Well...(&#^%@$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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Texas Moon
April 10, 2010, 07:09 PM
Big Brown Truck of Happiness dropped off another package.
This time it was TRESO nipples for the 1860 Army that was giving me fits last week.
Installed the new nipples and headed to the range.
Another very frustrating day with this piece. :(
Started out getting some very erratic ignition. At first I couldn't figure it out.
Some shots were almost squibs and some in the same cylinder were full power.
I was loading 20grns of 2Fg, a lubed wad, .454 round ball, capped with a Remington #10.
After a couple of cylinders switched the caps to CCI #11, same thing.
Swapped to some .457 balls(thinking the looser roundballs were moving foward under recoil), same thing.
Swapped wads and ignition improved!!!!!! WTHeck!!??!!?? :confused:
Still wasn't "feeling" right on ignition so swapped powder to some 3Fg. This helped a lot too. I still can't believe the powder was bad?
The new TRESO nipples seemed to work pretty good. Gun didn't jam up once from cap pieces.
Then the hand spring broke. :cuss:
VTI is getting another call from me. Sheeesh...at this rate I'll be putting their kids thru college.

Any of you folks guns break the hand spring?

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goon
April 10, 2010, 07:35 PM
How old is your gun? If you bought it new I'd complain and at least get a replacement part.

For erratic ignition, I think maybe your powder is somehow getting contaminated. I've noticed that with mine a couple times during the first cylinder at the range and I'm assuming that I didn't get all the oil out of the cylinder those couple times. You also should make sure you're getting the charges compressed the same amount in each chamber - I've screwed that up before too.
Also, stick with FFFg - that's what a .44 caliber is supposed to use. I think only guns bigger than .50 caliber are supposed to use FFg. And 20 grains is kind of a light load in a .44 so it might be that it's such a light charge that it's not getting compressed properly during loading - resulting in maybe erratic ignition. (Hopefully someone else has an idea on that ... Anyone?). I shoot 30 grains all the time in my Remington but it works fine with 25 grains too and that's about as low as I'd feel the need to go with it. I may actually go with that from now on just to save powder and reduce fouling.

kwhi43@kc.rr.com
April 10, 2010, 07:35 PM
Yea, mine broke on my Remmy. I will add, that's the only one in 40 years of
shootin these things.

Bluehawk
April 10, 2010, 07:45 PM
FFg is a little harder to ignite because it's a coarser grain and FFFg is what ya are supposed to be useing. You can also try a different brand of percussion caps.
Who is VTI?

tripe1917
April 10, 2010, 07:57 PM
I once had problems with the lube in Wonder Wads melting into the powder. I now make my own and have no problems.

Texas Moon
April 10, 2010, 09:04 PM
The gun is brand new. Got it from Dixie about 3 weeks ago.
Only fired a few rounds out of it last week. Had to quit because of cap pieces jamming the action down inside the frame.
The board recommended to change the nipples. That greatly helped with the jamming.
Didn't have the erratic ignition problem last week either. The powder is kept in the can with lid on tight. I dunno? Somehow it got damp maybe?

VTI is a mail order parts place. http://vtigunparts.com/

mykeal
April 10, 2010, 10:18 PM
Can't be sure about the inconsistent ignition. What brand of powder? Were you shooting 777 - it is sensitive to overcompression and will act like this if compressed too hard.

Some possibilities:

Oil/grease left in chambers from cleaning - not likely since problem occurred more than once and after successful firings, unless you cleaned the chambers between loadings.

Wads overloaded with lube - homemade or purchased?

Contaminated powder - unlikely if container was kept tightly capped. Humid day?

There's a clue in the 2f vs 3f performance, but I don't see what it means yet. 2f was 'more contaminated' than 3f was, perhaps?

Glad the Treso's helped.

Hand spring failures are not uncommon, but no way should a brand new one fail as quickly as that one did. Dixie should replace it.

goon
April 10, 2010, 10:34 PM
Yep, I'd call Dixie Gun Works before you put any money into it. There is no way a new gun shouldn't still be under warranty.

arcticap
April 10, 2010, 11:07 PM
Some shots were almost squibs and some in the same cylinder were full power. I was loading 20grns of 2Fg,

And 20 grains is kind of a light load in a .44 so it might be that it's such a light charge that it's not getting compressed properly during loading - resulting in maybe erratic ignition.

I agree that only loading 20 grains could be the problem.

ClemBert
April 10, 2010, 11:42 PM
I'm thinking 23 grains of 3Fg is probably the lowest load to go with on that .44 caliber. 25 - 30 grains is probably the sweet spot range.

mykeal
April 11, 2010, 07:14 AM
There is no way a new gun shouldn't still be under warranty. There is no warranty on these guns. You are essentially at the mercy of the suttler's good will. Dixie has a good but not excellent reputation for customer service, although it's been falling off a bit the last few years.
And 20 grains is kind of a light load in a .44 so it might be that it's such a light charge that it's not getting compressed properly during loading - resulting in maybe erratic ignition. (Hopefully someone else has an idea on that ... Anyone?). I agree with arcticap, you've got a good idea here. I've shot as low as 15 gr, loaded with a cylinder loader because the loading lever wouldn't seat the ball on the powder, and had no problem. But if the powder load is light and not getting compressed the same each time the burning curve could be varying a great deal each time. The more I think about inconsistent compression the more that makes sense.

Texas Moon
April 11, 2010, 09:05 AM
Ok, I'll give them a call and see what they say.

And I'll increase the loading when it gets repaired.

Thanks for the advice.

goon
April 11, 2010, 10:12 AM
FWIW - my Uberti Remington from Cimarron Arms (bought through Buffalo Arms) also had a problem within the first thirty shots. The loading latch lever fell off. Several calls to Cimarron's gunsmith left me with a still broken gun and no service or even a return call. All I wanted was maybe another catch to file down and install.
I wound up peening the existing one and the dovetail for it in the barrel, then putting a drop of loctite on it and reinstalling (someone on here suggested this fix). Seems solid now and I've put about sixty more shots through it without problems.
Still... new guns should not fall apart after thirty shots. And customer service people should provide some.

My next C&B Uberti will either be bought from a forum member on here who is in good standing or from Taylor's - because I understand that they have a very good return policy.

Hellgate
April 11, 2010, 04:11 PM
Once the gun has fired 6 rounds but continues to behave erratically, it is not likely due to oil in the chambers. Most likely the 20gr charge is not enough to compact the powder firmly against the flash hole so only a few or no grains are presented for ignition. I've had the same problem when I've used not quite enough powder. Easiest solution is to use more powder. Also, a thicker wad or use TWO wads or a filler such as corn meal or cream of wheat under the ball with or without the wad. For a while when I used a filler I noticed the barrel stayed pretty scrubbed clean. One of the reasons I tend to use a nipple pick at each loading is to feel the crunch of the powder grains as I probe into the chamber. No crunch, no or loose powder and I need to seat the ball deeper or shoot it out and start over.

P.S. I've had lots of hand springs break so I always have spares. It has been more of a problem with Colt repros than with the Remmies.

Mountain Jim
April 11, 2010, 04:58 PM
Most likely the 20gr charge is not enough

I shoot 20 grains in my 1860 army all the time with no problems, so folks are barking up the wrong tree when they say this is causing your problem. Most likely your powder has become contaminated, and you were using the wrong powder (2F vs 3F) granulation.

It helps to use filler when using light loads to ensure proper compression, but I have never had the gun fail to fire properly using just a 20 grain load of FFF.

I'd look at your powder.

BHP FAN
April 12, 2010, 12:56 AM
2f will work,but the coarser powder seems to give coarser fouling. 3f would be more better.

rcflint
April 12, 2010, 12:32 PM
Goon, if your Remington is the 5-1/2 inch barrel version, the loading lever catch is supposed to be loose enough in the dovetail to allow it to be removed without tools, otherwise you can't remove the cylinder pin, if you need to.

The 7-1/2 and 8 inch lugs can be locked in as the cylinder pin won't reach them when removing it.

Bluehawk
April 12, 2010, 07:37 PM
If the powder was kept in it's original container and had no holes in it I seriously doubt it could have become contaminated. (I'm referring to real sporting black powder...have never used the substitutes.)

goon
April 12, 2010, 07:53 PM
I've had pyrodex FFFg equivalent somehow get caked from sitting for a few years. It was still sealed up in the original container. I still have it but I'm not sure how it would affect ignition and I'm not sure I'd trust it to shoot it.

RCFlint - mine is a 8" barreled .44. And the latch wasn't push in and out easy, it was open the lever and it falls out on the ground loose. But it didn't get that way until after I'd shot about 30 shots. I love the gun overall - very lovely, lots of fun, lots of history and it draws a crowd every time I take it to the range. People have seen them in pics but never in person and certainly never shot one before. But it would have been nice for someone to have done it right.
Hope the OP gets a good result from Dixie Gun works.

TheRodDoc
April 12, 2010, 11:19 PM
you answered your own question.
It is the lubed wad causing a percentage of that small load to be grease soaked and not fire. You said you changed the type and it worked better. Probably less grease in those.

I don't under stand why you would want to put grease on and in the powder.

Pushing the ball into the cylinder has air trapped under the ball.
As the ball slides down into the chamber that air forces through the grease wad into the powder and that air moves through the powder on out through the nipple. Moving grease deeper into the powder.
when you are compressing that little sponge filled with grease it forces more of the grease out of it in to the powder to. Damageing a good part of that small powder load. The smaller the load the more air you are rushing through that wad and a higher percentage of the powder ruined.
You might get by with out noticing on a larger load for the powder left uncontanminated still produces a large enough boom to satifiy you. But as I have said before not very accurate because each shot will vary. Plus that wad at the muzzle will cause inaccuracy.

Texas Moon
April 16, 2010, 04:31 PM
Its been interesting.

Got in the new parts from VTI.
Took some fitting/filing on the new hand/spring assembly to get it to work.
Been sitting here working on it.
Find that interesting because I've never done that before. A mere six months ago if you'd of asked me if I ever played gunsmith and fitted a revolver lockwork mechanism I would of thought you were crazy.
After getting into these C&B's its actually very interesting. As complicated as it seems its really a very simple machine. State of the Art in 1860! LOL
The gun is back in operation and ready to roll.
Hopefully the weather and the Old Ball&Chain:what: will allow a range trip tomorrow or Sunday.

ClemBert
April 16, 2010, 04:36 PM
The saying goes:

Italian replica firearms make gunsmiths of us all.

Hellgate
April 16, 2010, 10:17 PM
Clembert, right on BROTHER! I've probably owned about 25 and still consider myself a mere "experienced tinkerer".

goon
April 17, 2010, 11:09 AM
Double edged sword here... but I do love the history so I guess when I buy a couple more C&B revolvers, I'll have a good chance of learning a lot more about their engineering than I might really want to. :-/

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