10mm velocities.


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Demitrios
April 6, 2010, 11:39 PM
How are you guys doing? I've been doing some handloading for my 10mm and have been curious about what actual velocities I'm getting, rather than the max velocities posted/printed in reloading guides. I'm using CCI large pistol primers, with 9.5/10.5/11.5 grains of blue dot powder pushing a 165 gr. copper plated bullet out of a 5" 1911 barrel. Since I don't have a chrono I was hoping you guys could give me some velocities I might be achieving and if you don't shoot what I shoot maybe you could tell me what you're chronoing with whatever loads you're using. I'm new to the reloading world and just want some examples and preferences to go by.

P.S. If you load hot I respect that but it's just not for me, I'll only go to factory spec maxes.

Edit:

It seems to me that every time a 10mm thread is started history about the Norma, the actual use for the rounds, what pistol is the best for 10mm, etc. . .

All I'm looking for is a little experience with whomever has chrono'd their own handloaded 10mm rounds and what the results were. Please let's just keep this conversation on this topic. To everyone who's helped me out so far, thank you very much.

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GJgo
April 7, 2010, 12:00 AM
I load 180gr XTP in front of AA#9 for about 1240 fps in my 5" Kimber 1911, and the same loads do around 1350 fps out of my 6.5" S&W 610. It's definitely warm but not excessive. Personally I haven't tried the 165gr offerings.

cheygriz
April 7, 2010, 12:04 AM
Out of my Glock 20, Winchester 175 Silvertips chrono 1200-1250.

Not too bad, I guess, but nothing like the 10MM was designed for. The old 10MM ammo would push a 180 at 1500, but it would blow up a damned S&W or 1911, so the ammo makers neutered it. Too bad, it was a good round for well made European guns. :o

rcmodel
April 7, 2010, 12:37 PM
but it would blow up a damned S&W or 1911,SO, exactly what gun were they loading it for then.

S&W & Colt were the only too guns made for it at the time it came out and when it was loaded to full power.

180 at 1,500 FPS factory ammo simply never existed.

The fastest ammo loaded at the time was a 170 at 1,340.
The hottest load at the time was a Norma 180 at a little over 1,200.

rc

David Wile
April 7, 2010, 02:27 PM
Hey folks,

Back in 1994 I bought a new Star Megastar (Starvel finish) in 10mm. They were imported by Interarms and were only available for a very short time before their manufacture was discontinued. The S&W and Colt pistols chambered for the 10mm at that time were simply not in the same class as the Megastar as far as being made heavy enough to handle the power of the 10mm. Comparing the Megastar and the Colt 1911 from the sides, they are about the same size. However, when looking at the two pistols from rear, the Megastar is about 1/3 larger in width than the 1911. It is a big robust pistol.

I don't remember the source for the following information any more, but I remember reading the 10mm was designed to shoot a 200 grain bullet at 1,200FPS. If I recall correctly, at that time the FBI intended to adopt the 10mm as their sidearm and theirs specs also included the 200 grain bullet at 1,200 FPS.

I generally use 180 grain cast bullets at moderate loads, and the Megastar eats those loads with very little recoil. Back in 1994 and 1995, however, I did some testing of the Megastar with the hotter 200 grain bullets at 1,200 FPS, and I can assure you those hotter loads still did not recoil or jump as much as you would feel when shooting factory .45 ACP ammo in the 1911.

Best wishes,
Dave Wile

Glock20
April 7, 2010, 03:45 PM
There are some that are most interested in max fps. Personally I find that 1150 - 1200 fps from a 180gr plated, jhp or XTP are the most accurate and they don't beat the crap out of the pistol or brass.

cheygriz
April 7, 2010, 04:05 PM
IIRC, the cartridge was designed for the Bren Ten. A gun FAR stronger than the 1911 or the S&W. The H&K MP-5 10MM will also handle heavy loads.

The Glock 20 will also outlast 2 S&Ws or 3-4 1911s using full power 10MM handloads.

What's the point of higher velocity??? POWER

The minute amount of accuracy you might gain by downloading a service cartridge in a service grade pistol is hardly worth the effort.

If you want pinpoint accuracy in a handgun, get a well tuned 1911 in .45ACP and use 185 FMJ wadcutters at 750-800 FPS.

steve4102
April 7, 2010, 06:49 PM
I shoot 180gr Zero JHP, MG JHP and Hornady XTP out of my DW CBOB and Witness Elite Match.
Max loads of Longshot, 1300 EAA, 1260 DW
Max #9, 1220 EAA, 1190 DW
Max #7, 1212 EAA, 1175 DW
Max Silhouette, 1230 EAA, 1212 DW

LeonCarr
April 7, 2010, 07:04 PM
I have a buddy with a S&W 1006 and he got 200 grain XTPs up to 1170 fps with a book maximum load of AA #7. I believe he has killed several deer and hogs with it.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

jfh
April 7, 2010, 07:20 PM
cheygriz, what characteristics of the Bren 10 make it far stronger than the S&W 1006?

Mind you, I am not doubting you--I have no way knowing as I've never handled or shot a Bren 10. But I have shot a 1006 extensively, and shot it with high-end loads--and it was a far superior 10mm in design and construction to, for example, the 1st-gen Glock 20 that blew up on me.

Jim H.

ants
April 7, 2010, 07:30 PM
Demitrios - The plated bullets I use are from Berry's. They say to keep velocity under 1200 feet per second. You might want to double check the manufacturer on those 165 grain bullets. :)

Demitrios
April 7, 2010, 09:33 PM
Ants, I took a look at the Rainier's I shoot, they say to keep it under 1,500 so I'm OK. But good looking out I appreciate it.

loadedround
April 7, 2010, 10:03 PM
I too have my doubts about the Bren Ten being stronger that the Colt Delta Elite or the Smith 1006. I bought one of the first Delta Elites that became available and put many 100's of the original hot Hornady factory ammo thru it just to get empty cases for reloading. I still have this pistol and load 180 gr JHP over Blue Dot for around 1150 fps. My pistol is as good as new, but I did replace the recoil springs about 200 rounds ago.

cheygriz
April 8, 2010, 02:21 PM
The sources that I used for the Bren Ten came from a fellow officer that owned one, and Jeff Cooper's writings (and yeah, I know I need to take anything Cooper said with a large grain of salt!:p )

RC, you are correct. My bad! :o:o

My figures for the original 10MM were in error. I did some checking and found the 1500 FPS figure was for an experimental batch of 155 grain ammo, not 180.

The original .357 Magnum S&W with 8 3/8 inch barrel shot a 158 at 1500 FPS. This leaded something awful. Jacketed pistol bullets were a rarity in this country at that time. (the 1930s)

"Softer" loads were developed later, especially when S&W started chambering the .357 in their much lighter "K" frame guns, at Bill Jordan's request. 158s today, even in an 8 3/8 incher will do well to get 1300.


Some (not all) of the folks promoting the 10MM and the Bren Ten were hoping for a duplication of the original 158 GR .357 at 1500 in a modern auto.

Sadly, neither the guns, nor the cartridge lived up to those expectations.

David Wile
April 8, 2010, 03:26 PM
Hey Griz,

I don't know about 158 grain bullets at 1,500 FPS, but I have a Megastar that will do 1,200 FPS with a 200 grain bullet, and that Megastar will pump them out with less felt recoil than the S&W and Colt 10mm pistols. I would also bet the Megastar would continue shooting those round long after the S&S and Colt 10mm pistols have shot themselves loose and silly. I don't have any experience with the Bren, but the Megastar was made to shoot the 10mm. I know Megastars are no longer made, but it was not because they could not live up to the 200 grain bullet at 1,200 FPS expectations for the 10mm. When the Clinton Administration killed the importation of the Megastar, it also killed the main demand for the gun, and Star did not have enough sales.

Best wishes,
Dave Wile

41 Mag
April 9, 2010, 06:10 PM
I am running 180 gr JHP's from my Javelina at a decent 1350fps. I can squeak out another 75 - 100fps but it throws off the accuracy more than I like.

I wished I had been able to afford one of the Longslide 45's before they went under as I would have loved to have had a matched set.

I have shot every bullet weight I have been able to get my hands on for this caliber and found the 180's a great compromise of accuracy and velocity. Using AA-9 for the 180's and #5 for the 135's, #7 for the 155 - 175's I have no issues with getting adequate velocity for either hunting or SD. With the 7" barrel I find it easily hits my needs, with out putting excessive stress on the rest of the firearm.

saturno_v
April 9, 2010, 07:30 PM
As far as I know, the S&W 1006 it's one of the strongest 10mm ever built if not the strongest.

I do not know from where someone think that the Bren Tren was even stronger.

I heard good things about the Megastar too (a safe queen in my opinion since finding parts, including magazines, it's very hard) but being thicker doesn't mean anything per se, you need to look at the quality of the material used.

gandog56
April 9, 2010, 07:46 PM
Demitrios - The plated bullets I use are from Berry's. They say to keep velocity under 1200 feet per second. You might want to double check the manufacturer on those 165 grain bullets.

I screwed up once and made a batch of .454 casull using a light load of AA#7. What I got was a shrapnel throwing machine. Heed those velocity warnings of plated bullets. They were not designed to be shot at magnum velocity.

David Wile
April 9, 2010, 09:02 PM
Hey Saturno,

Please do not think of me as and anti S&W person. I like S&W semi autos and have gone through three generations of them (59, 659, and 1006). I replaced my 59 with a 659, and I replaced my 1006 shortly after buying the Star Megastar. As much as I like S&W, if you own and use the 1006 and the Megastar 10mm pistols, I don't see how you can compare the 1006 to the Megastar in strength. In my opinion, I think S&W made a mistake with its 1006 by making it a single stack mag and keeping the weight down to the point where it was simply not designed for the power of the 10mm. Star, on the other hand, designed the Megastar to handle the power of the 10mm without shooting itself apart. There have been many manufacturers who have sold pistols chambered for calibers which were far more poweful than the frames were capable of handling. Underbuilding handguns is nothing new to the industry. In my opinion, the 1066 was designed well enough for the .45 ACP, but it was simply too light for the 10mm power.

Since I am not familiar with the Bren Ten, I certainly cannot offer any first hand knowledge on it.

I agree with you about the Megastar being something of a hangar queen since they are no longer made and the problem of finding parts. I will continue to use mine rather than let it hang on the wall for fear of breaking a part. After all, I am still using the same S&W 659 since 1986 and have yet to break any parts on it. I agree a broken part on my Megastar could put it out of action forever, but I simply will not worry about that possibility, and I will continue to use it as usual. Where you mention about the Megastar being thicker does not mean anything, I suggest the design differences between the 1006 and the megastar are characterized by the larger, heavier, and stronger design of the frame and slide. The 1006 is a big frame pistol. The Colt 1911 is a big frame pistol. Both are designed for some big bullets, but I don't think either one is really designed for the 10mm. The Megastar is an even bigger framed pistol than the 1006 and the 1911, and it was designed for the heavier powered 10mm.

I don't think anyone can suggest the quality of the Megastar can be called into question. You may not like the working of the safety, you may not like the weight, you may not like the size of the double stack grip. In my case, I have no problem with the safeties of either my 659 or my Megastar. I also have no problem with the weight or grip size of either pistols. It is just too bad that different decisions were made that resulted in the virtual disappearance of the 10mm semi auto pistols.

Best wishes,
Dave Wile

GJgo
April 9, 2010, 09:13 PM
As far as I know, the S&W 1006 it's one of the strongest 10mm ever built if not the strongest.
Funny, I'd argue that the Smith 610 (https://www.smith-wesson.com/wcsstore/SmWesson/upload/other/ProductPR/Model%20610.pdf)may be the strongest 10mm ever made. :D

saturno_v
April 10, 2010, 06:12 AM
David

I don't know the Megastar that much so I cannot comment on it. It is perfectly possible that it is even stronger than the 1006, I don't doubt that.
However, the S&W 1006 is generally considered capable of shooting full house 10mm loads basically forever, stronger than the 1911 design.

I'm very happy with mine, I bought it after my EAA Witness (the new rounded slide top model) did shoot itself apart (slide cracking) using full power 10mm ammo.
The difference in heft and "beefiness" between the two silimarly sized pistols is considerable.

And yes, the only thing that I do not really like about the 1006 is the single stack magazine.

But I had no choice (Megastar aside) if I wanted a metal frame DA/SA autoloader capable of shooting full house 10mm ammo at will.

nitetrane98
April 10, 2010, 09:56 AM
I don't know the Megastar that much so I cannot comment on it.

Hell, that's no reason!! :D This thread is rife with comments about which the person has no experience. A friend of mine is a shoe salesman and he says Megastars suck.;)

I'm still waiting to see a Colt Delta 10mm of any flavor that has been beat to death. After thousands of rounds of Corbon, Double Tap and my own concoctions my Delata Gold Cup just keeps on ticking. Bren Ten ? Give me a break, I'd like to see any BT with more than 1k rounds through it. A lot BT's hold up so well because they live in a safe and nobody has mags for them.

Sorry for the drift OP, I don't have a chrono.

cheygriz
April 10, 2010, 11:17 AM
One of the reasons the FBI dumped the 10MM in favor of the .40 was that the S&W guns "shot loose" after a few thousand full power rounds.

Just for giggles, somtime pay attention to what rides in the holsters of police officers.

You'll see mostly Glocks, but a few SIGs, HKs, Walthers, etc. But you'll look long and hard to find very many semi-auto S&Ws.

THplanes
April 10, 2010, 04:11 PM
cheygriz,

The FBI never adopted full power 10mm loads. There is some question as to whether or not they even seriously tested full power 10mm. The S&W did not get dropped because they shot loose. They were dropped because they were to big and heavy for some officers.

cheygriz
April 11, 2010, 11:58 AM
I guess we read different reports.

The 10MM was originally developed at the request of the FBI. (Even though Jeff Cooper abnd others tried to take credit for it.)

And BTW, the Bren Ten was developed from the basic design of the Czech CZ75. a design far superior to any semi-auto design ever used by S&W.

HOWARD J
April 11, 2010, 12:48 PM
I must have gotten some of that early Norma ----I purchased an early Delta Elete 10MM
After 200 rds. the slide stop broke--I was not hurt.
S*** happens---I got rid of it fast........................:eek::eek::eek::eek:

Demitrios
April 12, 2010, 11:43 AM
Once again can we please keep on topic? If you can't do that at the very least site sources to back up your claims instead of just saying, "Then Bren-Ten is better just cuz! S&W and 1911's suck cuz they shot lose and this iz why!!!" Site your sources, otherwise remember it's better to be silent and though of as a fool than to open your mouth and be proven one.

NordicG3K
April 13, 2010, 01:43 AM
I guess we read different reports.

The 10MM was originally developed at the request of the FBI. (Even though Jeff Cooper and others tried to take credit for it.)

And BTW, the Bren Ten was developed from the basic design of the Czech CZ75. a design far superior to any semi-auto design ever used by S&W.

Sorry cheygriz, but your information is wrong. The 10mm cartridge was developed in the early 80's by Dornaus & Dixon in cooperation with Norma. The original concept was a 200gn projectile at 1,000fps (which was what Cooper envisioned), but his was later increased changed to 1,200fps, and a 170gn bullet at over 1,300fps. It wasn't until D&D went under and Colt chambered the 10mm in their Delta Elite that the FBI even looked at it. They wanted something more powerful than the 9mm and were set on the .45, but felt that the testing would looked biased if they didn't include any other cartridges. The full-power 10mm loading beat all other loads, but it was found that it could be loaded down (180gns at 975fps) and still match the .45 and this was the load that was adopted. The S&W 10xx series pistols are built like tanks and are far stronger than the Brens. They can handle heavy loads just as well as the Glock 20, but can also shoot reloads and lead bullets more safely than the Glock (unless you buy a fully supported, standard rifling aftermarket barrel). The main reason the FBI dropped the S&W 1076 was due to issues with the Sig-style decocker which interfered with the trigger. It had nothing to due with the cartridge being too powerful, or the guns breaking. As I remember, the 1076s were sent back for repairs/upgrades and agents were issued Sig 9mms. This happened just at the time the .40 S&W was being introduced and so it was decided to simply switch to the Glock .40s rather than deal with the S&Ws. Agents who were already using the 1076 were allowed to keep them, but new agents got the Glocks. As for the HK MP5s in 10mm, they do not hold up well to full power loads and there have been issues with the stamped steel receivers cracking. They used two different locking pieces depending on the power level of the load. I believe the standard FBI load (for both pistol and SMG) was a Federal 190gn JHP at 1,050fps.

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