Is this safe?? Planes flying in the background at a range..


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noob_shooter
April 11, 2010, 11:59 PM
I was at the shooting range and about maybe no more than 1000 yards out and 1000 ft high (could be less), planes are flying across the range where we're putting bullets. Turned out, there's an airport just a few miles East of the range.

Those planes were 50-150 passenger planes. I was like, "***?" :scrutiny: I know it's unlikely to accidentally discharge a weapon up into the air like that or having someone intentionally do it, but still....

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kostyanj
April 12, 2010, 12:12 AM
There's an airport less than 1.5 miles away from my range, and there's planes flying around all the time. Although, it's a trap range so shotshell doesn't travel nearly as far as rifle or pistol ammo.

marktx
April 12, 2010, 12:13 AM
Similar situation at my local range and I didn't think anything of it until I went out on a rainy evening to shoot some tracers. Even though you might not hear them buzzing away there are lots of ricochets that fly up at the most random angles even when shooting into a dirt berm. I won't shoot anymore if there are planes visible on approach, the odds of actually hitting a plane are very low but in my mind it's better to pause shooting for a minute than take the risk.

noob_shooter
April 12, 2010, 12:18 AM
here is a pic

http://www.hmongimage.com/posts/plane-gun-range.jpg

i took this photo. See the white in the sky? yes, that's the plane

DougW
April 12, 2010, 12:21 AM
Looks a lot further than 1000 feet. That would be 333 yards (approx), and I assume the back stop is 100 yards. Only my observation though.

noob_shooter
April 12, 2010, 12:25 AM
In the center of the image where you see those plie wood targets and steel plates(hard to see), that's 200 yards. The range goes up to 300 yards but can't see it in this picture.

Matt-J2
April 12, 2010, 12:26 AM
Twin Cities Rod and Gun?
I'm fairly certain the planes from the airport there are out of reach at the point they go 'across' the backdrop. Shooting out in Shiocton, we're even closer to the little airstrip there. I keep an eye out for em, but I don't worry overmuch about it unless it looks like they're coming in real low.

noob_shooter
April 12, 2010, 12:29 AM
Matt-J2,

yes.. i go to that range (good range) often and that was the first time i've seen a few planes across the range. I just thought it was weird how planes are so close like that..

Matt-J2
April 12, 2010, 12:36 AM
I like the range as well. Shiocton is nice in that there's no rangemaster, doesn't have rapid fire restrictions, and only asks for a $3 donation each trip. It's also open year round, which I like since I shoot year round. Of course, the lack of rangemaster has it's downfalls, like people jumping forward of the firing line to pick up their brass without saying anything.
At any rate, Outagamie Regional Airport is about a mile north and several miles east. So dependent on flight path upon take-off, the airliners could be at least that far away. If they follow the path of the runway, then they'll be headed northwest. Could swing closer if they're headed south, of course. I wouldn't worry about it too much, they should be well out of range at that location. It is kind off odd to see them moving around the edges of your vision though.

Oh, and to the rear of the Shiocton range by a few hundred yards is the rest of the local park, like a playground, swimming pond, softball fields(those are further off a bit), etc.

Z-Michigan
April 12, 2010, 12:42 AM
The plane in your photo is a mile or more away (1760 yards+) and well over 1000ft AGL. Probably 2000 AGL or more. Incidentally, pattern altitude on approach for that size plane is usually 2000 or 2500 ft AGL depending on the airport.

There is no way your shooting would be a danger to it unless you are using a SAM or some sort of WWII era anti-aircraft artillery (e.g. 88mm and up).

It's good to be conscious of all safety concerns, but I don't think there's any concern here. And I wouldn't want to give the anti's some new false grounds for trying to shut down the range.

PigButtons
April 12, 2010, 01:12 AM
I used to be an Air Traffic Controller, and the FFA thoroughly checks everything within 5 miles of an airport handling commercial traffic. If they haven't shut you down it is because you are not a threat to the aircraft, period. Good to ask questions though.

DIM
April 12, 2010, 01:32 AM
Unless you are shooting 50 bmg or 20 mm planes are safe :D

LoneCoon
April 12, 2010, 01:36 AM
There's an airport less than 1.5 miles away from my range, and there's planes flying around all the time. Although, it's a trap range so shotshell doesn't travel nearly as far as rifle or pistol ammo.
That's nothing. One of our local trap ranges in Vandalia butts up against the airport.

Sediment
April 12, 2010, 01:58 AM
That's nothing. One of our local trap ranges in Vandalia butts up against the airport.

I got you beat, across the street for the range in an airport. And a skydiving school. Given the winds on some days the divers come in for a landing right over the skeet and trap fields. They're low enough you can see the OMG :what: look on their faces. I've yet to hear about any of them getting hit but I know it scares the crap out of Mom and Dad on their wedding anniversary to see a shotgun blasting clays apart just a few hundred feet below.

Maverick223
April 12, 2010, 02:15 AM
Not a chance...that plane is a lot further out. If it were 1000yds out and 1000ft high it would just about knock you off the firing line at take-off (exaggeration...but it wouldn't be pleasant to say the least). Nothing to worry about from what I see in the photo...except for maybe a few birds flying nearby.

:)

NWCP
April 12, 2010, 03:19 AM
You're not going to hit that bird with aimed fire much less accidental. It's a lot further away from the range than it appears.

happygeek
April 12, 2010, 03:33 AM
Were there any terrorists there trying to down a commercial airliner with a .50? :uhoh:

Cracks me up when the antis say that. Yes, planes were downed with .50s and .30s ... on auto. M2s and M1919s had AA versions and both were put in B17s, if I'm not badly mistaken.

Oic0
April 12, 2010, 04:01 AM
Another thought crosses my mind. The only way to cover those thousands of yards would be to aim up at an angle right? well that target is already up at an angle so you lose some of that ability. How much of the optimal 45* is already eaten up?

Gritacular
April 12, 2010, 04:06 AM
would it not be more likley for the bullet to cause damage when it lands?

DIM
April 12, 2010, 04:11 AM
I have little Cessnas and crop dusters flying over my range, at much lower altitudes, but non of them got down yet, not by bullets firing at the range at least, the picture of b-17 down by flak I deleted sorry flak, my joke wasn't recognized

oasis618
April 12, 2010, 04:13 AM
If you hit that plane while shooting at those targets...I'd say you're doing something wrong.

redman900
April 12, 2010, 05:46 AM
I shoot at range 14 rod and gun club at ft. dix n.j. and mcguire ab is right next door. planes flying around all the time ,plus next to our range is a .50 cal range and they fire full auto. no planes down as of yet

Drako
April 12, 2010, 07:28 AM
no expert but if I had to guess that plain is atleast 2 to 3 miles out. and at that distance and its speed. my opinion not many worries but its always good to be cautious of suroundings.

joed
April 12, 2010, 08:50 AM
If you think you can hit that plane in the photo you need to learn about ballistics. No offense intended but that is a very long way off even for an anti aircraft gun.

DIM
April 12, 2010, 09:15 AM
If you have any sign of these guys at the range, then yes planes flying at lower altitudes might become endangered :D
http://www.yaplakal.com/uploads/post-3-12688437259976.jpg

By the way this is not Russian KPV, this is Browning M2E50

Tully M. Pick
April 12, 2010, 09:50 AM
Twin City Rod And Gun!

I shoot trap there, summer and winter leagues. No worries about hitting the planes.

Like Matt said, you have to keep an eye out at Shiocton, though. I've been out there a few times where pilots have buzzed the range within spitting distance. Usually we just wave and continue on once they've cleared the area.

Owen
April 12, 2010, 09:51 AM
That's nothing. One of our local trap ranges in Vandalia butts up against the airport.

I presume you are talking about the old site for the Grand American? A trap line about half a mile to a mile long, and maybe 700 yards from the taxiway at Dayton airport? that place always freaked me out.

TenDriver
April 12, 2010, 10:01 AM
Different aspect of this...

I was flying into Hilton Head one night, and while coming over Parris Island I inadvertently found their target range. We didn't get hit with anything, but had a pretty cool show. Flood lights came on at the firing line, then lots of tracer fire going downrange for less than a minute. Lights off and ceasefire. It was VERY cool to see! I happened to be looking in the right place to see it start to finish. I didn't notice anything ricocheting but we were around 3 to 5000 ft.

Check the history of the .50 BMG. Pretty much every American aircraft used it in WWII out of wing or nose mounted Browning .50 machine guns. The British relied on Browning .303s supplemented with 20mm cannons.

Acera
April 12, 2010, 11:07 AM
Sometimes checking a map is your best choice to make these decisions. After looking at googleearth I noted a couple of things.

First it is almost 3 miles to the airport.
Second your range does not face the airport.

Pretty easy to see that there is no conflict from this picture.

Big sky, little bullet....................






http://i494.photobucket.com/albums/rr301/300Acera/rangeairport.jpg?t=1271081051

Z-Michigan
April 12, 2010, 11:18 AM
Unless you are shooting 50 bmg or 20 mm planes are safe

Not to be the fun police but keep in mind anti's can read this board too. There is NO WAY you could hit that plane with a .50 BMG, not even if you had the full-auto quadmount setup. It is too far away. 20mm would have a tiny remote chance but we're talking 1 in a million, maybe, tops. (And of course, 20mm is a "destructive device" anyway.)

Maverick223
April 12, 2010, 11:25 AM
How much of the optimal 45* is already eaten up?Little off topic, but 45 isn't optimal, the optimal angle varies due to the BC, but is always less than 45.

:)

jobu07
April 12, 2010, 12:12 PM
I think I was a bigger threat to the planes last weekend while I was playing golf on a course next to the airport! :D

737Driver
April 12, 2010, 12:24 PM
Different aspect of this...

I was flying into Hilton Head one night, and while coming over Parris Island I inadvertently found their target range. We didn't get hit with anything, but had a pretty cool show. Flood lights came on at the firing line, then lots of tracer fire going downrange for less than a minute. Lights off and ceasefire. It was VERY cool to see! I happened to be looking in the right place to see it start to finish. I didn't notice anything ricocheting but we were around 3 to 5000 ft.

Check the history of the .50 BMG. Pretty much every American aircraft used it in WWII out of wing or nose mounted Browning .50 machine guns. The British relied on Browning .303s supplemented with 20mm cannons.
Ten Driver was that in the ATR or the Dash? Used to drive the dash in and out of hilton head myself. Lots of fun things to see over the carolina's at night from the front office!

ny32182
April 12, 2010, 12:27 PM
You'd need a surface to air missile to have any chance.

That thing is WAY further than 1000 yards, and WAY higher than 1000 ft. The runway it lands on is probably longer than 1000 yards.

Uncle Mike
April 12, 2010, 12:34 PM
I'm sure the approach plates for that airport in the vicinity of your range indicate a MSA of at least 5000 FT. while passing the range! lol hehehehe

benEzra
April 12, 2010, 01:54 PM
Little off topic, but 45 isn't optimal, the optimal angle varies due to the BC, but is always less than 45.
Yup. For most rounds, maximum range occurs around 30 elevation. That's because gravity exerts far less force on rifle and pistol bullets than aerodynamic drag does, so drag plays the dominant role. On the moon, you'd get max range at 45, though.

Maverick223
April 12, 2010, 02:15 PM
For most rounds, maximum range occurs around 30 elevation. That's because gravity exerts far less force on rifle and pistol bullets than aerodynamic drag does, so drag plays the dominant role. On the moon, you'd get max range at 45, though.Yep, with high BCs (such as long boat tailed spitzers) at a lower angle, and poor BCs (like round lead balls) at a greater angle of departure. Average rifle bullet is about 30-35.

:)

RS14
April 12, 2010, 02:27 PM
Check the history of the .50 BMG. Pretty much every American aircraft used it in WWII out of wing or nose mounted Browning .50 machine guns. The British relied on Browning .303s supplemented with 20mm cannons.

Either 8 or 12 .303 Browning machine-guns on the RAF (non-cannon armed) planes, and fire was still considered wasted outside of 500m or so.

darkknight
April 12, 2010, 02:28 PM
Rambo doesn't need a machine gun to down a plane, he can do it with his bare hands.

TIMC
April 12, 2010, 02:37 PM
The odds of you hitting a plane especially a jet moving 500-750 mph is slim to none. We had a big discussion about this at the range I frequent the other day. We are not too many miles from RAFB outside of San Antonio Texas. Last Thursday about 5:30 I looked up and saw Airforce 1 flying over the range with several fighters in tow at about the distance of the plane in your pic. Pretty sure it was the VP because he was at BAMC the day before. That was something new to see aside from the fighters they are always flying over the range.
Even with an accidental shot; by the time the bullet got to the plane there would be such a loss of velocity it probably would be pretty harmless.

XD
April 12, 2010, 02:39 PM
This has also been posted on the ar15 general forum where it has turned into a somewhat epic post.

:scrutiny:

TenDriver
April 12, 2010, 05:37 PM
Rambo doesn't need a machine gun to down a plane, he can do it with his bare hands.
You're thinking of Chuck Norris, who is of course superior to Sylvester Stallone.:D

Chuck Norris while at the firing range missed his target. Once... Out of fear, the bullet did two 180 degree turns and impacted the bullseye of the target as not to anger Mr. Norris.:cool:

Jeremy2171
April 12, 2010, 05:53 PM
Don't sweat it...Obama's helos flew over our range while we were HOT! The helos were over our range fan IN the impact area...

don't think anyone thought to yell "cease fire"...... :rolleyes:

Dave P
April 12, 2010, 06:16 PM
We get hang gliders hanging around downrange from out 600 yard rifle matches. Early in the morning when there is no wind. Maybe 500-1000 yards behind the berm. Not up very high. Port Malabar, FLA.

Ohio Gun Guy
April 12, 2010, 06:51 PM
I was visiting a job-site in Obetz (Columbus, Ohio) when then President Bush "W" was landing very close nearby. Two secret service men came on site, asked us to stop working and clear the scaffold just while the helicopter was overhead. when it came in, it was very low and landed nearby.

Kind of neat, not sure what authority there was to have us do that, but there was no reason to argue. We would have all just watched anyway! The wash kicked up the dust on the site and the 2 secret service guys got a good dusting.....was funny.:cool:

jkingrph
April 12, 2010, 07:15 PM
I grew up in N Louisiana, Ouachita parish. We had an old army air corp range at the local airport,that was on off affair for years until the sheriffs dept took it over back about 1965. They gradually made it into a first class range, max distance 100 yards and eventally a special area with turning targets ect for law enforcement training, otherwise everything else was open to the public.

I frequented it often while in college there, and for years afterward while home on leave from the USAF. Sometimes in the mid nineties, the built a concrete block wall( I later found out was filled with fine gravel) with little windows in front of benches. You sat at bench and shot through the window. The reason was that the FAA had decreed it, after having been in existance since the late 1930's, I think, or at least early 40's as a WWII training base, that someone might shoot an aircraft either landing or taking off, as they passed right behind the berm which was rather tall. In all those years there has never been such an incident. In 1999 there was a strong wind storm that blew the concrete block wall down. I had taken my father out to shoot his rifle and he was not allowed to do so because of FAA requirements imposed at the time.

Short story was the Feds got so restrictive, they closed the range and built a much nicer range across town, much closer to my parents house which makes it a lot more convenient for me. The bad part is they brought along some of the ideas about only shooting rifles from a bench along, so thats the same.

Maverick223
April 12, 2010, 09:45 PM
obama's helos flew over our range while we were hot! The helos were over our range fan in the impact area...don't think anyone thought to yell "cease fire"lol :D

Uncle Mike
April 12, 2010, 09:51 PM
obama's helos flew over our range while we were hot! The helos were over our range fan in the impact area...don't think anyone thought to yell "cease fire"

Fire for effect, baby!

We get hang gliders hanging around downrange from out 600 yard rifle matches. Early in the morning when there is no wind. Maybe 500-1000 yards behind the berm. Not up very high. Port Malabar, FLA.

Pelicans...hand gliders...same thing! Well, they loooook the same through open sights! lol

hadmanysons
April 12, 2010, 11:34 PM
That is nothing man. Municipal Airport runway is ~1 mile away from my range. Cesnas fly literally right over my head at the range, less than 1000 ft above ground.

DIM
April 12, 2010, 11:53 PM
Here is a 20 mm mounted in the back of the pick-up, hmm he got some angle for AA, but mostly to get rid of the tail i presume :scrutiny:

http://www.anzioironworks.com/20mmpedestalproto.jpg

Maverick223
April 13, 2010, 12:07 AM
Swing that beast around too far to the side and he'll have an anti-window rifle. ;)

benEzra
April 13, 2010, 12:30 AM
I've seen MG's mounted in the back of Toyotas in the Third World, but never a 20mm in the back of a Ford dualie.

Would that be a "Texas Technical"? :D

Maverick223
April 13, 2010, 12:39 AM
I've seen MG's mounted in the back of Toyotas in the Third World, but never a 20mm in the back of a Ford dualie.Bad neighborhood. :D ...besides isn't Texas in the Third World (oh, I did it now :neener:)?

DIM
April 13, 2010, 12:51 AM
It's probably fun to shoot, never felt recoil from 20 mm Vulcan... I thought white tails in Texas are armor plated :D

noob_shooter
April 13, 2010, 01:08 AM
okay MODS.. DELETE thread PLEASE!!

Maverick223
April 13, 2010, 01:17 AM
^Don't take it too hard, most everyone is giving you a little ribbin', but that's all it is. I give everyone a hard time...get used to it...or fight back...or both. :neener:

DIM
April 13, 2010, 01:45 AM
OK the reality check.. The aircraft is to far away for a small arms to reach, unless you guys have flak gun in the vicinity or AA battery it just nonsense to talk about gun range posing threat to airliners... But if they were dive bombers diving at close proximity I can open up can of warms... My grand father down few during WW2 one shot sniper riffle that's what he told me...

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