Reloading for friends?


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Shinbone
April 10, 2010, 09:25 PM
What do you guys think of reloading for a friend or two? Good idea or bad idea? I'm sure there's liability issues.
If you do, how much do you usually charge them? (Above and beyond the cost of material, of course.)
Thanks.

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pcwirepro
April 10, 2010, 09:28 PM
Have them buy components and use a little for your rounds? Have them buy the chrony for all to use?
Good to have someone to hang out at the range with.

Sam1911
April 10, 2010, 09:32 PM
Shinbone, you probably should read this thread: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=515800

It is very recent and covers both the liability issues AND the ATF's thoughts on selling reloads and needing an ammo manufacturer's license.

kimbernut
April 10, 2010, 09:32 PM
I still load for my sons but my friends have been converted over to buying their own supplies and loading on my equipment after I feel they are ready. I'm always there for support as needed.

RustyFN
April 10, 2010, 09:36 PM
What do you guys think of reloading for a friend or two? Good idea or bad idea? I'm sure there's liability issues.

Yes, a big risk. For me taking the chance of a friend getting hurt from one of my loads and ending up in court and losing that person as a friend isn't worth it.

If you do, how much do you usually charge them? (Above and beyond the cost of material, of course.)

It would be illegal to sell ammo without a FFL license.

zxcvbob
April 10, 2010, 09:36 PM
I've *given* a box of target reloads to a buddy; they were loaded too light to stabilize from my 4" S&W and were amazingly accurate in his 6". And I'll let someone try shooting my guns at the range if they want, but I warn them that they are reloads. Other than that, no.

It's a bad idea from all kinds of perspectives.

Now if somebody wants a free reloading lesson I'll let them pull the handle on their own loads, and I'll even loan them one of my spare single-stage presses afterwards if they want.

It would be illegal to sell ammo without a FFL license. You also have to register with the State Department (Hillary) and pay a $2200+ fee to make it legal. The appropriate FFL is not enough.

HOWARD J
April 10, 2010, 09:42 PM
I reload or load for my family.
Want to lose a friend????---start reloading for him/her.
NO WAY BROTHER......................................

Sam1911
April 10, 2010, 09:43 PM
I'll post a summation of the possible legal issues, original posted by TexasRifleman:


: Is a person who reloads ammunition required to be licensed as a manufacturer?
Yes, if the person engages in the business of selling or distributing reloads for the purpose of livelihood and profit. No, if the person reloads only for personal use.
Ahh, but there's the trick question. It doesn't say you can't sell ammo, it says you can't "engage in the business of selling or distributing reloads for the purpose of livelihood and profit". That piece you posted is from an FAQ, not the actual law.

There is some ambiguity in the ATF regs quoted as it doesn't address the guy who sells some to a buddy every now in then.
Those terms, "engaged in business" and "purpose of livelihood and profit" are specifically defined in Federal Law. From the wording of Federal Law it would appear to me that selling reloads to a friend who doesn't want to mess with it is clearly "personal use", not "engaged in the business" but go read the statute yourself. It seems pretty clear to me.

18 USC 44

(21) The term "engaged in the busi- ness" means—

(B) as applied to a manufacturer of ammunition, a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to manufac- turing ammunition as a [b]regular course of trade or business]/b] with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the ammunition manufactured;
Quote:
(22) The term "with the principal objective of livelihood and profit" means that the intent underlying the sale or disposition of firearms is pre- dominantly one of obtaining livelihood and pecuniary gain, as opposed to other intents, such as improving or liq- uidating a personal firearms collection:
http://www.atf.gov/publications/down...f-p-5300-4.pdf

Certainly at some point it crosses that line, but there seems to be plenty of room for occasional stuff. Not a lawyer, just an English Speaker.

Take it for what it's worth.

oneounceload
April 10, 2010, 09:45 PM
If you do, how much do you usually charge them? (Above and beyond the cost of material, of course.)

As mentioned above - it's a way to get a quick trip to the Graybar Hotel

Sow them how, let them buy components and have a reloading party where they can get to load their own using your press, etc.

R.Clem
April 10, 2010, 09:54 PM
I used to reload for my friends, BUT, I had access to the firearm I was loading for (theirs) and WE spent many hours both reloading and shooting to make sure that the round was safe and accurate.
2 of these guys come to my home and I supervise while they reload, 3 others have invested in their own equipment and now reload at their homes. The fellows who use my equipment will leave the remaining powder or primer, maybe even some bullets for the equipment use, I do not ask for this, they just do it.
I have a chrony and most of the stuff everyone who has been reloading for 40+ years has accumulated.
This is a winning situation. It does require much time and is handled the same as if you where loading for your new gun, starting loads and working up, that is why you need to have access to the firearm.

Ray

Shinbone
April 10, 2010, 10:03 PM
I understand. Thanks much.

Mags
April 11, 2010, 12:02 AM
Me and my buddy normally shoot together and collect his and my brass. He comes over whenever he wants and loads his own on my press and just buys components that he consumes off me at cost and uses our range brass.

lgbloader
April 11, 2010, 12:42 AM
I have offered my Man cave & equipment to any friend or relative I have. I would teach any of them, anytime. As long as they bring over their own components. You would be surprised how many of them believed that just because I assembled my own ammunition, that it entitles them to it for free too. They learned or they bought ammo from the store. It's as simple as that. Even my Dad and brothers play by these rules.

I make ammo for me, my wife, and my son, that's it.

LGB

Jesse Heywood
April 11, 2010, 02:08 AM
I reload for all my friends for free. Since I don't have any friends :eek: I have to shoot it all myself. :D

sniper5
April 11, 2010, 01:55 PM
I reload for myself and my wife. Period. I trust her with a gun and she trusts me with her ammo. Neither one of us takes that trust lightly.

ScratchnDent
April 11, 2010, 02:13 PM
I only reload for my Dad, and I just give him the ammo for free. He only uses maybe 100 rounds of 30/30 and 3-400 rounds of .357 per year.

I have a buddy that wanted to reload for his rifle, so he bought a set of dies and components and I showed him the ropes on my equipment.

bds
April 11, 2010, 02:25 PM
I think many of us "MAY" reload for family and "very close" friends we shoot together, but won't admit to it for obvious reasons. :rolleyes:

My concern grew when a new shooter at the range was complaining about too much recoil/muzzle flash with the reloads he was shooting (apparently too much powder charge) and we suggested he take them back to whoever reloaded them. His reply was he got it from another person who SOLD him the reloads - he had no idea how hot/mild the load was and willing to risk his firearm/body parts. We all have seen and heard stories of gun blowing up/not shooting right from unknown reloads they bought at the gun show for a steal of a price ... they all ended up crying about how they should never have done that (sadly, they could have bought a full reloading setup for the price they paid for several hundred rounds).

Most of us at the range will only allow others to shoot our reloads if we are present with our reloads and we take back the leftover rounds until the next shooting session.

Of course, we are very eager to share our sentiment about someone interested in learning to reload about how to start.

Damon555
April 11, 2010, 02:49 PM
I give away a lot of loaded ammunition to family and friends. I never sell it. Most of the people that I give it to know how to reload also.....I take great pride in my hand crafted ammunition and trust my life with it. In my opinion if you can't handle that you shouldn't be reloading. The initial equipment investment really never pays off....you just shoot much more.

I also will let fellow shooters I don't know shoot my reloads while I'm present. Factory ammo can be loaded pretty hot sometimes. When some people shoot nice soft target 38 special loads they really enjoy it. It's a good way to help combat flinching.

Use discretion when giving permission to shoot your ammo...But remember when you reload to check and recheck everything to ensure it's safely within the limits that SAAMI has specified for that particular load.

No legal advice here.....that aspect was very well covered in a previous post.

Win1892
April 11, 2010, 03:57 PM
I don't load for friends but what I will do is give them a couple of boxes when we are all shooting. I don't want my stuff out of my sight, and to some degree, control.

Letting someone shoot 100 rounds of my 45ACP to match the 100 they brought doubles their fun and still contributes to my brass stash. It also saves them $40-50.

StretchNM
April 11, 2010, 04:33 PM
I reload only for my enemys.

Jesse Heywood
April 11, 2010, 04:42 PM
I reload only for my enemys.

So you stay up all night and never get caught up?

1911Tuner
April 11, 2010, 04:52 PM
Bad idea. I don't recommend it.

First, it's illegal. It's probably unenforceable if the practice is kept among friends...but today's friend may be tomorrow's enemy. That's a lesson that I learned a long time ago.

The liability is a more pressing concern. You may trust your friend not to sue you into the poorhouse, and he probably would pinky promise that he wouldn't do it under any circumstances.

But...

If something goes wrong, and he's seriously injured and unable to work...and one of his cars has been repossessed and the bank is about to foreclose on his house...and his kids' college fund is evaporating...your assets will start to look pretty good to him. He may not want to sue, but knowing that the relief to his family's suffering is an appointment with a lawyer away...he'll have to reassess his priorities.

The best way is to bring your range pard to your shop and show him how to do it, and supervise him closely while he reloads his own. Don't provide any components. Let him buy them and bring them to the shop. That way, you are absolved of any responsibility.

buck460XVR
April 11, 2010, 06:47 PM
I don't reload per-say for my friends. I would never reload for a profit without the proper licenses and liability insurance. Would I give a buddy a box of reloads to try or would I load up a few components up for him that he has bought? Sure, no sweat. I also take many of my friends and family out and let them shoot my reloads and my guns.....and vice versa. I don't load hot and I'm careful about the way I reload. I too trust my reloading practices and I trust my family and friends. Am I taking a risk in doing so? Maybe, but in my opinion the risk is minuscule compared to the pleasure and enjoyment derived from shooting with friends and family.

ar10
April 11, 2010, 08:31 PM
I took 5 relatives to the range last Saturday. all from out of town. I let them shoot my CZ527, M1A, M1, AR10, .40SW, .45GAP, .38SW, .45APC, and 9mm, and I have reload ammo for all of them.
For them I paid 211.00 for boxed ammo from Gander Mt. They shot the boxed ammo. I shot my reloads.
As a reminder to everyone. No gun is alike even if its from the same manufacturer. I measure my reloads for each of my guns not someone else's. and have no clue what someone else's gun has been through or how its treated.

James2
April 11, 2010, 08:59 PM
The first time I reloaded for another I learned some lessons. 1. Do not ever load for someone unless he leaves you the rifle so you can work up a suitable load. 2. Do not ever just use the "pet load" he gives you. No kaboom, but I ended up pulling 99 bullets.

On the other hand, I had one friend who used to come over and load with me. We would do some for him and some for me then go rabbit hunting. This worked very well for both of us.

The only way I will load for a friend now is if he comes over and participates, and learns about the process and actually gets hands on.

pcwirepro
April 11, 2010, 11:00 PM
There's all kinds of reloading for profit around here :http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=218&ad=10353715&cat=379&lpid= and I doubt they are legal. I wouldn't shoot non-factory ammo from a stranger if he gave it to me.

1SOW
April 11, 2010, 11:31 PM
I reload for myself and occassionally my son. He also reloads but works long hours.

I have occassionally let someone try out my handgun with my reloads, but don't make a habit of it. I ask them to provide the ammo.

Regardless of legal/liability issues, I won't reload for 'friends'. If my reloads were to damage a friend's gun or maybe worse, where can you go from there?

the_right_reverend
April 12, 2010, 07:28 PM
Used to 25 years ago got tired of hearing that the spastic screw couldn't hit squat with my ammo.......

Now days you don't use my equipment, or supplies...... I will gladly loan you a book and advice your what to buy and give you tips


NOTHING MORE:D

flashhole
April 13, 2010, 06:03 PM
the right reverend, just curious about your name. Is there any linkage to a Don Imus radio character that he used to do in association with the First Church of the Gooey Death and Discount House of Worship?

brasskeeper
April 14, 2010, 07:55 PM
I never have and never will reload ammo for sombody else. Ive shown friends how to reload but they reload their own ammo.

Kawabuggy
April 22, 2010, 02:25 PM
Anybody in Houston need access to reloading equipment? Come on over! I don't charge anything, and am willing to show teach you anything you want to know, or just turn you loose if you already have experience. I have a progressive, a turret, and the ole Rockchucker to work on, Chargemaster combo, traditional scales if you are the traditional type, concentricity checkers, neck-turning tools, case prep equipment, etc;

Sell my reloads? Now that would just be stupid, and illegal.

orrwdd
April 22, 2010, 02:32 PM
Regardless of legal/liability issues, I won't reload for 'friends'. If my reloads were to damage a friend's gun or maybe worse, where can you go from there?

This is the most profound statement! I wouldn't want to have even the possibility of causing a friend these kind of problems.

Bill

MachIVshooter
April 22, 2010, 04:38 PM
I'll do it on a very limited basis for people I really trust. Usually, it's because they want a load that isn't commercially available and don't have the time, money or confidence to handload themselves. But I'm also even more cautious and attentive than usual (and that's alot), and I won't go within 10% of max loads.

Doing it occasionally is no more "engaging in the business of manufacturing and distribution of ammunition" than fixing a leaky pipe for a friend of a friend for a small amount of monetary consideration makes you a legitimate plumber.

As well, I never actually "charge" them. But they have all "tipped" (in other words, an arbitrary figure they voluntarily offered) me for my time. I'm not too proud to accept a $50 tip if I spent 5 or 6 hours carefully sizing cases, trimming and turning necks, hand-measuring charges and checking seating depth for free bore on a hundred precision rifle cartridges.

Start cranking out thousands of rounds and selling them for substantial profit at gun shows, however, and you'd better have a license.

flashhole
April 22, 2010, 06:29 PM
Anybody in Houston need access to reloading equipment? Come on over! I don't charge anything, and am willing to show teach you anything you want to know, or just turn you loose if you already have experience. I have a progressive, a turret, and the ole Rockchucker to work on, Chargemaster combo, traditional scales if you are the traditional type, concentricity checkers, neck-turning tools, case prep equipment, etc;

Same for me in Owego, NY. Happy to help however I can.

zoom6zoom
April 22, 2010, 08:28 PM
It would be illegal to sell ammo without a FFL license.
Manufacture, yes. Sell, no.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/general.html
Q: What kinds of ammunition are covered by the GCA?

Ammunition includes cartridge cases, primers, bullets or propellant powder designed for use in any firearm other than an antique firearm.

Items NOT covered include blank ammunition, tear gas ammunition, pellets and nonmetallic shotgun hulls without primers.

Generally, no records are required for ammunition transactions. However, information about the disposition of armor piercing ammunition is required to be entered into a record by importers, manufacturers, and collectors.

A license is not required for dealers in ammunition only.

[18 U.S.C. 921(a)(17) and 922(b)(5), 27 CFR 478.11 and 478.125]

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