Can a .44 mag levergun do 1500ft lbs @ 100y?


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axxxel
April 8, 2010, 07:47 PM
Well? Is it possible to do without ignoring safety? I don't own anything in .44 mag.

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ArmedBear
April 8, 2010, 07:50 PM
Why do you care?

axxxel
April 8, 2010, 08:02 PM
If it can do that then it's classified as a cartridge (legally) powerful enough for our largest deer and then it would make great sense as a woods rifle (to use while primarily hunting our smaller deer which is legal to take with less powerful cartridges such as the .223 remingto).

If a cartridge can do 2000J@ 100m (bullet must be 155grains or heavier) then it's good enough for any game in Sweden.

So... can it? Anyone?

Thanks!

Zundfolge
April 8, 2010, 08:05 PM
I'm going to assume it can because there are plenty of folk out here in CO that use .44 lever guns for deer. We have similar requirements here.


After some research I'm going to revise that and say no. Looks like you might get 1500 ft/lbs from a .44mag at the muzzle.

That and Sweden has some ridiculous requirements for deer hunting. So are Swedish deer larger than Colorado Elk?

Here in Colorado you must use expanding bullets that weigh min. 70 grains for deer, pronghorn and bear, 85 grains for elk and moose, and have an impact energy (at 100 yds.) of 1,000-ft. pounds as rated by manufacturer. source PDF (http://wildlife.state.co.us/NR/rdonlyres/393CEE85-2EA3-48B9-9480-7EDC2166361B/0/biggame.pdf)

axxxel
April 8, 2010, 08:12 PM
edit: nvm

Edit2: We have (basically) 2 kinds of deer of different size. For the smaller ones .223 is ok. The larger ones are in the same class as moose and brown bear. They can get pretty big.

Thank you!

/Huge Rand fan by the way.

Abel
April 8, 2010, 08:25 PM
I think you might want to use a 30-30 instead of a 44Mag. Or a 35 Rem.

OregonJohnny
April 8, 2010, 08:26 PM
Hornady makes the 225 grain .44 Mag LeveRevolution round, which they claim makes just over 1,000 lb./ft. energy at 100 yards, out of a 20" barrel, and that bullet is moving at 1,870 ft./sec at the muzzle. You'd probably have to handload this particular Hornady bullet to very high pressures to get it moving much faster. Maybe if you had a lighter bullet, and a longer barrel, you could begin to get close to the 1500 lb./ft. at 100 yards number, but it seems pretty remote.

But I am far from an expert on .44 Magnum rifles or extremely fast .44 handloads, so someone else may have a better answer.

Ridgerunner665
April 8, 2010, 08:29 PM
I'm no expert on the 44 either...but based on what I do know, 1,500 ft. lbs. is out of reach for the 44.

But I have heard of 340 grain loads that were just over 1,500 ft. lbs at the muzzle.....they were "so called" +P+.

OregonJohnny
April 8, 2010, 08:43 PM
Ridgerunner665,

I believe you're referring to the Buffalo Bore load.

In doing some very hasty research and math, it looks near impossible to get a 240-grain or heavier .429-.430" bullet moving fast enough out of a conventional rifle barrel, to make anything close to 1500 lb./ft. at 100 yards.

It's just out of the realm of what the .44 Magnum was invented to do. But from what I've read, the .44 Magnum, with good bullet selection, out of a lever-action rifle is just about the handiest and most effective tool you can use against small and medium sized deer in thick brush or timber, within 150 yards.

R.W.Dale
April 8, 2010, 08:45 PM
This thread begs the question.

Who verifies that your load is legal or not???? Are there velocity police in the woods??

Ridgerunner665
April 8, 2010, 08:48 PM
Buffalo Bore sounds about right...

To the OP, why not the 444 Marlin? It can do 1,500 ft. lbs. at 100 yards even with plinking loads.

Ridgerunner665
April 8, 2010, 08:49 PM
krochus...I was thinking the same thing.

I'm guessing they use standard published data per caliber...not accurate I know, but the velocity police may not care.

Runningman
April 8, 2010, 10:40 PM
Can a .44 mag levergun do 1500ft lbs @ 100y?

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Well? Is it possible to do without ignoring safety? I don't own anything in .44 mag. I would not think about trying to make 1500ft lbs @ 100y out of my 1894 Marlin lever action.

336A
April 8, 2010, 11:12 PM
The key to using the .44 magnum on game bigger than white tail deer, mule deer and black bear is to treat it like a big bore rifle. I'd like to know where some of the locales have come up with using some arbitrary number as the bottom line for harvesting game. A good case in point for this is the .357 from a carbine. Will it make 1,000ftb of energy at 100yd....? heck no but don't tell that to the countless deer that go to the meat locker every year.

Now the real treat with the .44 mag is a good cast bullet with a nice big meplat. A .44 mag carbine so loaded is a force to be reckoned with for sure. If one hits a elk or moose at 100yd with a good cast bullet you will have ropes of blood coming out both sides, and a dead animal on the ground. There is a fella over at Marlinowners that has used his Marlin 1894 .44 to take countless Elk. It is a shame that some folks don't get the chance to see just how good a .44 mag from a rifle is due to these B.S. regulations.

ants
April 9, 2010, 01:10 AM
Way back in the 1970's I bought a Marlin 1894 in 44Mag and did a bunch of handloading. I apologize that my log books are packed away deep in the storage shed somewhere. I can't give you specific data.

But I do remember splitting every piece of brass I owned. I packed enough powder behind a lightweight bullet and got it to fly incredibly fast, but the brass just isn't made for it. It isn't rifle brass. I greatly exceeded magnum performance, but often split brand new brass on the first shot.

After a year or so, I could see dull rough areas beginning to form in the first 2 inches past the chamber. I was burning the bore like a Weatherby magnum.

By the way, after I had fun with the rifle I sold it at a bargain. I told the buyer about my adventures, but he really wanted that 44 caliber lever action so he bought it. To this day, it is the only gun I ever sold. I figured I pretty well wore it out in one year, having lots of fun.


So can you do it? Sure. Is it wise? I don't think so. Your opinion may differ.

axxxel
April 9, 2010, 05:41 AM
Nah there are no cops in the woods but if word gets around that I'm using underpowered cartridges I might eventually get in trouble or get "shunned".

Don't you have classification as well? They're called something along the lines of "CXP3", right? Are there cops in your woods checking your magazine capacity? ;)

Thanks for all the replies guys, I guess if I get a levergun for this I'll go with a .45-70 or .444.

eastbank
April 9, 2010, 06:32 AM
i tried to load the 44mag to a higher speed to get it to shoot flatter, settled on a 200gr hornady xtp with 28grs h-110, a real killer on deer when shot thru the chest. then i picked up a winchester timber carbine in 444, and it can be loaded from 44 special to top 444 speeds and it is short and light weight. and i have never looked back. eastbank.

R.W.Dale
April 9, 2010, 12:04 PM
Nah there are no cops in the woods but if word gets around that I'm using underpowered cartridges I might eventually get in trouble or get "shunned".

Don't you have classification as well? They're called something along the lines of "CXP3", right? Are there cops in your woods checking your magazine capacity? ;)

Thanks for all the replies guys, I guess if I get a levergun for this I'll go with a .45-70 or .444.
The cxp scale is actually little more than winchesters guidline over the past couple years. Granted we don't have game the size of meese but here in Arkansas our only requirement is to use a centerfire not smaller than .22

our only wacky rule is you can't shoot coyoties and thus hogs with a rifle or handgun larger than 30cal!
So a 30/378wby would be ok but a .357 carbine is verboten

foghornl
April 9, 2010, 12:31 PM
Are there cops in your woods checking your magazine capacity?

yes, every state in the USA has some sort of "Game & Fish" department, may be called Wildlife, natural resources, etc. Some states actually have a "Game & Fish Comission"

R.W.Dale
April 9, 2010, 12:59 PM
Are there cops in your woods checking your magazine capacity?

yes, every state in the USA has some sort of "Game & Fish" department, may be called Wildlife, natural resources, etc. Some states actually have a "Game & Fish Comission"
I would just like to note that not all states have rifle magazine restrictions.

Float Pilot
April 9, 2010, 04:05 PM
The hand-loads I use in my 44 magnum carbine, (18 inch) have a muzzle velocity of 1,700 fps with a 310 grain Keith style hard cast bullet.
Velocity Muzzle Energy

Muzzle: 1700fps.................1.989 ft-lbs
25 yrds 1,617.....................1,800
50 yrds 1,538....................1,627
75 yrds 1,462....................1,471
100yd 1,391....................1,332

My load could be improved upon since I must seat the bullet deep due to the M92 action. So in theory a longer barrel or a longer action could safely give you the desired energy at 100 yards. With the big flat faced bullets I am using, it would require 1,831 fps to achieve 1,500 foot pounds of energy at 100 yards.

My loads could do that with a 24 inch barrel lever action without modifying the C.O.A.L.

CraigC
April 19, 2010, 07:38 PM
A properly loaded .44Mag rifle will kill anything that walks or crawls on planet earth. Problem is, it will never reach 1500ft-lbs and any load that would do so would be WAAAAY too much for deer. That is because big bore handguns and the rifles that chamber their cartridges kill very differently from high velocity rifle cartridges and energy is a useless figure in assessing their effectiveness on game.

A longer barrel won't help because with the slowest of appropriate powders (H110/296) 18-20" is optimum.

rondog
April 19, 2010, 08:31 PM
You could probably handload rounds that would meet the requirement, but I'd bet The Law wouldn't care about YOU and YOUR gun and YOUR loads, they'd only go by "the book" and "the book" sez that .44 magnum ain't good enough. Probably safer to just start with more gun, I'd reckon.

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