Who still wants an ACR?


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Hammerhead6814
April 9, 2010, 09:34 PM
I think it's well documented at this point that I am extremely anti- AR-15. In fact if my level of love for America could be judged by how much I love AR-15's, Glenn Beck could call me a Communist and be right. My affection for the .223 round the AR-15 shoots is also documented as "blasphemous" by the Remington faithful.

That being said, who on earth still wants an ACR?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/31/Bushmaster-acr-cropped.jpg

According to sources it will cost between $2000 and $3000 dollars. Twice it's initial reported rate. For that sum that could have just as easily bought two Robinson Arms XCR's (http://www.robarm.com/shop.aspx), two to three Rock River Arms Tactical A4's (http://www.rockriverarms.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_id=218), one and 4/5's RRA PPS (http://www.rockriverarms.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_id=442), or a good used Sedan (http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?ct=u&car_id=277398220&dealer_id=510383&car_year=2001&rdm=1270858960821&lastStartYear=1981&model=&num_records=25&systime=&make2=&highlightFirstMakeModel=&start_year=1981&keywordsfyc=&keywordsrep=&engine=&certified=&body_code=0&fuel=&awsp=false&search_type=used&distance=100&marketZipError=false&search_lang=en&sownerid=619814&showZipError=y&make=CHEV&keywords_display=&color=&page_location=findacar%3A%3Aispsearchform&min_price=&drive=&default_sort=priceDESC&seller_type=b&max_mileage=&style_flag=1&sort_type=priceDESC&address=64068&advanced=&end_year=2011&doors=&transmission=&max_price=3000&cardist=10&standard=false).

Entry level ACR's come with steel barrels, shoot .223, and have no after-market features yet available. Bushmaster touts the ACR's "modularity", the word that has the entire gun-owning world a-buzz with excitement. But one can't help but to wonder what the AR-15 has done wrong here! Not only has it been modular for nearly a decade, the now common rail systems on AR's give you all the added gear you could want! It can also switch calibers with the push of a button and the swapping of a upper receiver.

So what exactly will you be buying when you buy an ACR that you couldn't get from another weapon already on the market? If it's swapping calibers it's the AR-15 winning hands-down. If it's calibers, the AR-15 is even being made in 6.5 Grendel and 7.62x39. If it's ergonomics the AR-15 has been handy for over 50 years and counting. If it's price, they range from $600 "I built it myself", to $2000 ".1 MOA at 700 yards". If it's reliability, piston kits and uppers are being made by over 12 manufacturers. Nowhere does my arch-nemesis fail to do something the ACR only claims to do.

Come to think of it, the Sedan even beats out the ACR! It does after all cost less to fill-up, uses more synthetic materials, and is definitely larger caliber.

So seeing as my amazing brain can't figure this out, I'm throwing the thought to the open sewer. The internet. Whether it's here or on another forum, I want to hear what YOU, yes YOU, think the ACR is worth and is doing well.

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Zerodefect
April 9, 2010, 09:36 PM
Nope. For bigger money, I expect a bigger Ar. I allready have a carbine or 4.

The LMT .308 and Larue OBR .308 are here, I want one of those instead! The OBR's are allready looking like a way sub MOA weapon. 1000yds easy.......1 mile has been done allready.

HorseSoldier
April 9, 2010, 09:38 PM
On the ACR topic, I agree -- for the price point, it doesn't seem to do much for any potential segment of the market.

happygeek
April 9, 2010, 09:55 PM
Meh, I've already got a evil black semi-auto with a gas piston, quad rail, and folding buttstock. I could get pretty much everything on my wish list right now for 2 to 3 grand. Let's see

$100 to 150 cheap red dot for the 22LR
$500 Aimpoint M68
$400 3x magnifier for the Aimpoint
$150 scope mount for the M1A
$300 to 400 scope for the M1A

(only $1,500 so far)

$400 to 500 AK
$100 Mosin

Only $2,000 so I still have a grand to spend on ammo for said AK and Mosin

Now, would I rather have a ACR with no ammo or all that stuff I just listed. Hmmm, let me think ...

RX-178
April 9, 2010, 09:58 PM
Bean counters. They see a huge demand for tacticool rifles, and pump the price to ridiculous levels to capitalize without spending much production money.

So instead of lots of people getting them, only a few REALLY insane gun nuts shell out... and the bean counters get a terrific bottom line on the whole deal.

Zerodefect
April 9, 2010, 10:03 PM
How many jellybeans can I get for the cost of an ACR?

:p

Quentin
April 9, 2010, 10:11 PM
AR for me, not a second thought.

paintballdude902
April 9, 2010, 10:30 PM
i want one, id be willing to pay about 1500 but not any more

Mags
April 9, 2010, 10:35 PM
^+1, I want one but not paying over 1500$.

Daemon688
April 9, 2010, 11:23 PM
I was excited....then I realized it does nothing new. Price needs to go down and I need to have 7.62x39.

hoodfu
April 9, 2010, 11:57 PM
Me. Have one in FDE on order, should have it inside of a month. Reasons include: love the ergonomics/trigger hand controls, piston based so hopefully less cleaning than my ARs, takes GI mags, important for a pre-ban guy like me, and best of all, my company is paying for it so price isn't a hangup. I have first hand experience with bushmasters excellent customer service. I know that I'll have a well functioning gun for a long time even if something goes wrong with it.

New video of it btw:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nz0v8SHAe9o

Driftertank
April 9, 2010, 11:58 PM
Target demographic: Modern Warfare gamer fanboys with more money than sense, who have ALL seen that the ACR is teh shiz for multiplayer battle! (I still prefer the FAL)

DoubleTapDrew
April 10, 2010, 12:21 AM
The beancounters didn't get the memo that the buying frenzy was over and people are no longer paying $1,700 for AR-15s.
I'd like one but only if it was much closer to $1,000.

Tommygunn
April 10, 2010, 12:25 AM
I have a M4orgery, a Sig 556, so I pretty much have that caliber covered. A WASR 10 and an M-1 Carbine cover a couple other military calibers.
I have nothing against the ACR, but I really don't need it, plus, as others point out, the price is ridiculous. I just don't want to pay that much. For another type of rifle, in a bigger caliber, if it's worth it, yeah ... but I really just don't need the ACR.

Birddog1911
April 10, 2010, 12:30 AM
If I'm gonna spend that kind of money (I'm not), I'd get another M1A and a FAL, or a darned nice LRB M14. I think I could even get an M1D for that price. I could even buy more than 200 Mosins! Okay, I like wood and steel, not plastic and aluminum. I want a gun that will be around in 100 years, not made from recycled materials, just to be recycled again! ;)

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
April 10, 2010, 12:32 AM
Sure, I'll take one. Oh, you mean pay for it? Nah... Cool rifle, worth about 65% of it's price.

RobMoore
April 10, 2010, 12:34 AM
When it costs $1200ish (and not for the "basic" stripped down model), I'll take a hammer to the piggy bank. Until then, not a chance bushmaster.

Zak Smith
April 10, 2010, 12:40 AM
Let me address several of the point in this thread.

1. The AR-15 is a solid, proven platform that is accurate, versatile, and reliable for fighting and competition. It is effective. AR-15 "hate" is usually an irrational reaction to some peripheral factor by people who don't shoot fighting carbines very much.

2. The argument that "I can buy X A's for the cost of one B" is often misguided. I could buy 20 Lorcins for the price of a competition-level SV pistol, but that isn't relevant to which is the better choice for competition shooting.

3. There are qualitative differences in feature-set between the ACR, XCR, AR-15, various new AR-15 "systems", etc. A key portion of the overall effectiveness of a weapon depends on its specific features, how they were implemented, and how well they work. Sometimes subtle differences in operating design changes performance to a palpable degree.

4. MSRP's of roughly $2600 and $3000 are very high for a fighting carbine. I expect to see them for sale for only $200 over dealer once they are readily available.

5. The price of everything is going up (look at your grocery bill vs. 3 years ago). It also took an extra, what, year or 18 months, to bring it to market. Like it or not, that's R&D time that has to be paid for.

I would personally love to get my hands on one. I am curious to see how it can be made to perform vs. the best 3-Gun rifles, with some tuning, and I think it'd be a great basis for a suppressed SBR. But I haven't ordered one yet either.

-z

marktx
April 10, 2010, 12:46 AM
Got my hands on an ACR today and it's a nice looking rifle though I really wasn't impressed enough with it to consider getting one for ~$2400. Also looked at the SCAR and it's a bit on the high side as well, also waiting for the black ones to hit the market as I don't care for the tan color.

Pick of the day was the Kel Tec RFB, first time I had seen one in person and I liked it a lot. They were asking $1800 and I'm holding out for Bud's to get them in stock.

Birddog1911
April 10, 2010, 12:52 AM
Zak, if you do buy one, I'd love to see you do a write up on what you put it through.

And for the record, I love the AR-15 too; was just being facetious. Some of my best memories are behind M16A2, s/n 6099916.

Hammerhead6814
April 10, 2010, 03:00 AM
Let me address several of the point in this thread.

1. The AR-15 is a solid, proven platform that is accurate, versatile, and reliable for fighting and competition. It is effective. AR-15 "hate" is usually an irrational reaction to some peripheral factor by people who don't shoot fighting carbines very much.

2. The argument that "I can buy X A's for the cost of one B" is often misguided. I could buy 20 Lorcins for the price of a competition-level SV pistol, but that isn't relevant to which is the better choice for competition shooting.

3. There are qualitative differences in feature-set between the ACR, XCR, AR-15, various new AR-15 "systems", etc. A key portion of the overall effectiveness of a weapon depends on its specific features, how they were implemented, and how well they work. Sometimes subtle differences in operating design changes performance to a palpable degree.

4. MSRP's of roughly $2600 and $3000 are very high for a fighting carbine. I expect to see them for sale for only $200 over dealer once they are readily available.

5. The price of everything is going up (look at your grocery bill vs. 3 years ago). It also took an extra, what, year or 18 months, to bring it to market. Like it or not, that's R&D time that has to be paid for.

I would personally love to get my hands on one. I am curious to see how it can be made to perform vs. the best 3-Gun rifles, with some tuning, and I think it'd be a great basis for a suppressed SBR. But I haven't ordered one yet either.

-z

1. I've shot a WASR-10/63, Saiga, AR-10, M1A (Springfield), Mini-14's, SU-16s, and several AR's. I liked everything but the AR's.

2. Never compare an AR-15 to a Lorcin again. Your making my AR-15 hate feel like AR-15 love. Also You couldn't possibly throw the XCR into the Lorcin category.

3. Name a single feature of the ACR that has a clear advantage over the AR-15 that after-market parts or recent (in the past five years) manufacturer techniques haven't solved.

4. Dealer pricing usually is a maximum $500 less than MSRP. I cite the Mini-14. If the ACR is comparable, then we'll see the ACR or, bare minimum, $2000.

5. The price of AR's has gone down. Last year it was roughly a grand for anything but a DPMS sportical. Today you can get AR's for $650-$700 and they aren't made by Olympic! SU-16's have remained static, in the $500-$600 range. Mini-14's are everywhere, like normal. M1A's cost what they did three years ago (about a grand). Magpul already had the R&D, Bushmaster took two years just to build machinery for it.

What prices went up that haven't come back down? My grocery bill in '07 was roughly $100 a week, and I know I paid $95-ish last week. Tomorrow I'll check again, but if prices went up and stayed up then I'm Elvis Presley.

noob_shooter
April 10, 2010, 03:10 AM
what a rip off. I'd rather spend 2000-3000 buying 2-3 guns...

Zak Smith
April 10, 2010, 03:18 AM
Keeping with the point by point style.

1. I didn't say you couldn't dislike an AR-15. I said it was usually an irrational reaction to a peripheral factor because the platform is proven across the board, including against those you list.

2. You miss the point. If the scale of comparison was off, perhaps I should have said one SV 2011 or four Glocks.

3. Side charging handle placed correctly, to name one. In addition, it puts together "most" of the things we've had an opportunity to learn about fighting carbines using various platforms including the AR-15 over the last 30+ years. (That's the reason we're seeing similar overall feature-sets in the ACR and SCAR.) There are AR-15 uppers that have an monolithic, unified top rail, and there are ambi controls and more efficient controls, and there are side-folding AR-15 uppers, but there is an additional benefit in having essentially all of them put together in an integrated design.

4. The MSRP is more than $500 more than the dealer price. I logged in to a distributor when they were first available to see.

5. Using products involved in market "bubbles" to determine inflation rates is problematic. There was an AR-15 bubble that started in late 2008 and continued through late 2009. Then there was a glut as people stopped panic buying.

Murphys Law
April 10, 2010, 10:49 AM
Sorry Elvis, I have to agree with Zak. Beer prices have definitely gone up since 2007 and unfortunately have not come back down :D

Prion
April 10, 2010, 11:05 AM
I like the looks of it but the support and parts supply for AR's is hard to beat. If it's going strong and prices drop in a couple years I'll pick one up. Zak is right, definitely an improvement over the AR platform in many respects. AR's still rock though!

sv51macross
April 10, 2010, 12:06 PM
I like the ACR, but I have to ask; what does it do that that RobArms XCR and ParaOrdnance TTR don't?

hoodfu
April 10, 2010, 02:06 PM
I consider aesthetics to be a considerable portion of what I like about a gun. IMHO it looks much nicer than an XCR.

HGUNHNTR
April 10, 2010, 02:15 PM
I am considering one. If it had a lightweight pencil barrel my mind would be made up.

BrianB
April 10, 2010, 02:23 PM
High prices on new products should never surprise anybody. This phenomenon happens with every new product. When they are brand new, the production is relatively low, but fixed costs have to be covered--that means high prices initially.

Once volume picks up, prices drop. This has happened with cell phones, computers, TV, and radio. If you love the ACR, just pray for massive sales to people wealthier/less frugal than you.

Hammerhead6814
April 10, 2010, 02:32 PM
Sorry Elvis, I have to agree with Zak. Beer prices have definitely gone up since 2007 and unfortunately have not come back down

Well thank you, thank you very much. For responding. What kind of beer are you drinking? Woodchuck was $6.95 a six-pack in '07 in KCMO. It's like $6.99 now (using Price-Chopper as a reference for price).

Once volume picks up, prices drop. This has happened with cell phones, computers, TV, and radio. If you love the ACR, just pray for massive sales to people wealthier/less frugal than you.

Even then however, what are you getting that an AR-15 doesn't already do? Or the XCR for that matter? Everything listed on the ACR sans the ridiculous caliber changing process has been done by the XCR reliably for years! AR's change caliber easier as well. Less steps.

I like the ACR, but I have to ask; what does it do that that RobArms XCR and ParaOrdnance TTR don't?

That's the whole point of the thread.

RX-178
April 10, 2010, 02:44 PM
Like I said, the only thing I have against the ACR now is the bean-counter inflated price. It's not just fixed cost. Remington and Bushmaster are owned by the same capital management corporation now.

For all the personality failings of Robarm's owner, he is a gun person and prices the XCRs quite reasonably considering the low-volume high quality assembly and production. Bushmaster and Remington WILL gouge for however much they think people will pay, and going by the market demand for tacticool EBRs, they're figuring people will pay quite a bit.

None of this reflects poorly upon the design of the weapon, however. I've followed this thing since it was just the 'Masada'. This is Magpul's take on the kind of features a modern fighting carbine should have, and their record on products for fighting carbines is absolutely glowing.

From what I recall, their original intent was to design a piston upper for an AR-15, but finally took it further than that until it was a different weapon all together.

-v-
April 10, 2010, 03:55 PM
If the ACR came down to say $1100 or so range, I'd want one. But, for $2000-3000, thats a big "Pass" on my part.

RockyMtnTactical
April 10, 2010, 04:55 PM
I want a Masada. The ACR is an abomination.

RobMoore
April 10, 2010, 10:39 PM
VCRs pushed into 4 digit prices when new, now you can get one for $20.

If you want an ACR but don't want to pay the premium, wait for all the mall-ninjas with more cash than sense to buy them up and pay for the R&D. We'll get them at a reasonable price in a couple years or less.

Kingofthehill
April 10, 2010, 10:57 PM
It would have to be hitting 1200-1400 to buy one. I see them flopping honestly. I don't think they will really be accepted into the private sector. I think for just coming out, they have already left a bad taste in people's mouth.

JOe

Prion
April 11, 2010, 12:07 AM
Actually got to fondle one today after posting on this thread. Very nice feel to it. Want one more now but will wait. It was marked at $2375.

Carter
April 11, 2010, 12:10 AM
I think they want so much cause the military would rather buy the SCAR...and so would I for that price point.

Hani Pasha
April 11, 2010, 01:29 AM
I want one very badly. Just not for $2,400. Let it come down to $1,700, and then I'll be interested in buying.

shibby
April 11, 2010, 02:13 AM
Too much cost for not enough advantage over my AR.

Id rather buy another AR, piston kit, and one of those new buffer spring assemblies that help with carrier tilt, and spend half the cost of the ACR or less.

yongxingfreesty
May 11, 2010, 07:51 PM
nope. for that price, id look more towards the scar, but only if SBR version is available.

Snakum
May 12, 2010, 03:33 AM
Considering LMT's modular 308 has proven absolutely bulletproof reliable, has shown 1/2 MOA accuracy, and retails for around $2500 ... in my humble opinion the ACR is dead in the water for all but the novelty-seeking folks with too much money.

Zerodefect
May 12, 2010, 08:45 AM
I'll wait for a Masada edition to come out. Or until stripped recievers and aftermarket furniture come. The 16" should have rifle length rails IMO.

I doubt any of that will ever happen though. Shrubby killed a good prototype.

blitzen
May 12, 2010, 01:02 PM
I looked an ACR over the other day at Sportsmans Whse. ($2300.00 fixed stock)
I think it will do everything an XCR will do, but it seems like a rather flimsy copy when compairing the two.
For that price I'll find something better to do with my money.

Z-Michigan
May 12, 2010, 01:23 PM
I would take an ACR for $1000... maybe.

Mind you, $1100 gets you an FAL with a forged, milled receiver (DSA STG-58), $1400 gets you a nice M1A, and $1200-1400 gets you a really really nice M4gery. And someone pointed out that LMT's .308 is around $2500.

guitarguy1
May 12, 2010, 02:24 PM
People always want to have something new and shiny, and are willing to pay top dollar for it, regardless of the condition the product touts and actually delivers.

Personally, I'm happy with my Dan Wesson .357 (circa 70's) 5 inch barrel with combat grips and 150 grain hydroshocks, my buck shot loaded Mossberg 500, and my Savage 93R17 plinker/light hunting rifle. I figure that between the three, theres not much that can get at me without getting at least banged up first. I will probably pick up a 1911 and a .308 rifle in the future, but Im perfectly happy with my older revolver and my two other toys

GunsBeerFreedom
May 12, 2010, 02:27 PM
I'll get one eventually. Hopefully long after the prices come down. If by some strange cosmic event that prices don't go down, it'll still be at least 2-4 years.

That being said I want one as a novelty item, not as a serious duty rifle. I have a FAL and a Saiga for that.

CoRoMo
May 12, 2010, 02:34 PM
I want one, but I can't afford one. I can see all the benefits of the package. Maybe someday I'll get a deal on a used one.

coloradokevin
May 12, 2010, 02:54 PM
Well, it may show some innovative features, but I'm sure not going to buy one for anywhere near that price. A lot of folks bemoan the current AR-15 platform, but it has always worked well for me, and I see no reason to change at this point.

Darthbauer
May 12, 2010, 07:57 PM
I'll buy one in a year after they get all the bugs worked out.

AmEngRifles
July 1, 2010, 12:31 AM
Ya know why these products are coming out at such high prices don't ya!? If ANY manufacturer has hopes of ever realizing a GOVERNMENT CONTRACT, they (A) have to develop these things on their own dime AND, (B) then not sell them to you or John Q. Public for anything less than the government would pay....soooo, they are relatively high due to the fact Uncle same doesn't want to see the same thing Bushmaster just tried to whack them for $2,500 each, on sale at Supersports for $1,400.00!! Got it? :-)

By the way, do you know the US Government gets their M249s for $3,600 each? Guns is the business to be in! I know there are some heavy duty expensive machines that make those babies, but come on, what happened to the price advantages of stamped and bent steel and plastic molded parts?

Bean counters are more involved in the equation that many realize. At least our government seems to recognize quality. I guess when you are paying millions or billions per ship, plane, submarine, a $3,600 dollar gun seems like a Bargain!

TechBrute
July 1, 2010, 01:17 AM
I want one, and I don't mind paying a couple grand for one.

HOWEVER...

The company that designed it, Magpul, is known for half baked executions. The M93 stock, for example. It was supposed to have several different lower configurations. I bought one, and they were never released. The Masada, er, ACR, is supposed to have multiple lowers, multiple stocks, multiple fore ends, multiple barrels, and multiple calibers. Until I see ANY of these things, I'll just keep my money.

*Before any Magpul fanboys get their panties in a wad, relax, I probably have more Magpul gear than you do.

kwelz
July 1, 2010, 02:49 AM
I can't say I agree that Magpul has a history of half baked executions. The ACR was pretty much ruined by Bushmaster/Cerberus.

TechBrute
July 1, 2010, 10:09 AM
I can't say I agree that Magpul has a history of half baked executions. The ACR was pretty much ruined by Bushmaster/Cerberus.

I don't know the details of the deal, and unless you work for either of the companies, I kind of doubt you do, too. Magpul was having trouble bringing the rifle to market years before Cerebus got involved. I don't doubt that Cerebus added a whole new level of SNAFU to the deal, though.

All of this is opinion based on Magpul's track record. I am not involved in the industry.

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