Holosight on top of scope on AR? yes/no?


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noob_shooter
April 8, 2010, 10:39 PM
what do you think? something like this.

http://www.hmongimage.com/posts/ar-holo.jpg

Not my gun.. i just added the holosight on top just to see how it would look before actually doing it.

using this:

http://media.midwayusa.com/ProductImages/Medium/261557.jpg

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Zak Smith
April 8, 2010, 10:52 PM
I recommend mounting it at the 1:30'o'clock position at the rear of the float tube like this.

http://demigodllc.com/photo/CAV17/smaller/A100_0496_img.jpg (http://demigodllc.com/photo/CAV17/?small=A100_0496_img.jpg)

Z-Michigan
April 8, 2010, 10:55 PM
If you do it like Zak suggests, you keep a reasonable height over bore and a reasonable cheekweld. If you use the rings shown in the OP's photo, you get a height over bore of around 5" or so, which does really weird things to your zero and will make it hard to hit exactly where you want at the short to medium distances where you would want to be using the holosight instead of the conventional telescope, while also making your cheekweld more of a throat/beard weld.

noob_shooter
April 8, 2010, 10:55 PM
okay.. so where can i get a mount like that? can it be mounted onto my MOE magpul handguard?

Zak Smith
April 8, 2010, 11:02 PM
If you don't have a fixed fore-end like the PRI to JP (pictured in the OP), you can get a 45 degree rail adapter and mount it on the front end of the receiver rail.

noob_shooter
April 8, 2010, 11:16 PM
i found this.. thanks ZAk.. i did a search on google for your 45 degree rail...

http://ant-supplies.co.uk/images/RAIL%20WEAVER%20DUAL%2045%20MAIN.jpg

i can mount this on my gas block...

http://ant-supplies.co.uk/images/RAIL-45-DEGREE-MAIN.jpg

Zak Smith
April 8, 2010, 11:17 PM
A red dot will be more effective mounted further to the rear.

noob_shooter
April 8, 2010, 11:21 PM
so since i have the moe handguard and the side seems to be offset by 45 degrees, maybe i can just buy one of these moe rails and it will work? i can mount it back farther..

http://store.magpul.com/product/107/104

http://store.magpul.com/images/uploads/107_518_popup.jpg

Zak Smith
April 8, 2010, 11:23 PM
Just remember if the top part of the handguard moves your zero changes.

noob_shooter
April 8, 2010, 11:24 PM
oh yeah..darn it.... forgot all about that. The handguard is only polymer.. seems pretty sturdy though..

why is it that a holosight is more effective closer towards the rear vs the front by the gas block?

Zak Smith
April 8, 2010, 11:27 PM
Because you can pick it up easier, IE, it takes more angle of deflection up close to lose sight of the dot.

Z-Michigan
April 8, 2010, 11:27 PM
noob, you probably don't want to hear this, but you likely would be far better off putting all your money and effort into a single better quality scope and mount chosen for the type of shooting you are going to do most often. I.e. a red dot if you're mostly doing shorter distance or action shooting, a telescope if you're focused on longer distance precision shooting. Getting good results with the type of setup Zak showed is not going to be cheap, and you could waste a lot of money doing a cheap mediocre version that won't perform well.

I personally have wasted a fair bit of money on cheap scopes that weren't worth it. I eventually started playing with the higher end stuff (Eotech, Aimpoint, ACOG) and while the price is up there, the quality is dramatically better. There are a few less expensive scopes I've found decent - the Vortex Strikefire for a red dot, and the Weaver K-4 for a 4x telescope - but you have to do your research and still shouldn't expect even the best $150 scope to work like a $500 or $1000 scope.

BTW, I have MOE handguards and I wouldn't seriously consider mounting an optic or any other aiming device (laser, etc.) on them. For me they are looser fitting than the OEM handguards. They look cool and offer rail options for some basic uses, but are not an optic mounting platform.

noob_shooter
April 8, 2010, 11:31 PM
well, i have a decent scope on my DPMS carbine. Redfield 4x-12x-40. I shoot both far and close that's why I want that setup. I usually shoot 25yard-300 yards and using the scope at 25 yards is not that great. I mean, it is, but just wouldn't prefer using the scope at 25 yards.

Z-Michigan
April 8, 2010, 11:33 PM
Not trying to tell you what to do, but I'll bet you that a comparably priced 1-4x or 2-7x scope would work better for that range of uses than your Redfield 4-12x. A lot of people gravitate toward too much magnification. Remember that Army and USMC snipers have until very recently used only fixed 10x scopes for shooting out to 1000 yards. Ideal, not necessarily, but completely functional, rugged, and less expensive than comparably good zoom options with more peak magnification.

Birddog1911
April 8, 2010, 11:36 PM
I can't necessarily speak to the set up that Zak has, other than to say that it is a nice set up. I will tell you that I have run two different EOTechs, and love them. The ability to sight quickly with them is unsurpased, IMO, better than the "scope" types like Aimpoint. Now, Aimpoint has some great things going for them, as well.

noob_shooter
April 8, 2010, 11:38 PM
Z-Michigan,

true.... maybe i'll throw this redfield on my savage 17hmr BTVS... only reason i wanted a red dot setup with the scope is so i can get a quick target acquisition at closer range. i have a feeling i'm gonna spend extra $$$ for a good setup...

Zak Smith
April 8, 2010, 11:38 PM
Here is a reference for optics applications on the AR-15

http://demigodllc.com/photo/PRM-2006.11/icon/D100_5378_img.jpg
article | Fighting Carbine Optics http://demigodllc.com/icon/extwh3.png (http://demigodllc.com/articles/fighting-carbine-optics-for-the-ar-15)

FWIW, the small red dot in my photo is a DrSight.

noob_shooter
April 8, 2010, 11:43 PM
where can i find these rails?

http://www.hitechtactical.com/image.php?id=502&type=D

http://www.hitechtactical.com/image.php?id=502&type=D

the ones on the magpul site are only polymer. If i can't mount a holosight effectively, i want to mount a flash light or some sort.

Z-Michigan
April 8, 2010, 11:45 PM
For a flashlight, I personally would (and do!) use one half of a $10 Ergo polymer rail (same one Magpul sells, I believe). It's cheap, light, and works fine for something like a flashlight. The rails you're picturing appear to be aluminum, and I just don't see the benefit. If you really want those check out options from GG&G and YHM.

BTW, if you really want to do a lot of things with a quadrail, save yourself lots of aggravation and abandon the MOE handguards, and get a Troy setup, like the drop-in, non-free-float battlerail linked below. They are $150 or less, quality, and will actually mount rigidly and be in spec. Again, I've played with the cheaper quadrail options (MOE and a UTG setup that is the same concept as this Troy but a cheap Chinese product) and only come away frustrated.

http://store.troyind.com/CAR_M4_Drop_In_Rails_p/srai-mrf-d7bt-00.htm

Quadrails from LaRue and Daniel Defense are equal (or even better) quality, and options from Midwest and YHM would be worth considering but all considered I think the Troy is probably the best value.

noob_shooter
April 8, 2010, 11:51 PM
thanks Z. I will have to really look @ the Troy setup...

M&PVolk
April 9, 2010, 12:01 AM
For a good all around scope that can be used for varminting and relatively quick target acquisition, I like the Nikon Prostaff BDC scope in 3-9x40. The BDC does very well at helping judge what is going on with the .223, especially from a 16" barrel. If you want a red dot, I would either mount it when needed, or put it at a 45 as mentioned earlier. FWIW, the Nikon will run you under $200. Not a bad deal at all.

noob_shooter
April 9, 2010, 12:19 AM
damn... thanks for all the help guys..

Zak Smith
April 9, 2010, 12:24 AM
If you shoot right handed the sight goes on the right.

Another option is to put a third ring on the scope forward of the regular forward ring and put a two-sided rail on its base, and put the red dot on that rail.

noob_shooter
April 9, 2010, 12:30 AM
i thought of something..

this http://www.brownells.com/userdocs/products/l_080000533_1.jpg

+

http://media.midwayusa.com/ProductImages/Medium/261557.jpg

noob_shooter
April 9, 2010, 12:32 AM
If you shoot right handed the sight goes on the right.

Another option is to put a third ring on the scope forward of the regular forward ring and put a two-sided rail on its base, and put the red dot on that rail.

i'm afraid... what if the extracted shells hit the holosight....?? i'm right handed, but just kinda tried it out holding my AR and i think i feel okay with the holosight on the left. (if i have to)

Zak Smith
April 9, 2010, 01:01 AM
Well you locate the optic so the brass doesn't hit it. If you put it forward of the forward regular scope ring it'll be out of the way anyway.

NWCP
April 9, 2010, 02:56 AM
Why not use BUIS with a 1x, or 2x tactical scope rather than another optic that can fail? Just curious.

Coronach
April 9, 2010, 07:06 AM
Dots are significantly faster.

Ragnar Danneskjold
April 9, 2010, 07:46 AM
To the OP, not just yes, but hell yes. As soon as I can afford it. The sight off on an angle is kida goofy though. Right now I just have an EoTech, no magnification. When I get the funds, I plan on getting a 3x ACOG with the RMR 0x red dot on top. Used one at a carbine class courtesy of some fine gentlemen from Trijicon, and I fell in love. With the sight. Not...er...nevermind.

Bartholomew Roberts
April 9, 2010, 11:07 AM
noob, take a look at the Larue LT-724 mount. If you have any room at all on the upper receiver, it is small enough to mount on the front of the upper receiver alongside a scope and give you a red dot with just a slight cant of the rifle.

I did a review of my Aimpoint T1 and TA11 combination here:
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=385824

http://thefiringline.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=54136&d=1258916088

I'd tried the Trijicon TA31 ACOG with a Docter mounted on top. I thought I was going to love it; but the red dot just sat way too high for my tastes. Because of all the time I had with the ACOG, under stress, I would drive to the ACOG instead of the red dot (and close in shooting for time means I was always on the wrong sight). With the off-angle mount, I keep the same cheekweld I use with irons and scopes and just cant the rifle left a bit. My weak eye lets me see "through" the TA11, so it is like having a perfectly unobstructed field of view.

So far the only downside is that when using the suppressor, my face is right behind the ejection port and I get a big faceful of gas with every shot while it is canted. As problems go though, it is a minor one. Just reminds me of the MP5SD every time I pull the trigger :)

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