[Kestrel]

I'm looking for wadcutters for J-frame carry. Is there a company that produces wadcutters that are hotter than the standard ~750 fps? Also, what about something a little heavier than 148 gr?

ALSO - what about wadcutters that are cast/harder than swaged ones?

This would be for +P and non +P rated revolvers. I'm not sure how hot you can go before you're into +P, though.

Thanks for any help,
Steve

[George Hill]

Who makes hot .38 special wadcutters?

Any handloader.

[P95Carry]

Steve ........ I have never been aware of any real hot FWC's on the market ... certainly I doubt much heavier than the 148 tho 158 is a popular weight for SWC's. Just ain't seen em!

For most part - as George states .. this is sorta stuff the handloader will generate ... and probably not factory. I would personally use hard cast and not swaged ... FWC's have a large bearing surface and so leading IMO is problematic even at non mag' velocities with lead, even coated.

I did way back load target velocity rounds with 158 hollow base FWC's .... in front of 2.7 grns Bullseye ... but not a very potent load .. these were made up with crimp over bullet nose... very accurate tho at up to 25 yds.

[444]

Loading full wadcutters faster than target velocities ususally doesn't end up with good results. I have heard of people loading hollow based wadcutters backwards with a gas check but have never tried this myself.
LBT makes a mould for a bullet that is essentially a long wadcutter that if cast hard would give you basically the same thing.
IMO, it is a mistake to focus strictly on expanding bullets in the short barreled revolvers. A wide meplat like a full wadcutter has proven to be a VERY succesful bullet for hunting. It cuts a decent wound channel and also gives you very good penetration.

[tbeb]

Village Metalworks. Web site is http://safestop.net/

They sell a 148 gr. wadcutter that does 800-850 fps from a 2" barrel. The bullet is seated out from the case, and the bullet has a "V" notch in it. Bullet has a sharp edge.

They also sell a non +P 148 gr. wadcutter that does not have the "V" notch, and it does something like 700 fps from a 2" barrel. Bullet has a sharp edge.

As I understand it, they are working on a non +P wadcutter with a cupped face and a sharp edge.

[Hal]

Wadcutters are target loads---> Accuracy usually falls off as velocity increases---->Target loads are usually geared towards the highest possible accuracy---->ergo. Target loads ie wadcutters are downloaded to produce the highest possible accuracy. the wadcutter design of a full faced bullet is meant to cut a sharp plug out of a paper target.



use semi wadcutters - - or hey,,,better yet use the +P LSWCHP <-- proven defensive load

[WheelMan]

I remember somebody on TFL talking about a jaceted wadcutter bullet available from somebody, you could load that as fast as you please without leading.

[RON in PA]

This question arose because over at ammolab.com they claim (based on 4 layer denim gelatin tests) that wadcutters are best for .38 special snubbies because hollowpoint ammo doesn't open up at the low velocities generated. Wadcutters are supposed to penetrate sufficiently while cutting a decent wound channel and offering good control.

Me, I'll stick with the old FBI load. It gives good penetration and while it may not open up all the time, it's going to open up some of the time.

[tbeb]

The Safestop 148 gr. is covered with copper. (It will not lead the barrel.)

[Jim March]

Ammolabs is wrapping their jello in 4 layers of denim. I would argue that's excessive.

Another issue: in their pic of the "failed" 158+P lead hollowpoint, the hollow opened up all the way to the basic caliber...so at a minimum, it was AS effective a shape as a full wadcutter but moving at more than 100 - 150fps faster.

Sorry, that makes NO sense whatsoever.

The Village Metalworks load is probably the hottest wadcutter sold today. In the "V-cut version", one "petal" tends to come off causing what's left to tumble. Interesting concept...

[Wil Terry]

38 Special ammunition. The full charge wadcutter load flew at 850FPS and the single box I tested was superlatively accurate.
I have never seen a single 38 Special sixgun nor auto pistol that didn't shoot it's very best with full charge wadcutter handloads, NOT A SINGLE ONE, guys!!
PS: the box of Remington 38 full charge wadcutters was loaded by them about two days after WWII ended I do believe.

[BluesBear]

Ammolabs is wrapping their jello in 4 layers of denim. I would argue that's excessive.
Maybe, maybe not.
Up here in Seattle people ofter wear denim jackets and vests almost year-round. The area around the buttons on such jackets are double layered denim. So if the jacket is buttoned there will be 4 layers of denim running up and down dead center of mass.
Also the area where the pockets are located are at least double layer.

Then you factor in the jackets and vests made of heavier material and the fabric thickness becomes an important variable to consider.

So is the test excessive? Only if you are only planning on shooting naked people.

I can't seem to find any references to any shootings (except with cameras)occuring on a nude beach anywhere. :evil:

[Phil in Seattle]

Up here in Seattle people ofter wear denim jackets and vests almost year-round

Fleece! We need a test down with jello wrapped in that fleece crap Seattlites seem unable to leave the house without.

Howdy neighbor.

[Kestrel]

This question did NOT arise from anything at ammolab.com (I've not even seen whatever they say about .38 ammo). This question arose because I wanted to know what COMMERCIAL company might make a hotter loaded wadcutter.

Steve

[Majic]

A properly sized bullet of sufficent hardness and good lube can be driven at magnum speeds without leading. I have shot 357 and 44 WC at magnum speeds with no problem. Bullet speed greatly reduces at long range due to the big frontal area plowing thru the air, but they are no less accurate than any other design(just alot of drop).
Most commercial ammo makers load wadcutters for target use only and keep velocities down and consistant. They use swaged hollow base WC and these bullets should not be driven fast as the pressure can tear the skirt of the base losing all accuracy.

[cpileri]

Been following this thread for a few days.
Does it need to be a specific weight?

Cuz if you dont mind a lighter weight projectile, just take a box of factory 158gr loads (+P or non-+P, I dunno) and a fine toothed hacksaw and slowly saw off the tapered part of the round, may need to go flush with the case mouth, to make your own wadcutter.

Use a hand saw since the vibration of a high-rpm dremel tool or whatever will degrade or possible even ignite the powder. In any case, the projectile will get too hot also risking the powder (and your fingers).

Will need to chronohraph them, and see if they are now too fast to hold together in 'fleshy' media.

But it gets the broad meplat of a WC, and doesn't increase the bearing surface of the projectile, and pressures wont be over max.

Hey, just an idea.

ALSO,
I can across some original hydra-shok projectiles: 148gr wadcutters, with one flat end and one end a hollow cavity with the characteristic post in the center. Although mineare loose projos, the original was loaded to abt 850fps so i hear.
I can point you to the guy who has some for sale if you want.
C-

C-

[Jim March]

Cpileri: that ain't a bad idea. Start with any of the 158+P LSWC-HPs, esp. Winchester or Remington.

One thing on the to-do list if doing that: wash your hands in cold water afterwards, 'cuz you've got to handle the lead quite a bit...

[Al Thompson]

Atlanta Arms loads a 148 FMJ WC. :) Not sure on velocity, but it shoots good. No web site of phone number available. :(

[BluesBear]

But how accurately can you trim the nose off of that SWC? Remember a grain ain't much. But a few of them is enough difference to skew the performance.

[Hal]

Cut the bullet roughly in half and you cut the weight roughly in half. The powder charge is based on a bullet weight of 158 gr.

The heavier the bullet, the smaller the powder charge. The lighter the bullet, the heavier the powder charge. Take a powder charge,,,designed for a heavy bullet,,,and stick a light bullet on top of it and the velocity will go down not up. Pressure will go down too. Prolly to the point where there isn't enough to seal the case mouth.

500fps is a pretty optomistic figure BTW. Depending on the powders/bullets involved, it might fall as low as 200 fps. -ie: low enough to "Stick" it in the barrel.
(been there-done that with a light charge of Win 231)

[BluesBear]

:what:

DO WHAT?


:rolleyes:

[Hal]

Scroll up a few -
they're talking about cutting a 158 gr flush with the case mouth.

cpileri-
says this:
Cuz if you dont mind a lighter weight projectile, just take a box of factory 158gr loads (+P or non-+P, I dunno) and a fine toothed hacksaw and slowly saw off the tapered part of the round, may need to go flush with the case mouth, to make your own wadcutter

Jim March -
says this:
Cpileri: that ain't a bad idea. Start with any of the 158+P LSWC-HPs, esp. Winchester or Remington.

I says this:
not a real good idea - nothing really dangersous about it though - - unless of course you go around thinking you've made the perfect defensive round with testing it out. I downloaded some lightweights using 158 gr data before as gallery type loads. * shrug* no biggie - all it did was make black cases/shoot like a rainbow- eventually I stuck one in the barrell of my Marlin. {{{blech}}}(the load not the Marlin)

K - I can see where it might be misleading 'cause of the last sentance. What I did was setup to load .38 spl 158 gr RNL using Win 231 for ~ 800 fps. (4 or so gr IIRC)I got curious what would happen if I switched over to using the same powder charge, but stepped down to a lighter slug. IIRC, I used a cast lead .375 cal. from my 1851 Navy I sized down to .357 by forcing it through the cylinder of my Blackhawk. It miced out at .357 so I was good to go. These things weigh in @ somwhere around 95 to 100 gr. (I'll dig one out, set up the Hornady scale and weight it exactly if you want,,,but with company coming it may be a while)

(quick check of the Lyman manual later)
yeah, here we go. Iss been a while but now that I see it.--- I used to load .38spl w/158 LRN ( I bought a bulk pak of 1 or 2K) over 4.5 gr of Unique and crimped them out on the front driving band. Now I'm staring right at the Lyman 47th edition and the pic of the 158 gr RNL. If you cut that booger flush with the case mouth, you take off roughly 1/2 the weight...now backing up a couple of pages I see the 95 gr (approx 1/2 of 158 - close enough). 4.5 gr of unique under that gives mid 600's.

I'm just guessing here, but I'll bet factory ammuniton is loaded with something more akin to IMR 700X. (little faster than Unique) to get more round per pound. If ya want, ya can mosey on over to IMR's site and do some math..

...me I'm going to check on my Turkey :D (I'm the chef du jour)

[BluesBear]

Hal,

Do the math.

For example, Accurate Arms No.2 powder, .38 special, 8 3/8" barreled S&W model 14;

3.5gr will give you 850fps with a 148gr lead bullet

while

4.0gr will give you 868fps with a 158gr lead bullet

so what you're saying is that

4.0gr with a 148gr lead bullet will give you a velocity of LESS than 868fps?? or less than 850fps??


or


using Accurate Arms N100 powder in the same gun;

4.1gr = 1031fps w/ 125JHP

3.9gr = 933fps w/ 140JHP

Now according to your theory you would get a lower velocity with the lighter bullet?


Your theory doesn't add up.


edited to add - the above info is from the 2001 Accurate Reloaders Guide and are the maximim loads listed.
Caution: Neither the writer, The High Road, nor the staff of THR assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this reloading information.

[Hal]

Your theory doesn't add up. Ain't my theory it's handloading law.

bullet weight up/powder charge down.

(check the pressures too)

[BluesBear]

Sorry Hal,

While it is true that you cannot take a maximun charge for a light bullet and substitute a heavier bullet without raising pressures.

You CAN, however, take the maximun charge for a heavy bullet and substitue a lighter bullet without raising pressures.



One final example, also taken from the 2001 Accurate Reloaders Guide;


1911A1 - Accurate No.5 powder


8.7gr with a 230gr bullet gives 927fps

Guess what happens when you substitute a lighter 200gr bullet with the same 8.7 gr powder charge?


The velocity increases to 1025 ! (Imagine that?)


Perhaps your "law" was ammended when you weren't looking? :D



Caution: Neither the writer, The High Road, nor the staff of THR assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this reloading information.

[Jim March]

Well that's why I said to start with a hollowpoint version. That way, the nosecone you're cutting off doesn't really weigh all that much...I'd have to check, but I doubt it's more than 20 - 25 grains of the total projectile weight.

Another interesting possibility: Paco Kelly has been making and selling tools that allow you to alter the nosecone shape of loaded 22LR rounds...with excellent results.

Well...seems to me you could take a steel BB of about 28 - 30 cal (guesstimate), set it in the hollowpoint of a 158+P Winchester or Remmie and tap it down slowly and gently. Grease it first so it'll slip out again afterwards. What you should end up with is a fatter hollowpoint that'll start expanding sooner for snubbies.

[BluesBear]

Jim,

I had been toying with the idea of using a standard .177 BB in the nose of a Nyclad or lead HP with just a hint of Superglue to hold it in.

Seems to me that it would work like a heavy, poormans Pow'R Ball.

When the BB is driven into the cavity to start the expansion, the superglue will just pop and the BB would become a secondary projectile.

[Jim March]

Bluesbear: at least one major company (Winchester?) experimented with that in 25ACP. If I recall right, the hollowpoint behind the BB was very "deep and narrow" - the incoming ball could therefore dive way deep into the lead as the round expanded.

So, you'd have to drill out the middle with a fairly fine drill bit, and getting that hole dead center would be an issue if the projectile is already loaded. If the bullet is still a component, you could put the slug itself into a large enough drill chuck and gently spin it down onto a fixed drill bit.

You might run into legal issues too, if the BB was described as a "steel penetrator tip". Granted, at 38+P/snubbie velocities, there's no way you're going to punch through even a lower-priced yet halfway decent vest...maybe a very warm 357...

[Hal]

http://webpages.charter.net/sureshot/sureshot/38-RN-158-saeco.gifHere's a gif of a 158 gr LRN - to cut it flush, you'd remove the portion in front of the front driving band - the area behind the front driving band has a number of cutouts which reduce the weight.

Jim,
Yes, a hollow point may only be 25% (far cry from the 6%- 11% difference Bluesbear is touting as proof - I'm talking 40 to 50 % loss and he's countering with 6% --sheesh ) - - question here would be why take a known stopper like a LSWCHP and turn it into an unknown on the off chance that it "may" work? I look at it that if it DID work, all the big players would be turning them out that way. Either way, the WC design tend to hang up on the cylinder using speedloadeers, so the first 6 (5,7,8) better work as hoped for.

[BluesBear]

Hal, pay attention. I'll try make this simple.

I NEVER said that cutting the nose off of a loaded round was a good idea.
It was me that expressed whether it could be done with any consistancy.
Every bullet would have a different weight.

My opinion is that it would NOT be a good idea.


The ONLY reason that I was posting any velocity figures was to refute your blanket statement: Take a powder charge,,,designed for a heavy bullet,,,and stick a light bullet on top of it and the velocity will go down not up.
Sheesh! :rolleyes:

[Hal]

[tain't worth it]

[444]

"...at least one major company (Winchester?) experimented with that in 25ACP. If I recall right, the hollowpoint behind the BB was very "deep and narrow" - the incoming ball could therefore dive way deep into the lead as the round expanded."

If I recall, it was Winchester. On my 21st birthday I purchased a Raven in .25 ACP. Shortly thereafter I read an article in one of the gun rags about this new miricle ammo and purchased a box of it. One night I was driving home about 0230 when I saw a possum crossing the road. It was walking along slowly like possums do. I rolled down the window and rested my Raven on the rear view mirror and shot it twice right behind the front shoulder using this ammo. The possum made no indication that it was hit other than the fact that I could see it bleeding from the spot I was holding for. It just kept right on walking at exactly the same speed as it had prior to being shot. First thing in the morning I went back to where this occured and got out to look for the possum. Never found it.
This of course doesn't mean a whole lot, but I was not impressed with the cartridge or the load.