.25-.308? What the heck!


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WYcoyote
April 11, 2010, 10:46 PM
Why in the world is this not a factory caliber?
It sure seems to me like the .25-.308 would really fill the gap between a .243 and the .260.
Plus it's fairly hard to find the .260 and even the 7mm-08.
So most of your choices in a short action are .243 or .308.
Come on, ammo and gunmakers, give us some options.
Would anyone else buy a 25-08?

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Maverick223
April 11, 2010, 10:51 PM
Because .260Rem. is pretty much better in every way (and .243Win. takes care of the rest). Not much of a gap between the 6mm (actually closer to 6.2mm) and 6.5mm.

:)

Ridgerunner665
April 11, 2010, 10:53 PM
I tried one out several years ago (25 Souper)...it is a fine round, but not enough of an improvement over the 257 Roberts to catch on (at least thats what I blame it on)

NCsmitty
April 11, 2010, 10:55 PM
It's a wildcat called the 25 Souper, but the 257 Roberts is a bit better anyway.



NCsmitty

Welding Rod
April 11, 2010, 11:49 PM
I think he is joking (though I am not positive!) : )

Zak Smith
April 12, 2010, 12:49 AM
.243 is popular as a varmint round. .308 is popular as a general purpose hunting round. .260 ammo is available if you look for it. 7mm-08 is under-rated. It would be hard to make a case for the .25-08 in the market, it's so full already. The .257 Roberts is a great round, but doesn't fit in an American "short action" (.308).

That said, I've thought about putting together a .25-08 for a light hunting rifle. If there were a high-BC approx 120-130gr bullet available, it could rival or beat .260 ballistics for long-range.

Ridgerunner665
April 12, 2010, 12:52 AM
Yep...back when I played around with the 25 Souper, the Remington 122 grain bullet was still available. (there may be better .257 bullets these days, I haven't messed with any .25's in a while)

Zak Smith
April 12, 2010, 12:57 AM
Berger has a 115 with 0.466 BC - I'd like to see one around 0.6

Ridgerunner665
April 12, 2010, 12:58 AM
I can't remember what the BC was on the 122, probably have it in some old notes at home...pretty sure it was .5 or better though.

natman
April 12, 2010, 02:40 AM
Why in the world is this not a factory caliber?
It sure seems to me like the .25-.308 would really fill the gap between a .243 and the .260.
Less than 1/2 of a millimeter in that "gap". Plus in addition to competition above (260) and below (243), a 25-08 would have to face competition from established .25 cartridges such as the 250 Savage, 257 Roberts and 25-06.

This area is already too crowded. Not really room for one more.

MCgunner
April 12, 2010, 09:59 AM
I'll keep my .257 Roberts, thanks. It's a nice, light little short action Remington M722.

IT'S NOT NEEDED. WE HAVE TOO MANY CALIBERS AS IT IS! IT'S BEEN DONE BEFORE!

JMHO...:D

Sam1911
April 12, 2010, 11:20 AM
Considering the bewildering array of rifle cartridges available today, I can't really imagine how anyone would ever conclude we have a "gap" left large enough to wiggle a fine hair through.

Just from Midway's site, here's their list of available cartridge brass:

17 Remington Fireball
17 Remington
20 Tactical
204 Ruger
5.6x33 Rimmed Rook
22 Hornet
218 Bee
221 Fireball
222 Remington
222 Rimmed
223 Remington
222 Remington Magnum
220 Russian
219 Zipper
225 Winchester
224 Weatherby Magnum
22-250 Remington
223 Winchester Super Short Magnum
220 Swift
5.6x52mm Rimmed (22 Savage High-Power)
6x45mm (6mm-223 Remington)
6mm PPC
6mm BR (Bench Rest)
6mm XC
243 Winchester
243 Winchester Super Short Magnum
240 Weatherby Magnum
6mm Remington
6mm-06 Springfield
6.17 Spitfire
240 Hawk
244 H&H Magnum
240 H&H Magnum
240 Gibbs
25-20 Single Shot
256 Winchester Magnum
25-21 Stevens
25-25 Stevens
25-36 Marlin
25-35 WCF
25 Remington
250 Savage
257 Roberts
25-06 Remington
25 Gibbs
25 Winchester Super Short Magnum
257 Weatherby Magnum
6.53 Scramjet
257 STW
6.5x53 Rimmed
6.5 Grendel
6.5mm Japanese
6.5mm Carcano
6.5x54mm Mannlicher-Schoenauer
6.5 Creedmoor
6.5x47mm Lapua
260 Remington
6.5x55mm Swedish Mauser
6.5mm-257 Roberts
6.5x58mm Rimmed Sauer
256 Newton
6.5mm-284 Winchester (Norma)
6.71 Phantom
6.5mm-06 A-Square
6.5mm Remington Magnum
264 Hawk
6.5mm Gibbs
264 Winchester Magnum
6.5mm STW
6.5mm-300 Weatherby Magnum
6.8mm Remington SPC
270 Winchester
270 Winchester Short Magnum
270 Gibbs
270 Ackley Magnum
270 Weatherby Magnum
270 STW
7x33mm Sako
7mm TCU
7-30 Waters
7mm-08 Remington
7x57mm Rimmed
7x72 Rimmed
7x57mm Mauser (7mm Mauser)
7mm Shooting Times Easterner
7x64mm Brenneke
280 Remington
280 Remington Ackley Improved 40-Degree Shoulder
7mm Gibbs
275 H&H Magnum
7x61mm Sharpe & Hart (7x61mm Super)
7.21 Tomahawk
7mm Remington Short Action Ultra Magnum
7mm Winchester Short Magnum
7mm Remington Magnum
7mm Weatherby Magnum
7mm STW
7mm-300 Weatherby Magnum
7.21 Firebird
7mm Remington Ultra Magnum
7mm Dakota
28-30 Stevens
300 Rook
300 Sherwood
307 Winchester
30 M1 Carbine
30-30 Winchester
30 Remington
303 Savage
308 Marlin Express
300 Savage
30 TC
308 Winchester
7.62x53mm Rimmed
7.62x54mm Rimmed Russian
7.5x55mm Schmidt-Rubin (Swiss)
309 JDJ
30-06 Springfield
30 Gibbs
7.82 Patriot
300 Ruger Compact Magnum
300 Remington Short Action Ultra Magnum
300 Winchester Short Magnum
30-338 Winchester Magnum
308 Norma Magnum
300 H&H Magnum
30 Newton
300 ICL Grizzly
300 Winchester Magnum
300 Weatherby Magnum
300 Dakota
300 Remington Ultra Magnum
7.82 Warbird
30 Super Flanged
30-378 Weatherby Magnum
300 Pegasus
300 Norma Magnum
7.62x39mm Russian
32-20 WCF
303 British
7.7x58mm (Japanese)
7.65mm Argentine Mauser
310 Cadet
8x48mm Rimmed Sauer
8.15x46mm Rimmed (318 Diameter)
8x58mm Rimmed Sauer (318 Diameter)
8x58mm Rimmed
32 Winchester Self-Loading
32-40 WCF
32 Remington
32 Winchester Special
32 Ideal
8x56mm Mannlicher-Schoenauer
8x57mm Mauser (8mm Mauser)
8x57mm JRS Rimmed Mauser
8x60mm Rimmed S Mauser
8mm-06 Springfield
8x64mm Brenneke
320 Hawk
325 Winchester Short Magnum (WSM)
8mm Remington Magnum
8x56mm Rimmed Hungarian Mannlicher
318 Westley Richards
333 Flanged Nitro Express
333 Jeffery Rimless
338 Marlin Express
338 Federal
33 WCF
340 Gibbs
338-06 JDJ
338-06 A-Square
338 Hawk
338 Scovill
8.59 Galaxy
338 Ruger Compact Magnum
338 Winchester Magnum
338 Norma Magnum
338-404 Express
340 Weatherby Magnum
330 Dakota
338 Remington Ultra Magnum
8.59 Titan
338 Lapua Magnum
338-378 Weatherby Magnum
338 Excalibur
35 Winchester
35 Winchester Self-Loading
351 Winchester Self-Loading
9x57mm Mauser (9mm Mauser)
360 Nitro Express
400-350 Nitro Express (350 Rigby)
350 Rigby
356 Winchester
358 Winchester
358 JDJ
35 Gibbs
35 Whelen
350 Remington Magnum
358 Hawk
358 Scovill
358 Norma Magnum
35 Newton
358 Shooting Times Alaskan
350 G&H Magnum
358 Yukon
9.3x57mm Mauser
9.3x62mm Mauser
9.3x82mm Rimmed
9.3x74mm Rimmed
9.3 Sisk, 9.3 Barnes-Sisk
366 DGW
400-360
400-375 Nitro Express
375 Winchester
9.5x47mm Rimmed
38-56 WCF
9.5x56mm Mannlicher-Schoenauer (375 Nitro Express Rimless) (9.5mm Mannlicher-Sch
375 Hawk-Scovill
375 ICL Kodiak
375 H&H Magnum
375 H&H Magnum Ackley Improved
375 Flanged (Rimmed)
375 Ruger
375 Weatherby Magnum
375 JRS Magnum
375 Dakota
375 Remington Ultra Magnum
378 Weatherby Magnum
376 Steyr
38-55 WCF
38-72 WCF
375 Rimless
400 Nitro Express
38-40 WCF
40-60 Marlin
40-70 Sharps
10.15x61mm Jarmann
40-90 Sharps
400 Whelen Basic
400 H&H Magnum
450-400 Nitro Express
405 Basic
401 Winchester Self-Loading
40-65 WCF
40-72 WCF
40-82 WCF
408 Chey-Tac
400 A-Square (400 Pondoro)
411 Hawk Basic
405 Winchester
416 Ruger
416 Taylor
10.57 Meteor
416 Hoffman
416 Weatherby Magnum
416 Rigby
425 Fossdal
404 Jeffery
10.75x65mm Rimmed
10.75x68mm Mauser
44-40 WCF
444 Marlin
425 Express
43 Mauser/Spanish/Egyptian (11x60mm Rimmed Mauser, 11.15x60mm Rimmed Mauser)
11.2x72mm Schuler
43 Werndl
460 Rowland
451 Detonics
500-450
45-100 WCF
45-110 Sharps
45-120 Sharps
45 Basic
450 Bushmaster
45-75 Winchester
577-450 Martini Henry
43 Beaumont
45-90 WCF
458 Socom
45-70 Government
450 Marlin
458 Winchester Magnum
458 Lott
450 Alaskan
450 Watts Magnum
450 Assegai
450 Dakota
460 Short A-Square
450 Number 2 Nitro Express 3-1/2"
450 Magnum Express
450 Nitro Express
460 Weatherby Magnum
465 H&H Magnum
500-465 Nitro Express
461 Gibbs
470 Capstick
470 Mbogo
476 Nitro Express
475 Nitro Express
470 Nitro Express
475 Number 2 Nitro Express
50 Beowulf
577-500 Nitro Express
Belted Magnum Basic
505 Gibbs Magnum
50 Alaskan
50-90 Sharps
500 Nitro Express
500 A-Square Magnum
500 Jeffery
495 A-Square
50 BMG
56-50 Spencer
50-110 Winchester
50-70 Government
50-95 Winchester
12.7x44mm Rimmed Danish
577 Snyder
585 Nyati
577 Nitro Express
577 Tyrannosaur
600 Nitro Express

Whew! That's 322 cartridges spanning just forty-three hundredths of an inch.

And you know what's NUTS? I can think of a few that AREN'T there! (Though, to be honest, there are a LOT there I've never heard of.)

Personally, I think there's too large a gap between .50 BMG and 20 mm, with only 5-10 entries up in that range. :evil:

Maverick223
April 12, 2010, 11:24 AM
And you know what's NUTS? I can think of a few that AREN'T there!Same here...I have some cartridges that aren't on that list. :what:

ArmedBear
April 12, 2010, 11:29 AM
fill the gap between a .243 and the .260.

Oh, yeah, the market is just BEGGING to fill that gap...:p

Seriously, it seems that production rifles I like are available in .243 and .308, and that's it. Maybe you can get one in 7mm-08 if you order it.

The .260 IS the gap filler. Sadly, it's nearly a wildcat when it comes to real-world availability. For what I want, they could toss out everything else in a short action, and just sell rifles chambered in .260. Alas, that's not the case.

oneounceload
April 12, 2010, 11:45 AM
My 7mm BR isn't on that list - it's a great metallic silhouette cartridge, as well as an excellent 250 yard antelope/deer one

ArmedBear
April 12, 2010, 11:49 AM
an excellent 250 yard antelope/deer

Damning with faint praise? I mean, what isn't?

Maverick223
April 12, 2010, 11:59 AM
For what I want, they could toss out everything else in a short action, and just sell rifles chambered in .260.I'll second that. http://forums.nitroexpress.com/images/graemlins/smilies/general/boogie.gif

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
April 12, 2010, 12:14 PM
It was a fairly popular wildcat in the 50s and 60s, in two forms, the .25 Souper, and .257 Durham Jet. IINM, the Souper was the preferred dimensions.

But never caught on enough to be standardized. It, along with the .270-.308, have been "left out" of the very popular .308 family, unlike the .30-06 family, where not much is left out.

What surprises me is that the .260 rem is not more popular than it is, on its own merits, but particularly in light of the fact that there is no ".25-08", AND no ".270-08" on either side of it.

ArmedBear
April 12, 2010, 12:17 PM
the .30-06 family, where not much is left out.


Few or no regular production rifles are available in 6mm-06, .280, 8mm-06, .338-06 or even .35 Whelen. Those that are made, aren't easy to find.

Maverick223
April 12, 2010, 12:37 PM
^or the 6.5mm-06A-Square...or .375Whelen.

:)

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
April 12, 2010, 01:23 PM
AB, hmmm, you have a point. But the .280 and .35 Whelen DO have factory rifles available, if not many, in addition to .30-06, .270, and .25-06. So that's FIVE.

.308 family has .308, 7mm-08, .338 federal, .243, and .260 Rem. Also FIVE. So it's a tie, and they both leave a lot out, just different ones, when it comes to factory chamberings (however limited they may be).

Dirtpile
April 12, 2010, 02:17 PM
It's a wildcat called the 25 Souper, but the 257 Roberts is a bit better anyway.

Too bad the .257 is all but dead these days though.

A .25-08 would probably be too close to the 6.5x55 Swede to be worthwhile anyway.

LeonCarr
April 12, 2010, 02:25 PM
We are too busy developing .300 SuperLoudenBoomer type catridges that have little if any advantage over catridges we have had over 100 years to worry about something like a .25-08 that would be much more useful.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

WYcoyote
April 12, 2010, 05:57 PM
It was a fairly popular wildcat in the 50s and 60s, in two forms, the .25 Souper, and .257 Durham Jet. IINM, the Souper was the preferred dimensions.

But never caught on enough to be standardized. It, along with the .270-.308, have been "left out" of the very popular .308 family, unlike the .30-06 family, where not much is left out.

What surprises me is that the .260 rem is not more popular than it is, on its own merits, but particularly in light of the fact that there is no ".25-08", AND no ".270-08" on either side of it.
Great post expanding on the point I was trying to make.
I can't believe the .260 isn't chambered in more rifles either. How many in .257 Roberts?
How can we buy them if they're not there?
I know about the wildcats, guys.
Was thinking mainly production guns in short action, the .308 family.
The 25-08 would be a good alternative in a SA with a 22" barrel as opposed to a LA 25-06 which begs for a 24" or more, IMHO.

Abel
April 12, 2010, 06:21 PM
And you know what's NUTS? I can think of a few that AREN'T there! (Though, to be honest, there are a LOT there I've never heard of.)


I don't think that the 35 Remington is there.

ArmedBear
April 12, 2010, 06:30 PM
What do you want it for?

For hunting, there's no "difference that makes a difference" vs. the .243. For precision target shooting, there are other 6mm rounds that apparently work extremely well.

WYcoyote
April 12, 2010, 06:55 PM
Considering the bewildering array of rifle cartridges available today, I can't really imagine how anyone would ever conclude we have a "gap" left large enough to wiggle a fine hair through.



Whew! That's 322 cartridges spanning just forty-three hundredths of an inch.

And you know what's NUTS? I can think of a few that AREN'T there! (Though, to be honest, there are a LOT there I've never heard of.)

Personally, I think there's too large a gap between .50 BMG and 20 mm, with only 5-10 entries up in that range. :evil:

Yea, 322,
And currently chambered in one of the most popular rifles of all time,
the Remington Model 700 BDL?
5

(.243,.270, 7mm RM, 30-06, .300RUM) off their website
Great choice.
See my point?

WYcoyote
April 12, 2010, 07:08 PM
What do you want it for?

For hunting, there's no "difference that makes a difference" vs. the .243. For precision target shooting, there are other 6mm rounds that apparently work extremely well.
I do have a .243 and I like it a lot.
I have shot my biggest mule deer and biggest whitetail with it.
I also have a 25-06 with a 22" barrel.
Just think that a 25-08 would be a great combination of the two, and a good option in a short action. It would make a neat deer/varmint caliber.
PS, I would like the .260 too, but it is almost never chambered in production guns.

Sam1911
April 12, 2010, 07:08 PM
Yea, 322,
And currently chambered in one of the most popular rifles of all time,
the Remington Model 700 BDL?
5

(.243,.270, 7mm RM, 30-06, .300RUM) off their website
Great choice.
See my point?

Yeah. I EXACTLY see your point! :) I was going to post something to that effect earlier today. You have to imagine the gun guys in the Remington product development department (or whatever it might be called) looking over the vast list of cartridges and then looking at the pathetic 5-cartridge list of what they produce and just shaking their heads.

How in the world is it that Remington, Winchester, Marlin, Savage/Stevens, FN now, Browning, etc., etc., etc., can sell '?' MILLION new .30-'06s, .270s, and .243s? I mean doesn't every man, woman, and child have one of each by now? (Actually...no...I don't.) And aren't there 4 more in each caliber collecting dust on the dealers' "USED" racks for each grain of sand on the beach?

I'm not ranting, exactly. I don't much CARE what folks choose to buy as long as we get more gun in the hands of more shooters. But I've long since decided that I could shoot for LIFETIMES more without ever even being tempted to buy another standard catalog rifle from any of the major manufacturers. Anything I'd care enough to go buy new would have to be interesting -- which seems to mean that they simply won't make it. And anything "run-of-the-mill" I might want to play with, I could have my pick of probably 50 in an afternoon of scouring the local used racks.

Strange world.

Maverick223
April 12, 2010, 09:07 PM
Anything I'd care enough to go buy new would have to be interesting -- which seems to mean that they simply won't make it. And anything "run-of-the-mill" I might want to play with, I could have my pick of probably 50 in an afternoon of scouring the local used racks.I feel the same way (though I plan to buy a few more factory rifles), the refuse to make the good stuff (like 6x45mm/6mm-223, 6mmSAW, .260Rem., 6.5x55mmSwede, .280Rem., .35Whelen, 9.3x64Brenneke, et al)...if it isn't .223, .243, .270, .308, .30-06 they don't want to build it. I protest! http://forums.nitroexpress.com/images/graemlins/smilies/general/smiley-bs-sign.gif

WYcoyote
April 12, 2010, 09:13 PM
Yes, Sam, you do see my point.
It sure would be refreshing if some progressive thinking gunmaker would fly contrary to the bean counters and offer some unique chamberings in sporting rifle configurations.
I sure would be tempted to get the object of this post, others that blow my hair back are the 6.5-.284, 6.5-06, 6.5 WSM, .280AI.
Guess we just have to bypass the boring big names and get them custom made.
Do I see a switch barrel Savage project in my future?

Maverick223
April 12, 2010, 09:29 PM
It sure would be refreshing if some progressive thinking gunmaker would fly contrary to the bean counters and offer some unique chamberings in sporting rifle configurations.Ruger is about the only one that makes any rifles with non-standard chamberings (mostly for the No. 1, but some for M-77s)...and most are limited production runs.

:)

MCgunner
April 12, 2010, 10:01 PM
If a person wants a .25-08, there's nothing keeping him from having one built and a set of dies made up for it. Should be real easy to neck up .243 brass for it or .260 brass down for it. I mean, if you think it is just the bee's knees.

I have no problem feeding my .257. I can neck 7x57 brass, but I prefer the Winchester +P brass. I push a 100 grain Game King bullet to 3150 fps and it groups 3/4 MOA. It'll push the Hornady 117 Interlock to 3050 fps and group it 1 MOA.

I won a .25-06 about a dozen years ago as a door prize at a local gun show. It was a nice looking BDL Remington. I had the hots for a .308 in a M7 Stainless at the time, found one, made a trade. I didn't feel I needed another .25. Nice gun, but then so is that little M7. I love that thing and the original .308 case ain't a shabby caliber. Why would I want it in .260 or .25-08? I can do anything out to 400 yards with that .308 that I need to get done. At the time, too, there was lots of milsurp brass available in the caliber. I sorta wish I'd bought more of that brass. That brass is thick and I think if you were to neck it to .260, for sure .257", you'd probably have to ream the neck. Works great in .308, though, and fills in my calibers between the .257 Roberts and my 7mm Rem Mag. If I hunted BIG, big game, I might add a .338, but I think I've got about everything I need there considering what I'll ever be able to afford to hunt.

MCgunner
April 12, 2010, 10:05 PM
BTW, you can get about anything you want made in a TC Encore barrel. :D The Savage 110 would be a cheap way to go, too, if money is tight for a custom.

ArmedBear
April 12, 2010, 10:17 PM
It sure would be refreshing if some progressive thinking gunmaker would fly contrary to the bean counters and offer some unique chamberings in sporting rifle configurations.


Cooper lists just about everything you mentioned, and then some. You just can't expect Remington to build cheap production rifles in every imaginable caliber.

Mass production rifles have to focus on calibers that offer a combination of availability and performance. Most people who buy rifles are not obsessed with uncommon cartridges.

WRT Remington, you know, they have made a lot of good cartridges that didn't sell worth crap, including the .244/6mm, the .280/7mm, the .260, and even the 7mm-08, which hasn't sold nearly enough. Why should they indulge the few people with cartridge fetishes, when they have had poor luck selling these not-so-exotic rounds? It wouldn't make sense.

WYcoyote
April 12, 2010, 10:21 PM
Why would I want it in .260 or .25-08? .
Uh... flatter trajectory, lower recoil.

WYcoyote
April 12, 2010, 10:43 PM
Cooper lists just about everything you mentioned, and then some. You just can't expect Remington to build cheap production rifles in every imaginable caliber.

Mass production rifles have to focus on calibers that offer a combination of availability and performance. Most people who buy rifles are not obsessed with uncommon cartridges.

WRT Remington, you know, they have made a lot of good cartridges that didn't sell worth crap, including the .244/6mm, the .280/7mm, the .260, and even the 7mm-08, which hasn't sold nearly enough. Why should they indulge the few people with cartridge fetishes, when they have had poor luck selling these not-so-exotic rounds? It wouldn't make sense.

Cooper is indeed one maker chambering "outside the box".

I don't really expect Remington to offer every imaginable caliber, but I would like for them to stand by their own introductions a little better.

MCgunner
April 12, 2010, 11:11 PM
Uh... flatter trajectory, lower recoil.

I ain't no novice and that little M7 is easy on my shoulder. I've fired 375 H&H and goose hunt with a single shot 10 gauge. If I was a girly man, I'd worry about recoil. The .308 ain't squat for recoil even in a light rifle.

As for the trajectory, the .308 is good to MY limit, 400 yards. I won't shoot farther than that. Anyway, comparing it to my 7mm Rem Mag (you consider that "flat" don't ya?), the 308 has a maximum point blank range (3") of 273 yards. Zeroed at 232 yards, it is 14" low at 400 yards. I've made shots on coyotes at near this range. The secret is a good laser range finder.

A 150 game king from the 7 mag at 3150 fps muzzle velocity (the 308 starts out at 2773) is sighted in at 250 yard zero, is 12.9" low at 400 yards. See much difference here? Now, I ran the ballistics through my own exterior ballistics program which does not calculate Max PBR, but looks like it's around 275-280 yards. Hmmm.....lots a difference there, eh? Ballistic coefficient on that bullet is .532, on the .308 (a 150 Nosler BT) is .435.

Just to toss in the .257 Roberts....100 grain game king BC=.388...mean velocity 3147 fps... zero range 250 yards .... drop at 400 yards 14.67 inches.

Are you seeing something I'm not, here? I went through all this ballistics stuff big time 30 years ago, when I originally had a Timex sinclair computer with a 16K add on memory, then got a Tandy Color 3 with 125K, big time upgrade. :rolleyes: I finally came to the conclusion that it was all interesting, taught me a lot, but one thing it taught me is that there just ain't a hell of a lot of difference between the "flat shooting" calibers. Sure, you compare the 7 mag to a flat nose .30-30, you can see the difference. But, you're telling me that 2" roughly of extra drop at 400 yards is a deal killer? I don't think so. The main deal killer for me is the energy on target at 400 yards between the above 3 calibers. To me, that's what makes the 7 mag the better elk gun, not the trajectory. At 400 yards, the .308 is putting down 1357 ft lbs. The .257 is at 1064 ft lbs. The 7mm Rem Mag is pushing 1974 ft lbs. I consider 1500 ft lbs quite as low as I wanna go on an elk sized animal. For deer, any of the three, though the .257 is getting pretty weak, still packin' over 1000 ft lbs at that range.

The thing I've found about the .308, though, is that it has plenty of penetration even with that nosler and I have a barnes load for it. It doesn't damage meat up close like the 7 does, and it expands readily. The .257 has never failed me, but doesn't have the meat in the bullet that the .308 does when I see a 250 lb + hog.

I just think .308 is hard to beat by any other caliber based on its case. I have no use for the .260 or .243 or whatever. Just me, though. I'm sure the .260 is quite capable, got great BCs and SDs goin' for it, but I'll keep my .308.

wyohome
April 12, 2010, 11:22 PM
I ain't no novice and that little M7 is easy on my shoulder

WYcoyote is a little, bitty, dainty feller. ;)

MCgunner
April 12, 2010, 11:30 PM
Mmmm, cub, you're sayin'? :D I think I get it, now.

Maverick223
April 12, 2010, 11:33 PM
Are you seeing something I'm not, here?I am, you're are missing the important factor...the wind. You can always factor in the unchanging (not really, but for hunting it essentially is) elevation, even with a punkin' chunker like the .45-70Govt. OTOH the wind is ever changing (unless you only shoot/hunt on dead calm days). ...but that doesn't really help the case for the .25cals now does it? :p

MCgunner
April 12, 2010, 11:42 PM
I calculate wind drift at 10 mph, but wasn't discussing that in a debate about "flat trajectory". Anyway, if it's a windy day, I'll keep it to 300 or less. Wind is something I don't want to count on my ability to dope when I might wound a critter. 400 yards is my "good conditions" limit. I can shoot up hill and down hill, too, but I'd prefer to keep the ranges shorter for that, too, in case I make a little error in my math as I don't carry a calculator with me nor a protractor of some kind to measure angle, and don't yet own one of those fancy range finders that calculate that for you. :D All these factors are why I have a self imposed range limit and why I say the .308 is flat enough.

I only have 300 yards range I can practice on and I have to back up and cheat when no one else is at the range to do that, shoot off the hood of my car or something. 200 yards is all our range actually goes, but I can get 300 if I back up to the gate, done that before. But, really, the hunting I'm doing now, 150 yards is about all I can see. I'll get back out to New Mexico again, some day, before I die or get too old to mess with it, I hope.

mljdeckard
April 12, 2010, 11:45 PM
I agree, I would rather find an AR-10 upper in .257 Roberts.

MCgunner
April 13, 2010, 12:16 AM
Mmm, dang, that might get me interested in ARs after all these years.....or not. :D

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