Arizonans! Make your voice heard!


April 7, 2010, 10:07 PM
Tomorrow SB1108 is on the Third Read floor calender for the House of Representatives, the Constitutional Carry bill! This is the one that will make Arizona the third state in the nation to recognize our citizens Constitutional right to carry a firearm, open or concealed, without a government permission form. Please contact your Representatives and ask them to vote YES on SB1108, being substituted for HB 2347. This is the last vote needed, after this the last stop is Governor Brewers desk, and right now her 2A record looks pretty darn good! Please get active!
Thank you for your time.

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April 7, 2010, 11:36 PM
Sorry, but I'm going to have to take the other side of this one. I've lived in AZ fro 40 years, love guns, have had a concealed carry permit since they became available in AZ, but this, quite frankly, scares the hell out of me. The thought of anyone, whether they want to take the time to learn even a minimum of shooting skills and firearms safety or not, being able to slip a gun under their shirt gives me nighmares.

It's not the criminals that scare me. It's the average citizen who thinks that the presence of a gun in their purse or wasteband makes then safer, even if they don't practice with it at all, are the ones that scare me. It's like a girlfriend I had years ago. I told her once that maybe she should buy a gun for her apartment and I would teach her how to use it. She said that she already had one that her dad gave her and proceeded to pull a .38 out of her drawer by picking it up with her thumb and forefinger. If she would have had to use it, the safest person in the room would have been whoever she was shooting at.

I'm TOTALLY in support of people being able to protect themselves with firearms, as long as they put in the time to do it right. Unfortunately there are too many who will not put in that (or any) time.

I'm also for everyone being able to drive, as long as they have a license. I don't want people driving without one and really don't see the difference with guns.

Just my 2 cents.


April 8, 2010, 12:03 AM
You are entitled to your opinion, sir. :)
I have been in this state going on 43 years, and have seen the opposite. You see, open carry has been legal in AZ since 1912, and anyone who is not a prohibited possessor can lawfully carry a sidearm openly with no formal training necessary...same as we don't require formal training to buy a book or cast a vote, other members of the Bill of Rights.
"BUT, that's not the same!' Of course not, on the surface, but the right is as protected as any other in the BoR, which is why this is important. When you require government permission to exercise a right, it is no right. Driving is NOT protected under the Constitution, so government permissions are allowed...and licensed, insured, trained, registered drivers kill more people than uneducated gun owners hands down every day of the year.
On the flip side, we are also working on education on firearms safety in AZ schools too, currently offered as a course usable by school districts, and getting improved itself, looking forward to a time when Firearms Ed is as mandatory as Drivers Ed.
If it saves one life....
But, you are certainly entitled to your opinion, sir, and I wish you well.

April 8, 2010, 12:35 AM
I don't want to get into an argument here because we both really support the same thing: people being able to defend themselves with guns. I would love to see firearms education in the public schools although I do find your use of the word mandatory interesting, since you were just saying how needing government permission to exercise a right is no right at all.

I believe, (and hope I'm wrong) that when enough unqualified, irresponsible people, in the course of using firearms in defense of themselves or others, hurt or kill people who weren't supposed to be hurt or killed (innocent bystanders), it will do grave harm to the advancements made in AZ regarding civilian firearms use.

And yes, car crashes kill thousands each year. And those are licensed drivers. Do you really think it wouldn't be exponentially worse if we just said that anyone who wants to drive can do so, without any training on how to drive a car or what the rules of the road are? Tell me that doesn't make you a little bit nervous?

April 8, 2010, 12:49 AM

Without getting into an ideological debate, because as you said, we support the same thing, I am compelled to point out that the fundamental difference between the subjects of your analogy is that bearing arms is a constitutional right and driving is privilege.

That being said, I do understand your concern and I don't wish to demean you in any way.

April 8, 2010, 01:52 AM
In many states, that constitutional right has been taken away. So, constitutional right or not, if it's not used responsibly and innocent people are hurt all of us who support firearms ownership could lose in the end.

There are just so many people out there who want a gun for protection, have no idea what they are doing, and will not think it necessary to become safe or competent (many will think that they already are, many won't want to take the time) with a gun. I don't understand, constitution or not, how that doesn't make anyone very nervous.

Gun ownership is a constitutional issue. Gun safety/competence is a common sense/public safety issue. If we ignore the latter, we may sacrifice the former.

Wow, that sounded awfully deep. I must be getting tired. Bed time.
Good shooting.


April 8, 2010, 02:03 AM
In many states, that constitutional right has been taken away.
Not if McDonald is a win, but that fight is yet to come. It is lost only because we let it be lost, and let them demonize the mere posession of a tool.
Gun ownership is a constitutional issue. Gun safety/competence is a common sense/public safety issue. If we ignore the latter, we may sacrifice the former.
Firearms accidents are not nearly what brady would have you believe, or the media. I have to say, I have heard that combination before, "common sense" and "guns" in the same sentance, usually from Schumer or Pelosi, sorry. Common Sense in thier definition does not trump the Supreme Law of the Land. If you don't like the Constitution, amend it, or learn to live with it.
As for mandatory, Drivers Ed is an elective, last time I checked, it's mandatory for the schools to offer it.
That's what I meant.
Good night.

April 8, 2010, 08:12 AM
2 states already allow concealed carry without a license and open carry is allowed in many more. I don't recall ever reading about having the right to keep and bear arms as long as you take a safety course, get approval from your police chief after giving references and filling out piles of paperwork, giving your fingerprints, and paying hundreds of dollars in fees. In some places you have to go through even more nonsense than that...and then throw in "may issue" and add in the crazy fees that you'd have to pay in some places and you are seriously infringing on people's rights.

Yo Mama
April 8, 2010, 08:38 AM

That's usually all I hear. Can't trust those gun owners, they need to be EDUCATED.

How about a requirement to have a class to have a baby. Or to buy a house. Or to go on vacation.

April 8, 2010, 12:28 PM
I Respectfully Disagree with you L-Frame.

April 8, 2010, 03:12 PM
I never took drivers ed. I have owned a couple dozen vehicles since I was 16 years old (15 years ago) and never once did I take a "mandatory" driving class. I have been hunting since I was 12 and I took a mandatory hunters education class. I think It would be intersting to look at the stats of how many cars are on the road and how many driving fatalities there are vs how many firearms there are and how many friearms related human deaths there are per year. I know there are guys on here with dozens of firearms. I have several myself, as do all of my brothers and my father. However, none of us more than a couple cars right now. I'll get back to you with this in a little bit.

April 8, 2010, 03:27 PM
Firearms in the US – 200,000,000 according to FBI estimates

Firearms related deaths – 30,000 per year, over 16,000 were suicides, nearly 12,000 were homicides, the rest were unintentional or of “unknown intent”

Automobiles in the US – 250,000,000 registered vehicles in the US in 2009

Automobile-related deaths in the US – 34,000 in 2009, more than half of which involved alcohol or drugs

If you look solely at the per capita numbers, firearms are slightly more dangerous than automobiles, but a closer look tells us firearms are more dangerous to crazy people who are looking to kill themselves and vehicles are more dangerous when mixed with alcohol. Alcohol related fatalities are substantially more dangerous than firearms in the hands of a person with malicious intent. So, maybe they should focus more efforts on rehabbing crazy people and getting folks to stop drinking and driving and less on keeping firearms out of the hands of law abiding citizens regardless of how they intend to carry it and how much training they’ve received.

April 8, 2010, 05:23 PM
I'd reccomend you change your numbers, sir, deliberate acts have to be excluded, as this question deals with untrained individuals and accidents, and it deals with Arizona only, at the moment. I think that will lower the numbers dramatically. A visit to the website for National Center for Injury Prevention and Control, an apparent subset of the CDC, and we see a quick sampling shows mortality injury unintentional by firearm from 1999-2006 in Arizona was 122 out of a population of, 44,382,759, age adjusted to a rate of .28. Change that to motor vehicle, overall, same age and year range, and we get 8814, out of a population of 44,382,759, age adjusted to a rate of 19.90. That seems to be a bit differant, and all drivers are licened, registered, and insured, as opposed to no formal firearms training required to own/carry openly/use a firearm legally.

April 8, 2010, 05:27 PM
Watching House proceedings live right now...the clerk is one incredible speed reader.

April 8, 2010, 05:46 PM
I cant handle the suspense much longer

April 8, 2010, 05:50 PM
Bill passes third read with a tally of 36 to 19, back to the Senate for a formality, then to the Governors desk.
Rock on!

April 8, 2010, 05:57 PM
Thats some good stuff!! I honestly didnt think it would pass, but I'm glad it did.

April 8, 2010, 06:30 PM
why back to the senate ?

April 8, 2010, 06:47 PM
I understand it's a mere formality, no more votes, just touch base and off to the Gov's desk.

April 8, 2010, 07:31 PM
Well guys I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I will end it with this though, if you all turn out to be right and I turn out to be wrong, no one will be happier about it than me.

April 8, 2010, 07:38 PM
Was there an increase in innocent bystander deaths in Vermont or Alaska?

April 8, 2010, 07:49 PM
I don't know anything about Vermont but I have been to Alaska a few times and am good friends with a guy who lived there for years. Alaska has a gun/hunting culture where gun handling skills are passed down from parents to kids, even in the cities. That's awesome.

I'm worried about the single moms and young adults, etc. in phoenix who have never owned a gun, have no idea how to shoot it, what the basic safety rules are, proper storage, etc. who didn't want to take the time before but now, since they no longer have to, would feel safer with a gun in the pocket or purse or whatever.

Like I said, if I'm wrong I will be ecstatic. REALLY!

April 8, 2010, 08:16 PM
I'm worried about the single moms and young adults, etc. in phoenix who have never owned a gun, have no idea how to shoot it, what the basic safety rules are, proper storage, etc. who didn't want to take the time before but now, since they no longer have to, would feel safer with a gun in the pocket or purse or whatever.

I understand your reasoning.

I dont believe there will large surge in "uneducated firearm owners" running the streets wild. I believe most people have the common sense to know that a firearm can be dangerous and will therefore take proper percautions.

I self educated myself when I first became interested. The internet & forums like these were a great help. I took the Mandated CCW class in october & I didnt learn anything new that I didnt already know. So what was the point of me shelling out $150, wasting 8hrs of my life and missing work?

Common Sense rules, & u cant fix stupid.

April 8, 2010, 08:31 PM
Gosh, it's not like we're banning gun safety classes.

I live in AZ. I shot some when I was young, but I bought my first handgun about 10 years ago, a 1911. First thing I did was take a introductory handgun course to learn it's proper operation. The class was the first time I fired it.

I did not need the government to tell me to do this! The idea that the common sense of the populace will be different when unlicensed concealed carry is legal, after almost 100 years of unlicensed open carry in this state is ridiculous.

Gun training is great. We just don't need the government to tell us to do it.

Can't see how this right is important? How about a pregnant woman who cannot take the class because of the potential lead poisoning to the baby? Doesn't she have the right to buy a gun today and keep it loaded if she has or feels the need to be armed, perhaps due to some stalker situation?

April 8, 2010, 09:03 PM
"I did not need the government to tell me to do this!"

That's my point. You did it anyway because you thought it was the intelligent thing to do whereas I think that there many that won't. Do they have the right too? Sure. I just don't want to be anywhere near them if they ever have to use it.

I'll finish with one story: I know it won't change anyone's mind but I'll tell it anyway. At my first concealed carry class MANY years at Shooter's world, a lady was qualifying with a 6" S&W 686. She was firing nice groups with it at 10 yards, VERY slowly. To his credit, the instructor saw what she was doing and told her that a real life situation would not give her that much time. He then had the class put their guns on the counter and he turned the lights down. He said that when the lights come up we would have 3 seconds to pick up our guns and fire 3 shots at the 10 yard target. He turned the lights up and the lady only got off only 2 shots in the 3 seconds and completely missed the target with one of them. She looked annoyed that he would put her in that scenario and ruin her nice groups. After it was over, I asked her if she was actually going to carry that cannon in her purse and she told me that she carried a 638 airweight but doesn't shoot it because it hurts too much. I'll never argue with her right to carry it, I'll just pray me or a loved one are not around if she has to use it.

Maybe that's are only difference here. I believe that there are many more of those types out there (and she was actually training, just not very well) than you guys do. And I do not believe that her 638 airweight in her purse makes her safer.

Sorry for ruffling everyones feathers.

God Bless.

April 8, 2010, 09:20 PM
L-Frame, like I said, I'm all for gun training. I just don't need the government to make me feel safe from other law abiding citizen's exercising their God given constitutional rights.

April 8, 2010, 09:21 PM
When you start legally open carrying, you quickly get paranoid about least I did. It will be great to be able to conceal without worrying about some overzealous cop. Woohoo!

April 8, 2010, 10:34 PM
We've had no measurable amount of problems in Vermont but it's a hunting state and as stated in a post above. the moral responsibility is passed down from generation to generation. Do I think that people need a safety course YES ,especially the inner city people because they get their handling skills / ideas from TV or video games and think they are pistol masters. But on the other hand you need to be held accountable for you actions. Give them an 8 hour class on safe handling and STORAGE class, pat them on the ass on the way out the door and tell them they are now ACCOUNTABLE, not the gun manufacture, not the state or society becuse it's their trigger finger that is connected to THEIR brain.
Scary thought...a bunch of armed ACORN people at the polls for the next election. I'm sure it will have qualifiers like Vermont, and should. Must by 21, must be a state resident and US citizen and not a convicted felon or have a TRO.

April 9, 2010, 09:34 AM
L-Frame - I know it runs counter to our current culture but the vast majority of people are good, honest, responsible people. We can see this when looking at the overwhelming gun sales surge in the US over the last few years and no sea of blood in accidental or intentional shootings that should have followed. Many, many non-gun-owners bought their first firearms in the last few years, and there is no mandatory training for them, but they have done admirably well.

Most states allow unlicensed open carry - no blood. Two states allow unlicensed concealed carry - no blood. The same argument was used when Florida passed the first shall-issue law (people just aren't that responsible...) - no blood bath. The truth is that when it comes to guns, there's a lawyer attached to every bullet and that keeps responsible, law abiding people in check. For the irresponsible and non-law abiding people - which are an underwhelming minor that I would rather not have the laws tailored around - they are going to do whatever they do whether everyone else is subjected to infringements on rights or not.

BTW, I believe that mandatory training is an infringement because of the following scenario. Let's say you are a woman that just realized you are being stalked. You should be able to drive by a gun store on your way home, by a pistol and holster, and carry it immediately. Otherwise, any type of waiting period is an infringement on the immediate right to prepare yourself for defense. Plus, guns are WAY simpler to use and be safe with than most people think. Most people can be taught and understand the 4 rules in 15 minutes, and be taught how to use a revolver adequately in another 15. WAY easier than driving a car...

April 9, 2010, 12:40 PM
KFYI is talking about the bill this morning. They hosts are basically taking L-Frames viewpoint and are lobbying for the gov. not to sign the bill. They are using the El Mirage Walmart AD as support for their position...

April 9, 2010, 02:23 PM
The "nearly famous Barry Young" on KFYI this morning is a loser. He's always sucking up to McCain as well. I would not worry about him, although I was surprised at his stupidity this morning.

April 9, 2010, 02:40 PM
The moron in WalMart was no AD, that was pure stupidity and negligence. ALSO, he was carrying openly, which has been legal since the state began. The new bill woudn't have changed a single thing in that instance, kind of like when the leftists were lobbying for the Brady law saying it would have stopped Hinkley, who would have passed every Brady check with flying colors.
Lobby the gov to make it mandatory for schools to offer the Arizona Gun Safety course as an elective in all high schools!

Yo Mama
April 9, 2010, 04:45 PM
KFYI is talking about the bill this morning. They hosts are basically taking L-Frames viewpoint and are lobbying for the gov. not to sign the bill. They are using the El Mirage Walmart AD as support for their position...

The "nearly famous Barry Young" on KFYI this morning is a loser. He's always sucking up to McCain as well. I would not worry about him, although I was surprised at his stupidity this morning.

Yeah, I'm about done with KFYI. I've been getting more and more upset when I hear this coming from a supposedly Conservative outlet. They are really just like all the politicians running as Conservatives, until we find out where they really stand.

April 9, 2010, 04:54 PM
Yeah, Rush Limbaugh and Michael Savage are the only one's worth listening to. Even in AZ, local talk radio can be weak.

April 9, 2010, 05:53 PM
I think Broomhead's show is going to be all about the bill...

Did the gov. sign the bill yet? I heard she was suppose to do it today...

April 9, 2010, 09:39 PM
Isn't listed as sent to her yet, listed "transmit to Senate" right now, will probably say "transmit to Governor" tomorrow. AZ residents who are in favor of this, please call/e-mail Governor Brewer and ask her to sign it, get your opinion in now.

April 9, 2010, 10:54 PM
One big score to Arizona.

April 10, 2010, 10:02 AM
From Governor Jan Brewer's Website
"Protecting Second Amendment Rights
•Proud member and longtime supporter of National Rifle Association.
•Proud member and longtime supporter of the Arizona Rifle and Pistol Association.
•Throughout her career, Brewer has consistently supported pro-firearm legislative initiatives.
•As Governor, she has expanded gun owner rights to carry firearms while respecting private property rights."
Reading this I would hope she signs S. B. 1108 afirming our Articile 2 zec. 26 rights, still a call or a visit to her web site couldn't hurt.

April 10, 2010, 11:19 AM
Wether there is a law to carry concealed with a permit or without a permit, criminals and idiots will conceal no matter what the law says. So people should stop thinking all hell is going to break loose if this bill passes.

April 10, 2010, 02:27 PM
I would actually be willing to bet that if and when this bill becomes law there is actually a very small difference in the number of people carrying. Lots of people will carry once or twice just to try it but i think if 10% is carrying now (nonsense numbers!) after the fact 10.2% will be carrying, if that.

April 10, 2010, 02:52 PM
azyogi, I couldn't find her NRA membership on the linked site from, but her bio did say member of AZ rifle and pistol assoc. I did find this official press release from when she signed the AZ Firearms Freedom Law a few days ago.STATEMENT BY GOVERNOR JAN BREWER
“Today I signed 14 measures by the Arizona Legislature, including House Bill 2307 sponsored
by Representative Nancy McClain, as well as House Bill 2543 sponsored by Representative David
“These two pieces of legislation related to firearms protect and strengthen Arizonan’s
constitutional rights provided under the 2nd Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. In particular, HB
2307 should send a clear and convincing message that politicians in Washington should not attempt
to get between Arizonans and their constitutional rights.”


April 10, 2010, 05:44 PM
while i understand L-frames concerns, i have serious doubts that they will materialize. those same concerns were put forth in florida when the first of the ccw laws was being debated, and nothing bad has happened as a result of florida, or any other state, passing a shall issue ccw law. in the same vein, nothing bad will come from the law just signed by governor brewer that virtually eliminates the permit requirement for ccw. however it does not let you carry concealed everywhere. if you want to carry concealed in a restaurant that serves alcohol, or a bar, legally, then you still need a ccw permit. all the bill is doing is taking away the permit requirement and the criminal penalties for law abiding citizens who want to carry a concealed weapon. if you want to carry concealed in another state that has a reciprocity agreement with arizona, then you still have to get the ccw permit.

April 10, 2010, 06:29 PM
Actually, I believe it is SB 1108 that concerns unlicensed Concealed Carry and I do not believe that she has signed that yet. So continue to make your phone call and send letters.

April 10, 2010, 07:08 PM
Yes, it IS SB1108, I was merely posting a signing statement by the Governor on related firearms bills to show her stance - this is unlikely to be an unwilling signature, or allowed to become law without signature. I just love that statement, In particular, HB 2307 should send a clear and convincing message that politicians in Washington should not attempt to get between Arizonans and their constitutional rights.

The Lone Haranguer
April 11, 2010, 03:42 PM
Some good came of the 2008 election. It got Janet Napolitano out of the governor's office and a pro-gun governor in. :)

April 12, 2010, 02:45 AM
God I love Arizona!! :) Come on Brewer! Lets pass this Bill!

As for the "Accidental" Shooting in Wal-Mart... Some people should not ever have the opportunity to be in control of a firearm. WHO in their right mind would walk around WAL-MART swinging their gun around un-holstered loading and unloading it!?

Those are the kind of people that scare me. The idiots out there w/o any common sense at all! When im openly carrying my gun, i try not to touch it in public other than to adjust it for comfort or to feel if its still in place where i want it! I would never walk around with it un-holstered... loaded... in hand unless there was a damn good reason to use it! What an Idiot!

I agree that alot of people will "try" it out for a while. Just to see how it feels. Some will keep carrying it concealed and some will go back to open carry or not at all. As for me, i dont like parading around with people seeing mine. So i cant wait to be able to conceal it! I already bought my Inside the Waistband holster for when i can use it. AND! AND.. I will still take the CCW class even tho its NOT mandatory by the Govt. because there is always room for... (SELF IMPROVEMENT)

I am a person who believes that getting the most education in this area is vital. I have been shooting guns since i was a kid and have exceptional gun experience but there is always ALWAYS more room for improvement. AND i hope the people who decide to carry concealed will at least take the responsibility to SELF-TRAIN themselves on proper control and care. (Either online through gun sites, or in actual gun classes) AND the ones who dont... God help us who are around them that they dont do anything Stupid and Irresponsible!

Thanks! God Bless!


April 12, 2010, 03:05 AM
Agree, training make everything better. Punishments have to be make when one make an unreasonable mistake. I can only think in the feeling of being able to carry a gun.

Yo Mama
April 12, 2010, 09:57 AM
Some good came of the 2008 election. It got Janet Napolitano out of the governor's office and a pro-gun governor in.

I love Brewer for her gun stance, but other than that she was a disaster for AZ. Economically yes she was left a mess, but in 2 years, she managed to really screw it up worse. She has not worked well with the legislature, and most feel she is done and will not get another term.

April 12, 2010, 11:26 AM
Gov. Brewer is in DC today, she has a wide-open calendar tomorrow so hopefully she'll ink the deal tomorrow.;

April 12, 2010, 11:30 AM
They are devoting the entire show this morning on KFYI trying to stop the gov. from signing the bill...

Yo Mama
April 12, 2010, 01:51 PM
To bad I missed that today, as I stopped listening to them and am now glad that I did.

Also to bad for them that she will sign it. :D

April 12, 2010, 03:03 PM
just left a message requesting that she sign SB1108

Arizonans, call Gov. Brewer and ask her to sign the bill!

Email is too slow and passive, give her a ring:

Telephone (602) 542-4331
Toll Free 1-(800) 253-0883
Fax (602) 542-1381

April 12, 2010, 07:19 PM
All that's needed is a pen.

April 14, 2010, 12:43 PM
i have a pen......ill drive down there and let her borrow it if she will just sign the thing

April 15, 2010, 05:07 PM
well, she signed a ton of bills yesterday, but sb 1108 wasn't one of them....

just called her again asking her to sign.

April 15, 2010, 05:36 PM
i personally dont care if she signs long as she does not veto it im happy.

April 15, 2010, 06:38 PM
she said she supported it from what i heard, and supposedly requested certain changes from the original draft to assure her signature.

To NOT sign it would be pretty wishy-washy IMO

April 15, 2010, 06:59 PM
However it would become law, which means that she might lose some votes over it but the ends were achieved.

April 15, 2010, 07:20 PM
i personally think she'd do more political damage to herself by not signing it.... those who are against it are going to vote against her regardless. Those who support her based significantly on this issue (which as we know in AZ is a big deal), i might call future dedication into question.

hypothesizing, speculating and whatnot of course

April 16, 2010, 07:31 PM
it was signed just got off the phone with them.

April 16, 2010, 08:26 PM
Any idea when is takes effect?

On a side note this topic has been talked about for a month at my shop. Lots of interesting thoughts from my fellow employees. Most are in favor.

April 16, 2010, 08:29 PM
I sure hope this goes through for Arizona, then spreads like wildfire to other states.

April 16, 2010, 09:01 PM
WHOHOO! AZ is the third state in the Union to trust her citizens! Law goes into effect 90 days after the Legislature adjourns sin die, which typically means it will take effect in September, usually.

April 16, 2010, 09:23 PM
i just thought of something......

... will more businesses put up "no firearms" signs now with the passage of this law ?

I hope not... i'm sure a few will though

thoughts ?

April 16, 2010, 11:57 PM
will more businesses put up "no firearms" signs now with the passage of this law ?

I wouldnt think so, its more out of sight out of mind now. If they didnt mind OC before why would they care about CC

Yo Mama
April 17, 2010, 09:09 AM
she might lose some votes over it but the ends were achieved.

She won't be re-elected, period. She has no chance, end of her career.

I LOVE her on guns, but as a Gov. economically she has been a real disaster. Economically, she has no long term plan, and she has alienated herself from her own party through the budget nightmare.

She did the right thing, I think knowing she won't be around much longer, and she decided to sign what is right for the AZ.

April 17, 2010, 03:56 PM
economically she has been a real disaster. Economically, she has no long term plan, and she has alienated herself from her own party through the budget nightmare.

You see the same thing in many states, and to be quite honest it is not the fault of the most recent politicians most of the time. The nation has been in a recession, and many governments had created a budget that just barely balanced itself with the tax dollars coming in during the economic boom.
What this means is that they don't have enough revenue to support the excessive fat government propped up during an economic boom.
They either have to make drastic cuts, which pisses off all the unions representing government jobs since government jobs are the prime expense of state governments, or they have to raise taxes.
So jobs cut, and services reduced or taxes raised.
It really is as simple as that, and either one is going to piss off large mobilized groups of voters.

For example the OP works in corrections. Corrections is represented by large unions most places. Unions most often aligned with Democrats and their candidates.
Strong budget cuts will likely reduce the number of corrections employees, and he could find himself out of a job if they balance the budget. As a result the Unions will use scare tactics and remind everyone of all the dangerous criminals that might have to be released if there is any fewer guards (even if it is mainly non-violent offenders that would be released). Along with other tactics that will make the person making the decision look bad.
Police, fire, nurses, school teachers, they all do the same thing and use similar scare tactics, and belong to powerful unions that are effective at getting the point across.
While raising taxes is going to upset everyone, but especially a lot of the conservative base, often the base that is more inclined to support gun rights and that she represents. Also when taxes are raised for a shortfall in bad times, they almost never are reduced later. The new revenue from good times is just used to prop up some new government programs or employees, leading to the exact same problem some years in the future, while everyone will still be paying more taxes.
Either is going to be a political loss and give the talking heads something to cite to make the politician in charge look like something the people did not want to elect to office and do not want around in the future.

What it means is most who have been unfortunate enough to be a politician in charge of a state budget in the last year or two are going to receive a bad review which will hurt their career.
The leader is also a figurehead, and while it may take many people in a legislator to make things happen irregardless of what the leader wants to do, it is the leader that takes the blame and becomes the scapegoat when things don't happen.
So if the legislator refuses to play ball not wishing to upset various local constituents and hurt their own career, or does not like working with the leader, the leader will be blamed for it in the end and be unlikely to see another term.
But the truth is often that it is not really their fault, but the fault of the people who created such a bloated government that requires more revenue than a less booming economy can support.

April 17, 2010, 06:32 PM
Well said, though there are some specifics that somewhat alter the equation here in AZ. :) We have a truth in sentancing law, that requires inmates to serve 85% of thier sentance, so to release inmates early would require the legislature to deliberately change the law to allow that, and the hay that would make would end every political career attached to it. Also, inmates can be in for current non violent crimes, but might have several violent convictions in the past. I know more than one personally.
Unions don't have the power they'd like to in AZ, we are a right-to-work state, and in my Dept we have at least three, sometimes four competing unions to choose from. Only reason to use them is legal help, they have no power at the Captial level. On being Deomcrat, that's spot on, AZCOPS just endorsed Terry Goddard for Governor, Democrat Attorney General. I quit that union.
We made our cuts in-house, losing 2.75% of my pay, and taking 6 unpaid furlough days off a year, slashing positions and eliminating overtime. We also have a special election next month on a $.01 sales tax inscrease that comes with a auto repeal. It has to go through a Constitutional amendment, as we have a balanced budget amendment, no deficit spending allowed. I have paid for electric fans, coffee and coffee makers, microwaves and other supplies out of my own pocket for my staff, as there are no funds whatsoever for those items.
Personally, I like Governor Brewer, and feel she inherited an almost uncleanable mess from Nappy, (who presided over making 60% of the budget untouchable but voter decree), and intend on voting for her next election. That's just me, and waaay off the political cliff for here.
Back to guns, I am still of the opinion the next step must be firearms safety education in the schools. :)

April 17, 2010, 09:40 PM
good post armoredman

---mohave county AZ

April 18, 2010, 02:33 AM
i definately agree that firearms safety should be taught. I for one in high school had lots of friends who didnt know anything at all about firearms safety and had to teach them pretty much everything. I took people out shooting pretty regularly and have been in several less then perfect scenarios, the worst being swept with the muzzle of an old mauser that had just failed to fire. I was never hurt and knew the risks of trying to teach people who were less educated. I feel that it could somehow be attached to physical education/health class or something.

April 22, 2010, 12:36 AM
I know we are happy out here in Mesa that it passed!

I grew up in Montana, where gun handling skills are taught pretty young. I do see a lot of that in AZ, but that may be due to the type of folks I associate with. If the general concern is lack of education, well... that can be remedied. We just need a little cultural shift! ;)

April 22, 2010, 08:09 AM
Passed, signed and goes into effect in June/July.

At that we might have left this open except for the political drift.

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