves? Granted it's dangerous, but the question still stands.

bds
April 6, 2010, 01:39 AM
So how does the ammo manufacturers make +P loads then?
Manufacturers have test equipments that us consumer level reloaders/handloaders simply do not have access to. Just because we have high dollar consumer grade chronos, scales and calipers, it does not mean all of our equipment is performing at industrial/scientific level of accuracy - there are too many variables that influence our instrumental measurements such as sunlight reflection varying velocity measurements off the chrono.

I load to 10%, 5%, and sometimes 3% less max published data to give me that margin of safety because I know the consumer level equipment I use have margin of error rate that most of us do not factor into our day-to-day reloading practice. The manufacturers use precise scientific instrumentation that are kept in protected environment/cases and precisely calibrated to ensure accuracy of measurements. They can push the limits of various components used while exactly knowing that they have not exceeded the safety levels - We simply cannot guarantee that with the rough equipment/reloading environment we have.

And we can't make mixtures ourselves? Granted it's dangerous, but the question still stands.

For one, we lack the "serious" testing/pressure monitoring equipments and isolated lab/test ranges to carefully tweak the handloading variables using new components. Some of these labs don't even use regular guns for these tests - they use special barreled fixtures. Most of us do not have a lab to examine chemical composition structures of the powders' burn characteristics.

If you dare start mixing different burn rate powders (which no one on THR would endorse), you are definitely on your own in risking bodily injury and equipment breakage. I have seen too many guns blow up and hands/arms injured. Please don't do it.

There are plenty of near duplicate factory JHP load recipes available online/forums (and posters came back from the range tests with all of their body parts intact to talk about it) - I would recommend you examine these recipes first.

Hello I'm fairly new
Sorry for the long post, but we were all newbies at one time and I will admit I have pushed the limits of my reloads in early days with too many "Boy, that was close - I won't do that again" moments. Start with published load data and enjoy the hobby of reloading, safely. In time, you may find how far you can push the limits without being unsafe.

IMHO

Oyeboten
April 6, 2010, 02:32 AM
Yes...this is the problem...we as regular people have no equipment for testing the interior Pressures during interior Ballistic schedules/periods.

We have no real way to decide the relationship of conjectural pressures or their durations, with the elastic limits of the specific Arm in question...other than to err on the side of remaining well enough below them.

FPS determined with a Chronograph will not allow us to really tell what the pressures were, even if we thought we knew their status for lesser power published Loads and their lesser FPS or lighter or differing Bullet.


We can read published data which may include supposed pressures attributed to a given cartridge, with a given volume of a given powder, a given Primer, with a given weight and kind of Bullet, in a given Barrel groove or land diameter and length...and, try and extrapolate from there as for what managing the variables will do...


But, if upping a charge by very much, and or increasing Bullet kind or weight with an increased charge, extrapolate or predict or guess wrong, and, you may bulge or burst the Barrel, or ruin the whole Gun, and possibly hurt one's self or by-standers.

Study the variables - and all of this comes fairly clear.


Calculated risks by degree, are best if the degree in these cases remains modest.

kestak
April 6, 2010, 06:58 AM
Greetings,

And we can't make mixtures ourselves? Granted it's dangerous, but the question still stands.

No! No! No! :banghead:

Don't even suggest that! Hornady experts spent 3 years to develop Superformance ammunition with a secret powder mix. They have litterally hundreds of hour/men experience with millions in R&D and they were about to get safely "only" 100 fps on rifle ammunition. What more evidences do you want not to do that kind of sutff????? :what:

Thank you

243winxb
April 6, 2010, 08:06 AM
So how does the ammo manufacturers make +P loads then?? Edit Alliant powder guide no longer lists +P loads, using the +P. In the new guide the "Power Pistol" powder loadings are the old +P loads. Order a free printed copy here. http://www.alliantpowder.com/resources/catalog.aspx

Arkansas Paul
April 6, 2010, 08:58 AM
And we can't make mixtures ourselves?


Sure you can make mixtures yourself.
As soon as I get tired of having two good hands, two good arms and two good eyes, I'll give it a whirl. I'm kind of fond of them for now though, so I'll just stick to proven load data from reputable manuals. :banghead:

You're asking very irresponsible questions on a forum that promotes responsibility and safety. If you're trying to get people to tell you that it's okay to act stupid with guns and loads, you're going to be dissapointed here. And I don't care if speaking that bluntly hurts your feelings. It is flat out STUPID to go mixing powders in your garage, trying to get an extra 200 fps.

I realize that you're fairly new. I am too in fact. It is great that you're interested in handloading, but if you aren't willing to go by the book, then buy factory ammo and find another hobby. You'll live longer.

Sport45
April 6, 2010, 09:11 AM
And we can't make mixtures ourselves?

I don't think te manufacturers are actually mixing different powders, the mixing is all done before the granules are formed so they have different powder formulas that aren't available in canisters. If you want to buy a rail car full you could probably get some.

I don't endorse trying what I am about to mention. I don't do this and neither should anyone else!

If you mix 1 lb of W231 and 1lb of W296 you'll have 2 lb of a 50-50 mixture of the two. but who's to say that 20gr of the stuff contains 10 gr of W231 and 10gr of W296. A true 50-50 mixture of the two may be a sweet load in your gun where a 90% W296 and 10% W231 might leave a bullet stuck in the bore and 90% W231 and 10% W296 might give you a nickname like "stubby".

rcmodel
April 6, 2010, 11:02 AM
It may not apply to the .45 ACP, but in many cases with .38 Spec., 9mm, etc, you will find loads listed in reloading manuals that exceed factory +P velocity without reaching +P pressure.

And it's not the pressure of +P you want to duplicate, it's the extra velocity of +P you are after.
So if you can get it at standard pressure, so much the better.

As for your elusive goal of 1,200 FPS in a .45 ACP?

Nobody is loading a factory loaded +P that fast.
And no reloader is either, unless they are foolishly doing it at well over safe +P pressures.

rc

ScratchnDent
April 6, 2010, 12:18 PM
I trust there is good reason when the experts and professionals list any given load as "Maximum, Never Exceed". Blowing up a gun, injuring myself, or worse, someone standing next to me at the range, just is not worth the risk.

cheygriz
April 6, 2010, 01:30 PM
You can safely load +P ammo.

Just follow the manual EXACTLY!

We can't measure pressure directly, but a good indicator is case life.

If I work up to a "hot" load in 9mm +P (for example) and the primer pockets start to loosen after 2 or 3 loadings, I consider that load to have too much pressure.

If I can reload the same case 5 or 6 times, I feel comfortable with the pressure levels.

I've found that by carefully selecting the powder, I can often exceed factory +P velocity at less than maximum charge weight, and load a case 10 or more times.

243winxb
April 6, 2010, 06:40 PM
http://www.handgunsmag.com/ammunition/demystplusp_0306-7/ Some firearms can not shoot +P ammo.

Ughh
April 6, 2010, 07:08 PM
It may not apply to the .45 ACP, but in many cases with .38 Spec., 9mm, etc, you will find loads listed in reloading manuals that exceed factory +P velocity without reaching +P pressure.

And it's not the pressure of +P you want to duplicate, it's the extra velocity of +P you are after.
So if you can get it at standard pressure, so much the better.
rc

Exactly.... I'm after velocity. My book makes no mention of high velocity rounds, except only under the .40 S&W, and when only considering the 3 mainstream semi auto rounds.
So how do i achieve high velocity with my 9mm without raising pressure, as what you're referring to.??

Ughh
April 6, 2010, 07:11 PM
You can safely load +P ammo.

Just follow the manual EXACTLY!

We can't measure pressure directly, but a good indicator is case life.

If I work up to a "hot" load in 9mm +P (for example) and the primer pockets start to loosen after 2 or 3 loadings, I consider that load to have too much pressure.

If I can reload the same case 5 or 6 times, I feel comfortable with the pressure levels.

I've found that by carefully selecting the powder, I can often exceed factory +P velocity at less than maximum charge weight, and load a case 10 or more times.
How?? What powder are you talking about/using?

What velocity did you achieve with your 9mm?

243winxb
April 6, 2010, 07:23 PM
Ughh, go to Hodgdon http://data.hodgdon.com/main_menu.asp Pick the caliber you want to load for. This site has 3 different brands of powders. Pick the one that gives you top velocity with the components listed. Use the starting load and work up the powder charge. Look for top velocity with lowest pressure.

FROGO207
April 6, 2010, 11:00 PM
Keep in mind that FASTER is most often NOT most accurate. The variables that are at play allow you to taylor (tune) the round for max accuracy in YOUR particular firearm. What is dead on in one of mine may not even work at all in yours. That is why it is so important to start 10% below max grains and "work up" to what is best for your own firearm. I don't think anyone on this or any other site is good enough to give you the "perfect" load without any working up involved. IMO you have to do a little experimentation yourself to get to that sweet spot. You may get away with using someone else's data and it may work OK but is it the best choice----likely not, safe if under max? yes but are you willing to let it be just OK.:uhoh: Not me, I will take the time to do it well.:D

bds
April 6, 2010, 11:05 PM
So how do i achieve high velocity with my 9mm without raising pressure, as what you're referring to?

= WARNING = I do not endorse the following, but posting for educational purposes only.

Ughh, if you are simply trying to get higher velocity without raising the pressure, you can lighten the 115 grain FMJ bullet by removing lead from the exposed base while using the fastest velocity published max load data. Precise "conical" removal of the base would provide the most stable platform for expanding gas to push against the bullet base with equal pressure.

100gr bullet will be faster than 115gr bullet shot with the same amount of powder charge.

How light can you go? That depends on the physical structure of the bullet type you are using before it begins to deform when you are seating the bullet.

How much can you proportionally increase the powder charge to make up for the decrease in bullet weight? Ahhhhh, this is where the math and precision instruments come to play and I can't comment.

= WARNING = This was posted for educational purposes only.

bds
April 6, 2010, 11:13 PM
Ughh, how about 1,700 fps?

You can also use commercially available lighter "frangible" bullets (compressed clay or metallic powder) to obtain higher velocities (71gr-100gr 9mm bullets):

Accutec USAŽ Ultra-FrangibleŽ R2X2 Brand Projectiles (71g-83gr) : 9mm HP 71gr 1700 fps - http://www.accutecusa.com/specs.htm

SinterFire Frangible (75gr-100gr): http://www.sinterfire.com/components.html#standard_duty

Redneck with a 40
April 6, 2010, 11:17 PM
I don't mess with hot loads, why bother? Its hard on the gun, hard on the brass, not as accurate, more recoil. What's the appeal? 100 fps isn't going to make a damn bit of difference out of a pistol anyway. I load in the middle of the load range, its been working great.:)

bullseye308
April 6, 2010, 11:51 PM
Why is it that you feel you need more speed? What is it that you are after that a slower bullet won't achieve?

Most of the time your most accurate round will be at the middle of the chart as far as speed goes. Almost anyone here will tell you that as speed increases accuracy decreases.

I load my 9mm just under 1000 fps and can change the sex of a mosquito from across the room.:what: Bump up the speed and I might miss the tv. :(

Let us know why you need the speed and we'll see how close you can safely get to it. What components do you have available to you, and which firearm do you plan to use to test these loads in? Answer these and we will have a better understanding of your goals and the limits of the firearm.

cheygriz
April 6, 2010, 11:57 PM
I load mostly 9MM for pistol. SAAMI spec loads are very low pressure compared to the "standards" of the rest of the world.

Pick a slow powder like HS-6, AAC#7 or Herco, and work up until you see pressure signs, then back off.


My 115 grainers make 1350-1375 easily. Factory +p makes 1200-1225. +P+ makes 1300-1325 My primers don't flatten and I can load the case multiple times.


for .38, and .45, I follow the +P recipes in the manuals pretty much, although if you're careful you can use a slower powder and exceed them a small amount.


My 185 +P .45s factory Golden Sabres barely make 1100 in my 1911. Still FAR superior to the 230 pumpkin rollers in my opinion, but nothing to write home about.


My handloadeded 185s make 1150. Not enough difference to spit at. If I could safely make 1250, I'd go for it in a heartbeat, but I haven't been able to do it.

An interesting experience is to look at the difference between the max loads of new manuals, and 25 year old manuals. :evil: The powder formulation hasn't changed. :banghead:

The pressure hasn't changed. :banghead: And the steel of the newer guns is even better. :)

But the newer lawyers have changed! :mad::eek::mad:

rcmodel
April 7, 2010, 12:53 PM
As have the newer transducer pressure measuring equipment that measures peak chamber pressure all the way. The old copper crusher method they used to use didn't tell all the details.

Much of the old data was not even pressure tested in lab equipment.
My old Speer manuals used actual guns to test loads, and many loads they published were off the charts in pressure test equipment today.

BTY: This is a learning forum which gets a lot of traffic from new reloaders seeking advice.
I personally think it is ill advised to tell them to ignore newly published data and just go for it until they see pressure signs.

Max allowable pressure for most handgun calibers is well below where you would be able to see pressure signs until you were already way past safe limits.

And many of these new reloaders wouldn't recognize a pressure sign if it jumped up and bit them on the azz.

rc

cheygriz
April 7, 2010, 04:31 PM
Well, RC you're certainly entitled to your opinion.

And it's worth as much, or as little as anyone else's opinion.

Walkalong
April 7, 2010, 06:14 PM
I have to agree with rc, and many others who posted similar views. Newbies need to stick with loads in manuals and not try to push the limits.

Experienced reloaders can do that to their hearts content for all I care, but I would never suggest it to new relaoders. I don't think it is responsible to do so. AC

cheygriz
April 7, 2010, 06:34 PM
I didn't suggest disregarding the manuals. I simply said that the newer manuals are written more to please the corporate lawyers than the ballistic people in the labs.

John Wayne
April 7, 2010, 06:36 PM
Some manuals list load data for +P loadings. Others have standard load data exceeding the velocity for some manufacturer's "+P" ammo. The Lee load manual, for example, lists .38 special +P but not 9mm +P. Some of the 9mm loads contained therein are very fast.

Loading +P is perfectly fine as long as you're doing it in a gun made for it, and USING PUBLISHED DATA. When you start trying to bump up a standard load beyond published data thinking that you'll just end up with a "plus p" load is when you'll run into trouble.

I just started reloading recently, and came across a good piece of advice: "There are old reloaders and there are bold reloaders. There are no old bold reloaders!"

Walkalong
April 7, 2010, 06:48 PM
I didn't suggest disregarding the manuals.
Very true, but what the OP was asking how to do was much more than that.
What I'm asking is how did you guys get .45 acp to go higher to 1200 fps?
I guess my question is: How do you make +P loadings? Or how do you make higher velocity loadings then what the book says.
Like my book, the same one, says the 9mm loadings only reaching as high as 1,150 fps. How do I go about getting 1300 fps, like the Cor-Bon +P loading, or the Black hills 115gr +P loading.

1911Tuner
April 7, 2010, 06:53 PM
You don't. You stay within the guidelines.

Sound advice.

As a wise man noted:

Ther's nothing that you can prove with a handload that hasn't already been proven, and the pressure required to accelerate a 200 grain bullet to 1200 fps in 4.1 inches of rifling is more than sufficient to blow your eyeballs through the back of your head.

jfh
April 7, 2010, 07:14 PM
cheygriz, I agree that the latest manuals are edited with corporate liability in mind as much as with making available accurate information about pressures to the reloading public. However, when I looked into these issues extensively two-plus years ago, I did find exactly what rc reported: while there is CYA going on, IMO, there also has been a genuine measurement-technology change in nominally the last ten years. Measurement techniques are become more standardized--e.g., pressure barrels using stress couplers--and those changes combined with ballistic analysis software have fine-tuned the findings. However, these tools' use still need to be refined and standardized. AFAICT, it's the availablility of the software--which identifies the first, second (and maybe-even-third) pressure peaks--that drives much of the adjusted recipes. I'm not wholly convinced of that testing-component's accuracy--but it is closer than anything else.

A classic example of adjusted loads are those "Speer 8" SR-4756 recipes for 38 Special. In their latest data, Hodgdon truncates the data for both 38 Special and 357 so much that the max charges are what were barely considered the start charges. The velocity measurements I got from the new data confirm these are "weird." Digging into those #8 loads includes doing a historical study of reloading journalism as well as a careful reading of 1970s quasi-technical reports of pressure-measuring techniques; it brought a wealth of information to me. Unfortunately, the most extensive public / layman's record is no longer available. I suspect that Hodgdon truncated their current reports because of those #8 discussions on the S&W forum--simply for CYA. But, 4756 does appear to have a late / third pressure spike; so their might be genuine limitations the layman cannot readily identify.

I've previously said that I consider reading "pressure signs" in reloading components to be on a par with astrological fortune-telling using goat entrails. Maybe you can do it with your very-limited range of firearms and components--but if you can, write it up; such a book will make you millions. (Note I am not being sarcastic in that suggestion--seriously, do it.)

Jim H.

LightningMan
April 7, 2010, 08:32 PM
Just for the heck of it I looked in my Hodgdon No. 26 manual, in the +P section for .45 acp and the only load that comes close to 1200 fps is using a 185 gr. JHP. This load uses 10grs of HS6, that will get you 1162 fps out of a 5" test barrel, with a CUP at 19,900. Even with that said, I doubt you will achieve that velocity with this loading, as it seems they always get more fps out of test barrels rather than shooting it out of a real gun.

bds
April 7, 2010, 08:37 PM
it seems they always get more fps out of test barrels rather than shooting it out of a real gun.

I have wondered about this too in the past. I think what may contribute to this is the fact that the manufacturers used full length 5" barrels mounted to SOLID machine rest or blocks that doesn't move compared to us shooters' SOFT hands/arms recoiling back when we fire our pistols. Maybe??? :rolleyes:

Walkalong
April 7, 2010, 09:00 PM
Some of the energy cycles the gun. Not so in a test barrel. Some manuals use test barrels longer than the normal gun barrel as well. Seems silly to me. Maybe it makes their powders look good.

Sport45
April 7, 2010, 10:00 PM
The manuals are also written so that the published loads will be safe in ALL firearms they might be used in. When you do your own load development you are testing the limits of YOUR gun, not just the brass. For instance, it would be easy to work up a .38 special load in a Redhawk that would show no pressure signs. That same load would likely turn your Model 36 into a grenade.

Ughh
April 7, 2010, 10:52 PM
So when it says 'Start Charge', that means that it is a light-recoil and low velocity charge?

And when it says 'Maximum Charge' and has those higher velocity, then it means +P? Or is does +P negate velocity and means only high pressured??

Ridgerunner665
April 7, 2010, 11:10 PM
I think the OP has been reading the 45 Super threads....the 45 Super "looks" like a normal 45acp round (they are identical in appearance)...but it ends there.

45acp +P = 23,000 psi
45 Super = 28,000 psi

45 Super will push 185 grain bullets right at 1,400 fps, and 200 grain bullets at 1,200 fps, and 230 grain bullets at over 1,000 fps.

Most 45acp chambered pistol require some modification to stand extra abuse of the 45 Super.

I have a Springfield XD that I use for my 45 Super loads...

bds
April 7, 2010, 11:21 PM
So when it says 'Start Charge', that means that it is a light-recoil and low velocity charge?
Ughh, it would be lighter recoil and lower velocity than max charge load that was "tested" to provide high enough pressure for reliable ignition and consistent chamber pressure for accuracy. But you also need to note the type of bullet profile used and the OAL length indicated for the start charge because how deep the bullet is seated directly affect chamber pressure (Example - For the same bullet, longer OAL will give you lower chamber pressure and lower velocity).

And when it says 'Maximum Charge' and has those higher velocity, then it means +P? Or is does +P negate velocity and means only high pressured??
More charge will result in higher velocity. The Maximum Charge (also known as DO NOT EXCEED CHARGE) with the indicated OAL for that particular type of bullet profile is CRITICAL because exceeding this charge/OAL will result in too much chamber pressure. Instead of pushing the bullet down the barrel, the higher pressure may cause the chamber/barrel to explode.

As to +P rating, someone else could probably do a better job of explaining. My limited take is that +P rating started with older 38 Special round that had an established "factory" pressure for the given strength of revolver frame (this did not mean the "factory" pressure exceeded the case pressure max rating). As some stronger revolver frame was introduced, ammunition manufacturer could increase the powder charge because the stronger frames were able to withstand the higher pressure - they called these rounds +P (and later +P+ for loads for even stronger frames).

Unlike older revolvers that had large differing frame strength and separate cylinder/barrel, modern semi auto pistols have integrated chamber and barrel, thus able to withstand higher chamber pressure. Although there was an established "standard" factory pressure rating of "P" for earlier 9mm pistols, heavier designed submachine guns like MP5 are able to withstand higher than standard pressure for 9mm - these rounds received the +P designation and were not meant to be fired in a pistol.

When newer 9mm pistols like Glocks came to market, they were designed and built to withstand the higher +P 9mm ammunition meant for submachine guns. If you look at older pistol manuals, they indicated whether they were rated to +P 9mm or not. Nowdays, most manufacturers build their pistols to +P pressures and the designation became less important as most factory JHPs like Golden Saber and Ranger SXT (Black Talon) are in +P pressure/velocity. This is the reason why you see +P 9mm ammunition and some reloaders loading past the Max Load Data (but the published load data must be SAFE for all 9mm pistols old and new and indicates lower charges).

As to reloading past the Max Load Data pressures, it is the general rule among the reloading community that Max Never Exceed charges/OAL are never exceeded because many of us have seen the results of exploding guns with injuries to shooters. Because pressure buildup and spiking occurs more readily past the max charge loads, as a rule, I use 10%-5% (for 115gr 9mm FMJ reloads, I go up to 3%) less max load data (lead bullets are always loaded to 10%-5% less max).

I hope this helps. Perhaps someone could explain the +P issue better.

Ol` Joe
April 7, 2010, 11:28 PM
So when it says 'Start Charge', that means that it is a light-recoil and low velocity charge?

And when it says 'Maximum Charge' and has those higher velocity, then it means +P? Or is does +P negate velocity and means only high pressured??

Start charge may or may not be a low velocity load depending on the powder used. Most pistol loads in the 38 spcl/45acp pressure range will only see about 100 fps difference between a starting and max load. The pressures may vary quite a bit more then you would think though for that little bit of velocity.
+P means just that, +P!
Max loads are loads that develop SAAMI maximum pressures or as close to it as the lab could get without exceeding them using that set of components. +P is a load that exceeds the SAAMI or CIP pressure standards and is a higher level then some firearms are designed to handle. A 9mm SAAMI max pressure is 35,000 psi SAAMI all manufactures load to this level and reloading data considers this as max. +P 9mm pressure is 38,500psi.

cheygriz
April 8, 2010, 02:50 PM
Two things.

While I completely agree that the newer pressure measuring equipment is more accurate, the ballistic lab boys back even in the thirties were primarily concerned with SAFETY, SAFETY AND MORE SAFETY!

There are some pressure signs that an experienced reloader can (and should) look for. IMHO, case life with a partuicular load is one of the more reliable. Very large differences between chronographed velocity and "book" velocity is another.

Any maximum load, even a maximum from a "new" book, should be worked up to from below very carefully!

9MM.

American 9MM has been loaded WAY, WAY down from the factories from day one. (Didn't want Glisentis to blow up :D) The so-called "submachinegun" ammo brought back from WW2 was standard pressure European ammo with a harder thicker primer cup for use in fixed firing pin, open bolt submachineguns.

Our current +P is European "standard." Most guns today, even including American manufacture 9MMs are specifically designed for so-called +P.
The 9MM NATO, used by U.S. armed forces is European standard, or +P by American standards.

My first Beretta, and Glock 17 wouldn't function reliability with White Box or UMC, until after several hundred rounds of "break in." But they functioned flawlessly with departmental issue +P+.

Ughh
April 8, 2010, 04:24 PM
Two things.
Very large differences between chronographed velocity and "book" velocity is another.


So another Question: Would pretty much all of the rounds we test and chrono ourselves reflect a lower velocity because shooting through our own chronographs (placed a little distance afar of the muzzle) don't necessarily reflect the muzzle measurements that the factories take and put in to their books??

But essentially the load is of the same velocities if we could chrono muzzle velocity, or if the factories chronoed velocity a few inches from the muzzle end of the barrel, right??

cheygriz
April 8, 2010, 08:54 PM
There are too many variations to get exact matches. Barrel length, bore and groove diameter, ambient temperature, powder lot#, etc etc etc.

What I meant by large variations, is if several different manual show 950 to 1000 FPS, and my load cronos 1500 FPS, Big red flag there. OTOH, if my load makes 1050 to 1100, I may, or may not have an over pressure load. Need to look at other indicators.

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