I am a progressive liberal - I think Obama is as leftist


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dogngun
April 13, 2010, 04:54 PM
as Richard Nixon.

I am SURE there are other liberals, Democrats and leftists posting here. I want to encourage ALL of you to join the NRA. They need a large leftist component, larger than what they already have, to become voting members and try to restore it to the fine organization it once was.

I KNOW that at least 50% of all gun owners in the US are liberals, and we have to make our voices heard.

I have been shooting since I was 10, and I'm going on 63. I served in the Army in the late 1960's (1-504 PIR), and have been licensed to carry a firearm for over 15 years.

I want all you democrats to join the NRA.
If you haven't already.

thanks.

mark

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hso
April 13, 2010, 05:10 PM
Mark,

Other than "Join the NRA" exactly what sort of plan are you presenting that other members can follow to support RKBA?

Husaberg Man
April 13, 2010, 05:11 PM
Nixon was obviously not a conservative, but to equate Obama's leftisvism to Nixon seems silly.

What I really want to know though is HOW you "...KNOW that at least 50% of all gun owners in the US are liberals..." I don't really care if you're right or wrong, but I look forward to being entertained by your proof.

Robert
April 13, 2010, 05:19 PM
Being that politics are off limits, is there a plan here? I mean other than join the NRA. How do you plan to go about helping other "leftist" gun owners see the light and join?
I KNOW that at least 50% of all gun owners in the US are liberals
Can you cite your source please?

NG VI
April 13, 2010, 06:10 PM
Good to have you here, there is a conception that being for failed gun control policies is somehow a critical feature of being a liberal, and that is held by people on both sides. In many cases, it isn't inaccurate.

It's good to see someone not fit the mold for typical flaws of one side.

You should do what you can to get others of your persuasion who have never shot to the range.

BaylorWasted
April 13, 2010, 06:47 PM
a "progressive" liberal that likes the 2nd Amendment, isn't that an oxymoron? :p

:D Doesn't matter glad you're here, hopefully there are more leftist that support not only the 2nd Amendment, but the Constitution.

oneounceload
April 13, 2010, 06:47 PM
If you think Obama is a leftist, then you're not.....sounds more like a Libertarian

ILikeLead
April 13, 2010, 07:19 PM
I totally don't believe that 50% of gun owners in the USA are liberals. I think it's more like 10-20 percent.

I only know 1 liberal gun owner.

orionengnr
April 13, 2010, 07:35 PM
I don't know a single one, although I know quite a few and have invited most to the range regularly...no luck so far, but I'll keep trying.

LibShooter
April 13, 2010, 08:03 PM
The 50% figure may be high... but there are a few of us. As a progressive liberal and card carrying Democrat I feel the best way to advocate for the Right to Keep and Bear arms is to show up and get out of the closet. (or the gun safe? :) )

At fundraisers or political events, the question of gun control often comes up. I make it point to belly up to those conversations and let my opinions on the Second Amendment be known. They are sometimes surprised to see a guy with donkey buttons expressing pro-gun opinions. However, since we dems really are a big tent, I usually get a fair hearing. Often, some of my fellow pro-gun progressives hear the conversation, puff up their courage and join the discussion.

I don't know if I'm changing minds, but the talks do offer food for thought.

Floppy_D
April 13, 2010, 08:30 PM
I think hso was hinting that if this doesn't turn activism-oriented (rather than political critiquing) then the thread will be short lived. :)

okespe04
April 13, 2010, 09:14 PM
I encourage every body to join the NRA despite who you voted for.

BeerSleeper
April 13, 2010, 09:18 PM
I KNOW that at least 50% of all gun owners in the US are liberals, and we have to make our voices heard.

But, did you KNOW 50% of people make up half the worlds population?

Did you KNOW there are three kinds of lies? Lies, damned lies, and statistics?

Glad to see you support 2A. Let's try to do it without making up statistics.

ranger335v
April 13, 2010, 09:27 PM
"I am a progressive liberal - "

Somehow, I doubt that. At least not as our professional political liberals and progressives consider themselves. And I REALLY doubt that half America's gun owners are liberals in the current sense.

In fact, MOST conservatives are liberal AND progressive as the dictionary defines the words but that ISN'T the way our reigning political classes think of it; they ARE leftest, statest radicals.

gofastman
April 13, 2010, 09:50 PM
I looked into it(NRA membership), decided its not for me.

cyclopsshooter
April 13, 2010, 09:56 PM
I am a gun totin, Obama votin, liberal that has not joined the NRA

I believe that Obama's personal views are pretty lefty but I also believe that he knows that he is a representative of those who voted for him and those that did not. the lefty wing-nuts are really upset with him

He is a high minded idealist and understands fully the intentions of our founding fathers-

He is acting very moderate, doing what he thinks is best for the American people... No doubt, mistakes will be made but as a US citizen I would rather TRY something and fail rather than do NOTHING and fail-

I agree that there are many many gun owning liberals, though, they might not be as gun nutty as us THR members who have dozens or hundreds of guns... but they still own a firearm of some kind, for whatever reasons

I have many liberal customers at my store (university town) one of their biggest turnoffs toward firearm sports is the extreme right tinfoil hat types saying someone oughta go coon hunting in Washington D.C....

They are right, those anti lefty attitudes do nothing to help our cause... it is a big turn off to me too, but damn... I like guns!


right wing-nuts... flame away :neener:

Salty1
April 13, 2010, 10:05 PM
Personally I have severe doubts that the 50% number has any merit at all, if I was going to take a guesstimate I would think it would be more around 15%, having spent over 50 years of my life in Massachusetts, thankfully I eventually came to my senses and moved to Texas. I believe that 15% would be a stretch . When I hear a call for liberals to take part in groups such as the NRA my first thought is that they will want to attempt to change the direction of such a group by starting with grassroots’ efforts. Liberals by nature have no problem being the squeaky wheel and demanding their voices be heard, as an example look at the way they are trying to discredit the Tea Party movement, they just refuse to accept the facts that main stream America does not agree with their policies and agenda. When I look at the so called liberal states I see anti 2nd Amendment laws that are far left of the average states and the NRA is constantly trying to get reasonable legislation passed to no avail. By all means join the NRA, they can use the funding to continue their hard work in full support of our rights, personally I would like to also see this group work on local issues as well, if in fact 50% of gun owners are liberals then I would expect that the laws in Massachusetts and California would be a great place to start, actions speak louder than words...... Everybody needs to be involved on a local level, not just send in a yearly membership fee and read the magazines when they arrive...........

mljdeckard
April 13, 2010, 10:08 PM
You.......KNOW!?!

cyclopsshooter
April 13, 2010, 10:09 PM
tea party isnt a squeaky wheel wanting its voice heard?

Icewind
April 13, 2010, 10:13 PM
As a veteran it is my duty to vote republican. But of late I have grown very leary of the gun right. I am cancelling my NRA membership when this year's membership expires. Getting to crazy for my liking

kingvillien
April 13, 2010, 10:28 PM
why, what has the NRA/gun right done?

Owen
April 13, 2010, 10:29 PM
crazy how, Mr 3 posts?

mljdeckard
April 13, 2010, 10:33 PM
How do you come to the conclusion that veterans must be republicans, but the NRA is just crazy? That's a brilliant bit of Kramer logic.

outofpractice
April 13, 2010, 10:34 PM
I think the point to this is that we need to concentrate on a reasonable defense of our rights to the 2nd amendment and that's only going to be secured through some moderation or (gasp) give & take. Is it reasonable to hunt quail with an MG42? Unlikely. Is it reasonable to defend your home with an MG42. Just maybe, if you're anachronistic, have a really good perch, don't mind not moving, & deliberately pissed off all of the street gangs on your way home from work each day for the last month. But if you need an MG42 to defend your home, you probably should have spent more time thinking about how to escape. There's a definition of reasonableness somewhere in here, but I'm too drunk to sort it out.

cyclopsshooter
April 13, 2010, 10:41 PM
outofpractice, to some degree I agree with you that some people dont need certain firearms... personally I do not need a fully automatic weapon... I want one, but dont need it-

But where this argument fails (especially in the face of some die hards) is that any ban sets precedence for another ban- if we cant have full auto this year, the argument next year will be that we dont need semi auto...
soon all we will have left would be cap n ball...

the default setting for gun rights is to give NO ground- and I cant say I disagree with that...

jmortimer
April 13, 2010, 10:41 PM
From what research I've seen - i.e. polling data - generic self-identified "democrats" are about 1/3 pro- gun and 2/3 anti-gun. Seeing that self-identified "liberal/progressives" make up about 20% of the population one might estimate that at most 5% to 10% of the 20% self-identified "liberals" would be "pro-gun" - common sense would also dictate such a conclusion. This thread seem to be "troll" based. As for Veterans, they should vote Republican because active duty votes Republican 2/3 to 1/3 democrat so in order to truly support our troops vote how they vote at least for President/Commander in Chief - just simple respect. In every election cycle that I can remember democrats have gone to court to block active duty absentee votes. Few things are worse than that.

outofpractice
April 13, 2010, 10:48 PM
I understand where you're going, Cyclops. We shouldn't renege on the duty to point out when someone strolls/falls down a slippery slope. The trick, I think, is what's reasonable- but that's something that needs (a lot of) work.

cyclopsshooter
April 13, 2010, 10:48 PM
i do not think this is a troll thread, just a thr member venting and hoping some good can happen

if 1/3 of dems are pro gun and 2/3 are anti- i think that middle 1/3 would be turned to pro very quickly if they had just one positive shooting experience... the last 1/3 is as hopeless as the tea party folk...


but that's something that needs (a lot of) work.

that right there is the ONE point that keeps this argument from ever finding common ground... the extremists on both sides will not give any ground

kramer logic

love it!

jmortimer
April 13, 2010, 10:57 PM
The most fertile ground would be self-identified "independents" - If you are a member of a party dedicated to limiting gun rights, i.e. democrats, then I think independents are the best place to spend time and $$$.

sonick808
April 13, 2010, 11:08 PM
gofastman: good thing they're for you! Without them, you wouldnt' be shooting today

I disagree with the NRA often but still pay my dues

I feel that anyone who is "turning in their membership" should also turn in their guns. Why would you want to weaken the ONLY lobby wielding that kind of power to preserve RKBA ? Even if you hated EVERYTHING about them, don't you agree with RKBA ?

It just doesn't make any sense to me. If you like to keep your arms, you should be a member, period

cyclopsshooter
April 13, 2010, 11:10 PM
Churchill said that a fundamentalist is one that won't change his mind and can't change the topic.

I do find the idea of independent candidates tantalizing... but the real problem facing our society is not politicians, but rather a population that screams out for what they (the individual) wants... without any consideration for their fellow citizens-

It has become much easier to hate and turn oneself off than to have empathy and understanding for your neighbor

Americans once prided themselves on their ability to compromise, (a true gift of democratic values )

jfh
April 13, 2010, 11:14 PM
he identified the group that most likely can be influenced on firearms issues.

Now, what's the proposal for an action plan?

Jim H.

don
April 13, 2010, 11:17 PM
Ilikelead, greetings. My name is Don. I am a liberal in the classical sense and am an avid shooter, reloader, hunter and strong supporterof the second amendment. Now you know two.

cyclopsshooter
April 13, 2010, 11:19 PM
The only action we have is to be thoughtful, respectable, responsible gun owners-

teach our values- power grows from the barrel of a rifle- we the people-

without overreacting to the election of a democratic president :banghead:

gofastman
April 13, 2010, 11:20 PM
cyclopsshooter, that was very well said (typed)
However, I would argue that some level of narcissism is not only good, but mandatory for survival.
The world is a much smaller place than it was even 10 years ago, and things are becoming less and less black and white every day, requiring new ideas and thinking. New ideas and thinking scare EVERYONE to some level.

sonik808, thats just fine, they still wont get a dime, or any other support from me.

cyclopsshooter
April 13, 2010, 11:26 PM
there is absolutely nothing wrong with new ideas! the only other option is to sit in the mud and pout

gofastman
April 13, 2010, 11:47 PM
I agree, but it is basic human psychology to fear change and the unknown.

sonick808
April 13, 2010, 11:50 PM
gofast: why not ?

luigi
April 14, 2010, 12:06 AM
FWIW this guy is posting over on DUng trying to get people to come here, and encourage liberals to join the NRA. He seems to think it's a big deal and had quite a bit to say about how nauseatingly Right Wing THR is

UpTheIrons
April 14, 2010, 12:13 AM
I totally don't believe that 50% of gun owners in the USA are liberals. I think it's more like 10-20 percent.

I only know 1 liberal gun owner.

Well, I'm glad that's settled. :rolleyes:

Looks like someone else is making it up as they go along, too. I know several liberal gun owners, so does that mean I can claim the 50% figure is right and you are wrong?

C'mon everyone - this argument isn't helping anything. dogngun is trying to build support in the RKBA community and all 'we' can do is bitch and moan about his (admittedly suspect) statistics?

So what if he IS right? So what if he's wrong? Our ranks MUST grow if we are to keep our arms. That is not in dispute.

Infighting will not help.
Complaining about hunters who don't care about black rifles won't help.
Complaining about black rifle owners who don't like hunters won't help.
Complaining that the NRA is a bunch of doddering goofs won't help.
Complaining that "liberals" are all stoopid about guns won't help.
Complaining that "the right" is paranoid won't help.

Take the "High Road" and be positive about this stuff - take an anti (or a middle of the roader, etc.) to the range and show them why you like this sport so much.

Here endeth the rant. :fire:

UpTheIrons
April 14, 2010, 12:15 AM
FWIW this guy is posting over on DUng trying to get people to come here, and encourage liberals to join the NRA. He seems to think it's a big deal and had quite a bit to say about how nauseatingly Right Wing THR is

After reading some of these replies, I'm starting to wonder if he is right.

ejbrush
April 14, 2010, 12:20 AM
because it is one of the few places where liberals and progressives will actively post on a gun site and stir up the pot a little bit.

The great failure of the internet is that it sets up little echo chambers where we can hide and only hear people who think like us, talk like us, see the world like us. I don't think the RKBA folks can afford to be myopic in this day and age. Numbers like 1/3, 2/3, 99 44/100 get bandied about, but the fact is that unless more young people come into shooting to replace those passing on to their just rewards, we'll become relevant as the Shakers.

Yeah, there is a chunk of the left that would love to see the guns melted into glockenspiels so everyone could sing KumByAh around the campfire. I put their numbers at roughly the same as the number on the right who adamantly believe that getting rid of all taxes will magically make everyone rich enough to light stogies with $100 bills. They are irrelevant - they are loud, they bray like donkeys and they will always be so.

It is the vast middle where the future of shooting will be made or broken. I think the key to winning more people to the sport is to accept that not everyone that is going to come into the sport in the coming years is conservative. I'm a democrat - a liberal - a progressive - and I love to shoot. I love talking about shooting, I love the mechanics of firearms, I love hunting. I'm not much of a killer, and have a large tally of whitetail I've watched through the crosshairs without ever bothering to take off the safety, but that's a personal choice.

I want to feel like I am part of the shooting sports family. What's more useful to that family - more parrots in the echo chamber, or more liberals who work within their party against gun control efforts?

As an aside, this particular progressive looks at President Obama as being at about the same place on the political football field as Richard M. Nixon - on the right side of the field, maybe at the 30 yard line.

AKElroy
April 14, 2010, 12:25 AM
I am a conservative activist, very political, but I spend time here to escape it. I welcome liberal gun activist here. At worst, we add to those defending our rights. At best, from a political standpoint, I see potential allies if/when these rights become threatened. Like the saying goes, there are no athiest in foxholes, and few if any gun owners pulling the lever for anyone intent on depriving them of their liberty, regardless the party.

cyclopsshooter
April 14, 2010, 12:26 AM
The great failure of the internet is that it sets up little echo chambers where we can hide and only hear people who think like us, talk like us, see the world like us.

very apt

Nushif
April 14, 2010, 12:29 AM
Fear not, because all of you know now know (of) one pretty leftwing "liberal." (I guess)
And he loves shooting stuff.

jfh
April 14, 2010, 12:34 AM
who self-identify with different social groups and ideologies. But, that feel-good-ism has little to do with THR's mission statement for posts in activism.

The point is, discussions like this eventually--usually sooner than later--get derailed, either by a) one party who does take offense and offers a smack-down or other snarky comment, or b) a drift into a political argument.

That's why a THR requirement for posting in this 'activism' forum requires a plan. an action plan--without it, this thread will self-destruct and / or be closed.

See this sticky post at the top. (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=270671)

Jim H.

cyclopsshooter
April 14, 2010, 12:39 AM
yeah, it is hard to moderate these kind of threads but sometimes it is fun to play. the mods have my appreciation for letting this one ride this long

dec41971
April 14, 2010, 12:39 AM
I also think there are more lefties on here than most of you will ever guess. They are just not as vocal as the righties. And then there are a bunch in the middle still. No such thing as just one uniform group when it comes to 2A rights. I personally know an extreme righty and a couple of really Lefty guys. You would never guess it, because they mostly act as if they are disinterested, but what I have found is they are just as passionate, just maybe a terd shy compared to those on the right.

Now can we all just get along? Please??:uhoh:

jfh
April 14, 2010, 12:49 AM
Speaking as one who has been through these kinds of discussions before--I've come to the conclusion that they are mostly a waste of time. The "issues" we end up discussing are typically simple excursions in to faulty syllogisms and the terms we use for self-identification are easily deconstructed. The end result is that we can all sit around and feel a slight buzz from our latest pass at kumbaya, sung online. Mental masturbation, no more than that.

At the end of the day, that buzz and $4.00 (or whatever) will buy you a Starbucks coffee. Unless we have definable, behavioral-change goals combined with specific, concrete and discrete, well-organized plans to effect those goals, the discussion belongs over in APS.

Jim H.

goon
April 14, 2010, 01:01 AM
Ilikelead - now counting the OP and me, you know three! :D

I don't know where I fall on the political spectrum, but it ain't conservative.
Not that I have much else to add to the conversation...

cyclopsshooter
April 14, 2010, 01:16 AM
Jim, you don't think the founding fathers mentally masturbated? Look up Franklin's Junto-

Mental masturbation gave birth to the second amendment...

Thinking, discussing, and examining is a good thing!

sonick808
April 14, 2010, 03:20 AM
THR should be free of politics unless it relates directly to firearm legislation.

THR doesn't strike me as right wing, and i'm fiercly independent. The mods do a good job of shutting down egregious political threads.

KM
April 14, 2010, 03:26 AM
I've known quite a few hardcore leftists that were staunch 2A supporters. By hardcore, I mean outright democratic socialists.

Pro's and anti's come in all flavors.

shockwave
April 14, 2010, 06:46 AM
Like the saying goes, there are no athiest in foxholes, and few if any gun owners pulling the lever for anyone intent on depriving them of their liberty, regardless the party.

Correct. Two gentlemen I know and have worked with are about as conservative as you're going to find. Both Catholic, one has a signed photo of Newt on his bookshelf. Both are veterans (one Army, one Navy) and are Fox News faithful. You know who they're going to pull the lever for. And both are dead-set against private ownership of firearms. As a kind of personal activism, I've discussed the matter with them individually, and as they see it, the ordinary citizen simply cannot be trusted with the power that a weapon confers.

It is a massive error to assume that one political party or another is our ally in protection of the Second Amendment. It is huge mistake to think that conservatives are our friends and "libtards" are our foes. That kind of talk here should stop, for all our benefit - it doesn't help and it alienates our friends and allies. The number-one thing we can all do is join the NRA (https://membership.nrahq.org/?CampaignID=nraorg). Beyond that, exercise your rights in a responsible manner and exhibit good conduct. Be supportive of fellow enthusiasts and help new shooters enter our ranks.

hso
April 14, 2010, 07:24 AM
Since no one's interested in actually coming up with any form of planing this one's going to AD.

alsaqr
April 14, 2010, 07:30 AM
It is a massive error to assume that one political party or another is our ally in protection of the Second Amendment. It is huge mistake to think that conservatives are our friends and "libtards" are our foes. That kind of talk here should stop, for all our benefit - it doesn't help and it alienates our friends and allies. The number-one thing we can all do is join the NRA.

Bingo!!!

It is very simplistic to assume that one party has a lock on love for the 2nd Amendment. One must closely study the individual candidate prior to election time. Previous actions by the candidate speak much louder than vague promises to "support your 2nd Amendment rights."

EXAMPLE: The extension of the AWB passed the US senate in 2004. The vote was 52-47.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A22618-2004Mar2.html


Ten Republicans broke party ranks: Lincoln Chafee of Rhode Island, Susan Collins of Maine, Mike DeWine of Ohio, Peter Fitzgerald of Illinois, Judd Gregg of New Hampshire, Richard Lugar of Indiana, Gordon Smith of Oregon, Olympia Snowe of Maine, George Voinovich of Ohio and John Warner of Virginia.

Six Democrats voted against extending the ban: Max Baucus of Montana, Russ Feingold of Wisconsin, Mary Landrieu of Louisiana, Zell Miller of Georgia, Ben Nelson of Nebraska and Harry Reid of Nevada.

UpTheIrons
April 14, 2010, 10:14 AM
Since no one's interested in actually coming up with any form of planing this one's going to AD.

Well, at the risk of keeping this thread alive, I move that everyone who has responded so far should buy (at least) an associate membership in the NRA for one person they know who is not a member.

If any of the thread respondents are not a member of the NRA, then that's your first priority. Associate memberships are $10/year. Cheaper than a box of ammo.

I know many people are upset about the NRA for various reasons, but like with any vote, you don't play/vote, you can't complain. The NRA is the 800 pound gorilla in the room. Swelling its ranks before the administration tries to do anything anti-2A is one of the best ways to send a message en masse to our congresscritters.

Take one of the 'mushy middle' to the range and show them how much fun it is.

Anyone want to second this?

vzwnnj
April 14, 2010, 11:31 AM
I find it odd that the original poster has not replied once (unless my eyes are worse than i thought)...

someone just stirring the pot?

everyone should join the NRA...thats a good thing...the rest of it, I think was more for entertainment...just seeing the reponses

Robert
April 14, 2010, 11:54 AM
I called on other leftists/Democrats/liberals ther to join the NRA. We should all do this. It was a very good organization at one time, and we should get enough voting members to at least affect the political climate of the NRA, it not take it over.

I hope some of you will go to THR and check for my post in their activism forum, and maybe respond.

I KNOW there are other liberals there, and I'm hoping I won't get buried in RW horse****. but it has happened before....
(My name on gun sites is dogngun.)

thanks.

mark

Direct link to the thread. (http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x309911)

That is the OP's post from another site. I take offense at the labeling of THR as RW horse****. To advocate the taking over of the NRA by leftists and then ask for other liberals to come post here in my view is trolling. But that will be left to the mods to decide. As for "leftist" gun owners I would say that one can indeed support the Second Amendment and the ownership of firearms with out supporting other "right wing" ideas. Though I would rather classify my self, if I had to, as a Libertarian rather than "leftist". And "hard core socialist leftists" that support the 2nd only do so for themselves and people they agree with, not for all as the Constitution states.

What I do for the RKBA and other civil liberties
Try to get more liberals to join the NRA so we can take it over.
From the OP's profile. I must ask what possible good can that do? It has long been the strategy of leftist organizations to infiltrate a right wing group in order to effect a subversive, and in this case negative change. I can see no good in this group trying to take over a long established organization. Especially one that has a long history of trying to ban all firearms outright.

jimmyraythomason
April 14, 2010, 12:11 PM
I support recruiting new NRA members however I much prefer an NRA with 3 million members that are strong believers in the entire U.S.Constitution over a watered down counterproductive NRA with 6 million members. Quantity isn't all that's needed to fight liberal gungrabbers. The key is to STOP ELECTING liberal gungrabbers (at ALL levels of government)regardless of party affiliation.

Robert
April 14, 2010, 12:13 PM
The key is to STOP ELECTING liberal gungrabbers (at ALL levels of government)regardless of party affiliation.
Exactly

hso
April 14, 2010, 12:14 PM
There's a whole spectrum of political "identities" that people adopt while still supporting the individual's right to keep and bear arms. We keep reminding folks not to confuse the fact with being a 2A supporter with supporting any other group, party or ideology.

We have seen over and over again that such lazy thinking leads us to be caught unaware when so-called "conservative" or "right" or whatever label you want to attach individuals and politicians turn out to not support the individual's right to keep and bear arms or actively will oppose that individual right. The converse is also true when we don't do our homework and lump "left" or "progressive" or other "not like me" baggage on RKBA supporters.

I have plenty of "hippy", "liberal", "urban" 2A supporting friends who don't think the government should take away our rights to defend ourselves and know far too many antis that are "good church going conservatives" that just don't think we can be trusted with guns and only the government should have them.

The one banner we can all rally around is the pro2A banner.

jimmyraythomason
April 14, 2010, 12:23 PM
The one banner we can all rally around is the pro2A banner. This is true hso,however there are many groups that are "pro-gun" that I will in no way associate myself with. If a group (of any description) professes ONE of my rights but wants to deny me the rest of them I will in no way support them. Winston Churchill is reported as saying that he would join forces with the devil himself if it leads to the defeat of the Nazis. I am not willing to do that.

CoRoMo
April 14, 2010, 12:32 PM
There are way too many nuance levels of the term "pro-gun" anyway.

I also discriminate with whom I rally.

UpTheIrons
April 14, 2010, 02:09 PM
I support recruiting new NRA members however I much prefer an NRA with 3 million members that are strong believers in the entire U.S.Constitution over a watered down counterproductive NRA with 6 million members.

Unfortunately, our congresscritters will respond better/faster and be more afraid of a group of 6 million than they will of a group of 3 million.

For those who covet our votes, it is all about quantity over quality.

CoRoMo
April 14, 2010, 02:30 PM
But pack differently divided people into that 6 million, and you can't really call it one group.

MisterMike
April 14, 2010, 02:49 PM
It is a massive error to assume that one political party or another is our ally in protection of the Second Amendment. It is huge mistake to think that conservatives are our friends and "libtards" are our foes. That kind of talk here should stop, for all our benefit - it doesn't help and it alienates our friends and allies.

I agree with this 100%. The notion that there's any true ideological purity to either of the major parties' platforms is a fantasy. The best way to ensure that the cause prevails is to know the candidates' positions, actually vote for those whose policies you support (apparently a novel proposition to many), and then lobby vigorously for all those in office to support the RKBA viewpoint. We've gotten in the bad habit of thinking that merely complaining about politicians is enough to effect change.

blakeci
April 14, 2010, 02:50 PM
All I can say is that if you are liberal on 9/10 issues but you are a supporter of RKBA, that you are not a true progressive liberal, you are only 9/10 progressive.
Gun control is a central tenent of the progressive agenda. They believe it is the responsibilty of government to "protect" the people from themselves. That the government is the only one which knows better. Google "eugenics" and study what the progressives did in the early part of the 20th century and tell me if that is what you support. Don't think that just because the dictionary definition of progressive liberal sounds good, then that is what you are. Every single government which has disarmed its people was on the left, every single one. Does that not tell you something about the left's agenda?

TheGunFever
April 14, 2010, 03:20 PM
I find this entire thread incredibly fascinating. I would probably identify myself as an independent, but I was raised as a Democrat, and so the founding of many of my political viewpoints will intrisically be democratic in nature. But quite frankly, none of that matters in my opinion.

Politicians are representatives of the people, and as such will aim to impelment policies that are agreeable to their consituants. Honestly, I think that many politicians are not hot one way or another for gun control on a personal level, but because it is such a hot ticket item amungst the two parties, politicains take hard stands on it one way or another, typically democrats for gun control and republicans against.

But imagine if gun rights were heavily supported by both parties...

The long term solution to keeping ourselves armed is not electing the policitians that support our policies now (although that definitely helps), the long term solution comes from getting new members to join and be active advocates for our 2nd ammendment rights. And right now democrats and independents alike are a HUGELY untapped resource. I have personally taken a number of my democratic friends out on shooting trips, and everyone of them that leaves from there feels better and less scared about the idea of guns. A couple of them have ended up becoming owners themselves.

For me, one of the biggest hurdles to getting into guns in the first place was the fact that no one was trying to get me into them... and believe it or not, if you don't know someone who knows about guns, it can be tricky to get into things without being made to feel retarded all the time. Hell, at this point in my life I find myself acting in the same way twoards others trying to get into the sport, and I think that is what primarily needs to change. If the gun community was out there with open arms, actively trying to recruit new people to the sport from mainstream sources, this could alleviate a lot of the future problem. I don't want to generalize, and I know that everyones experience entering into the gun community has been a little different, but for me I never got the feeling that I was being welcomed with open arms. More like I was invading a private club that I had no business belonging to... and I know that I have not been the only person to feel that way.

That is the attitude that has to change.

Chemistry Guy
April 14, 2010, 03:31 PM
I reject the idea of a "pure" conservative or liberal. The opposite views on the varied social and economic issues championed by democrats and republicans are are arbitrarily polarized in order maximize political power. Also, the liberal and conservative positions are historically fleeting. The republican agenda of today looks a lot like the democratic agenda 50 years ago. Remember when democrats were anti-nuclear power? Times and demographics change, and politics change to scrounge for votes.

The conservative and liberal labels mean very different things in different parts of the country. For example, many hispanic families are socially very conservative, but fiscally liberal. Much of the New York jewish population is the opposite, fiscally conservative but socially liberal. In Alaska, you will find some of the biggest treehugging environmentalists that are also conservative christians. I think the OP's problem with the NRA is that he likes the RKBA agenda, but feels like the resources of the organization are being hijacked in order to promote the entire conservative agenda.

To a small extent, I understand his frustration. Why does my NRA dues go to fund the political careers of a politician that thinks science is the work of the devil, wants to blow the tops off of the mountains where I hike, deny civil rights to my neighbors(gays), eliminate funding for research that could save my relative, and promote an evangelical agenda that would be considered regressive in the 18th century? I understand it is because the conservative politicians generally support gun rights, but what makes gun rights so special that that issue alone should determine what direction the country should go? If my region of the country had the demographics to support a moderate libertarian that is fiscally conservative, environmentally liberal, and socially libertarian they would get every dollar of my political support. As it is, I have to suck it up and settle for the lesser of the many evils.

Robert
April 14, 2010, 03:41 PM
I understand the point you are trying to make but I would not drag religion into this as that is a sure way to get a thread locked. Let us stick to the topic of the RKBA.

mljdeckard
April 14, 2010, 03:54 PM
Are our gun rights guaranteed by one party or the other? Of course not. Is one MUCH MORE LIKELY THAN THE OTHER to work against new gun legislation and nominate gun friendly judges? ABSOLUTELY.

UpTheIrons
April 14, 2010, 04:21 PM
But pack differently divided people into that 6 million, and you can't really call it one group.

Right. But no one has ever said the Tea Party movement is monolithic, and they've gotten a whole lot of attention. Not all good, and they haven't been totally effective, but there are congresspeople who are running scared because of them - and not because of the violence threats, either.

Sen. Spineless from the great state of Iwannabereelected thinks that he might want to vote for the "sensible" gun control law offered by his colleague from the state of Wehateallguns, however, when his office is notified that the NRA (which has a large number of members in his state) is about to start running ads against him, he rethinks his position. Not because the NRA is monolithic (which it surely ain't), but because of the numbers and what it might mean for his reelection chances.

You'd likely be surprised how few calls it takes to get an elected official to reconsider a possible vote (except for one where the fix is in). I was surprised, because it was a lot lower than I thought, even though I don't remember what it was now.

BTW, I'm reupping my NRA membership this year with at least a 5 year membership so that I can vote on the Board of Directors. There was at least one on the slate for this year who was totally unacceptable, yet people paraded him around like he was a great friend of the 2A, even though he doesn't think civilians need any rifle magazines over a 5-round capacity.

It isn't an ideal situation, but we've got to start somewhere. Local and state elections are great, but we 2A types have got to get a louder voice, and a more positive national image in front of the agnostics on this issue.

Zoogster
April 14, 2010, 05:27 PM
I KNOW that at least 50% of all gun owners in the US are liberals, and we have to make our voices heard.

From what I have learned more people grow up with firearms a part of their normal culture when they are from more rural areas.
Rural areas have places to hunt, some to casually shoot without fees, and people who have more land to safely shoot on.
They also have minimal law enforcement, consisting of a Sheriff and some deputies many places.
These areas tend to be more Republican.


While the more urban areas tend to have few places to shoot, and most of them cost money to rent a stall. No hunting without travel outside the area.
They have massive law enforcement, with many of their leaders supporting restrictions and anti-gun measures.
These areas tend to be more Democrat.


That alone makes urban environments more anti-gun, and with a severely diminished recreational firearm community.
Much more of the left live in urban environments.


Most minorities belong to the left. Where people like Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson rally them to pass or support new gun control every time a gang member shoots someone else. Demonizing guns and access to guns among their communities. Gun ownership tends to be much lower and more stigmatized in minority areas.


More women belong to the left as well, and fewer women are into firearms. Many women do learn to appreciate firearms, and considering it is one of the biggest ways to even the odds against more powerful attackers it makes a lot of sense. But most women are not into firearms, especially for recreation. Shooting sports remain a predominantly male environment.

Many other studies have shown men and women naturally need different things to thrive. Girls in schools that have prohibited all aggressive interaction or expression do very well. Boys with the same restrictions have been shown to be lacking in some necessary development, leaving them more immature and less successful.
Pretend gun play often is a component of the interaction.
Popular girl dolls emulate dating, fashion, marriage, and motherhood.
Popular boy "dolls" or action figures tend to emulate warfare, fighting, and weapons.
Men tend to be more into over the top action films as adults, with gun play and violence as a main theme.
Women are more into "chick flicks" where finding Mr right, dating, or marriage are prime themes.
It would seem quite obvious that men are more likely to purchase firearms than women.
Women can learn the importance of having a firearm and the benefits it gives, but are not as likely to be drawn to ownership on their own. In fact most women I know who have firearms were pushed in that direction by a male friend who was set on getting them interested in firearms.

More women are Democrats than men:
http://www.gallup.com/poll/120839/women-likely-democrats-regardless-age.aspx
http://sas-origin.onstreammedia.com/origin/gallupinc/GallupSpaces/Production/Cms/POLL/ut7dy-uwrumn_kf_klgmaq.gif

More women vote than men, and have since the 1980.


Rutgers:

In every presidential election since 1980, the proportion [of] female adults who voted has exceeded the proportion of made adults who voted.

In examining previous presidential election years prior to 2008, the numbers make this point clear. Of the total voting age population:

* In 2004, 60.1% of women and 56.3% of men voted.
That's 67.3 million women and 58.5 million men - a difference of 8.8 million.
* In 2000, 56.2% of women and 53.1% of men voted.
That's 59.3 million women and 51.5 million men - a difference of 7.8 million.
* In 1996, 55.5% of women and 52.8% of men voted.
That's 56.1 million women amd 48.9 million men - a difference of 7.2 million.

So Women are both more likely to be Democrat, and more likely to vote, and less likely to be into firearms than males.


More lower income people are also Democrats than Republicans.
There is more prohibited people in low income groups, people who because of some offense can not legally own a gun anyways, but do not lose their right to vote, or can easily regain it.


More young people, especially those in college are Democrats than Republicans. But this shifts once they get older, get jobs, pay off loans and want to keep more of what they earn.
While they have almost nothing, they favor the party that offers more benefits and handouts to those in need.
When they have something to take they tend to favor the party that allows them to keep more of it.
But there tends to always be more young people than old in any growing population.




What all of this means is that Regardless of which party you favor there is many more elements in the Democratic party that cause them to be less favorable to gun rights.
There is antis and pro-gun people in both parties, but there is a significant slant.
I am certainly in favor of making both parties as pro-gun as possible so gun rights are not in jeopardy when one side or the other is in power.

benEzra
April 14, 2010, 05:44 PM
Every single government which has disarmed its people was on the left, every single one. Does that not tell you something about the left's agenda?
The UK and Australian gun bans were perpetrated by their respective conservative parties, as were quite a few state-level gun restrictions here (including California's Mulford Act, and a few others I could name). The Brady Campaign was founded by a conservative and is run by a center-right former politician.

Gun ownership, pro or anti, isn't a facet of "true liberalism" at all. It is, however, an integral part of the *communitarian* philosophy, and those who seek to understand the Democratic obsession with gun prohibition in the 1990's through 2004 need to understand the communitarian-vs-liberal civil war that has raged in the Democratic party since the late 1980's. Not to mention that a great many people whom I would describe as communitarian are Republicans, and one of them (Romney) has a pretty good shot at your nomination in 2012.

Gun control is a central tenent of the progressive agenda. They believe it is the responsibilty of government to "protect" the people from themselves. That the government is the only one which knows better. Google "eugenics" and study what the progressives did in the early part of the 20th century and tell me if that is what you support. Don't think that just because the dictionary definition of progressive liberal sounds good, then that is what you are.
You are confusing centrist "Third Way" communitarianism with individualist liberalism. There is a profound split in the Democratic party between center-left communitarians (Dianne Feinstein, Bill Clinton, Charles Schumer) and ACLU-sympathizing liberals. The communitarians view Authority as the savior of humanity from itself, and tend to view one's responsibilities as more important than one's rights, in the mold of Amitai Etzioni.

Communitarians are not liberals, and actually span the political spectrum from center-left (Clinton, Feinstein) to center-right (Romney, Bill Bennett), with a few outliers on both the far left (Barbara Boxer) and far right (Ralph Reed). What unites them, in practice, is the idea that individuals need authority figures over them to protect them from making bad life choices, although left-leaning and right-leaning communitarians may disagree about which choices should be taken away for the "greater good" (guns, pornography, cannabis, homeschooling, privacy, nontraditional sexual relationships).

If you throw gun-owning, pro-RKBA liberals and centrists (including me) out of the tent, you will have nothing left but conservative gun owners, a stark minority compared to the population at large. Only about half of Republicans own guns, and those who do tend to lean libertarian; while there are exceptions, neither Republican-leaning business interests nor the Religious Right are particularly pro-gun (the latter I can vouch for from personal experience).

It is true that Democrats and independents own guns at a somewhat lower rate than Republicans---largely a function of demographics---but given that there are more Dems and independents combined than Republicans, the total number of gun owners on each side of that equation are similar. If you use media stereotypes to throw non-conservative RKBA advocates like me out of the tent, you drive a wedge right through the middle of the gun-rights movement.

Gun owners who believe in a strong Second Amendment need to stand together against the prohibitionists, regardless of whether our other views lean toward James Dobson or (in my case) the ACLU. I'll agree to disagree on the other issues, but on the gun issue, we stand together. And I think you'll find that those of us in the center or left-of-center are more effective at influencing others who are left-of-center toward a more pro-gun position.

Here's the plain truth: Gun ownership and support for RKBA is not a left versus right issue. It is an authority vs. freedom issue. And as Benjamin Franklin famously said, "If we do not all stand together, we will surely all hang separately."

Zoogster
April 14, 2010, 05:57 PM
A good post BenEzra, and things I have noticed in both parties.

There is groups in both parties that believe in a utopia of one sort or another maintained by absolute authoritarian practices. They tend to not care for gun rights and individual freedoms that run contrary to absolute centralized authority.

There is still far more gun rights supporters on the right currently, and I explained why in my previous post. But dangerous antis in both parties, and antis that often do quiet well in their respective parties. Which we need to stop.

Art Eatman
April 14, 2010, 07:36 PM
Seems to be a serious shortage of planning, and a whole bunch of politcs and philosophical viewpoints.

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