Rules of Engagement


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FourDeuce
November 25, 2003, 01:44 AM
"If the point was just to stop an attack, why not carry mace?"

Did anyone else see that little demonstration they did in Survival Guide(I think) years ago? They had a guy with a handgun facing off against someone else with some mace. They were facing about 45° away from each other. The person with the mace was just trying to defend himself. The person with the pistol was the "attacker" and was supposed to engage a target after being sprayed with the mace. The person with the mace went first. The mace holder sprayed the guy with the mace, and then the guy with the pistol pulled out his pistol, shot the target several times, then had to stop shooting because he couldn't see good enough to shoot any more. I think that demonstrates how good a defense mace is. ;)
Remember, a self-defense shooting is to make the person stop doing something(like attacking YOU). It may take killing them to make them stop, but the short-term objective is to make them stop what they're doing. You can worry later about other things, like facing them(or their survivors) in court.

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clubsoda22
November 25, 2003, 04:43 AM
I carry mace because it's all i can carry for now, but when faced with an opponent with a gun, there's no rule that says, "you get to go first, there's no wind and your attacker is at most 10 ft away"

Mace works quite well for unarmed thugs, however.

c_yeager
November 25, 2003, 05:39 AM
I agree with clubsoda. There is one HUGE problem with that scenario. If the guy with the gun is the "attacker" wouldnt his weapon be displayed first? All the demonstration proved is the if someone ATTACKS you with mace you wont be able to shoot them too easily.

BluesBear
November 25, 2003, 08:16 AM
I know a doorman at a bar in bowntown Seattle who will for a modest amount of $$$ spray OC in his mouth like it was Binaca.
:what:

Yeah he sheds 3 or 4 tears but that's about it.

Or course I saw a drunk smash a ½full Budweiser Longneck over his head once and he just smiled and said "That was refreshing".

Checkman
November 25, 2003, 09:11 AM
Mace dosen't effect everybody the same way. It also may not be that effective against individuals who are extremely intoxicated or are using drugs. It also may not work on mental subjects, but having said all that it is fairly effective on most of the population. In order to carry it I had to be sprayed with it. That was almost four years ago and I never want to go through that again.

goalie
November 25, 2003, 09:20 AM
We had a little guy in boot camp that sat in the gas chamber and laughed at the DIs. He said that after a few minutes it "tickled" his nose a little.

FPrice
November 25, 2003, 09:22 AM
The way you (they) present this scenario is flawed. As many people have already pointed out, the man with the pistol had no motivation other than to participate in a test and perform a mechanical function. Even at that he was able to draw his pistol and hit the target.

Now take an attacker who is motivated by anger or adrenaline, high on booze or drugs and they may very well be resistant to the effects of a spray long enough to do you real harm.

Just as we need to have the ability to arm ourselves with appropriate items to defend ourselves, we need to be armed with facts to resist such artificial demonstrations of why "we do not need guns".

Thanks for helping to educate our audience.

BluesBear
November 25, 2003, 09:28 AM
To triumph over the lion one must be smarter than the lion.

But

To triumph over evil one must be stronger than the evil.



Feel free to quote me.

45+
November 25, 2003, 11:33 AM
I remember standing at attention in the "(Tear) Gas Chamber" shouting general orders at the top of our lungs after removing our masks just to prove to us that we could continue to function. I do not know the strength of the tear gas, and we certainly coughed and choked, but we stayed in there shouting those orders until they let us out, and then we went on with our "activities".

Like ClubSoda, if that is all I could legally carry, I would consider it. It's better than nothing. But what about situations like the bg following you home being discussed in another thread? What if he is 10' away as Clubsoda mentioned? What if there are several of them?

The subject of FTS rightly gets a lot of discussion when we are discussing firearms. How much higher is the probability of FTS with OC? What do you do then, spray him again?

IMO OC is an appropriate weapon for the U.S. Postman. It might work on dog and since CCW is totally ruled out, it could be used against an attacker in a pinch. But that is what I said before. It is better than nothing.

Safe packin'...

FourDeuce
November 25, 2003, 01:34 PM
"The way you (they) present this scenario is flawed. As many people have already pointed out, the man with the pistol had no motivation other than to participate in a test and perform a mechanical function. Even at that he was able to draw his pistol and hit the target."

I'm not absolutely positive, but it seems to me the object lesson they were trying to demonstrate with that test was that mace might not be enough in a defensive situation.

"Now take an attacker who is motivated by anger or adrenaline, high on booze or drugs and they may very well be resistant to the effects of a spray long enough to do you real harm.
Just as we need to have the ability to arm ourselves with appropriate items to defend ourselves, we need to be armed with facts to resist such artificial demonstrations of why "we do not need guns".""

I took that as more of a demonstration of "why we DO need guns".

Checkman
November 25, 2003, 02:45 PM
Just a technical point. OC and CS are not the same. Having experienced both CS is much worse. But I wasn't disagreeing with anybody here regarding the effectiveness of Pepper Spray. Cops carry a can of pepper spray as just one of many tools on his or her belt. Not the only tool.

FPrice
November 25, 2003, 02:59 PM
"I took that as more of a demonstration of "why we DO need guns"."

I wasn't sure what the original intent was, but I felt that it proved what you said. And I felt that the way it proved it would provide verbal ammunition for someone who wanted to limit us to sprays only.

Perhaps I was not as clear as I should have been.

foghornl
November 25, 2003, 03:12 PM
There is a certain percentage of the population that is essentially immune to Mace, pepper sparay, etc.

I can eat hot & spicy, but there is a limit. I have a distant cousin that will run screaming out of the room when someone opens one of those little pouches of 'taco bell hot sauce'. My nephew, a Marine Lance Corporal, said the tear gas chamber test hardly bothered him, while a couple of guys were on the floor.

Each of us has a different sensitivity level to Mace, OC, etc.

Dave R
November 25, 2003, 03:26 PM
The best example of the relative effectiveness of OC spray vs. handgun may be Tamara's 1st person thread.

Short version is, she sprayed an attacker. REALLY sprayed him. Then withdrew. He kept coming. She drew her pistol. He left.

Gordon Fink
November 25, 2003, 03:35 PM
In my experience, cops don’t have a whole lot of faith in sprays. I don’t doubt them.

Personally, I think non-lethal “weapons” are a potentially dangerous waste of time in most self-defense situations.

~G. Fink

Marko Kloos
November 25, 2003, 03:37 PM
I've known plenty of people who are unaffected by mace, tear gas, or OC.

I have yet to meet anyone who is bulletproof.

Ergo, I carry a handgun for self-defense, and leave the hot stuff for cooking.

DadOfThree
November 25, 2003, 04:15 PM
We had a little guy in boot camp that sat in the gas chamber and laughed at the DIs. He said that after a few minutes it "tickled" his nose a little.
I'm one of those guys. I went through the gas chamber and it really wasn't that bad. My eyes watered a little and that was it. When we were given the okay to go everybody else charged the door. I just stood back and watched the shoving match. :) I have never been sprayed with pepper gas but I don't have any desire to try it.

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